The Relevance of Truth

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Re: The Relevance of Truth

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:33 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:But is making "intelligent choices" wiser than just being obedient and letting authority do the thinking?


It might be the case, and I actually think it is the case, that the best way to survive in modern times is by believing in lies.

If that is true, and if the highest goal of each one of us is to survive, then we really should stop doing what we're doing (which is believing what is true) and start doing what we're not doing (which is believing what is false.)

The problem seems to be that we cannot adapt to reality. We simply can't help ourselves. So there must be something wrong with us, right?

But before we can say there is something wrong with us, we must first compare how we perform in relation to other people.

Are we the only ones who have trouble adapting to reality? Perhaps we're not. Perhaps it's a universal phenomenon. And if it's a universal phenomenon, then it's a problem that characterizes human species as a whole and not merely us.

But what we're going through is not a universal phenomenon, isn't it? So I guess there really must be something wrong with us? ):

Well, not necessarily.

Other people might be doing what is necessary to do in order to survive without necessarily doing it because they want to do it.

And if that's the case, if they are doing something they do not really want to do, how can you say they are victors?

In fact, how can you say they are doing better than us?

How is it desirable to do what they are doing?

Who wants/desires to do what they don't want/desire to do?

Isn't that an obvious contradiction?

People don't merely want to survive. They also want to perceive they are surviving. So even if the former is achieved, they are not victors if the latter isn't achieved as well.

And that sounds like a good first debate in order to see what is justified to do - to continue debating or what.
=D>
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Re: The Relevance of Truth

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:45 am

And I just realized that if this kind of thing played out it would lead directly to James' "Angel Network" and sub networks that leads to his SAM Co-op order for future society. This thing could be HUGE - bigger than the Internet and NY stock exchange combined. :shock:

Then the issue of how to enforce secrecy becomes inherent - the best way to enforce anything.

If they want to talk about global communist reset - MEET the COMPETITION! 8)
:lol:



Or is it that I just get excited too easy. :-? 8-[
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Re: The Relevance of Truth

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:57 pm

O'Biden's answer to this is now a "Reality Czar" - US communist government Ministry of Truth.

How long should we guess it will take before the globalists provide the world with a USPPP -
    Ugly Swamp People's Party Pravda

That's what you get when you don't do anything better.
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Re: The Relevance of Truth

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:01 pm

Kathrina wrote:The Internet recapitulates modernity. In the beginning, modernity was very promising, especially for the middle class, and later also for the lower class, although the negative sides of modernity also became clear, which later could not be overlooked at all, and soon the end of modernity will be reached. If the Internet recapitulates modernity, but at much shorter intervals of course, then the Internet will also soon be at its end, at least for most users, because most of them will no longer like the Internet.


I stopped liking it long time ago. I believe it's because it has become more difficult to find what I'm looking for. There is less and less variety. I have the impression that whatever I'm searching for, I always get the same exact results. That might be thanks to Google but I am not sure it's entirely thanks to Google. In any case, a different way of browsing the Internet has to be considered (assuming there is relevant content to be found on the Internet.)

obsrvr524 wrote:There is one issue I thought of. In that resolution debating there must be an active logic moderator - someone with a keen eye for deviation from the house rules and willing to step in immediately and demand correction. I'm not sure how that can be done on websites or blogs. I guess a moderator could be voted on by the debaters (if a good one could be found).


You simply ask someone to be a moderator. Suppose you present an argument on your website and invite someone (e.g. Ecmandu) to examine it for you. He accepts. You present him with a set of rules that both of you must follow. He accepts. Then you ask someone else (e.g. Magsj) to moderate the debate between the two of you by making sure that everyone is following the rules both of you have accepted; and in case a rule has been violated, to step in. You ask Ecmandu whether he's fine with Magsj moderating the discussion. He either is and the debate starts; or he says he is not and then you either look for someone both you and Ecmandu are fine with or you simply give up. It's more or less straightforward. What's important is that you know what you want/expect from a debate so that you can devise a clear set of rules for you and others to follow. That helps you and others avoid unpleasant surprises.

Note that James's concept of resolution debate was meant to be used by people who live together. The underlying idea, I believe, is that every member of a group must approve of every action of every other member of the group. I don't think he ever put it this way but I am certain enough that that was the idea behind it. When disagreements arise, e.g. when someone says "I'm going to do this" and someone else objects, a process of resolution debate is initiated with the aim to resolve the disagreement. If no agreement can be reached, those who disagree are free to leave the group and start or join another one. Basically, it is a way to maximize group cohesion (something that seems to be missing in many, if not most, groups nowadays.)

It wasn't meant to be used on the Internet. Though, as far as I can tell, he had nothing against the idea (he even encouraged it.) To use it on the Internet, however, one would have to adapt it. It's a different environment, so slightly different rules are expected to apply.
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

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Re: The Relevance of Truth

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:36 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:There is one issue I thought of. In that resolution debating there must be an active logic moderator - someone with a keen eye for deviation from the house rules and willing to step in immediately and demand correction. I'm not sure how that can be done on websites or blogs. I guess a moderator could be voted on by the debaters (if a good one could be found).


You simply ask someone to be a moderator. Suppose you present an argument on your website and invite someone (e.g. Ecmandu) to examine it for you. He accepts. You present him with a set of rules that both of you must follow. He accepts. Then you ask someone else (e.g. Magsj) to moderate the debate between the two of you by making sure that everyone is following the rules both of you have accepted; and in case a rule has been violated, to step in. You ask Ecmandu whether he's fine with Magsj moderating the discussion. He either is and the debate starts; or he says he is not and then you either look for someone both you and Ecmandu are fine with or you simply give up. It's more or less straightforward. What's important is that you know what you want/expect from a debate so that you can devise a clear set of rules for you and others to follow. That helps you and others avoid unpleasant surprises.

Isn't that exactly how you end up with what we have now - that thing you just said is disappointing for you? - not enough progress toward your aim?

Arbitrary moderating leads to insufficient or even absent moderating - regardless of good intentions (and sometimes because of good intentions). And arbitrarily choosing moderators is how the US Congress became so lame. Arbitrary moderating leads to arbitrary discussions and arbitrary conclusions (if any at all).

The debaters provide the drive and energy. The moderator maintains to course to resolution.

Magnus Anderson wrote:Note that James's concept of resolution debate was meant to be used by people who live together. The underlying idea, I believe, is that every member of a group must approve of every action of every other member of the group.

You are referring to his SAM Co-op, not merely the debating process. And in either case a unanimous vote was never suggested. I am thinking you don't understand what he meant.

Magnus Anderson wrote:I don't think he ever put it this way but I am certain enough that that was the idea behind it. When disagreements arise, e.g. when someone says "I'm going to do this" and someone else objects, a process of resolution debate is initiated with the aim to resolve the disagreement. If no agreement can be reached, those who disagree are free to leave the group and start or join another one. Basically, it is a way to maximize group cohesion (something that seems to be missing in many, if not most, groups nowadays.)

I think that option only applied to those who grew intolerant of newly developed amendments - like the US adding an amendment stating that white people are not allowed to vote (could be on the way over there). How any one group chooses its amendments depends on what the originators setup (assuming the basic constitution held intact).

Magnus Anderson wrote:It wasn't meant to be used on the Internet.

That can't be true. He actually setup a forum on another website (Reality something) allowing the admin to be the moderator. As it turned out that admin had no idea of what he was supposed to do so the whole thing looked a lot like me and Silhouette "debating" - nothing at all accomplished (ask a simple yes/no question over and over just to get paragraphs of distractions over and over). James commented to and about that "moderator" having to know when to correct the actions of the participants. But being the admin, he seemed to just say - "well this experiment didn't work" and deleted the whole thing.

Magnus Anderson wrote: It's a different environment, so slightly different rules are expected to apply.

Perhaps rules would need to be refined but the first most important is to make sure the authority - the moderator - was actively involved and reasonably competent. Without that objections of the moderator's objections (or lack of them) would just become the whole argument - the original debate probably forgotten - not any different than what you see around here.

I think that either you or I could manage the moderator task proficiently (any analytical reductionist type). Other than that, any adaptation of the rules could be easily handled I think.

My first concern when examining his SAM Co-op (different than the resolution debating) was that people generally could see no need for it (not that the need wasn't there). I am thinking now after recent events, perhaps a few more can.

As long as a better method isn't established - a global Ministry of Truth is destiny.
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Re: The Relevance of Truth

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:27 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:Isn't that exactly how you end up with what we have now - that thing you just said is disappointing for you? - not enough progress toward your aim?


I just said that something is disappointing to me? Where?

Arbitrary moderating leads to insufficient or even absent moderating - regardless of good intentions (and sometimes because of good intentions). And arbitrarily choosing moderators is how the US Congress became so lame. Arbitrary moderating leads to arbitrary discussions and arbitrary conclusions (if any at all).

The debaters provide the drive and energy. The moderator maintains to course to resolution.


I did not say that one should arbitrarily choose who's going to moderate the discussion they are about to have. It goes without saying that it would be in one's best interest to choose the person most suitable for the task.

And I also didn't say that moderation should be arbitrary i.e. that moderators should moderate according to their whims. The job of a moderator is to make sure that the discussion is unfolding in accordance with a given set of rules. That's the opposite of arbitrary.

You are referring to his SAM Co-op, not merely the debating process.


I don't think he invented the debating process separately from his SAM Co-op. But I wouldn't bet on that. Either way, it's quite possible he thought about using it in other contexts too.

And in either case a unanimous vote was never suggested. I am thinking you don't understand what he meant.


I am not so sure.

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... a#p2213944

James S. Saint wrote:What are we to eat for dinner tonight, Pizza?
I don't like pizza, what else do we have?
Well, we can have hamburgers instead
Okay, I like hamburgers
Okay, done, hamburgers it is.

Now, believe or not, that was a rational process, not because hamburgers are better for you or superior in any way other than the revealed fact that they were preferred over pizza by the only people involved. Would your group be deciding every meal for every one? I would hope not. Thus what is rational is up to those involved and INCLUDES their passions/desires. The logical part of the process was merely the discovery of what was available and the short discussion of who preferred which. Both were willing to have hamburgers, THEREFORE hamburgers it is.

Someone could foil the simplicity of those two by introducing the more complex issue of health or physique. If those ideas are introduced, then again, they include those thought into deciding which final choice to make consider ALL that they want, not merely which tastes better.


obsrvr524 wrote:I think that option only applied to those who grew intolerant of newly developed amendments - like the US adding an amendment stating that white people are not allowed to vote (could be on the way over there). How any one group chooses its amendments depends on what the originators setup (assuming the basic constitution held intact).


What option? Are you speaking of the option to leave the group or the option to disagree with a proposed course of action?

Either way, this seems to tackle it:

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 0#p2222753

James S Saint wrote:If any member disagrees substantially but cannot come up with any rationale for his claim, then he should find a different group more in line with his thinking (or lack of), else he is causing a disharmony to develop within himself as well as the group. He always has the freedom to change groups.


obsrvr524 wrote:That can't be true. He actually setup a forum on another website (Reality something) allowing the admin to be the moderator. As it turned out that admin had no idea of what he was supposed to do so the whole thing looked a lot like me and Silhouette "debating" - nothing at all accomplished (ask a simple yes/no question over and over just to get paragraphs of distractions over and over). James commented to and about that "moderator" having to know when to correct the actions of the participants. But being the admin, he seemed to just say - "well this experiment didn't work" and deleted the whole thing.


Possible.

This is what I based my opinion on:

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5#p2218713

James S Saint wrote:I think Internet only functioning is going to be limited in many respects, but I can't see why it couldn't still work. The CRH actually has a small built-in purpose function, otherwise, without something like a small business to run, there aren't really any significant decisions to make. A group has to have a purpose for being a group. Even though society already supplies that purpose (to survive what society is throwing at you), it is often difficult for people to see the benefit of having a group or team working together. People strongly fear being a "joiner" (left over psycho effect from the 70's Chaos incentive).


Obviously, he's talking about an Internet version of CHR not merely resolution debate.

obsrvr524 wrote:Perhaps rules would need to be refined but the first most important is to make sure the authority - the moderator - was actively involved and reasonably competent. Without that objections of the moderator's objections (or lack of them) would just become the whole argument - the original debate probably forgotten - not any different than what you see around here.

I think that either you or I could manage the moderator task proficiently (any analytical reductionist type). Other than that, any adaptation of the rules could be easily handled I think.


Either way, you have to choose what's allowed and what's not allowed within a discussion ("the rules") before you can start enforcing it (i.e. moderating the discussion) and before you can delegate that task to someone else.

That's the first step -- a very important one -- that is pretty much neglected around here and elsewhere.
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

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Re: The Relevance of Truth

Postby Kathrina » Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:02 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:
Kathrina wrote:The Internet recapitulates modernity. In the beginning, modernity was very promising, especially for the middle class, and later also for the lower class, although the negative sides of modernity also became clear, which later could not be overlooked at all, and soon the end of modernity will be reached. If the Internet recapitulates modernity, but at much shorter intervals of course, then the Internet will also soon be at its end, at least for most users, because most of them will no longer like the Internet.


I stopped liking it long time ago. I believe it's because it has become more difficult to find what I'm looking for. There is less and less variety. I have the impression that whatever I'm searching for, I always get the same exact results. That might be thanks to Google but I am not sure it's entirely thanks to Google. In any case, a different way of browsing the Internet has to be considered (assuming there is relevant content to be found on the Internet.).

Google and other global players who dominate the Internet ensure that they are always the first to be found via the search engines, and because people are lazy and don't search further, they get the most clicks, so that their oligopoly becomes ever more powerful. Market laws do not apply to them. And this has a lot of consequences.

I would very much welcome an independent, legally secured web presence of any person. It seemed to take this development in the 1990s, but the history of modernity initially also showed a pleasant development for each individual and then took a different course.

Before the turn of the millennium, it should have been ensured that the Internet did not fall prey to total control. But that was gladly avoided. Now it is too late for such a development. But as I said, I am sure that the Internet, which itself is part of modernity, will recapitulate modernity, with which it will end.
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Re: The Relevance of Truth

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:50 am

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Re: The Relevance of Truth

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:04 pm

I have realized something about that debate process - it isn't about who wins or loses. It is about revealing the agreements and disagreements in a very precise way. And that does 4 things to help -

  • It removes the pride or ego issue often controlling debates
  • It reveals what issues might need further study or investigation
  • It catalogues the current state of beliefs
  • It reveals who or what can be trusted by others of similar perspective

I think that makes a serious social shift away from confusion, distrust, and feelings of hopelessness toward a more solidly reliable social environment (the opposite of what has been promoted for decades).

The reality of our immediate situation has to be relevant for literally every creature (which I suppose is what inspires depression when it knowingly cannot be assessed - that feeling of hopelessness and "what's the use").

So I don't think it is necessarily about discovering the ultimate truths about anything but rather discovering the truth about what each person currently believes - their/your bubble of belief. And from that each person can better make decisions as to where and how they want to proceed. And I suppose it would reveal the current variety of methods available to accomplish whatever someone was wanting to accomplish.

I think it offers a degree of hope against the gloom of the current onslaught of Orwellian political darkness overtaking the world.

So Magnus, if you are interested, I think we could try to use this process in our discussion about the "1 = 0.999..." debate. We could try to share the "Logic Arbiter" (James' LA in the flowchart - or what he calls "Arbitrator"). We would probably stubble through it until we get the feel but it seems a worthy effort to me.

Up for it? O:)
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Re: The Relevance of Truth

Postby Magnus Anderson » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:11 pm

I agree with everything you said.

And yes, I am up for the debate. However, in order to make it worthwhile for both of us, I would suggest coming up with a set of rules that both of us deem acceptable. In other words, we have to invent a game that both of us will find useful and enjoyable to play. Of course, that game is the game of resolution debate but the devil is in the details. We need to discover the version of the game both of us want to play. The result would be a written set of rules that explain how the game is played. Once we're done with that, we would simply . . . play the game (: And if we realize the game isn't quite as satisfying as we thought, we could simply go back and tweak its design.

What do you think?
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

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Re: The Relevance of Truth

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:48 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:I agree with everything you said.

And yes, I am up for the debate. However, in order to make it worthwhile for both of us, I would suggest coming up with a set of rules that both of us deem acceptable. In other words, we have to invent a game that both of us will find useful and enjoyable to play. Of course, that game is the game of resolution debate but the devil is in the details. We need to discover the version of the game both of us want to play. The result would be a written set of rules that explain how the game is played. Once we're done with that, we would simply . . . play the game (: And if we realize the game isn't quite as satisfying as we thought, we could simply go back and tweak its design.

What do you think?

That is exactly what I was thinking. :)

There are several issues we have to work out –
  • Since we are experimenting with having no single moderator - we have to have rules for "points of order" issues seeking mutual consent – how we propose them – how we resolve them.
  • Which forum to be used for each type of rules issue. I'm thinking that the debate itself can stay where it is in Science and Maths but the rules for moderating and the general idea of resolution debating are more a philosophy issue – truth and wisdom seeking. So a new thread for that – perhaps handling both the general procedure as well as mutual consent moderating.
  • The process involves documenting specific agreements and differences, so I suggest we keep those on yet another thread – editing updates – not sure which forum.
  • There is to be some kind of a categorizing of the issues – that can become very complex – perhaps on the General Resolution Debating thread. And perhaps not even attempted until we go through a trial run.
By the end (or even half way through), we should both gain more confidence in our own thoughts on the issue as well as what the points of contention are. What I suspect will happen is that most issues will end up being seen as merely wording and symbol issues (that seems to be the norm around here).

So unless you have objection I will go ahead and start a thread on the general procedure in this forum. :D
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Re: The Relevance of Truth

Postby Magnus Anderson » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:15 pm

Go ahead!
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

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Re: The Relevance of Truth

Postby Magnus Anderson » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:15 pm

(d/p)
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

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Re: The Relevance of Truth

Postby promethean75 » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:17 pm

Somebody said something about a james flow chart. This is the best one you'll find.
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Re: The Relevance of Truth

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:48 pm

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