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the value of philosophy

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 7:10 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
One of the values of philosophy is to frankly, "rock the boat".. to
bring out or attack the paradigms of society... to dig up the assumptions
that are the base of every society/state/ civilization/ culture....

we in America has quite a few assumptions that we simply take for granted...
that capitalism is the "best" economic system... that we have a working
democracy, that for the right, the best government is the least government,
and for the left, government is always benign and safe... (I don't hold this, but I
also hold that corporations/big business are far greater dangers to us as a
society/state then the government is right now.. if government seems evil right now,
that is because it is being driven evil by big business)

and in thinking about this, I was, naturally, drawn to my own thought....

I hold certain beliefs... but what anchors those beliefs?

for millions of people, religion and religious beliefs anchors their
beliefs.. they see the state/society/civilization/the culture based
on, anchored upon, religious beliefs....

but I don't hold to religious beliefs... so what anchors my beliefs?

and that becomes the question....on what principles do I anchor my
social/political/philosophical/and economic beliefs?

clearly much of my viewpoints are liberal in nature...but is my overall
beliefs anchored in my liberal views? is the anchor for my beliefs lie in my
political beliefs? do I see everything through the lens of liberalism?
I don't belief so, but I cannot, cannot assume anything...I must explore if
my political beliefs drive and anchor all my other beliefs?

I do hold that people are generally, generally, good and want to do the right thing,
but I also work retail and if one works retail for more then 5 minutes, you learn,
quickly to hate people.... so my beliefs in people are challenged by my conflicting
beliefs in the goodness of people and the nasty tone people have as customers in retail...
I am in conflict and how do I resolve this conflict? I have seen enough in people over
the last 60 years to hold that people generally want to do the right thing, but are quite
often confused, quite confused as to what the right thing is...
for reasons, I don't understand, quite often people will attempt to "convert"
me to "loving jesus"... yah, what fun....depending on the person, I may be
nice or I may be a dick about it..... depending.....
and those people see the universe through the lens of religion...
their beliefs are grounded by their religious beliefs....

but once again, what grounds my beliefs? what grounds the society beliefs or
the states beliefs or the culture beliefs?

under what flag should I plant my beliefs under?

that is the question...


Re: the value of philosophy

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 9:01 pm
by Dan~
I'd suggest you anchor yourself in your strongest instincts.
It might just be very simple and also easy.
Withdraw from the masses, and things soon become clear.
Back to the basics.

Re: the value of philosophy

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 9:10 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
as with everything, anything we can discuss involving the
individual, the one, we can discuss in terms of the collective......
the many....

so we have more just the one, the individual values, such as the values
of Kropotkin, we have collective values, the value of a society, state,
civilization or the culture...with this in mind, what are the collective
American values?

now many, even here, hold that freedom is the basis of all American values.....
and then these very same people cite the fact that we can buy different cereals
in a grocery story.....being able to buy something isn't being just
means you can buy something....even in Soviet Union, people were able to buy
things..(which leads us to the question, was the failure of the Soviet Union,
political, social, economic, philosophical? I have always held that the failure of
the Soviet Union lies in its trying to stretch the economic into the political...
Marxism is an economic theory, not a political theory.. and therein lies the failure....

so what values are the "American" values? is it freedom? Justice? equality?
Nationalism.. (white rights over all other rights)

I hold that America has, as its base, two values.. Justice and equality....
which as I have often pointed out, are the exact same thing....
notice part of the American dream is that it is a "land of laws"
hence, is not a land where the laws are subject to the whims of
a king or tyrant.. who may change the laws whenever they feel the need....
one cannot find justice in a land where the laws are forever being changed
at a king's or a dictator's whim....the entire point of a democracy is that
people have the ability to have a say over their lives... thus free choice is
important... but do we have, in current modern America, free choice?

I hold that no, no we don't have free choice..... our government is bought
and sold by big business and we are held hostage by our jobs to get health care....
which is just another way to deny us any free choice....

as I hold that we are denied free choice by corporations/big business..
not by the government, because it is big business that has bought
and sold the government and politicians....

the American dream is a mixture of freedom and justice..
and at the moment, we don't have either.....

but I ask you, what values would you consider to be American?

so what exactly does fidelity to the flag exactly mean?
what are we being faithful to?

what are the values of America? not American's but America?


Re: the value of philosophy

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 9:22 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
Dan~ wrote:I'd suggest you anchor yourself in your strongest instincts.
It might just be very simple and also easy.
Withdraw from the masses, and things soon become clear.
Back to the basics.

K: I hold that instincts, holding to or anchoring yourself to instincts is
part of the problem today.....instincts is of the animal... the lower instincts
of hate, anger, greed, despair... these lower instincts are what is limiting
and damaging our world today... especially America.....we cannot be free until
we rise above our instincts.... until we overcome our instincts and become
human... which is rising above instincts....the journey has been from animal,
to animal/human to becoming fully human... and the trip goes from totally instinct to
partial instincts, to overcoming instincts I attempting to
take away or destroy instincts, not at all, I am saying once we have free ourselves
of instincts, we can then come back and hold to the instincts worth holding onto...
like love, hope, charity, courage.....but the important thing is to be able to choose
what values and instincts we want to hold onto, not just hold values or instincts because
we can't do anything else....hold the values and instincts that we decide upon,
making a choice of the values and instincts that we want/need......
making choices instead of simply following the instincts because we have no choice....

I am not a fan of instincts.... let us choose instincts that best work for us, not just
because we have to.....


Re: the value of philosophy

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 9:41 pm
by Dan~
You also have the instinct to overcome other instincts.

Instincts are used against us,
to the point of self miss-trust.
Which leads to your idea of considering
the animal a lower being, and rationality
is the new master.

If animals had the hardware to do it,
they would create a rational meant to surpass instinct, too.

But you seem to not see how immersed people are in instinct.
It is a deep part of the human experience.
It shapes thought.