carl sagan: quote unquote

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carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby iambiguous » Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:40 pm

Below is a quote from Carl Sagan provided to us by d0rkyd00d over at Joker's fulminating fanatic rant thread here: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 3&t=196591

"The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance.” ― Carl Sagan


I call them objectivists myself. But even the objectivists themselves can be more or less informed, more or less intelligent, more or less articulate.

Here, however, the "celebration of ignorance" is on a colossal scale.

Well, you know, if I do say so myself. I don't deny that my own assessment here is any less an existential contraption rooted in dasein and encompassed in my own set of political prejudices. But I'd like to believe that I do aim more for substantive exchanges.

That's why I propose to the objectivists that we take their own value judgments and explore them given this framework:


1] there is a "real me" and there is a set of moral and political values that encompass objectively "the right thing to do". You thought it was one thing, then another, then another.

2] there is no "real me" and there is no set of moral and political values that encompass objectively "the right thing to do". Instead "I" here is embodied subjectively/existentially in dasein, in moral and political prejudices...in the arguments I make for it/this in my signature threads; and specifically in this thread: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529 .


And this part:

Also, once you change your moral and political frame of mind, you are acknowledging that you were once wrong about the is/ought world around you. And, once you acknowledge this, you are acknowledging that, sure, you might be wrong again. You are acknowledging that, yeah, given new experiences, new relationships and access to new information, knowledge and ideas, you might be prompted to change your mind again. And again.

And this part:

So, what I suggest is that we focus in on a particular set of circumstances in which we can examine our respective moral and political philosophies. Given all of the points we raise above.

And, most important of all, I'm less interested in what you or I believed/believe regarding all of the things you and I were/are, and more interested in how exactly you and I would go about demonstrating to others that all rational men and women are obligated to think and feel the same.


And especially this part:

You say that "here and now" you are a ________________________________________________________

Okay, let's zero in on a particular context, a particular set of "conflicting goods" in which as this you now choose one set of behaviors that you would not have chosen as one of the many things you once were previously.

As this relates to my own interest in philosophy: morality here and now, immortality there and then.

And as it relates to your interests.


And, here, the lowest common denominator element revolves not just around the fulminating fanatics, but also the yak, yak, yak, social media crowd. An "exchange" often consists of one or two lines here, one or two lines there. Basically "bullshitting".
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby Berkley Babes » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:05 pm

There seems to be at least two types or layers of ignorance.

One: You could know something, assuming there is something to know, but you don't.

Two: You do know something, but you choose to (or are fated to) ignore, root word of ignorance, whatever is ultimately already known.

As for dumbing down, that seems to refer to the first type. However that is assuming that true, actual, real knowledge can be had. Generally, that is assumed. Although, the philosophy of knowledge can be debated and has been examined by far greater minds than my own.

As for Two, that type is more mysterious. How can we conceptualize things like perfection or permanence, when our experience only allows for imperfection and what is temporary? Unless, we knew of it and experienced it before our being born. Maybe our souls come from some heavenly state to begin with.

Anyway, Carl's quote seems to reflect the first type, in which case we are obliged to "play along," while we ignore the second type.

Is dumbing down a problem? Yes. But maybe not. Did I bullshit good enough?
Last edited by Berkley Babes on Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:08 pm

Most suffer from type 2, Willful ignorance based on man’s fears or man’s greatest sin which may be self deceit. Self deceit and fear in man remind me of a mobius strip, one side flipping to the other side of the same coin in a sense.
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby Berkley Babes » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:11 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Most suffer from type 2, Willful ignorance based on man’s fears or man’s greatest sin which may be self deceit.



Or maybe the trauma of being thrust into the physical body caused some type of intended amnesia, for the short while. Restored upon return.
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:15 pm

We begin with a clean slate, old soul intact, to progress beyond being a man but if man cannot overcome his fears his self deceit, how will he ever progress past the limits he places on himself? Isn’t the unknown our greatest fear? Is death the worst that can happen? That last question reminds me of the 80s movie Mindwarp in the magnitude of its self responsibility.
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby Berkley Babes » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:23 pm

WendyDarling wrote:We begin with a clean slate, old soul intact, to progress beyond being a man but if man cannot overcome his fears his self deceit, how will he ever progress past the limits he places on himself? Isn’t the unknown our greatest fear? Is death the worst that can happen?



I do fear it. But I'm probably a little more curious than afraid. If, and I suppose it's a big IF around these ILP parts, that heaven is a better realm, than death is not the worst thing that can happen.

As for self deceit, it may be a benefit to die, so to speak, before our actual death. So I've heard. I still hang on to an ego, for now.
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:35 pm

Okay, let’s say Heaven is absolute radiant peace, feeling whole...would you be satisfied to only feel one way forever, even if it was the greatest feeling? Or would you grow to miss the spectrum of feelings?
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby Berkley Babes » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:41 pm

Because I caught a glimpse of heaven or some aspect of it through medtitation, I remember wanting it forever, feeling like it was forever, but also doubting that it was forever. To be honest, I fear re-incarnation sometimes more than the death of my current life. So I'm a forever cat.

How about you?
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby iambiguous » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:44 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Most suffer from type 2, Willful ignorance based on man’s fears or man’s greatest sin which may be self deceit. Self deceit and fear in man remind me of a mobius strip, one side flipping to the other side of the same coin in a sense.


We'll need a context, of course. You pick it.

In other words, you seem to have missed altogether this part: "I'd like to believe that I do aim more for substantive exchanges."

Ignorance of what? Fear and deceit in regard to what point of view regarding, say, the arguments that Joker makes regarding Trump's disappointing decision not to pursue a new "civil war".

Let's make this a more substantive exchange.

Either in this intellectual framework...


1] there is a "real me" and there is a set of moral and political values that encompass objectively "the right thing to do". You thought it was one thing, then another, then another.

2] there is no "real me" and there is no set of moral and political values that encompass objectively "the right thing to do". Instead "I" here is embodied subjectively/existentially in dasein, in moral and political prejudices...in the arguments I make for it/this in my signature threads; and specifically in this thread: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529 .


And this part:

Also, once you change your moral and political frame of mind, you are acknowledging that you were once wrong about the is/ought world around you. And, once you acknowledge this, you are acknowledging that, sure, you might be wrong again. You are acknowledging that, yeah, given new experiences, new relationships and access to new information, knowledge and ideas, you might be prompted to change your mind again. And again.

And this part:

So, what I suggest is that we focus in on a particular set of circumstances in which we can examine our respective moral and political philosophies. Given all of the points we raise above.

And, most important of all, I'm less interested in what you or I believed/believe regarding all of the things you and I were/are, and more interested in how exactly you and I would go about demonstrating to others that all rational men and women are obligated to think and feel the same.


And especially this part:

You say that "here and now" you are a ________________________________________________________

Okay, let's zero in on a particular context, a particular set of "conflicting goods" in which as this you now choose one set of behaviors that you would not have chosen as one of the many things you once were previously.

As this relates to my own interest in philosophy: morality here and now, immortality there and then.

And as it relates to your interests.


...or one of your own.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:05 pm

Berkley Babes wrote:Because I caught a glimpse of heaven or some aspect of it through medtitation, I remember wanting it forever, feeling like it was forever, but also doubting that it was forever. To be honest, I fear re-incarnation sometimes more than the death of my current life. So I'm a forever cat.

How about you?

Have you or will you start a thread about your glimpse of heaven? [-o< I need every detail.
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby Berkley Babes » Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:17 pm

WendyDarling wrote:
Berkley Babes wrote:Because I caught a glimpse of heaven or some aspect of it through medtitation, I remember wanting it forever, feeling like it was forever, but also doubting that it was forever. To be honest, I fear re-incarnation sometimes more than the death of my current life. So I'm a forever cat.

How about you?

Have you or will you start a thread about your glimpse of heaven? [-o< I need every detail.


It was simple. It began in the head chakra, on the crown. It appeared like a light or the snow cap of a mountain top, then it flooded downwards really fast into my body, so that I no longer had a body. I was part of the whole light. I didn't have thoughts for a short time, just felt the wholesome perfection. Then I felt what I can only describe as the masculine presence of god. This is despite the fact that I lean towards a dual gender god, an it, in my waking beliefs. It was goodness, or what I would call, supreme goodness which I then discovered was different than earthly goodness.

I don't want to start a thread about it because most people won't believe me.
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:24 pm

I’m searching for puzzle pieces about the nature of existence, gathering clues echoed in others. I may not undestand it all but I believe in astral projection of the soul raising and lowering onto other planes. I’m trying to get more details that correspond to my own happenings. I may continue to bug you for information as I do Ecmandu and others.
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby Berkley Babes » Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:30 pm

You can bug me about that stuff if you're curious. It only happened once.

As for astral projection, I don't know if this counts but I did some salvia divinorium, which is a hallucination drug that caused me to leave the room I did it in, and travel into another body in a different state. It only lasted 10 minutes. But it also involved remote viewing.

Not has healthy or as recommended as meditation, obviously.
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby Berkley Babes » Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:38 pm

I forgot to add there was the pervading feeling of acceptance which I found to be superior to what is suggested as God's forgiveness.
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:41 pm

Berkley Babes wrote:You can bug me about that stuff if you're curious. It only happened once.

As for astral projection, I don't know if this counts but I did some salvia divinorium, which is a hallucination drug that caused me to leave the room I did it in, and travel into another body in a different state. It only lasted 10 minutes. But it also involved remote viewing.

Not has healthy or as recommended as meditation, obviously.

I trust the meditation experience over drug induced even though both probably are affecting the soul/body combo in similar ways. Why did you leave Heaven? Astral projection is easier when you are hypomanic, you have and can wield positive energy easier. My body rejects illicit drug substances, it’s weird. Then I super overindulged, not taking the hint, to try to get some effect, and it’s the worst so I mark each one tried and on the never again list.
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby Berkley Babes » Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:48 pm

I left that Heavenly state not long after I began having my own thoughts again. My thoughts went like this . . . "Is this forever? This feels like forever. Is this forever?" The light then began to retract.

I even had a moment to ask to see if any loved ones were there. I looked to my left and in the midst of all the white I saw three slender tubes with still more white light inside, and I could feel who they were.

Heaven could be entirely different than my experience, that's why I say only a glimpse of some aspect of it.

I agree with you that peace is a feeling. And from that experience, I felt as though god were a feeling, as well.
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:00 am

Berkley Babes wrote:I left that Heavenly state not long after I began having my own thoughts again. My thoughts went like this . . . "Is this forever? This feels like forever. Is this forever?" The light then began to retract.

I even had a moment to ask to see if any loved ones were there. I looked to my left and in the midst of all the white I saw three slender tubes with still more white light inside, and I could feel who they were.

Heaven could be entirely different than my experience, that's why I say only a glimpse of some aspect of it.

I agree with you that peace is a feeling. And from that experience, I felt as though god were a feeling, as well.

Yeah, Peace is like an overwhelming drug that keeps you in slow motion until you adjust or attune. I struggled to think and got angry about being drugged. I didn’t try to make that or any experience happen, I was either soulnapped or my conscious energy aligned with that plane somehow. I like to believe...soulnapped (kidnapped).

So while there, you never thought of your body?
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby Berkley Babes » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:06 am

Nope, the body was gone. The white space expanded in infinite directions, my entire field of vision. It was as wholesome or as purely connected as I could ever conceive. Oneness.
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:13 am

Berkley Babes wrote:Nope, the body was gone. The white space expanded in infinite directions, my entire field of vision. It was as wholesome or as purely connected as I could ever conceive. Oneness.

No, what I was asking for is if you worried or wondered about your corporeal body? Like if it was okay or in distress. Now the place I went was all light too, but the light was the color of a dandelion and the place wasn’t small or huge feeling.
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby Berkley Babes » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:28 am

I forgot all about the very idea of a body. I don't remember it being a concern of mine at all. When I saw the tubes or the vessels of my loved ones, I didn't compare them to bodies of the past. I only contrasted the light that was in them to the light around them. A thin difference.

I'm not sure what to make of your colors or space.
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:28 am

You two are talking about our current construct. It’s different for everyone.

I’m an independent contractor hired by all of you to evaluate the old plan (and if it doesn’t work) make a new plan.

The types of experiences both of you explained were fleeting, but left an indelible print on you. That’s fine. We can do better.

I get frustrated with people who think they have insight into what everyone’s individual perfection is.

You have no fucking right to tell me what my individual perfection is just like I have no right to tell you what your individual perfection is. So let’s talk about it.

The cosmos is spirit first and foremost. The realm of imagination makes every omniscient being feel like an idiot. You’re asleep because you decided to be asleep in an existence where all of us who are never born and never die use the current plan to be the final solution to cure us of boredom.

I need to wake you up now, from your well deserved slumber, and reteach for a new plan and why it needs to be implemented.
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:34 am

Ecmandu wrote:You two are talking about our current construct. It’s different for everyone.

I’m an independent contractor hired by all of you to evaluate the old plan (and if it doesn’t work) make a new plan.

The types of experiences both of you explained were fleeting, but left an indelible print on you. That’s fine. We can do better.

I get frustrated with people who think they have insight into what everyone’s individual perfection is.

You have no fucking right to tell me what my individual perfection is just like I have no right to tell you what your individual perfection is. So let’s talk about it.

The cosmos is spirit first and foremost. The realm of imagination makes every omniscient being feel like an idiot. You’re asleep because you decided to be asleep in an existence where all of us who are never born and never die use the current plan to be the final solution to cure us of boredom.

I need to wake you up now, from your well deserved slumber, and reteach for a new plan and why it needs to be implemented.

Babe and I went into the emotion of peace, that’s not different.
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:36 am

Berkley Babes wrote:I forgot all about the very idea of a body. I don't remember it being a concern of mine at all. When I saw the tubes or the vessels of my loved ones, I didn't compare them to bodies of the past. I only contrasted the light that was in them to the light around them. A thin difference.

I'm not sure what to make of your colors or space.

Did you receive a black and white viewing, like a really fast movie, of your entire human life?
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby Berkley Babes » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:37 am

Ecmandu wrote:You two are talking about our current construct. It’s different for everyone.

I’m an independent contractor hired by all of you to evaluate the old plan (and if it doesn’t work) make a new plan.

The types of experiences both of you explained were fleeting, but left an indelible print on you. That’s fine. We can do better.

I get frustrated with people who think they have insight into what everyone’s individual perfection is.

You have no fucking right to tell me what my individual perfection is just like I have no right to tell you what your individual perfection is. So let’s talk about it.

The cosmos is spirit first and foremost. The realm of imagination makes every omniscient being feel like an idiot. You’re asleep because you decided to be asleep in an existence where all of us who are never born and never die use the current plan to be the final solution to cure us of boredom.

I need to wake you up now, from your well deserved slumber, and reteach for a new plan and why it needs to be implemented.


I am not trying to tell you what your individual perfection is like, which why I said it might be entirely different than my experience.
I got into meditation because of buddhism, not heaven or god, so the experience sort of came out of left field. Bliss is bliss, so I went with it.

Anyway, what's the new plan?
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Re: carl sagan: quote unquote

Postby Berkley Babes » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:40 am

WendyDarling wrote:
Berkley Babes wrote:I forgot all about the very idea of a body. I don't remember it being a concern of mine at all. When I saw the tubes or the vessels of my loved ones, I didn't compare them to bodies of the past. I only contrasted the light that was in them to the light around them. A thin difference.

I'm not sure what to make of your colors or space.

Did you receive a black and white viewing, like a really fast movie, of your entire human life?


No, once the light surrounded me, I didn't try recalling anything previous. I wish that happened, I'd love to see life on fast reel, but no. Did that happen for you?
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