The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holocaust.

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Re: The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holoca

Postby Zeroeth Nature » Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:47 pm

perpetualburn wrote:
Zeroeth Nature wrote:
Zeroeth Nature wrote:The heat death of the universe is [...] the end that never ends, just as the Big Bang is the beginning that never began.

[...]

My cosmology holds that the Big Bang is the beginning that never began, in the sense that the "beginning" of the Big Bang is an asymptote, a limit, something that would never be reached (even) if time was reversed! And likewise, the heat death of the universe (Big Chill, Big Freeze) is the end that never ends, not in the sense that it's an eternal standstill, but an eternal Standing-stiller ("Standing" in the dynamic sense, of "Causing-oneself or Being-caused to stand, to be static"—).


So the heat death of the universe is not so much the end that never ends, as the ending that never ends.

Also, from the very beginning (no pun intended) I've been perfectly well aware that it was rather the other way round than the way I put it:

As the Big Chill will be the ending that never ends, the Big Bang was the beginning that never began.


If the Big Bang was the beginning that never began, and the heat death is the ending that never ends, then what is the beginning that never stop beginning (wouldn't that be the opposite of the ending that never ends... what's the dynamic opposite of "Standing")


Well, in a way—and this is the reason I originally just used the present tense in both cases, instead of the past and the future tense—the Big Bang still is and the Big Chill already is... namely in the fundamental way of self-lightening (I'm dropping the Krellian capitalisation, for now at least).

The beginning that never began and the ending that'll never end aren't fictional; only their asymptotes, the start of the beginning and the end of the ending, are (ideal, not real).
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Re: The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holoca

Postby Zeroeth Nature » Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:43 pm

Jakob wrote:Come on now. I am, if I am anything, observant.


You are, if anything,—imaginative...

Anyway, Elaia was no less a mask than Zeroeth Nature is—or Sauwelios was, for that matter... Still, this particular mask marks the Abyss for me. And I think it's premature to call myself the Holochrist. By the way, did you guys realise this aspect of its meaning?:

"[T]he Christ-symbol lacks wholeness in the modern psychological sense, since it does not include the dark side of things but specifically excludes it in the form of a Luciferian opponent. [...] In the empirical self, light and shadow form a paradoxical unity. In the Christian concept, on the other hand, the archetype is hopelessly split into two irreconcilable halves[.]" (Jung, Aion, "Christ, a Symbol of the Self".)
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Re: The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holoca

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:55 pm

Jung talking about empirical...a psychologist already in a shaky and dodgy discipline(which only semi reliable results rely on statistics which is a purely mathematical field or neurobiology which is not psychology but biology) that has gone mystic and became even more odd and superstitious than Freud...religion is not a science and science is not a religion and spirituality is just a pretentious way of saying religiosity. on top of that philosophy has nothing to do with neither science or religion and is a separate discipline of the humans intellectual activity.
Kvasirs Mexican gay lover(writing about a need of committing a genocide on 99 percent whites and all non-whites as a Mexican mestizo himself):
And if they are not good, what could be wrong with the genocidal fantasy in my ‘Dies Irae’, published in Day of Wrath, with a vindictive Star Child calling home 500 million Caucasoids (and of course, all non-whites, including Jews) to, ironically, make sure that Dave Lane’s words be fulfilled with the remaining Aryans?.
My step-dads schizophrenic diagnosis:
I see a disease taking over....I will not stay silent. I will do what I can, when I can.
If we do not stand then we shall fall....and the enemy will win.

Remember: the world will end, all there is that is left is to fly between Canada and Greece and have barbecues and drink vodka before you wake up at 40 and remember to have a son who will be 30 when you are 70 and whos children will be 20 when you are 90. paGAYn as fuck.
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Re: The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holoca

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:05 pm

you know...questions like what kind of life is worth living...or what is good...or what is a good life...that is a legitimate question that a lot of humans ask themselves and which science cant answer...but philosophy can, so it attempts at doing so. and religiosity is yet another discipline that has to do with faith, with belief without evidence(the only belief there is) and logic(because machines can easily do logic) that most humans also experience and have a need for...and religiosity deals with death also, yet another part of human needs and experience.
Kvasirs Mexican gay lover(writing about a need of committing a genocide on 99 percent whites and all non-whites as a Mexican mestizo himself):
And if they are not good, what could be wrong with the genocidal fantasy in my ‘Dies Irae’, published in Day of Wrath, with a vindictive Star Child calling home 500 million Caucasoids (and of course, all non-whites, including Jews) to, ironically, make sure that Dave Lane’s words be fulfilled with the remaining Aryans?.
My step-dads schizophrenic diagnosis:
I see a disease taking over....I will not stay silent. I will do what I can, when I can.
If we do not stand then we shall fall....and the enemy will win.

Remember: the world will end, all there is that is left is to fly between Canada and Greece and have barbecues and drink vodka before you wake up at 40 and remember to have a son who will be 30 when you are 70 and whos children will be 20 when you are 90. paGAYn as fuck.
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Re: The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holoca

Postby Jakob » Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:28 pm

perpetualburn wrote:
Jakob wrote:That's all very moral of you.


So only someone who continues to use drugs is holy and immoral?

How does that follow?

My point is that most drugs are criminally overrated by the "esoteric" cult sect.

You mean Crowley?
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Re: The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holoca

Postby Jakob » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:08 am

Zeroeth Nature wrote:
Jakob wrote:Come on now. I am, if I am anything, observant.


You are, if anything,—imaginative...

Im visionary. I only see what is true, which is greater than what dreamers and romantics imagine and far more frightening as well. Im unromantic in my visions.
It's you the solipsistic talent who, out of imaginative softness, shirks back from the brutality - and the beauty - of reality.

Anyway, Elaia was no less a mask than Zeroeth Nature is—or Sauwelios was, for that matter... Still, this particular mask marks the Abyss for me. And I think it's premature to call myself the Holochrist. By the way, did you guys realise this aspect of its meaning?:

I feel like we are on a Venetian ball.

"[T]he Christ-symbol lacks wholeness in the modern psychological sense, since it does not include the dark side of things but specifically excludes it in the form of a Luciferian opponent. [...] In the empirical self, light and shadow form a paradoxical unity. In the Christian concept, on the other hand, the archetype is hopelessly split into two irreconcilable halves[.]" (Jung, Aion, "Christ, a Symbol of the Self".)

The whole christian dichotomy of light and dark as moral qualities is sickly. Nothing can redeem that. Christianity cant be turned into something healthy, as its very foundation is sickness.

Nietzsche said it is to the discredit of the northern European peoples that in defiance of Christianity they did not invent new Gods. Well I did invent a new God in 2011 upon the finding the clarity of VO - but in fact this turned out to be only an introduction to the return of the old Gods; Odin retreated to the North, into the mists of Niflheim, at the stenches of christianity. But, despite your and perpetualburns insistence on holding on to christianity, the truest of the stench has disappeared, as Nietzsche heralded, since the turn of this century. Indeed, in 2015 I Fixed Cross was granted a vision to the North; As is the case with vision and not with mere imagination, the elements in the poem all are, as it turns out, attributed in lore to Feoh. I did not know that. I knew nothing of my religion then, other than feeling in the marrow my bones that it is mine.

Hail Odin.

I hope you find your gods and become something unto-yourself. The sliver of seriousness in that Jedi post was the picture of King Arthur, as I suspect you have Celtic forebears vying for dominance in your Orlog. I think you ought to grant them that dominance. Nothing to the discredit of the immensely powerful Hindu Gods - but they can never wash the christianity out of you, as they arent truly yours.
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Re: The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holoca

Postby perpetualburn » Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:20 am

Jakob wrote:How does that follow?


You weren't taking a jab at me by calling my reply to Parodites "moral"? Anyways, if my view on drugs (which is that they're for the most part useless once you've exhausted curiosity) is "moral" (i.e bad), then an "immoral" (good) position would be one of continual experimentation throughout life without ever exhausting interest.


You mean Crowley?


I mean anyone that buys too much into the spiritual benefit of the drugs I listed. Normal dreaming (without any drugs in your system) is far superior to even powerful psychedelics (that don't lead to ego death), let alone something like marijuana or alcohol which only reduces the clarity of dreams. If you drink too much, it literally kills your ability to dream. I'm not saying drugs have no use at all... I'm just saying the ones I listed, for me at least, are overrated. I have had some positive experience on marijuana and psychedelics, but I exhausted all use I had for them a long time ago.

Why do you think I'm holding on to Christianity? I just shared my one and only Odin dream (who I think now is closer to Dionysus than Mercury).
As a pillar of rising smoke did my angel condescend and appear, standing without reserve on the exhausted banks of infinite sorrow.

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Re: The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holoca

Postby Zeroeth Nature » Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:56 pm

Jakob wrote:
Zeroeth Nature wrote:
Jakob wrote:Come on now. I am, if I am anything, observant.


You are, if anything,—imaginative...

Im visionary. I only see what is true,


No, you're delusional. I take it now it was in a "vision" that you saw my supposed reaction—unless it was that you saw I had removed the name Zeroeth Nature from my Facebook (only for a day or so), which however I didn't do in order to revert to Elaia (which has long been your obsession—or even better, to go back to 1996!...), but on the contrary, because of that thing I said about Elaia also being a mask.

You're delusional, maybe even psychotic, because you can't separate what exists only in your mind from what exists in the world you share with other minds. Thus you've long thought that it mattered whether I wrote a post or an email under the name of Sauwelios or another name; the truth, however, was that that name irritated you and that irritation coloured your reception of the writing in question.


"[T]he Christ-symbol lacks wholeness in the modern psychological sense, since it does not include the dark side of things but specifically excludes it in the form of a Luciferian opponent. [...] In the empirical self, light and shadow form a paradoxical unity. In the Christian concept, on the other hand, the archetype is hopelessly split into two irreconcilable halves[.]" (Jung, Aion, "Christ, a Symbol of the Self".)

The whole christian dichotomy of light and dark as moral qualities is sickly. Nothing can redeem that. Christianity cant be turned into something healthy, as its very foundation is sickness.


Yeah, I don't mean light and dark as moral qualities, of course. The Holochrist is Dionysus, whom Nietzsche basically calls the Überchrist in WP 1051:

"[T]o overcome everything Christian through something supra-Christian [überchristlich], and not merely to put it aside—for the Christian doctrine was the counterdoctrine to the Dionysian[.]" (Kaufmann translation.)


Nietzsche said it is to the discredit of the northern European peoples that in defiance of Christianity they did not invent new Gods.


You're probably thinking of section 19 of The Antichrist. If so, you're wrong: he says there that it's to their discredit that they did not reject ("defy") Christianity, and that as a consequence they hadn't invented any new gods since then.


your and perpetualburns insistence on holding on to christianity,


It's rather your insistence that we insist on that...


I hope you find your gods and become something unto-yourself. The sliver of seriousness in that Jedi post was the picture of King Arthur, as I suspect you have Celtic forebears vying for dominance in your Orlog. I think you ought to grant them that dominance. Nothing to the discredit of the immensely powerful Hindu Gods - but they can never wash the christianity out of you, as they arent truly yours.


Quite arrogant, as usual. Anyway, I'm reminded of Jung's essay on Wotan, where he suggests that Nietzsche's Dionysus be really Wotan, and writes:

"It was not in Wotan’s nature to linger on and show signs of old age. He simply disappeared when the times turned against him, and remained invisible for more than a thousand years, working anonymously and indirectly. Archetypes are like riverbeds which dry up when the water deserts them, but which it can find again at any time. An archetype is like an old watercourse along which the water of life has flowed for centuries, digging a deep channel for itself. The longer it has flowed in this channel the more likely it is that sooner or later the water will return to its old bed."

What you suggest I do is to let the water of my life return to my deepest riverbed. Now you may be right that the Hindu gods in their particularity (e.g., their attributes, the things they hold in their hands etc.) are alien to me, and that the old European gods are much more familiar. However, what struck a chord in me about the Hindu gods is precisely their relative universality, their reflecting something much deeper than particular gods like Wotan and(!) Odin. The Hindu gods reminded me on a visceral level of the shamanism underlying all religion (yes, including Germanic and Norse religion, of course). Ultimately my "God" is Brahman or the Adi-Buddha—though you may be right again that from there I need to find a really specific incarnation thereof. For me the most obvious however is Kalki and the like—the Messiah, the Mahdi, Maitreya Buddha, depending on people's specific cultural frame. At any rate, Tsongkhapa writes:

"When you try to identify the object to be refuted, you must investigate how the innate mistaken view of the self holds that the self is real because it possesses an inherently real essence. [... T]hose who have the faculty of wisdom should understand that the referent object of innate ignorance is [i.e., ought to be] the basic object of negation and should not devote themselves merely to refuting imaginary constructs that are imputed only by the advocates of philosophical tenets. [...] What binds all living beings in cyclic existence is innate ignorance; acquired ignorance exists only among those who advocate philosophical tenets, so it cannot be the root of cyclic existence." (Source: the same Wikipedia article linked to before.)

In other words, the basic object of negation is precisely the deepest riverbed, the archetype of the self, the subject, the soul-atom. But then, I'm a reverse bodhisattva as I said, writing recently:

'I now think the supreme human, the highest pleasure, wills the greatest suffering and inequality, the human fragments, cripples and gruesome accidents, not for the sake of future human greatness, not for the sake of the complementary human of the future, but because his human-superhuman pleasure simply consists in the human-all too human aching for the superhuman—, for (comm)union with the superhuman.' (Cf. https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=178180)

It is this aching for the superhuman of which gods like Odin are reflections. To be sure, it's precisely such mysterious and paradoxical gods that best reflect the Abyss, the Ayn (Soph (Aur)). As I wrote somewhat less recently:

'In Christian terms, maybe we can say that becoming alive to "God" (the abyss of freedom) is for the few, whereas most need some sort of "Christ":
"It will be seen that the lofty doctrines of the Upanishads are doctrines for the few: the Himalayas of the Soul are not for all. Men want a simple concrete God, or even a graven image of a god. They want a rule of life, and above all they want love. The later seers of the Upanishads saw this and in the Isha Upanishad we have ideas that we also find in the Bhagavad Gita." (Juan Mascaró, The Bhagavad Gita, Introduction.)'

And:

'[E]ven if a pan-human Ares and Aphrodite are possible (and perhaps twenty more gods to cover all twenty-two genders recognised today), those will be simple concrete gods compared to the abyss of freedom. (And blending all genders together into a single idealised "human" would not change this.) At best they can paradoxically be its reflection as well as its opposite.
"In the empirical self, light and darkness form a paradoxical unity. In the Christian concept, on the other hand, the archetype is hopelessly split into two irreconcilable halves[.]" (Jung, Aion, "Christ, a Symbol of the Self".)'

And lastly:

'[T]he problem with Christianity, from Neumann's point of view, is that it's not tribal or civic. Again from the same essay:
"The Church's cosmopolitan union was not for Emma [Bovary] who sought a worldly happiness in those narrower communities more in harmony with man's limited capacity of knowing and loving others." (op.cit., page 247.)

After my panhuman pleistocaust, let mankind be scattered again!
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Re: The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holoca

Postby Jakob » Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:03 pm

Okay man.

Maybe I was too harsh with you.
Last edited by Jakob on Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holoca

Postby Zeroeth Nature » Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:08 pm

Jakob wrote:Seems I hit a nerve.

In your mind, sure.
"Tragic art [...] is designated as reconciliation of Apollon and Dionysos: appearance [die Erscheinung] is given the most profound significance, through Dionysos: and yet this appearance is negated, and negated with pleasure./[...]/Happiness about existence is only possible as happiness about show [der Schein.]/Happiness about becoming is only possible in annihilation of the real[,] of 'existence', of beautiful semblance [Anschein], in the pessimistic destruction of illusion./[I]n the annihilation of even the most beautiful show, Dionysian happiness reaches its summit." (Nietzsche, workbook Autumn 1885-Autumn 1886 2 [110], my translation.)
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Re: The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holoca

Postby Jakob » Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:09 pm

It's okay man.
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Re: The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holoca

Postby Jakob » Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:20 pm

Plenty of people think you are a great writer.
Like Zoot Allures, who himself is very talented guy
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Re: The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holoca

Postby Jakob » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:36 pm

Im extremely harsh, have been, with you in particular.


I have no business ordering you around with respect to your ancestors, or gods.


Perpetual - I respect your visionary nature, your dreams etc. I dont share all of your views on mankind, but you dont deserve the contempt Ive shown you. You dont deserve contempt at all.
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Re: The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holoca

Postby MagsJ » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:09 pm

_
How very conscientious of you, Jakob.

I haven’t seen many of the newer Batman movies, but I’m sure they make for fantastic viewing.
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Re: The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holoca

Postby Jakob » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:12 pm

The Chris Nolan ones are admittedly quite strong.
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Re: The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holoca

Postby Zeroeth Nature » Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:16 pm

MagsJ wrote:How very conscientious of you, Jakob.

I haven’t seen many of the newer Batman movies, but I’m sure they make for fantastic viewing.


I actually agree with you for once.

As for Batman movies, I love both the Tim Burton ones (Batman and Batman Returns) and the Chris Nolan ones (Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, and The Dark Knight Rises). Note that I don't consider The Dark Knight the best of the Nolan ones, if only because of Maggie Gyllenhaal... Other than that, I can't rank them at this time, but I can rank the Terminator movies and series:

The Terminator: 9/10
Terminator 2: 10/10
Terminator 3: 7/10
Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles: 8/10
Terminator: Salvation: 3/10
Terminator: Genisys: 6/10
Terminator: Dark Fate: 8/10

Terminator Vs Jesus
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Re: The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holoca

Postby MagsJ » Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:31 pm

Zeroeth Nature wrote:
MagsJ wrote:How very conscientious of you, Jakob.

I haven’t seen many of the newer Batman movies, but I’m sure they make for fantastic viewing.


I actually agree with you for once.

Um, ok.. :shock:

As for Batman movies, I love both the Tim Burton ones (Batman and Batman Returns) and the Chris Nolan ones (Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, and The Dark Knight Rises). Note that I don't consider The Dark Knight the best of the Nolan ones, if only because of Maggie Gyllenhaal... Other than that, I can't rank them at this time..

I can’t actually remember any of them.. tho I did actually watch the first few releases. It was a long time ago, I guess.

The recent Gotham series was much more memorable and an addictive must-watch, for me. I was on a downer for months after it ended, then came to realise that I’d have to replace it with other shows, to fill the void.

but I can rank the Terminator movies and series:

The Terminator: 9/10
Terminator 2: 10/10
Terminator 3: 7/10
Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles: 8/10
Terminator: Salvation: 3/10
Terminator: Genisys: 6/10
Terminator: Dark Fate: 8/10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIeuBPDUzB0[/youtube] Terminator Vs Jesus

Lol.. how very Monty Python.
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Re: The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holoca

Postby Sculptor » Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:35 am

Zeroeth Nature wrote:Or: an Immortal Soul-o-caust. A summary of my Nietzschean religious philosophy.

Zeroeth Nature wrote:The way I see it—]

...

And it seems that is exactly where the problem is.
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Re: The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holoca

Postby Zeroeth Nature » Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:46 am

Sculptor wrote:
Zeroeth Nature wrote:Or: an Immortal Soul-o-caust. A summary of my Nietzschean religious philosophy.

Zeroeth Nature wrote:The way I see it—]

...

And it seems that is exactly where the problem is.


Deep!
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Re: The Holochrist: Saving the Holocene with an Xtian Holoca

Postby Zeroeth Nature » Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:21 am

Note for future readers: the discussion of eternal return and related matters continues in the "When Nietzsche Took Cocaine" thread:

https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?p=2808462#p2808462
"Tragic art [...] is designated as reconciliation of Apollon and Dionysos: appearance [die Erscheinung] is given the most profound significance, through Dionysos: and yet this appearance is negated, and negated with pleasure./[...]/Happiness about existence is only possible as happiness about show [der Schein.]/Happiness about becoming is only possible in annihilation of the real[,] of 'existence', of beautiful semblance [Anschein], in the pessimistic destruction of illusion./[I]n the annihilation of even the most beautiful show, Dionysian happiness reaches its summit." (Nietzsche, workbook Autumn 1885-Autumn 1886 2 [110], my translation.)
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