Value

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Re: Value

Postby obsrvr524 » Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:02 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:Trouble is, I am not sure that's how KT interprets that word.

I gave up on that one. I decided I wasn't helping so take it away. :)
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Re: Value

Postby Silhouette » Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:18 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:There are two questions to be answered and they happen to be rather simple.

1) What is value?
(Or: What is the definition of the word "value"?)

2) Are there true and false values?
(Or: Are there objective values and perceived values?)

The following is a list of expected participants:

2) Silhouette (Experientalism)

You won't be surprised to hear that I deal with "value" in terms of experience.

Value is an experience, a "discrete experience". It's fairly fundamental, but not overly: as with all things, for something to exist as value does, Existence must precede it. Experience is the concrete form of "Existence as an abstract concept". Experience is fundamentally continuous, and value could easily be conceived as the reason for breaking up that continuity into discrete experiences - but it's not that simple.

Experience seems to have "the intellectual breaking down of continuity into discretes" built into it. The original continuity can be reviewed in hindsight for verification, but it seems like a kind of default reflex to immediately break it down into isolated aspects that can subsequently be thought of as interacting with one another. Yet it requires self-awareness to "evaluate" this process as a process of "valuing" - that's a complication.

There's the "doing" of breaking down experience into discretes, and then the initial awareness of doing so necessarily follows this. And then, subsequently to this awareness, one can then "actively" break down experiences into discretes in accordance with how they're already conceiving of "themselves" and "their identity" - and only THEN is such a process recognised as valuing, and this recognition of valuation then feeds back into that sense of identity dialectically in a feedback loop.

So valuation, according to Experientialism is a dialectically constructed experience, founded in experience.

In hindsight, it can be conceived as though the valuation was there from the beginning, but this disregards the whole construction of the initial recognition of valuation in the first place. This oversight can easily confuse cause for consequence, which is known as the fallacy of questionable cause, or more specifically: "Cum hoc ergo propter hoc", which translates as "with this, therefore because of this".

Hopefully that outlines an answer to the first question, at least in extremely broad terms.
The second question is about whether there are true or false values.

I think the better paradigm for such a question is in terms of "consistent" and "inconsistent" values, which of course implies degrees of relatively more or less consistent valuations.
The question then becomes about what it is against which values are consistent or inconsistent. The answer is Continuous Experience. To recap, that is the nature of Experience as the concrete form of Existence - as the most fundamental substance of existence, before it is divided up into discrete experiences. This fundamental disconnect between the continuous and the discrete necessitates that perfect consistency is impossible. The utility of discrete experiences is in the ability to arrive at a model that best intellectually approximates Continuous Experience. Some models are experientially worse than others, which can be tested. As with the survival of the fittest, the better models endure and the worse models die out - and in that sense, "values" are naturally selected. So long as people continue to honestly test discrete experiences against Continuous Experiences, values can be more true (and less false).
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Re: Value

Postby thinkdr » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:06 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:Yet another very basic subject, one which has been discussed who knows how many times in the past.

I am starting this thread in order to see where each one of the active forum members currently stands on the issue.

There are two questions to be answered and they happen to be rather simple.

1) What is value?
(Or: What is the definition of the word "value"?)
Here's my answer to the first question:

Magnus wrote:Value is the degree to which something is useful in attaining one's goals.




Magnus, are you claiming that only things have value? Or, are you saying that this individual who lives down at the other end of the hall in my condo -- say his name is Bertrand Prentice -- because I have no use for him to reach any of my goals, has no value?

What I am implying is that "value" has more meaning than merely use-value (or utillity.) There are all kinds of value: the value of appreciating an artifact on display in a museum for its historical value; the value of human life of someone who is totally disabled with muscular distrophy; the beauty of a musical etude; the value of a treatise in philosophy that is well-written; a joke. a pun, or a wiscrack that makes me laugh; etc., etc.
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Re: Value

Postby Magnus Anderson » Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:25 am

thinkdr wrote:Magnus, are you claiming that only things have value? Or, are you saying that this individual who lives down at the other end of the hall in my condo -- say his name is Bertrand Prentice -- because I have no use for him to reach any of my goals, has no value?


Hi there.

I am unable to answer your first question because I don't understand what "Only things have value" means.

As for the second question, the answer depends on how you define the word "use". I define the word "useful" as something the use of which will bring someone closer to attaining their highest goal. (I wonder whether people understand what I mean by that.) That said, if Bertrand won't help you get closer to attaining your highest goal, he's of no value to you.

The term "highest goal" refers to the end goal i.e. to the goal that is not subordinated to any other goal. In other words, it is not a goal that is posited in an effort to attain some other goal. Another way to define it is as one's idea of the ideal universe. The term is defined in such a way that it implies that he who has no highest goal is completely indifferent to life i.e. every imaginable universe is equally preferable to him as every other.
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Re: Value

Postby Dan~ » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:28 pm

1) What is value?
(Or: What is the definition of the word "value"?)

2) Are there true and false values?
(Or: Are there objective values and perceived values?)


1 : A breed of mental space that is part instinct, part developed thought.

2 : There is true and false everything.
People that embrace truth don't limit it to abstractions.
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Re: Value

Postby Magnus Anderson » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:01 pm

Silhouette wrote:You won't be surprised to hear that I deal with "value" in terms of experience.


I don't understand your distinction between continuous and discrete experience. Ecmandu started a thread on experientialism a while ago where I replied to one of your posts (that you posted elsewhere.) Perhaps you should respond to it?
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Re: Value

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:07 pm

Silhouette,

I don’t see that the discrete is fundamentally at odds with the continuous. Existence is not going to stop existing. We are a subset of all of existence and we’re here. The discrete is necessary to abstract existence.

But look at it this way...

1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8...

Discrete but continuous. On the continuum; never stops.
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Re: Value

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:30 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Silhouette,

I don’t see that the discrete is fundamentally at odds with the continuous. Existence is not going to stop existing. We are a subset of all of existence and we’re here. The discrete is necessary to abstract existence.

But look at it this way...

1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8...

Discrete but continuous. On the continuum; never stops.


I want to add to this post actually...

I’m going to do some implication (mindreading) on where silhouette is coming from...

Silhouette is probably thinking about how everything is continuous on a number line, that you can never get from one number to the next because of infinitesimals. I’ve seen several people in these boards state outright - silhouette and Magnus for 2, that bound infinities exist. If infinities are bound, then they are discrete, and if there are an infinite number of bound infinities, then there is no contradiction to the continuous and discrete.

So, you guys pick up the slack on how experientialism relates to value.

I want to reiterate though, existence is never going to stop existing.

We have a proof for that. We exist. Our existence and time and everything is just a SUBSET of existence... if the superset goes *poof*, us as subsets couldn’t be here. It’s impossible.
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Re: Value

Postby Silhouette » Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:26 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:
Silhouette wrote:You won't be surprised to hear that I deal with "value" in terms of experience.


I don't understand your distinction between continuous and discrete experience. Ecmandu started a thread on experientialism a while ago where I replied to one of your posts (that you posted elsewhere.) Perhaps you should respond to it?

My response.

As for this numberline thing, the specific numbers might be "on" a continuous line, but as specifically "1", "2" etc. - that's discrete. "1 and not anything else even infinitessimally smaller or larger" is discrete, even though it lies on a continuous line that passes through "1", and all other numbers even infinitessimally smaller or larger than specifically "1".

If we don't perform the exercise of dividing up the continuous number line into specific discrete numbers, that numberline is just a continuous line with no meaningful distinction. Nothing can be said about it until we isolate defined numbers that we can then say lie on this line.

This is the same thing that we do when we isolate any specific experiences as being "of a particular thing" - along/within the continuity of Experience. Experience as a whole continues to be continuous, yet we intellectually divide it into parts in order to be able to talk about it with precise defined meaning.
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Re: Value

Postby obsrvr524 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:33 pm

Someone is conflating "continuous" with "contiguous".
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Re: Value

Postby MagsJ » Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:44 pm

Following still, but have nothing to add for now.
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Re: Value

Postby Silhouette » Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:48 pm

I like contiguous, thanks.

However, continuous conveys my meaning better - uninterrupted as opposed to joined together. Joining together implies initial separation but rejoined - like we do with discrete experiences. Continuous is prior to any such separation, held as one complete absolute. Look into the respective word derivations to see that "continuous" serves my purposes better, but thanks for your constructive suggestion.
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Re: Value

Postby obsrvr524 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:57 pm

Silhouette wrote:I like contiguous, thanks.

However, continuous conveys my meaning better - uninterrupted as opposed to joined together. Joining together implies initial separation but rejoined - like we do with discrete experiences. Continuous is prior to any such separation, held as one complete absolute. Look into the respective word derivations to see that "continuous" serves my purposes better, but thanks for your constructive suggestion.

I thought that you had used "continuous" properly.
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Re: Value

Postby Silhouette » Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:16 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:I thought that you had used "continuous" properly.

You thought correctly.
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Re: Value

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:31 am

And so here we go...

The ancient Greeks had aether and eternal forms.

The end of the infinite reduction not in the name of god.

We still don’t have better theories to this day.
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Re: Value

Postby obsrvr524 » Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:51 am

Ecmandu wrote:And so here we go...

The ancient Greeks had aether and eternal forms.

The end of the infinite reduction not in the name of god.

We still don’t have better theories to this day.

I don't think that is true. I have seen pretty convincing reasoning to establish the resolve of the Greek paradoxes involving infinity. Although all of that seems to be a different topic.
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The Critical Ground of Value

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:24 am

I believe the most critical ground of value is the individual's survival which extends to the group's survival.

There is nothing of 'value' to a dead person.
A normal person, where in a life or death situation will exchange whatever is of value to him for a chance to survive as long as he can.

Whatever is the value of anything to a person, it is relative to the above as standard re life or death.
Thus if, say, to be alive is given a standard value of 100/100 and death = 0, then the value of his house would be say 40/100 which he will certainly give up in exchange to stay alive as long as he can.
So even if the person owns the 'Mona Lisa' which economically and financially is priceless, its real value to a person could only be 75/100 where he would have no qualms to give it up if caught in a life and death situation with his 'Mona Lisa' [merely a piece of canvas with paints] at stake.

The above principle is applicable to anything which is regarded as having value but such values are relative to the mother of all values, i.e. survival.

Obviously there are exceptions to the above, but they are regarded as outside the range of normality (note Normal Distribution).
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Re: Value

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:21 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:In other words, you can't say "Ice cream is good" but you can say "Ice cream is good for X" where X is someone. The former statement is nonsensical, so it has no truth value. The latter makes sense and it has truth value that is independent from what anyone thinks about it.
I would say 'good to x' but otherwise I agree. People may not value what is good for them, by their own criteria. In situations where they themselves have conflicting values, which I see as rather common.
But beliefs are not necessarily values. [..] Beliefs and values are very different entities ontologically. I can believe that the earth circles the sun on an ellipse. That's not a value. I might not care at all about that or find it even bothersome, but hold it's true.


Beliefs are most definitely not values though they can be of value and they can be about values.
And even when they are not.

I am not sure why you are talking about beliefs above.


Because it is beliefs that are either true or false. Of course, we also use these words -- "true" and "false" -- to describe things that are not beliefs (e.g. values) but such a use is not a literal one.
NOT a literal one. Sorry if I missed this before. I was taking you literally...as in
2) Are there true and false values?
I would say no. But that's taking it literally.

"True value" is merely a short version of "What's really of value to someone".
Now, we're talking.

"False value" is merely short for "What's not really of value to someone".
OK. Now I can reset the whole conversation.

Perhaps I introduced some confusion by speaking of true and false values in the opening post of this thread, but in my defense, such a liberal use of language isn't unheard of. It is not rare for people to speak of true and false kings (and kings aren't beliefs), true and false gods (gods aren't beliefs either), true and false needs (needs neither), false friends (these are neither people nor beliefs but words) and so on.
All I care about is that a step was made towards understanding.

So, I am sitting on my backporch and bird flies by and I value this experience more than the one before the bird gracefully flew by, I did something to remind myself of....?


I am not sure what's going on behind the scenes in that particular case but in many cases the process of appreciating (= enjoying) art is for the most part nothing but the work of art informing us of things that we'd like to have in our lives.
It can certainly do that ALSO.

I don't eat icecream I like to remind me of something. I don't move toward a person I am drawn to to remind myself of something.


Note the part that is bolded and underlined:

Magnus wrote:And yes, I do not believe that listening to music, looking at pictures and reading stories is an end in itself. It is a means to an end. We do these things in order to remind ourselves of things that we'd like to have in our lives.


I think that listening to music is also an end in itself. Or, for me, being in the woods. I am not doing it for an end, though it may or may not have positive effects.

The expectation of future happiness usually makes one happy in the present (:
Right but that's not mutually exclusive with not having everything as a means to an end. I am not just living for the future, because if I am when I get to any goal it is just another means, only.
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Re: Value

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:21 am

double
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Re: Value

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:35 am

Silhouette wrote:Value is an experience, a "discrete experience".

Could you give me an example? I can't quite get what a separate experience of value would be, though I am not sure what it is discrete from.

It's fairly fundamental, but not overly: as with all things, for something to exist as value does, Existence must precede it.

It seems to me values arise as part of experience. There is no experience prior to values. Some things are preferred, some sought, others disliked, comfort sought, discomfort avoided or disliked.


There's the "doing" of breaking down experience into discretes, and then the initial awareness of doing so necessarily follows this. And then, subsequently to this awareness, one can then "actively" break down experiences into discretes in accordance with how they're already conceiving of "themselves" and "their identity" - and only THEN is such a process recognised as valuing, and this recognition of valuation then feeds back into that sense of identity dialectically in a feedback loop.
I think we are born or even conceived we already have values, preferences. Not blank slates. I don't think we need to be conscious of these, certainly not in verbal terms, though organism is aware on some level.

Though I may be missing what you mean, and also perhaps using value in a different sense.

I think the better paradigm for such a question is in terms of "consistent" and "inconsistent" values, which of course implies degrees of relatively more or less consistent valuations.
Yes, once you start bringing in terms like true and false, I think it can only makes sense in relation to other values. If one believes there is a central value or prioritized values, then in relation to that or those values another value might be false, perhaps. But not in general, universally or objectively on its own.
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Re: Value

Postby phyllo » Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:52 pm

A person has hundreds of goals.

There's no way that all the values associated with those goals are going to be consistent.
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Re: Value

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:19 pm

phyllo wrote:A person has hundreds of goals.

There's no way that all the values associated with those goals are going to be consistent.
I agree, though there is also something to be said for wrestling with many of the conflicts in there.
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Re: Value

Postby phyllo » Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:05 pm

Sure. But a person wrestles with his/her own conflicts which come from his/her own goals. He/she comes to a personal compromise.

I'm not sure how useful it is to talk about objective values for someone other than yourself ... and to tell someone that his/her values are objectively wrong/right.
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Re: Value

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:11 pm

phyllo wrote:Sure. But a person wrestles with his/her own conflicts which come from his/her own goals. He/she comes to a personal compromise.
Or it's an ongoing process that doesn't resolve, at least not in total. Sometimes, of course, one might feel motivated to deal with important (to oneself or people close to you) value clashes. If you enjoy doing something that clashes with an important value resolution (not just comprimise) might be the only thing that feels good or not unendurable.

I'm not sure how useful it is to talk about objective values for someone other than yourself ... and to tell someone that his/her values are objectively wrong/right.

I don't like the phrase 'objective values'.
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Re: Value

Postby phoneutria » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:26 pm

hahaha get a hold of this
philosophers discussing value
in 2020 anno domini
should I read the thread
is my mind going to be blown?
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