Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

This is the main board for discussing philosophy - formal, informal and in between.

Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:35 pm

I am placing this post here because of its conclusions,
not because of its content....

we have two historical figures, one clearly fictional and
the other?

I see Hamlet as being a continuation of the Abraham story.....

what the fuck, Kropotkin? what are you smoking?
nothing hear me out....

let us set the stage...

Abraham hears the voice of god.. who demands he kills his son,
Isaac, as a sign of devotion to god... Abraham being a "believer"
takes Isaac on a three day journey to obey God's command..

at the appointed place, Abraham lifts the knife and.....
an angel appears and stops this event.... replacing
Isaac with a random Ram who was wondering by...

and in Hamlet, Hamlet see's a ghost of his dead father who commands
that Hamlet avenges the father's death by killing the new king,
King Claudius... who killed Hamlet father and took his throne and wife....
Hamlet mother....

so we have two voices, one claiming to be god and one a ghost claiming to be
Hamlet father, asking their respective protagonist, Abraham and Hamlet
to kill the objective of the voices....

we can see that Hamlet is the more modern story because of the
hesitation of Hamlet to kill that isn't in the biblical story.....

Abraham doesn't seem to have the hesitation of Hamlet......

and I believe that comes from the introduction of the state that so
dominates our lives and Hamlet's life....

there is really no mention of the state/nation in the biblical story
of Abraham...it is simply the actions of people being people......

whereas the entire background of Hamlet is about the state...
recall that Hamlet is the son of the King who was slain,
by rights, Hamlet should be King, not Claudius.....

so this voice of Abraham and Hamlet, tells them they must kill
certain people because of... one because of devotion to god,
the other to revenge the death of the father....

both are strong and powerful actions that are being demanded......

revenge and devotion...... powerful stuff....

and opposing these powerful emotions, are also powerful idea's....

thou shall not kill thy son... infanticide brings up powerful feelings
and emotions within us...... as does killing the uncle, which is
regicide .... another action which brings out powerful emotions
and feelings....both acts requires the killing of a family member...
emotions doesn't really get any stronger then that....

and oppose to these emotions lie equally strong feelings as I mentioned...
we love our children... I am a father myself.. and I have uncles, no longer alive,
but I did and some of them did do me wrong... nothing worth killing over for sure,
but nevertheless.....

so how am I to resolve this situation?

I have been told/asked to kill another human being to fix some human situations....
to seek revenge and to hold a god in proper respect....

we see in the old testament that the highest example of being human is to
hold to our devotion to god.... and because of that, Abraham doesn't seem to
object....whereas Hamlet seems to have a great deal of trouble with his command...

to put this into other terms.... we have an inner, personal voice telling us
to act in a certain way, in defiance to the rules of society... we have this
"TRUTH" which we can only hear advocating actions in defiance to the rules
of society.....who do we listen to? do we hold to our inner truth
or do we bow down to the "TRUTHS" of the society and do not act
as our own inner voices have commanded us to?

this dilemma is one which faces practically every human being......

I have faced this dilemma my entire life as has most of you......

we are faced with two impossible actions.. and both actions require
us to defy a "TRUTH" be it a personal truth or be it a community/social
"TRUTH'....the society/state demands that we do not kill our children
and, and we do not kill our leaders/monarchs......

which "TRUTH' will you hold for? your inner voice that demands that you
do/speak as it requires you to or do you answer the call of your society/state
and do not act as your inner truth requires?

the respective stories of Abraham and Hamlet bring out some very real
human possibilities and "TRUTHS" that we face every single day....

which "TRUTH" shall we follow? our own personal, inner truths or do we
follow the community/state "TRUTH" that demands we don't kill our son
or our uncle/monarch?

this is a lifelong struggle we face... which truth shall we abide by?

the voice inside of our head or the voice from outside.. the society/state voice.....

the voice you follow will decide/determine who you are and what it means
to you to be human........ we are social creatures that must, must make
allowances for our need for us to be social creatures..... we as human beings
must, must engage with our fellow human beings and our culture/state/society.....

we die if we cannot engage with on a constant basis with our culture/state/society....
and we cannot go against that which we must be, social creatures that need to
be connected to the culture/state/society.... we connect or we die... pretty simple
actually....

but those pesky voices in our head... telling us our own personal and quite often oppose
to...against the needs/wants/desires of the culture/state/society we live in....

and how do we solve this dilemma? which voice shall we listen to,
the state/society/culture or do we listen to the voice in our head?

Kropotkin
PK IS EVIL.....
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8886
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby Meno_ » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:16 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:I am placing this post here because of its conclusions,
not because of its content....

we have two historical figures, one clearly fictional and
the other?

I see Hamlet as being a continuation of the Abraham story.....

what the fuck, Kropotkin? what are you smoking?
nothing hear me out....

let us set the stage...

Abraham hears the voice of god.. who demands he kills his son,
Isaac, as a sign of devotion to god... Abraham being a "believer"
takes Isaac on a three day journey to obey God's command..

at the appointed place, Abraham lifts the knife and.....
an angel appears and stops this event.... replacing
Isaac with a random Ram who was wondering by...

and in Hamlet, Hamlet see's a ghost of his dead father who commands
that Hamlet avenges the father's death by killing the new king,
King Claudius... who killed Hamlet father and took his throne and wife....
Hamlet mother....

so we have two voices, one claiming to be god and one a ghost claiming to be
Hamlet father, asking their respective protagonist, Abraham and Hamlet
to kill the objective of the voices....

we can see that Hamlet is the more modern story because of the
hesitation of Hamlet to kill that isn't in the biblical story.....

Abraham doesn't seem to have the hesitation of Hamlet......

and I believe that comes from the introduction of the state that so
dominates our lives and Hamlet's life....

there is really no mention of the state/nation in the biblical story
of Abraham...it is simply the actions of people being people......

whereas the entire background of Hamlet is about the state...
recall that Hamlet is the son of the King who was slain,
by rights, Hamlet should be King, not Claudius.....

so this voice of Abraham and Hamlet, tells them they must kill
certain people because of... one because of devotion to god,
the other to revenge the death of the father....

both are strong and powerful actions that are being demanded......

revenge and devotion...... powerful stuff....

and opposing these powerful emotions, are also powerful idea's....

thou shall not kill thy son... infanticide brings up powerful feelings
and emotions within us...... as does killing the uncle, which is
regicide .... another action which brings out powerful emotions
and feelings....both acts requires the killing of a family member...
emotions doesn't really get any stronger then that....

and oppose to these emotions lie equally strong feelings as I mentioned...
we love our children... I am a father myself.. and I have uncles, no longer alive,
but I did and some of them did do me wrong... nothing worth killing over for sure,
but nevertheless.....

so how am I to resolve this situation?

I have been told/asked to kill another human being to fix some human situations....
to seek revenge and to hold a god in proper respect....

we see in the old testament that the highest example of being human is to
hold to our devotion to god.... and because of that, Abraham doesn't seem to
object....whereas Hamlet seems to have a great deal of trouble with his command...

to put this into other terms.... we have an inner, personal voice telling us
to act in a certain way, in defiance to the rules of society... we have this
"TRUTH" which we can only hear advocating actions in defiance to the rules
of society.....who do we listen to? do we hold to our inner truth
or do we bow down to the "TRUTHS" of the society and do not act
as our own inner voices have commanded us to?

this dilemma is one which faces practically every human being......

I have faced this dilemma my entire life as has most of you......

we are faced with two impossible actions.. and both actions require
us to defy a "TRUTH" be it a personal truth or be it a community/social
"TRUTH'....the society/state demands that we do not kill our children
and, and we do not kill our leaders/monarchs......

which "TRUTH' will you hold for? your inner voice that demands that you
do/speak as it requires you to or do you answer the call of your society/state
and do not act as your inner truth requires?

the respective stories of Abraham and Hamlet bring out some very real
human possibilities and "TRUTHS" that we face every single day....

which "TRUTH" shall we follow? our own personal, inner truths or do we
follow the community/state "TRUTH" that demands we don't kill our son
or our uncle/monarch?

this is a lifelong struggle we face... which truth shall we abide by?

the voice inside of our head or the voice from outside.. the society/state voice.....

the voice you follow will decide/determine who you are and what it means
to you to be human........ we are social creatures that must, must make
allowances for our need for us to be social creatures..... we as human beings
must, must engage with our fellow human beings and our culture/state/society.....

we die if we cannot engage with on a constant basis with our culture/state/society....
and we cannot go against that which we must be, social creatures that need to
be connected to the culture/state/society.... we connect or we die... pretty simple
actually....

but those pesky voices in our head... telling us our own personal and quite often oppose
to...against the needs/wants/desires of the culture/state/society we live in....

and how do we solve this dilemma? which voice shall we listen to,
the state/society/culture or do we listen to the voice in our head?

Kropotkin





Peter said:

"and how do we solve this dilemma? which voice shall we listen to,
the state/society/culture or do we listen to the voice in our head?"


It depends. Which is more 'real' ; or reality aside. Which version is more believable, or finally which will cause less harm.

I think that these choices have to be analyzed, before a preferential route can be found to tackle this question.



We can defer to the conflative fusing of these three modes of inquiery, in relativistic ways, but then the question will arise wether we intentionally mixed them, causing a rapture between rhetoric devices and what we willingly or unwillingly meant to signify for meaning.

Thus defeating the confusing idea that there need be more then three levels of metaphor constructed.
Meno_
breathless
 
Posts: 8031
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:25 pm

I hold this truth to be self evident: that all monarchs must die.....

that "self evident" truth is an inner truth that the society/state,
denies to be either "self evident" or the "truth".... to kill the monarch,
to do as Hamlet inner voice required him to do, means to violate
societies norm and values...to be punished for following one's inner
"TRUTH".......

I hold this truth to be self evident: that all men are create equal.....

suddenly I hold a truth that some, certainly not all, but some do believe
to be "TRUTH" and to be "self evident"....

so, to follow this second "TRUTH", some would cheer
and some would put me into jail......society is conflicted upon
this particular "TRUTH".....

Most of our "TRUTHS" fall into this category of some "TRUTH" are accepted
and believed and some "TRUTHS" are not accepted or believed....

rarely do we ever get a total acceptance from our inner voice and the
society/state/culture TRUTHS that are also "self evident" .......

for most people, there are conflicts between what is the "TRUTH"
and what is "self evident"... and this conflict flow from both
individual and collective/state "TRUTHS" that we hold 'TRUTHS"
apart and separate from each other and from what is collectively
held, is not new or a mystery.....Hamlet held a personal 'TRUTH"
but it was in conflict with the State 'TRUTH".. though shall not kill
the monarch, thy uncle.......

but on what grounds can we base our or any decision to kill the "King"

as this is the age of IQ45... we can suddenly see the appropriateness of this
thought or for those on the right...that Biden is now king
and the appropriateness of killing the new king......

suddenly Hamlet becomes the news of the day....

we have our inner 'TRUTHS" and how far do we carry this inner 'TRUTH"
in defiance of the laws of human beings and society?

Hamlet and Abraham don't seem so far away now, do they?

those who attempted to overthrow the government this last week,
built a hanging post outside the capital and had zip ties in which
to tie up congressmen or even the VP and take them outside and hang
them.... this was a common theme in the crowd on the capital grounds....
to take out those who in that inner voice "tried to deny justice" by not
putting IQ45 into his second term.....

but lacking intelligence those who tried to overthrow the government
lack the understanding of the implications of their actions whereas
Hamlet understood the implications of his thoughts and his "Inner voice"

Thus his hesitation to perform what the voice of his father, the ghost
told him to act upon, which is the revenge killing of his uncle..
the king.....

placed into context the hesitation of Hamlet makes far more sense
now...which voice, which commandment was he going to follow...
his inner voice or the voice of the state/society/the culture?

this conflict drives the entire play of Hamlet and to this day, drives
much of our current conflict......

which voice are we going to listen to?

Kropotkin
PK IS EVIL.....
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8886
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:30 pm

K:
"and how do we solve this dilemma? which voice shall we listen to,
the state/society/culture or do we listen to the voice in our head?"


M: It depends. Which is more 'real' ; or reality aside. Which version is more believable, or finally which will cause less harm.

I think that these choices have to be analyzed, before a preferential route can be found to tackle this question.

K: analyzed great, but the question still remains, which tool shall we use to analyze this?
logic, rationality, emotion, laws, inner truths..... how do we create the means/tools
by which we can analyze this?

M: We can defer to the conflative fusing of these three modes of inquiery, in relativistic ways, but then the question will arise wether we intentionally mixed them, causing a rapture between rhetoric devices and what we willingly or unwillingly meant to signify for meaning.
Thus defeating the confusing idea that there need be more then three levels of metaphor constructed.

K: to be honest, I have no idea what you are saying... spell it out in simple, plain english...

Kropotkin
PK IS EVIL.....
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8886
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby phyllo » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:44 pm

phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 12142
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:52 pm

phyllo wrote:



K: any Star Wars connection is welcomed... now, the real point is to align
your "feelings" with what is in the force...... be one with the force, means
your "feelings" and the force are the same thing.....alienation
and discontentment are due to the disconnection from one's "feelings"
and the force... as is alienation and the disconnection
between our "feelings" and the state.....that drives much of modern society....

Kropotkin
PK IS EVIL.....
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8886
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby Meno_ » Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:36 pm

You got that real right
Meno_
breathless
 
Posts: 8031
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby phyllo » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:17 pm

Nothing to do with Star Wars or the force or the state.

It's a question of authenticity.
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 12142
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:14 pm

phyllo wrote:Nothing to do with Star Wars or the force or the state.

It's a question of authenticity.


K: and this means what?

Kropotkin
PK IS EVIL.....
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8886
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby phyllo » Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:03 am

It means trusting your feelings and going with your feelings rather than aligning with a force, leader, community or state.
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 12142
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby Meno_ » Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:22 am

phyllo wrote:It means trusting your feelings and going with your feelings rather than aligning with a force, leader, community or state.





Ja wohl, Herr Fuhrer !
Meno_
breathless
 
Posts: 8031
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby phyllo » Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:18 am

Yeah. When some people are being authentic then they do things that we might not want them to do.

I don't see any way around that, except by control and manipulation.
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 12142
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby phyllo » Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:18 pm

The concept of authenticity is similar to 'free speech'.

If you believe in free speech then Hitler ought to be able to have free speech.

But that's too much for some people. They believe in free speech only for people that they agree with and everyone else has to be silenced.
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 12142
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby iambiguous » Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:37 pm

phyllo wrote:It means trusting your feelings and going with your feelings rather than aligning with a force, leader, community or state.


Hamlet had feelings. Abraham had feelings. You have feelings. I have feelings. Karpel Tunnel has feelings rooted in his "visceral, intuitive, deep-down-inside-me" Self. Fictional feelings. Factual feelings.

But what are we trusting? Aren't they feelings no less fabricated existentially through years of indoctrination as children, through a unique sequence of personal experiences and relationships out in a particular world historically, culturally and circumstantially?

Authenticity here can be construed in two ways. One revolves around hypocrisy and the other around deontology.

One can live a particular life and come to sincerely believe in fascism or communism or religion or atheism or the things that Hamlet and Abraham felt were authentic. But then they don't live up to their convictions.

And then there are those who insist that a life lived authentically is a life that embodies principles.

But we will always need a context in which to examine how human interactions play out given the assumptions made here about thoughts and feelings said to be either authentic or inauthentic.

And that's where the points I raise here come in. And, yes, I raise them over and over again. But that is because the manner in which I understand them leaves "me" both "fractured and fragmented".

How then do those who are not manage this?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 39651
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby phyllo » Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:10 pm

Indoctrination is experience. You are your indoctrinations as much as any other experience.
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 12142
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby Meno_ » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:05 pm

Feelings are more primal, indoctrination can not reach them as readily. Most feelings of the kind that are covered, or repressed, are evidently not as prevy to freely expressed. control techniques, since they have to be accessed indirectly, not to the point.

The whole make up of repressive techniques plays on the structural makeup of indirect derivation, of playing on the gaps of mamory, created to hide the 'facts' to be repressed.

Hence any direct affront to the repressive negatives control techniques, will automatically red flag the missing associatjon, and disconnect the repressive technique from effect.

Messing with feelings is not as effective as a direct factual confrontation of already associated consequences that have not yet been repressed.

Hamlet is less prone to manipulation , becausd, the murder has been committed , whereas for Abraham, it was only a test. The levels of guilt is what drives repressjon, and the connection between an intrinsic repression, and an extrinsic societal coersjon, becomes a balancing act of trying to identify the onus of the pivot that projective and introspective inquiry tries to find it's balance on a variable fulcrum

The test of faith, in one case over the actual deed of murder need no comparison at this point, hence there occurs a rejection of exemplar regarding any conscious and unconscious rise to a platform, where the level of guilt can spill over into the religious content of Abraham.

Yet, guilt is often becomes an architectural project so that absolvence can serve as the gluten to adherence of the flock.

The flock will faithfully abide, so that their own personal freedoms can be kept in mind and expurged. This is what Freud believes as keeping the balance within the economy of the id.
Meno_
breathless
 
Posts: 8031
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby phyllo » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:50 am

Feelings are more primal, indoctrination can not reach them as readily.
That's part of it ... a few years of "brainwashing" don't erase millions of years of evolution.
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 12142
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:58 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote:to put this into other terms.... we have an inner, personal voice telling us
to act in a certain way, in defiance to the rules of society... we have this
"TRUTH" which we can only hear advocating actions in defiance to the rules
of society.....who do we listen to? do we hold to our inner truth
or do we bow down to the "TRUTHS" of the society and do not act
as our own inner voices have commanded us to?


You should always do what you wholeheartedly believe you should do. The emphasis is on the word "wholeheartedly" because every part of you must agree with your chosen course of action. If there's just one part of you disagreeing with your decision, you should postpone it until internal consensus is reached.

The case that you present is a case in which a person is split between two different voices, one coming from within (what you currently think) and one coming from without (what others think.) To resolve the problem, you have to postpone action until internal disagreement is reached. Once internal consensus is reached, you might end up 1) completely ignoring what others think, 2) taking into consideration what others think but concluding that they are wrong, or 3) taking into consideration what others think and concluding that they are right. Exactly which one you should pick should be decided entirely by internal consensus. Since the best course of action for one situation is not necessarily the best for another, I am not going to present a general solution of the form "Always take into consideration what others are saying" or "Never completely disregard other people's thoughts". The only general rule of the form "Always do X" that I can provide, and guarantee to be true, is "Always make sure you wholeheartedly agree with what you do". The rest is largely situation-dependent.

One might ask "How do you resolve internal disagreements?" The answer is "Through trial and error". Basically, you come up with a proposal (an idea about what to do) and then you observe how you feel about it. If it doesn't feel completely right, you throw it away and you look for another one. You keep repeating the process until you find one that completely agrees with you.

In general, it makes no sense -- indeed, it's not preferrable at all -- to not do what you believe you should do. Consider the alternative: doing what you don't believe you should do. How is that preferrable? Note that "doing what you believe you should do" is not the same as "disregarding what other people think". In fact, you might believe that in certain situations you should seriously consider what others are saying. Indeed, you might even believe that in certain situations you should take their word for it. But also, you might believe that in certain situations you shouldn't. And it is you who has to decide when and to what extent you want to listen to others and when and to what extent you should simply ignore them.

iambiguous wrote:But what are we trusting? Aren't they feelings no less fabricated existentially through years of indoctrination as children, through a unique sequence of personal experiences and relationships out in a particular world historically, culturally and circumstantially?


It's much more difficult to deceive someone who is "connected to himself" than someone who isn't. It's not impossible but it's significantly more difficult to do so.
Last edited by Magnus Anderson on Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

Mr. Reasonable
Magnus Anderson
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4789
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:26 pm

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby Berkley Babes » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:02 am

No magnes you don't get to
User avatar
Berkley Babes
 
Posts: 392
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:18 pm
Location: The Virtuplex

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby iambiguous » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:13 am

phyllo wrote:Indoctrination is experience. You are your indoctrinations as much as any other experience.


And since that is rooted in countless combinations of historical and cultural and circumstantial variables/contexts, we can expect this indoctrination to produce individuals who are all over the map morally and politically.

Similarly with the experiences we have as adults. There are those here who have lived lives that are very different from others. Their experiences predispose them to to embody value judgments they may or may not be able even to communicate intelligibly to others who have little or no understanding of the lives that they're led.

Isn't that basically what philosophers from Plato and Aristotle to Descartes and Kant to Wittgenstein and Nietzsche must contend with when making distinctions between authentic and inauthentic behaviors.

I've noted my own assessment of this. I merely suggest that we need to agree on a particular "situation" in which to compare and contrast conflicting assessments.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 39651
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby phyllo » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:53 pm

One starts out with a human being who has evolved over millions of years to have certain 'tendencies'.

Next ... indoctrination is not random. It has specific intentions.

Similarly ... human experience is not random. Humans have similar experiences because their biology makes them act like other human beings ... eat, poop, fuck, sleep on planet Earth shapes our experience.
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 12142
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby phoneutria » Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:08 pm

"and I believe that comes from the introduction of the state that so
dominates our lives and Hamlet's life...."

no
Hamlet's hesitation to kill
comes from the fact that he is christian
he doesn't speak of any concern for being arrested
to him denmark is a prison already
but he does fear the damnation of his soul

no idea what point you're making here
sounds like a biggie thread
but i had to correct that small point
once i saw it
User avatar
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 4084
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:57 pm

sorry to break it to you but killing a man does not damn your soul in the Christian faith nor does murder. the smears towards Christianity and the misinformation surrounding it in the 21st century is ridiculous.
MY STEP DADDY SATIRE::: excessive sensitivity to setbacks and rebuffs;
tendency to bear grudges persistently (i.e. refusal to forgive insults and injuries or slights);
suspiciousness and a pervasive tendency to distort experience by misconstruing the neutral or friendly actions of others as hostile or contemptuous;
a combative and tenacious sense of self-righteousness out of keeping with the actual situation;
recurrent suspicions, without justification, regarding sexual fidelity of spouse or sexual partner;
tendency to experience excessive self-aggrandizing, manifest in a persistent self-referential attitude;
preoccupation with unsubstantiated "conspiratorial" explanations of events both immediate to the patient and in the world at large.
Includes: expansive paranoid, fanatic, querulant and sensitive paranoid personality disorder.
User avatar
polishyouthgotipbanned
Thinker
 
Posts: 502
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:47 am

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:05 pm

Christians are right about the human nature and nature of evil and the modern left and the Ancient Greeks were wrong...Roman Catholics and protestants believe the human nature is tainted with sin and evil and that there are humans with natures evil enough to warrant hell and to be beyond retribution but that is left for god the almighty to judge at Peters gate and any man can have hope of retribution and forgiveness during confession if his intent is honest and his soul is redeemable.
MY STEP DADDY SATIRE::: excessive sensitivity to setbacks and rebuffs;
tendency to bear grudges persistently (i.e. refusal to forgive insults and injuries or slights);
suspiciousness and a pervasive tendency to distort experience by misconstruing the neutral or friendly actions of others as hostile or contemptuous;
a combative and tenacious sense of self-righteousness out of keeping with the actual situation;
recurrent suspicions, without justification, regarding sexual fidelity of spouse or sexual partner;
tendency to experience excessive self-aggrandizing, manifest in a persistent self-referential attitude;
preoccupation with unsubstantiated "conspiratorial" explanations of events both immediate to the patient and in the world at large.
Includes: expansive paranoid, fanatic, querulant and sensitive paranoid personality disorder.
User avatar
polishyouthgotipbanned
Thinker
 
Posts: 502
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:47 am

Re: Hamlet and Abraham... a connection?

Postby phoneutria » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:17 pm

polishyouthgotipbanned wrote:sorry to break it to you but killing a man does not damn your soul in the Christian faith nor does murder. the smears towards Christianity and the misinformation surrounding it in the 21st century is ridiculous.


That is irrelevant to my post
Which aimed to contextualize
Hamlet's state of mind
According to the novel
User avatar
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 4084
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Next

Return to Philosophy



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users