Do we dream less as we get older?

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby iambiguous » Sat May 29, 2021 8:03 pm

Maia wrote: The idea that some massive geo-magnetic storm could knock out all electrical equipment on earth is a scary one indeed, and very much a post-apocalyptic sort of scenario. For a start off, almost all of the money in the world would suddenly disappear, since it only exists as numbers recorded electronically somewhere. Things with actual intrinsic usefulness would become valuable in their own right again, and would be used for bartering. And people with useful skills would be able to exchange them for food and other necessities. Doesn't actually sound too bad, does it? Nature has a way of correcting any inbalances, and there is no doubt that modern human civilisation is grossly unbalanced, in so many ways.


The possibilities are practically endless. And that's just from one source. There are others: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019 ... gamma-rays

Here of course nature is pretty much "beyond our control". And it always prompts the question: Why? Is there something or someone "behind" nature that is able to provide us with meaning and purpose in regard to such events. Or is it all just but one more manifestation of a "brute facticity" embedded for no comprehendible reason in a cosmos that just is what it is.

I just recently watched a documentary on the possibility of a super-volcano eruption at Yellowstone National Park. Some argue that it is now long overdue. Uh-oh?

Maia wrote: There are so many injustices in society that would be really easy to solve, with the right political will. Homelessness, for example. It seems to have been around for centuries, and I suppose a lot of people thought that there was nothing that could be done about it. But it turned out that there was. At the beginning of the pandemic, when everyone was ordered to stay in their homes until further notice, the government decided that homeless people needed a place to stay too, so it simply provided the resources to pay for it. Almost all homeless people are now in temporary accomodation. I very much hope that once the pandemic is declared to be over, it will be politically impossible to turf them all out onto the streets again, and so something more permanent will have to be arranged. At the same time, I hope that more resources are given to helping those who became homeless through things like drug addiction, which is a big cause of it. But homelessness is just one factor among many, and no lasting solution will be found without tackling everything at the same time, root and branch. Everyone in society needs to be given the opportunity to find their ideal role, and to realise that they are all part of a harmonious whole, where every individual has responsibility for everyone else.


I could not have said it better. But politics can be brutal. Those up and down ideological spectrum all insisting that the only solutions are their solutions. But I think that the primary focus has to be on the children. You can argue back and forth about "individual responsibility" and "society", but the kids are always innocent. They should always be the priority in my view. I'm still no less "fractured and fragmented" when it comes figuring out how to actually bring it all about, but I'd make it all about the children first if were up to me. All kids should at least have the opportunity to make the most of their lives.

Maia wrote: Posting about Paganism in blindness related groups is one thing (and I've certainly done that over the years), but trying to pursuade people to come along to rituals or events, when they wouldn't normally have considered doing so, is quite another. Paganism is very much a matter of a personal calling, and I wouldn't want anyone to be there who didn't really want to be there. Arie's article was interesting because I could relate to so much of what she was saying, especially from my earlier days in Wicca, but I've never felt any need to have other blind people around when I go to such events. I suppose it's a question of self-confidence, but that's something that I've never really had any problems with. I think that a lack of self-confidence is often bound up with depression, which is something I'm very lucky to have never suffered from. Staying active is the key to that though, I'm sure.


Yes, there's no getting around that. All you can do is to note the things that your own beliefs have provided in the way of experiences that keep you active. And how those activities allow you to feel so much more intertwined in nature, providing you in turn with a connection to something that is understood by you to be a so much more inclusive sense of reality. Then it will often come down to sheer luck, serendipity, fate or whatever you want to call it when you do find someone that is so much more like you than others. For me, the equivalent of another Supannika.

Still, that can only mean different things to different people. But, sure, let me know how your own life unfolds in this regard.

Arie has a website: http://www.ariefarnam.com/

Perhaps you might consider contacting her and sharing experiences. She has an option to click on for just that purpose: http://www.ariefarnam.com/contact

Maia wrote: Yes, it's always interesting how people change and evolve over the years. My own gradual disillusionment with Wicca was not a sudden realisation, but a slow process. And a complicating factor was the fact that by the time I realised this, I had already made good friends in the Wiccan group, who I didn't want to hurt by leaving. In the end I needn't have worried about that, though, as Pagans tend to be pretty laid back about such things, and I've remained friends with them even after leaving.


Again, you seem to have found that oh so crucial frame of mind that for all practical purposes has allowed you to change over the years, but not in a way that led to ruptured friendships and relationships. And I think in part that comes from being tolerant of shifting values in others. And they being tolerant of changes in your own life.

Maia wrote: You asked me to tell you of any interesting dreams I have. Well, I had one last night. I was walking home, that is, to my parents' house, as if I still lived there. Before I got there I passed a house on the corner where a friend of mine lived when I was little, though in fact, she hasn't done so for many years. And I suddenly felt a huge blast of negative energy coming from it. I carried on and went into my house, going straight upstairs to my bedroom. Very shortly afterwards I heard the front door opening, keys in lock, and so on. I called down to ask who it was, and my Mom called back up to say it was her. And that's basically it. What it means, I have no idea. Like all dreams, the most memorable thing about it is its emotional content, which also happens to be the thing that's most difficult to describe.


You should run this by your Mom to get her reaction.

What about your friend might have caused this blast of negative energy? Or was it the house itself? Was it an ominous sensation or something less explicable? Or maybe it was all just a way of reminding you that you have a family you can turn to in order to keep all the negative stuff at bay.

Also, was it a recurring dream? Those are the ones that always mean the most to me.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby iambiguous » Sun May 30, 2021 3:07 am

dreamy instrumentals:

Roy Buchanan "Hidden" https://youtu.be/zoo8qmzL6A0
Spirit "Taurus" https://youtu.be/gFHLO_2_THg
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby Maia » Sun May 30, 2021 12:06 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Maia wrote: The idea that some massive geo-magnetic storm could knock out all electrical equipment on earth is a scary one indeed, and very much a post-apocalyptic sort of scenario. For a start off, almost all of the money in the world would suddenly disappear, since it only exists as numbers recorded electronically somewhere. Things with actual intrinsic usefulness would become valuable in their own right again, and would be used for bartering. And people with useful skills would be able to exchange them for food and other necessities. Doesn't actually sound too bad, does it? Nature has a way of correcting any inbalances, and there is no doubt that modern human civilisation is grossly unbalanced, in so many ways.


The possibilities are practically endless. And that's just from one source. There are others: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019 ... gamma-rays

Here of course nature is pretty much "beyond our control". And it always prompts the question: Why? Is there something or someone "behind" nature that is able to provide us with meaning and purpose in regard to such events. Or is it all just but one more manifestation of a "brute facticity" embedded for no comprehendible reason in a cosmos that just is what it is.

I just recently watched a documentary on the possibility of a super-volcano eruption at Yellowstone National Park. Some argue that it is now long overdue. Uh-oh?

Maia wrote: There are so many injustices in society that would be really easy to solve, with the right political will. Homelessness, for example. It seems to have been around for centuries, and I suppose a lot of people thought that there was nothing that could be done about it. But it turned out that there was. At the beginning of the pandemic, when everyone was ordered to stay in their homes until further notice, the government decided that homeless people needed a place to stay too, so it simply provided the resources to pay for it. Almost all homeless people are now in temporary accomodation. I very much hope that once the pandemic is declared to be over, it will be politically impossible to turf them all out onto the streets again, and so something more permanent will have to be arranged. At the same time, I hope that more resources are given to helping those who became homeless through things like drug addiction, which is a big cause of it. But homelessness is just one factor among many, and no lasting solution will be found without tackling everything at the same time, root and branch. Everyone in society needs to be given the opportunity to find their ideal role, and to realise that they are all part of a harmonious whole, where every individual has responsibility for everyone else.


I could not have said it better. But politics can be brutal. Those up and down ideological spectrum all insisting that the only solutions are their solutions. But I think that the primary focus has to be on the children. You can argue back and forth about "individual responsibility" and "society", but the kids are always innocent. They should always be the priority in my view. I'm still no less "fractured and fragmented" when it comes figuring out how to actually bring it all about, but I'd make it all about the children first if were up to me. All kids should at least have the opportunity to make the most of their lives.

Maia wrote: Posting about Paganism in blindness related groups is one thing (and I've certainly done that over the years), but trying to pursuade people to come along to rituals or events, when they wouldn't normally have considered doing so, is quite another. Paganism is very much a matter of a personal calling, and I wouldn't want anyone to be there who didn't really want to be there. Arie's article was interesting because I could relate to so much of what she was saying, especially from my earlier days in Wicca, but I've never felt any need to have other blind people around when I go to such events. I suppose it's a question of self-confidence, but that's something that I've never really had any problems with. I think that a lack of self-confidence is often bound up with depression, which is something I'm very lucky to have never suffered from. Staying active is the key to that though, I'm sure.


Yes, there's no getting around that. All you can do is to note the things that your own beliefs have provided in the way of experiences that keep you active. And how those activities allow you to feel so much more intertwined in nature, providing you in turn with a connection to something that is understood by you to be a so much more inclusive sense of reality. Then it will often come down to sheer luck, serendipity, fate or whatever you want to call it when you do find someone that is so much more like you than others. For me, the equivalent of another Supannika.

Still, that can only mean different things to different people. But, sure, let me know how your own life unfolds in this regard.

Arie has a website: http://www.ariefarnam.com/

Perhaps you might consider contacting her and sharing experiences. She has an option to click on for just that purpose: http://www.ariefarnam.com/contact

Maia wrote: Yes, it's always interesting how people change and evolve over the years. My own gradual disillusionment with Wicca was not a sudden realisation, but a slow process. And a complicating factor was the fact that by the time I realised this, I had already made good friends in the Wiccan group, who I didn't want to hurt by leaving. In the end I needn't have worried about that, though, as Pagans tend to be pretty laid back about such things, and I've remained friends with them even after leaving.


Again, you seem to have found that oh so crucial frame of mind that for all practical purposes has allowed you to change over the years, but not in a way that led to ruptured friendships and relationships. And I think in part that comes from being tolerant of shifting values in others. And they being tolerant of changes in your own life.

Maia wrote: You asked me to tell you of any interesting dreams I have. Well, I had one last night. I was walking home, that is, to my parents' house, as if I still lived there. Before I got there I passed a house on the corner where a friend of mine lived when I was little, though in fact, she hasn't done so for many years. And I suddenly felt a huge blast of negative energy coming from it. I carried on and went into my house, going straight upstairs to my bedroom. Very shortly afterwards I heard the front door opening, keys in lock, and so on. I called down to ask who it was, and my Mom called back up to say it was her. And that's basically it. What it means, I have no idea. Like all dreams, the most memorable thing about it is its emotional content, which also happens to be the thing that's most difficult to describe.


You should run this by your Mom to get her reaction.

What about your friend might have caused this blast of negative energy? Or was it the house itself? Was it an ominous sensation or something less explicable? Or maybe it was all just a way of reminding you that you have a family you can turn to in order to keep all the negative stuff at bay.

Also, was it a recurring dream? Those are the ones that always mean the most to me.


Yep, there's no doubt about it, we're living in a dangerous universe and could be wiped out at any moment. But I don't think there's someone or something "behind" nature, providing meaning and purpose, because that role is taken by nature itself.

I fully agree about focusing on children, and the way to do it is surely provide an education that finds and brings out everyone's potential, and nurtures their skills, so as to prepare them for their role in the adult world. And speaking from experience, I would definitely recommend the sort of intensive, all round education that I had, and this should be provided to everyone. Individual responsibility is certainly important though, because no society can function without it. Individual resonsibility not only for your own life and happiness, but for everyone else's too, and this is one of the things that the educational system should instill in everyone.

Perhaps my soulmate is out there somewhere, who knows? What I do know is that if I ever meet him, it will be sudden, and happen in completely unexpected circumstances. So all I can do is go with the flow and leave it in the hands of fate. In any case, as I mentioned before, all that will have to wait another three and a half years.

Yes, I had a read of Arie's website. She seems to be quite a prolific writer on all sorts of Pagan and other subjects, and has written a whole series of novels too. I don't have any pressing need to contact her at the moment, but if that changes, I will certainly do so.

The blast of negative energy wasn't from my friend, I know that much. It seemed to be from the house itself. More malevolent than ominous, I would say. The dream itself wasn't a repeat of a previous one, but the emotional signature of it was, and that's the important bit. And yes, reminding me that I have a family to turn to is indeed a good explanation for it.
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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby iambiguous » Sun May 30, 2021 7:10 pm

Maia wrote:Yep, there's no doubt about it, we're living in a dangerous universe and could be wiped out at any moment. But I don't think there's someone or something "behind" nature, providing meaning and purpose, because that role is taken by nature itself.


Perhaps captured best in a song by Iris DeMent: https://youtu.be/0gQVS2fCsek

"Everybody is a wonderin' what and where they all came from
Everybody is a worryin' 'bout where
They're gonna go when the whole thing's done
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me
I think I'll just let the mystery be

Some say once you're gone you're gone forever
And some say you're gonna come back
Some say you rest in the arms of
The Saviour if in sinful ways you lack
Some say that they're comin' back in a
Garden, bunch of carrots and little sweet peas
I think I'll just let the mystery be

Everybody is a wonderin' what and where they all came from
Everybody is a worryin' 'bout where
They're gonna go when the whole thing's done
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me
I think I'll just let the mystery be

Some say they're goin' to a place called
Glory and I ain't saying it ain't a fact
But I've heard that I'm on the road to
Purgatory and I don't like the sound of that
Well, I believe in love and I live my life accordingly
But I choose to let the mystery be

Everybody is a wonderin' what and where they all came from
Everybody is a worryin' 'bout where
They're gonna go when the whole thing's done
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me
I think I'll just let the mystery be
I think I'll just let the mystery be"

Then it's all about where you are now in your life and what you have managed to conclude about it yourself. Then all those corners you'll go around down the road and all the new experiences that may or may not change it.

Maia wrote:I fully agree about focusing on children, and the way to do it is surely provide an education that finds and brings out everyone's potential, and nurtures their skills, so as to prepare them for their role in the adult world. And speaking from experience, I would definitely recommend the sort of intensive, all round education that I had, and this should be provided to everyone. Individual responsibility is certainly important though, because no society can function without it. Individual resonsibility not only for your own life and happiness, but for everyone else's too, and this is one of the things that the educational system should instill in everyone.


All I ask for myself is an educational system that instills in children the capacity to think critically. To not just take for granted what they are taught about the world around them but to question the assumptions that underlie those in power. Then to choose not "might makes right" or "right makes might" but "moderation negotiation and compromise" as [perhaps] "the best of all possible world". But to ever let the focus be on the children.

Maia wrote: Perhaps my soulmate is out there somewhere, who knows? What I do know is that if I ever meet him, it will be sudden, and happen in completely unexpected circumstances. So all I can do is go with the flow and leave it in the hands of fate. In any case, as I mentioned before, all that will have to wait another three and a half years.


Yes, this is all shrouded in the mystery of human interactions. It reminds me of the character Jamie in Spike Lee's "She's Gotta Have It":

"Jamie [to the camera]: I believe there is only one person, one person in this world, who was meant to be your soulmate, your lifelong companion. The irony is rarely do these two people hook up. They just wander about aimlessly. But if you are lucky, and you do find that person, you can't blow it. Nola was that person."

I bumped into my own soulmate, Supannika, given a purely adventitious set of circumstances. You just never know. After all, the woman right next door to me might be very much like her.

On the other hand, if you actually make an attempt to find someone it's got to increase your odds.

Maia wrote: Yes, I had a read of Arie's website. She seems to be quite a prolific writer on all sorts of Pagan and other subjects, and has written a whole series of novels too. I don't have any pressing need to contact her at the moment, but if that changes, I will certainly do so.


Well, if you ever do, let me know what unfolds. And, given all of the things that you do share in common, I hope someday that you do. Given my own set of circumstances, I couldn't resist the opportunity myself.

Maia wrote: The blast of negative energy wasn't from my friend, I know that much. It seemed to be from the house itself. More malevolent than ominous, I would say. The dream itself wasn't a repeat of a previous one, but the emotional signature of it was, and that's the important bit. And yes, reminding me that I have a family to turn to is indeed a good explanation for it.


Dreams will always be mysterious. Not unlike the waking world itself.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby iambiguous » Mon May 31, 2021 2:34 am

The Innocence Mission "You Chase the Light" https://youtu.be/tqxaBAR5Jtw
The Innocence Mission "Beginning The World" https://youtu.be/6ChASc5bTrI
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby Maia » Mon May 31, 2021 11:21 am

iambiguous wrote:
Maia wrote:Yep, there's no doubt about it, we're living in a dangerous universe and could be wiped out at any moment. But I don't think there's someone or something "behind" nature, providing meaning and purpose, because that role is taken by nature itself.


Perhaps captured best in a song by Iris DeMent: https://youtu.be/0gQVS2fCsek

"Everybody is a wonderin' what and where they all came from
Everybody is a worryin' 'bout where
They're gonna go when the whole thing's done
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me
I think I'll just let the mystery be

Some say once you're gone you're gone forever
And some say you're gonna come back
Some say you rest in the arms of
The Saviour if in sinful ways you lack
Some say that they're comin' back in a
Garden, bunch of carrots and little sweet peas
I think I'll just let the mystery be

Everybody is a wonderin' what and where they all came from
Everybody is a worryin' 'bout where
They're gonna go when the whole thing's done
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me
I think I'll just let the mystery be

Some say they're goin' to a place called
Glory and I ain't saying it ain't a fact
But I've heard that I'm on the road to
Purgatory and I don't like the sound of that
Well, I believe in love and I live my life accordingly
But I choose to let the mystery be

Everybody is a wonderin' what and where they all came from
Everybody is a worryin' 'bout where
They're gonna go when the whole thing's done
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me
I think I'll just let the mystery be
I think I'll just let the mystery be"

Then it's all about where you are now in your life and what you have managed to conclude about it yourself. Then all those corners you'll go around down the road and all the new experiences that may or may not change it.

Maia wrote:I fully agree about focusing on children, and the way to do it is surely provide an education that finds and brings out everyone's potential, and nurtures their skills, so as to prepare them for their role in the adult world. And speaking from experience, I would definitely recommend the sort of intensive, all round education that I had, and this should be provided to everyone. Individual responsibility is certainly important though, because no society can function without it. Individual resonsibility not only for your own life and happiness, but for everyone else's too, and this is one of the things that the educational system should instill in everyone.


All I ask for myself is an educational system that instills in children the capacity to think critically. To not just take for granted what they are taught about the world around them but to question the assumptions that underlie those in power. Then to choose not "might makes right" or "right makes might" but "moderation negotiation and compromise" as [perhaps] "the best of all possible world". But to ever let the focus be on the children.

Maia wrote: Perhaps my soulmate is out there somewhere, who knows? What I do know is that if I ever meet him, it will be sudden, and happen in completely unexpected circumstances. So all I can do is go with the flow and leave it in the hands of fate. In any case, as I mentioned before, all that will have to wait another three and a half years.


Yes, this is all shrouded in the mystery of human interactions. It reminds me of the character Jamie in Spike Lee's "She's Gotta Have It":

"Jamie [to the camera]: I believe there is only one person, one person in this world, who was meant to be your soulmate, your lifelong companion. The irony is rarely do these two people hook up. They just wander about aimlessly. But if you are lucky, and you do find that person, you can't blow it. Nola was that person."

I bumped into my own soulmate, Supannika, given a purely adventitious set of circumstances. You just never know. After all, the woman right next door to me might be very much like her.

On the other hand, if you actually make an attempt to find someone it's got to increase your odds.

Maia wrote: Yes, I had a read of Arie's website. She seems to be quite a prolific writer on all sorts of Pagan and other subjects, and has written a whole series of novels too. I don't have any pressing need to contact her at the moment, but if that changes, I will certainly do so.


Well, if you ever do, let me know what unfolds. And, given all of the things that you do share in common, I hope someday that you do. Given my own set of circumstances, I couldn't resist the opportunity myself.

Maia wrote: The blast of negative energy wasn't from my friend, I know that much. It seemed to be from the house itself. More malevolent than ominous, I would say. The dream itself wasn't a repeat of a previous one, but the emotional signature of it was, and that's the important bit. And yes, reminding me that I have a family to turn to is indeed a good explanation for it.


Dreams will always be mysterious. Not unlike the waking world itself.


All good stuff. Anyway, thank you for a most interesting chat, but I think it has now reached a natural conclusion. So I'll end with another classic from the Moody Blues, Eyes of a Child.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVBfsJ7SoxI

With the eyes of a child, you must come out and see
That your world's spinning round and through life you will be
A small part, of a hope, of a love that exists
In the eyes of a child you will see
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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby iambiguous » Mon May 31, 2021 6:06 pm

Maia wrote:All good stuff. Anyway, thank you for a most interesting chat, but I think it has now reached a natural conclusion. So I'll end with another classic from the Moody Blues, Eyes of a Child.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVBfsJ7SoxI

With the eyes of a child, you must come out and see
That your world's spinning round and through life you will be
A small part, of a hope, of a love that exists
In the eyes of a child you will see


Well, truth be told, this isn't unexpected. I have my own suspicions as to what you might mean by a "natural conclusion" but since you invited me to stay in touch through our email exchange perhaps we can explore that there.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby iambiguous » Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:01 am

Vangelis & Irene Papas "Menousis" https://youtu.be/3m_D-6SkfBw
Vangelis & Irene Papas "Lamento" https://youtu.be/M9uo-HKiIMw
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby iambiguous » Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:05 am

He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby iambiguous » Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:37 pm

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... eir-dreams

"But what about those who have been blind since birth, and thus have no visual memories at all?

'When a blind man is asked if he dreams the answer is immediate: 'Yes!' But if we ask him if he sees anything in the dream, the answer is always doubtful because he does not know what it is to see. Even if there were images and colours in his brain during the dream, how could he recognize them? There is, therefore, no direct way, through the dream reports, to evaluate the presence of visual activation in the dream of congenitally blind subjects.' —Bértolo, Mestre, Barrio, & Antona, 2017

"Because the researchers felt it impossible to know for sure the visual quality of imagery based on dream reports, they decided to additionally study the eye movements during dreams of congenitally blind subjects. Twenty adult subjects were recruited for the study, including 10 congenitally blind and 10 sighted subjects. All of the subjects underwent two consecutive nights of polysomnographic recordings at home, with several awakenings for dream recall.

"The initial results found that the frequency of dream recall did not differ between the two groups, with an average of 60 percent dream recall reported following REM sleep awakenings.

"The dream reports of the blind subjects were reported as perceptually vivid and contained reference to visual, tactile, auditory and kinesthetic sensation. There was no difference between the two groups in the vividness of the dreams or even in the quantity of visual content reported.

"Nevertheless, the blind subjects had fewer rapid eye movements than the sighted subjects, although they did have eye movements, and these eye movements did correlate with visual dream recall. The authors argue that, “The fact that blind subjects present [rapid eye movements] and that these are correlated with visual dream recall is another result supporting our argument that they do activate visual areas during dream, being able to generate their own visual imagery."


Then it gets even more problematic:

"Schöpf et al. (2014) conducted a study comparing in utero eye movements to neural activity using fMRI data acquired from seven fetuses. During the study, fetal eye movements were recorded and corresponded with fMRI data. Results showed that already in utero, fetal eye movements correspond with activity in visual and frontal cerebral areas. This suggests that the human visual system is active even prior to birth.

The authors thus argue that, '…if fetuses can dream, presumably with visual imagery, without ever having visual experience, who’s to say the same cannot happen with blind subjects? Therefore, we propose that our results support the hypothesis that congenitally blind [rapid eye movements] during dreams…are able to generate visual imagery without visual experience.'"


Again, this "technical" assessment still doesn't get me closer to understanding what it means to dream about a world you have never seen...but have touched, heard, tasted, smelled. From my sighted frame of mind vision is the sense that ties all the other senses together into a "reality".

Then the equally mysterious "sixth sense". That visceral/intuitive reaction to the world around us that we may or may not be able to capture in words.

Finally, the manner in which "being blind" can pertain to "conditions" having nothing to do with sight at all.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby iambiguous » Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:04 pm

Nick Drake "Riverman" https://youtu.be/idcaRTg4-fM
Tim Buckley "Song to the Siren" https://youtu.be/b49YfsjXw5E
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby iambiguous » Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:00 pm

What's frustrating here is that even given internet searches attempts to understand the dreams of those who have never seen the world yields, well, practically nothing. Google "dreams described by those born blind from birth" and you get this: https://www.google.com/search?q=dreams+ ... VkQ4dUDCBI

And while Maia made the attempt to explain her dreams to me, what would interest me is the descriptions of many others who are also blind from birth. How would they describe their dreams? Might not someone finally put into words a description that begins to make such dreams more effable to me?

In part because I have never really thought about congenital blindness before...and yet it fits into how I construe human identity as rooted in all of the existential variables that predispose us to think about the world around us as unique, one of a kind individuals.

And in part because dreams themselves have always fascinated me. The way they fit into my understanding of determinism, the way they connect the conscious world to our subconscious/unconscious reactions to it. How dreams can even exist at all.

So basically it is dreams themselves that I will explore on this thread.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby iambiguous » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:39 pm

Silly Wizard "If I was a Blackbird" https://youtu.be/D5okd4hbwh8
Crash Test Dummies "Superman's Song" https://youtu.be/2VuZqi6EWa8
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby Maia » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:24 pm

iambiguous wrote:What's frustrating here is that even given internet searches attempts to understand the dreams of those who have never seen the world yields, well, practically nothing. Google "dreams described by those born blind from birth" and you get this: https://www.google.com/search?q=dreams+ ... VkQ4dUDCBI

And while Maia made the attempt to explain her dreams to me, what would interest me is the descriptions of many others who are also blind from birth. How would they describe their dreams? Might not someone finally put into words a description that begins to make such dreams more effable to me?

In part because I have never really thought about congenital blindness before...and yet it fits into how I construe human identity as rooted in all of the existential variables that predispose us to think about the world around us as unique, one of a kind individuals.

And in part because dreams themselves have always fascinated me. The way they fit into my understanding of determinism, the way they connect the conscious world to our subconscious/unconscious reactions to it. How dreams can even exist at all.

So basically it is dreams themselves that I will explore on this thread.


If you can think of any precise and specific questions about how I dream, or indeed about anything else to do with perceptions, then I'm more than happy to try and answer.

What I don't want to do is keep going over the same old ground. Boring is the very last thing I want to be!
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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby iambiguous » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:43 pm

Maia wrote:If you can think of any precise and specific questions about how I dream, or indeed about anything else to do with perceptions, then I'm more than happy to try and answer.


I don't think of it as an exchange of questions and answers. In regard to dreaming, the gap between those sighted from birth and those blind from birth may well be too wide for that sort of thing.

Instead, from my frame of mind, it seems it can only come down to those sighted like me hearing as many different descriptions of the dreams experienced by those blind from birth as possible. Different people attempting to communicate their own dreams to the extent that it is possible given the only thing that is available to us here: a "world of words".

Maia wrote:What I don't want to do is keep going over the same old ground. Boring is the very last thing I want to be!


That you saw it this way does not mean that I saw it this way. That you were bored does not mean that I was bored.

But that's how these things work for me given the manner in which I construe a "sense of self" here as the existential embodiment of dasein.

Therefore if I can sustain an exchange about dreams with others blind from birth, they might not become bored at all.

But, as I noted above, where to go [online] to find them?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby Maia » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:18 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Maia wrote:If you can think of any precise and specific questions about how I dream, or indeed about anything else to do with perceptions, then I'm more than happy to try and answer.


I don't think of it as an exchange of questions and answers. In regard to dreaming, the gap between those sighted from birth and those blind from birth may well be too wide for that sort of thing.

Instead, from my frame of mind, it seems it can only come down to those sighted like me hearing as many different descriptions of the dreams experienced by those blind from birth as possible. Different people attempting to communicate their own dreams to the extent that it is possible given the only thing that is available to us here: a "world of words".

Maia wrote:What I don't want to do is keep going over the same old ground. Boring is the very last thing I want to be!


That you saw it this way does not mean that I saw it this way. That you were bored does not mean that I was bored.

But that's how these things work for me given the manner in which I construe a "sense of self" here as the existential embodiment of dasein.

Therefore if I can sustain an exchange about dreams with others blind from birth, they might not become bored at all.

But, as I noted above, where to go [online] to find them?


I didn't say I was bored. I said I was concerned about being boring. I am, however, very busy.

I've already described a number of my dreams for you, but I don't remember taking part in any meaningful exchange about them.

So good luck with finding someone else to do what you want.
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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby iambiguous » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:44 pm

Maia wrote:I didn't say I was bored. I said I was concerned about being boring. I am, however, very busy.

I've already described a number of my dreams for you, but I don't remember taking part in any meaningful exchange about them.

So good luck with finding someone else to do what you want.


Again, given that we don't have access to that amazing contraption that would allow us to understand our exchange from the other's frame of mind, we can only agree to disagree as to why it was abandoned.

I think that it revolved more around how I make people uncomfortable given the manner in which my "fractured and fragmented" understanding of the world around me begins to sink into their own frame of mind. But that's based only on my many actual experiences in relating that to others.

And a meaningful exchange about dreams was only possible to the extent that we pursued it by way accumulating many, many descriptions of many, many dreams.

And I am not intent on finding others to do what I want, but on finding those who respect my own boundless curiosity about this mind-boggling existence in much the same manner that I respect theirs.

The rest, as always, is buried in dasein.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby Maia » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:57 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Maia wrote:I didn't say I was bored. I said I was concerned about being boring. I am, however, very busy.

I've already described a number of my dreams for you, but I don't remember taking part in any meaningful exchange about them.

So good luck with finding someone else to do what you want.


Again, given that we don't have access to that amazing contraption that would allow us to understand our exchange from the other's frame of mind, we can only agree to disagree as to why it was abandoned.

I think that it revolved more around how I make people uncomfortable given the manner in which my "fractured and fragmented" understanding of the world around me begins to sink into their own frame of mind. But that's based only on my many actual experiences in relating that to others.

And a meaningful exchange about dreams was only possible to the extent that we pursued it by way accumulating many, many descriptions of many, many dreams.

And I am not intent on finding others to do what I want, but on finding those who respect my own boundless curiosity about this mind-boggling existence in much the same manner that I respect theirs.

The rest, as always, is buried in dasein.


I told you exactly why I decided to abandon this public thread, and switch to a more informal and, above all, private discussion by email, which I would have much preferred. But all you did is accuse me, effectively, of dishonesty. And by continuing to assume it was because of your "undersanding of the world" (or whatever), you're still doing it now.

Since I'm working this evening, that is where I have to leave it. I don't think there's anything more to say, anyway.
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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby iambiguous » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:21 pm

Maia wrote:I told you exactly why I decided to abandon this public thread, and switch to a more informal and, above all, private discussion by email, which I would have much preferred. But all you did is accuse me, effectively, of dishonesty. And by continuing to assume it was because of your "undersanding of the world" (or whatever), you're still doing it now.


Again, it's just a fact of life [from my frame of mind] that we can only go so far in understanding each other in regard to discussions this inherently subjunctive. I could only react introspectively as I did given my own understanding of what was anything but a boring or repetitive exchange. I thought we were examining many aspects of our lives in a refreshingly honest and probing manner. Your own enthusiasm was certainly evident to me. Then it was like you...shut down. All I was left with was speculation. I still have no clue as to what you meant by a "natural conclusion". It seemed anything but that to me.

And I would certainly be curious about the part where you thought that I was accusing you of dishonesty. Over and again I made it abundantly clear that I was drawn to your extremely articulate assessment of yourself in the world around you.

And when I responded to you by email, well, you shut that down to.

On the other hand, as we both seem to agree, people are strange. Especially people like us I suppose.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby Maia » Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:06 am

iambiguous wrote:
Maia wrote:I told you exactly why I decided to abandon this public thread, and switch to a more informal and, above all, private discussion by email, which I would have much preferred. But all you did is accuse me, effectively, of dishonesty. And by continuing to assume it was because of your "undersanding of the world" (or whatever), you're still doing it now.


Again, it's just a fact of life [from my frame of mind] that we can only go so far in understanding each other in regard to discussions this inherently subjunctive. I could only react introspectively as I did given my own understanding of what was anything but a boring or repetitive exchange. I thought we were examining many aspects of our lives in a refreshingly honest and probing manner. Your own enthusiasm was certainly evident to me. Then it was like you...shut down. All I was left with was speculation. I still have no clue as to what you meant by a "natural conclusion". It seemed anything but that to me.

And I would certainly be curious about the part where you thought that I was accusing you of dishonesty. Over and again I made it abundantly clear that I was drawn to your extremely articulate assessment of yourself in the world around you.

And when I responded to you by email, well, you shut that down to.

On the other hand, as we both seem to agree, people are strange. Especially people like us I suppose.


I made it very clear that I wanted to continue our discussion by email, and that my reason for abandoning this thread had nothing to do with you. But in response, you said that you didn't believe me. To quote you:

+++But, in all honesty, I suspect otherwise.+++

And that's why I didn't email you again. I will not be accused of dishonesty.
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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby iambiguous » Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:08 am

Maia wrote:
I made it very clear that I wanted to continue our discussion by email, and that my reason for abandoning this thread had nothing to do with you. But in response, you said that you didn't believe me. To quote you:

+++But, in all honesty, I suspect otherwise.+++


If you took this to be an accusation, then, of course, I apologize. But it was never my intention to accuse you of anything. I was merely noting that "in all honesty" given my own genuine, introspective reaction to what you were telling me, there may well have been reasons that you yourself were not fully cognizant of. Again, based on my many experiences in the past opening up to others regarding the rather grim manner in which I construe value judgments, spirituality and purpose in life in what I have thought myself into believing is an essentially meaningless existence.

In fact I readily acknowledge this is in turn a common reaction I have to my own reasons. It is simply how I have come to think about "I" from within the turbulence of a profoundly problematic, drawn and quartered perspective.

Also, as I mentioned in the email, I was disappointed because from my frame of mind, I was sustaining a "virtual friendship" with you. And that seemed to be crumbling. But this won't make sense to many because they don't live in a world as imploded as mine. Sure, as I noted, I enjoy the life I live tremendously. But over the years all of my many "real world" friendships have collapsed. I don't have that sort of connection with others anymore. And I thought perhaps I might have it with you.

But, for sure, you can only react as openly and honestly as you do in turn. It's just the way it turned out.

Unfortunately, these particularly complex interactions often involve factors that are simply "beyond our control".
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby Maia » Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:07 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Maia wrote:
I made it very clear that I wanted to continue our discussion by email, and that my reason for abandoning this thread had nothing to do with you. But in response, you said that you didn't believe me. To quote you:

+++But, in all honesty, I suspect otherwise.+++


If you took this to be an accusation, then, of course, I apologize. But it was never my intention to accuse you of anything. I was merely noting that "in all honesty" given my own genuine, introspective reaction to what you were telling me, there may well have been reasons that you yourself were not fully cognizant of. Again, based on my many experiences in the past opening up to others regarding the rather grim manner in which I construe value judgments, spirituality and purpose in life in what I have thought myself into believing is an essentially meaningless existence.

In fact I readily acknowledge this is in turn a common reaction I have to my own reasons. It is simply how I have come to think about "I" from within the turbulence of a profoundly problematic, drawn and quartered perspective.

Also, as I mentioned in the email, I was disappointed because from my frame of mind, I was sustaining a "virtual friendship" with you. And that seemed to be crumbling. But this won't make sense to many because they don't live in a world as imploded as mine. Sure, as I noted, I enjoy the life I live tremendously. But over the years all of my many "real world" friendships have collapsed. I don't have that sort of connection with others anymore. And I thought perhaps I might have it with you.

But, for sure, you can only react as openly and honestly as you do in turn. It's just the way it turned out.

Unfortunately, these particularly complex interactions often involve factors that are simply "beyond our control".


Ok, apology accepted then.

But it's clear, from your reaction, and what you've said above, that you expected something more from me. Which I'm not in a position to give.
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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby iambiguous » Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:52 pm

What Dreams Are Like When You’re Blind
By Cari Romm
In New York magazine

Here’s a challenge: Reach back in your brain to the last dream you had, or at least the last one you can remember reasonably clearly. Think through how you’d describe it to someone else — where you were, who you encountered, what happened.

And now take a minute to think about how you know those things. If you’re like most people, the answer is pretty straightforward: You know because you saw them. Dreams are primarily visual, heavily influenced by the things we see while we’re awake (so much so, in fact, that people who grew up watching black-and-white television also tend to dream in grayscale).


I can only think back on the many times I have attempted to narrate my dreams to others. Yes, from time to time, sounds and smells and tastes were part of the experience. But mostly it was the things that I saw -- objects and people interacting -- that comprised the bulk of the description. So, when Maia created this thread, that's the first thing that popped into my own prejudiced/ignorant head: she was blind from birth. So, how in the world can she dream at all?

It is still difficult for me to grapple with this. The closest I can come to imagining how I might understand it is to imagine that I am put into a room with objects, sounds, smells etc., that I am totally unfamiliar with. And where, blindfolded for days on end, I can only absorb the experience through my other senses. Eventually I am going to find this experience itself popping up in my dreams. But, still, having been sighted for decades it can be no where near the experience of those who have never seen a single solitary thing...ever.

First, the technical, biological parts. The really, really mysterious parts where somehow the brain, as though having a mind all its own, figures out itself what to do.

From God? From nature? From the "laws of matter"?

But when you don’t have any images to draw from, the brain is forced to use other materials to construct its dream world, creating sleeping scenarios rich in sensory information that would otherwise be confined to waking life. On a science website hosted by the University of Illinois, one user summed it up this way: “Our dreams are based on our memories. So a person who has never experienced ‘seeing’ will not dream using sight,” they wrote. “This is just like how you do not dream with sonar images, as humans can not use sonar.”


So the part where the brain just "takes over" and draws on [by drawing out] all the other senses. The part that for me gets all tangled up in "metaphysical" speculation about determinism and free will.

Again, the sheer mind-boggling mystery of it all.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby iambiguous » Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:14 pm

Maia wrote:
Ok, apology accepted then.

But it's clear, from your reaction, and what you've said above, that you expected something more from me. Which I'm not in a position to give.


I'm sorry -- truly sorry -- to hear that.

But as I noted in our email exchange if you ever come upon an experience that you would like to share with me...an experience that you feel is not repetitive...please do.

And to the extent that you genuinely feel that I "expected something more from you", that was certainly not how I construed our exchange. But I can only connect the dots between myself and others as openly and honestly as things genuinely seem to me.

And the more I reveal about myself -- "I" as a fractured and fragmented existential contraption rooted in dasein -- the more people pull back. It's just not something they want to believe could ever be apllicable to themselves.

And, again, all those things that are simply "beyond my control".
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Do we dream less as we get older?

Postby iambiguous » Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:15 pm

Joni Mitchell "Amelia" https://youtu.be/gcTDoi9JQiY
Peter Murphy "Marlene Dietrich's Favourite Poem" https://youtu.be/ZaE7u0g-0qg
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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