philosophy and death

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Re: philosophy and death

Postby Meno_ » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:30 am

Iambigious said:

"Clearly, if God here was predicated on the "intellectual" assumption that "universals or abstract objects exist objectively and outside of human minds", than anything goes. If you can think it up, it exists. It's only a matter then of stumbling out of the cave and naming the objects."




Sure , one can do along with the actual form that simulates the post modern sense of it taken literally.

However, inducing an abstract representation , processes any other deconstruction, it forgets the cumulative structural background of the evolving idea.

It seems almost irrelevant to point to Jesus' existence, for He assumes a role, a script, that became almost a foreseeable event, .

God, the Father did in fact became Man, through the Son, who needed to learn His language, in order to understand his own soul.

The soul became the transcendent object of his own self consciousness, as the reflexive turning point, from the initial narcissistic punishment of the self,

The metamorphosis occured, and that primal event would have become It's own Being, if that did not happen.

So, it couldn't have not happened !


Why?


Why and how did myths attain universal significance in our lives, that have stood their significant ground, as shadowing the biblical account of the advent of consciouness, and now of Superconsciousness, in the new, mechanistic form?
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Re: philosophy and death

Postby iambiguous » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:57 pm

Dying At The Right Time
Morgan Rempel wonders whether there is a good time to die.

Nietzsche’s Death

As surely as bad timing compromises the death of Jesus according to Nietzsche Zarathustra, I propose that the matter of timing likewise causes Nietzsche’s own death to fall on the bad side of Zarathustra’s ledger. For dying too early is only one way that poor timing can make for a less-than-successful death, according to Zarathustra. The other, of course, is dying too late.


Zarathustra's ledger. Your ledger. My ledger. The ledger of anyone. How could any ledger pertaining to the "timeliness" of Nietzsche's death amount to anything other than a subjective assessment rooted in dasein? Now, sure, there are actual facts about his death that can or cannot be established as true objectively. Just as there are facts about his life. But in judging either his life or his death as more or less this or more or less that, while perhaps not entirely futile, will certainly come to junctures in which sets of assumptions unable to be pinned down definitively will result in any number of [at times] heated discussions and debates.

While Nietzsche in fact died at the age of 55 in 1900, it is the sad circumstances surrounding his illness and death which bring to mind Thus Spoke Zarathustra’s admonitions to those who “hang on… too long” and as a result, fail to master “the difficult art of going at the right time.” As is well known, Nietzsche was plagued by steadily deteriorating health since his youth. A litany of physical symptoms: acute myopia, ever-worsening bouts of nausea and other gastro-intestinal problems, and agonizing headaches, contributed to him resigning his promising professorship in 1879, at the age of only 34. By the mid-1880s, Nietzsche’s wretched condition, compounded by his ongoing efforts to self-medicate, left the increasingly isolated philosopher bed-ridden for days at a time. In January 1889, at the age of 44, Nietzsche collapsed on the streets of Turin, and lapsed into madness for the rest of his life [see p.38].


The other side of the coin. It's decided that you died too early, or too late or at just the right time. But what about the actual death itself. The "set of circumstances" you have to experience when it is all finally over. To what extent did Nietzsche's mental state allow him even to grasp oblivion?

You tell me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich ... %80%931900)

He died of pneumonia but he also suffered from dementia. And words like insanity and madness pop up. So perhaps he was all but oblivious to the prospect of oblivion itself. And isn't that the sort of death that many others would want for themselves? I know that I would.

Yet, again, if you were to stop a hundred people at random on the street and ask them which sets of circumstances they would themselves prefer to face at death, you are likely to get lots of different answers. In other words, right to the very end, "I", in many crucial contexts, remains the embodiment of dasein.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy and death

Postby sacrosanct » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:39 am

to philosophize is a ritual every human being engage in everyday. to die is an inevitable phenomenon no one can prevent to not happen as per se living a normal life is impossible to some however possible to others for society is defined by heritage and ethnicity. dying for normal reasons is a cause no one can define however dying abnormally is not to engage with disease stricken improbabilities. wanting to die and not wanting to die is subjective for every humanitirian rationalizing the humanities intrinsically.
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Re: philosophy and death

Postby promethean75 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:43 am

How could any ledger pertaining to the "timeliness" of Nietzsche's death amount to anything other than a subjective assessment rooted in dasein?


It's actually a subjective assessment rooted in Heineken. N said himself that german metaphysics was owed to beer, and it's not for nothing that Ns been elevated to an almost metaphysical, mythical status.
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Re: philosophy and death

Postby iambiguous » Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:13 pm

Dying At The Right Time
Morgan Rempel wonders whether there is a good time to die.

What brings to mind Zarathustra’s warnings about the ‘too late’ deaths of those who “hang on… too long” is the fact that the insane Nietzsche went on to live for another eleven years, with each year bringing greater mental and physical incapacity. By 1900, the year of his death, the 55-year-old Nietzsche was barely able to move, and had essentially no knowledge of where he was, who he was, or who he had been.


How on earth to grasp let alone grapple with this as something that was a "good" thing for him or a "bad" thing. He's barely in his mid forties when everything starts to fall apart for him [both physically and mentally] but at the end how much in touch was he with all the things that death would take away...or the fact that he was tumbling over into the abyss that was oblivion. He never had to stare into the abyss as most of us will.

Me, I'm all for dementia before I go. But just not yet.

While no-one wishes death upon a 44-year-old, it seems clear that according to Zarathustra’s criteria, Nietzsche would have died a better death had he expired in the streets of Turin in 1889 rather than only end his sane life there.


Our problem here though is we have no idea what it was like to be inside his head over those 11 years. Was there considerable more pain than pleasure, considerable more suffering that satisfaction? You tell me. Based on everything you have garnered in regard to his condition. Even afflicted physically and mentally, one can still have access to things that make life worth living. It's just that there are so many different variables to consider in so many different sets of circumstances isn't it really all rather futile for philosophers to tackle it? Other than in intellectual contraptions like the authors?

Recognizing this, Nietzsche’s Zarathustra, comparing men to apples, prophetically proclaims:

“Many too many live and they hang on their branches much too long. I wish a storm would come and shake all this rottenness and worm-eatenness from the tree! I wish preachers of speedy death would come! They would be the fitting storm and shakers of the trees of life!”


Of course this too is just the reflection of but one man who, based on the life that he lived, had come to think this. Others may be quite content to weather the storm given lives that to them are still worth living. In fact, an aphoristic assessment of this sort reminds one that Nietzsche basically divided the world up between "one of us" [the ubermen] and "one of them" [the flocks of sheep].

So, what are other men and women obligated to "recognize"? Not being apples, for example.

Unfortunately, even if Nietzsche had died in Turin in 1889, his noteworthy lack of immediate intellectual heirs would seemingly still have prevented him attainting the consummating death Zarathustra lauds and Socrates embodies. But at least he would have been spared the ‘double death’ that was his fate. At least, to use Zarathustra’s imagery, the long-suffering philosopher would not himself be counted among those who hang on to the branches of life so long as to become ‘rotten’ and ‘worm-eaten’.


And here one can well recognize why the Nazis might be drawn to this sort of thinking. And then taking it as far as the Final Solution for the "apples" that they insist are hanging on the branches far longer than they deserve to.

"The consummating death"? Is this something philosophers have any business at all addressing.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
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Re: philosophy and death

Postby iambiguous » Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:04 pm

Death & The Philosopher
Raymond Tallis on philosophical attitudes to non-being.

I have recently been rereading Thomas Nagel’s The View from Nowhere (1986). In the more than thirty years since its publication, the standing of this relatively slim volume has grown steadily. To borrow a metaphor that George Santayana applied to Spinoza, “like a mountain obscured at first by its foothills, he rises as he recedes.” Yet it is dispiriting how many contemporary intellectual trends – materialist theories of the mind and evolutionary epistemology to name only the most fatuous – have continued to flourish despite Nagel’s demonstration of their inadequacy.


We'll need a context of course.

At the heart of The View from Nowhere is one of the key issues in philosophy, and, indeed, in our lives. It is that of reconciling our necessarily local, even parochial, subjective viewpoints with the objective standpoint whose most developed expression is science. How do we square – or even connect – the view from within, according to which we are of overwhelming importance, with the view from without, which sees us as insignificant in a vast universe? Nagel pursues his response to this existential challenge, that “reality is not just objective reality” (p.87), with consummate skill, imagination, and much self-questioning.


Here of course any context at all merely confronts us with the enormous -- staggering -- gap in reconciling what we think we understand about any context and how that context would be understood by someone with an ontological grasp of existence itself.

Here, however, the gap is narrowed down to reconciling what any of us think we know about death [our own death in particular] and what one would need to know about the metaphysical parameters of Existence.

Even if we admit the irreducible reality of our subjective experiences of ourselves and of what is beyond ourselves, the tension between those experiences and the objective view remains. It becomes a source of anguish when we look at our lives from the Archimedean point of our own death. It is this to which Nagel devotes the final section of his masterpiece. He writes:

“The ultimate subject-object gap is death. The objective standpoint simply cannot accommodate at its full subjective value the fact that everyone, oneself included, inevitably dies”


Of course one way in which to reduce the existential anguish is through God and religion. Our subjective experiences become just another manifestation of God. And in regard to both life and death. It's all covered. Thus, Archimedes, Nagel, the author and anyone of us can make points as mere mortals. But those points about death often do bring anguish.

Philosophically, there is some comfort to be had in the gap. It is so enormous, we just don't know the fate of "I" on "the other side". So nothing then can really be ruled out.

So, until a God, the God chooses to reveal Himself, or until science and/or philosophy discovers the whole truth about what awaits us "there and then", I'll stick to what "for all practical purposes" works for me: distractions.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
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