nihilism

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Re: nihilism

Postby iambiguous » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:11 pm

satyr wrote: Some people still do not understand my positions even when I've repeated them a thousand times in a dozen different ways.


Tell me about it! Mine too!! You know, here!!!

Well, okay, maybe not in a dozen different ways: 8)

satyr wrote: Nihilism is a defensive reaction TO the emergence of self-cosnciuosness.
Memetics evolution proceeds from genetic evolution...and then exceeds it so as to guarantee and reinforce the sheltering effects with double and triple levels of contingency.


Allow me to translate this for you:

Nihilism is an intellectual contraption that has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to actual human interactions.

On the other hand, sure, if anyone here speaks "serious philosophy" fluently and would like to make an attempt to note its relevance to their own interactions with others, by all means, give it a shot.

satyr wrote: blah blah blah
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: nihilism

Postby iambiguous » Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:15 pm

You know how this works.

1] He posts something at KT
2] I ridicule it as an intellectual contraption
3] he reads that and then posts yet another intellectual contraption

As though to mock me. Or, sure, to mock himself.

Here's the latest:

satyr wrote:Nihilism is the memetic shroud that conceals genetics.
It infects all levels of human interaction with an ideological framework that negated, i.e., denies the relevance of biology and inheritance.
Nihilism is a school of thought, a pool of memes, that dismisses genetics either completely or arbitrarily.
It is at the foundation of Abrahamic morality and postmodernism.

Attitudes toward race and gender and homosexuality are by-products of nihilism.
The fact that the majority now regurgitate the lie that race and sex are social constructs is its defensive ideological response to the indifference and brutality of natural selection, and the rejection of traditional methods attempting to reinvent family and sexual relationship to accord with postmodern morality.


Now, again, for those here who speak his "serious philosophy" fluently, what on earth is he telling us here about nihilism in regard to, say, that which he and I discussed when, according to Wendy, he makes his annual "Christmas visit" to ILP.

The subjects being gender roles and sexual preference.

Here are the arguments that I made:

Now, what are we able to establish here in terms of "Objectivity bad...subjectivity good." Insofar as rational arguments might be made in regard to behaviors deemed good/moral and behaviors deemed bad/immoral.

If, in regard to gender roles and sexual preference, something can be established as objectively true for all of us, that is something that those on both sides can agree on.

And then it would come down to our reactions [morally and politically] to that which can be demonstrated to in fact be true for all of us objectively.

And my point here is not that subjectivity is bad, but that for each of us as individuals, our value judgments in regard to gender roles and sexual preference seem to involve a complex intertwining of genes and memes as they interact over time historically and across space culturally...given any number of unique sets of circumstances that each of us as individuals might find ourselves in.

This in a world that is ever evolving in a sea of contingency, chance and change. A world in which we can never be entirely certain from day to day which new experiences or relationship or idea might prompt us to change our minds about gender roles and sexual preferences.


Again, this has already been discussed time and again. Yes, the fundamental biological purpose of fucking is to reproduce the species. And if you look at lions and tigers and bears, not much has changed over hundreds of thousands of years. But: has human sexuality been exactly the same since we were living in caves? Do human females only come into "heat" at certain times of the years so that men can battle each other -- to the death? -- in order to claim the exclusive right to fuck them. And then the part in human sexual relationships that involve complex emotional exchanges, deep friendships and bonding in many, many different ways. Things that gay couples can experience no less so than heterosexual couples.

In other words, is or is not human sexuality infinitely more complex and convoluted?

As I noted on another thread...

...just as a small percentage of the population is born left handed rather than right handed, who is to say that for reasons science has yet to pin down definitively, nature allows for some to be congenitally attracted to those of the same sex. Sexually, emotionally or otherwise.

And if only a relatively small percentage of the population is congenitally attracted to the same sex, how would that stop the larger percentage of heterosexuals from reproducing the species? I'm a father of a daughter myself. And she and the man she lives with have a son.

On the other hand, suppose human sexuality was such that, whenever someone even attempted to have sex with another of the same gender there was not even the possibility of feeling aroused? Nature was adamant about that in such a way that biologically we could only feel sexually aroused by a member of the opposite sex?

Or suppose nature was such that as with other species of animals there were no sexual feelings at all among human beings until the "mating season"? The fact is that sex is extremely pleasurable. And there is nothing inherently "unnatural" about human beings pursuing it for reasons other than precreation.


So, how would he construe my points here as nihilism? And how does he actually go about demonstrating that his own arguments -- being just intellectual contraptions -- are not lies?

How are the points I make not reasonable?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: nihilism

Postby iambiguous » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:26 pm

Let's focus in on this point:

satyr wrote:Nihilism alters the environmental dynamics that shift what mutations are advantageous, disadvantageous and neutral...most often they filter out - they socially deselect - mutations that contradict its underlying ideology/dogma...which is anti-nature.


Now, with nature, the mutations have no teleological font. Unless you believe this is God. They just happen biologically given the brute facticity embedded in the evolution of life and existence. And, depending on the context, for, say, lions as predators and zebras as prey, it's good news for one or the other.

But it's not like the lions and the zebras go online and, philosophically, discuss the implications of it.

It's all basically instinct.

But, in regard to gender roles and sexual preference, how exactly does nihilism work/unfold "for all practical purposes" within our own species.

This because unlike with lions and the zebras, the "mutated" behaviors can also revolve around historical, cultural and circumstantial/experiential memes. Human beings [given free will] have the capacity to weigh in on what is thought to be or not to be "biological imperatives".

Thus, for those animals wholly lacking in memes, biological imperatives are everything. Just not so for our own species. With human beings, gender roles and sexual preferences encompass a vast, vast panoply of conflicting options.

Naturally, as it were.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: nihilism

Postby iambiguous » Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:56 pm

satyr wrote: Nihilism is the mind acting no behalf of the body's impulse to survive.
The brain evolved to multiply the probability of survival, and procreation is a form of overcoming mortality, so it becomes an additional factor in the mind's evaluations.
Nihilism is a defensive reaction to what threatens its survival, and tis well-being. It places survival about all other considerations, above integrity, honesty, clarity etc. It prefers to not see than to see and by seeing perish.


Again, he refuses to actually make this brand new "intellectual contraption" applicable to the subjects that I proposed: gender roles and sexual preferences. Nor does he situate it out in the world of actual flesh and blood human beings interacting in another context where value judgments precipitate behaviors that come to clash precipitating in turn actual consequences that reverberate far beyond merely a world of words precipitating yet another world of words.

He is a "serious philosopher" and that is just not done!

So, all I can do is to ask anyone here who speaks "pedantic intellectual" fluently, to embody his ideas in regard to feminism and homosexuality. What makes them part of the nihilistic "modernism" that is flagrantly opposed to what nature intended.

Given that conflicting assessments of gender roles and sexuality have been around now for thousands of years and the species keeps reproducing new generations just like it always has.

Also, if we can do something -- anything -- and we are a part of nature, how can it be said to be "unnatural". It is as though Nature was this actual entity that existed [like God] and you could go to it and ask if same sex fucking and women running a government was inherently and necessarily Unnatural.

Note to Satyr: You're up at KT. And I double dare you to come down out of the clouds.

satyr wrote: blah blah blah
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: nihilism

Postby iambiguous » Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:35 pm

Have We Regressed into Nietzsche’s “Moral Nihilism”?
Steven Mintz, aka Ethics Sage

Nietzsche’s view of morality assigns great intrinsic value to the flourishing of “higher man.” Higher types are solitary and deal with others only instrumentally. Thus, a human being who strives for something great considers everyone he meets along the way as a means to an end, in direct opposition to Kantian ethics. Could this be a good characterization of all the crazies in the U.S. who have shot up schools, places of worship, and in the workplace?


Who really knows if this actually is what Nietzsche meant in regard to morality. Especially when the focus does shift to a particular context. Also, from the perspective of those who do shoot up schools, places of worship or workplaces, their own motivation and intentions might be deemed by them to be anything but the embodiment of crazed behavior. In fact, for some, their behavior can be seen by them to be quite the opposite of nihilism. On the contrary, from their frame of mind their behavior, anchored to one or another "kingdom of ends" is defended as entirely moral.

Nietzsche challenges the idea of a morality as bound up with obligation, with codes and rules. He encourages individuals to think for themselves beyond conventional morality. His brand of ethics has been referred to as moral “nihilism.” Nihilism comes from the Latin nihil, or nothing, which means not anything, that which does not exist. By this view, ethical claims are generally false. A moral nihilist would say that nothing is morally good, bad, wrong or right because there are no moral truths. So, murder is not wrong, but neither is it right.


Well, this moral nihilist would say that, sure, there might be an objective morality accessible to mere mortals. But this particular mere mortal here and now does not believe that there is. But: if other mere mortals [here at ILP for example] do believe that there is then let them note both an argument to encompass it and a demonstration, given a particular context, in which an attempt is made to note how "for all practical purposes" they might be able to convince others that if they wish to be thought of as rational and virtuous human beings they are obligated to concur.

You're up.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: nihilism

Postby Dan~ » Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:40 am

There are two kinds of nihilism:

1: Neutrality. Super passive. Silent. Desireless.

2: Anti meaning. Deconstructing and debunking virtually everything.
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Re: nihilism

Postby iambiguous » Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:33 pm

Dan~ wrote:There are two kinds of nihilism:

1: Neutrality. Super passive. Silent. Desireless.

2: Anti meaning. Deconstructing and debunking virtually everything.


We'll need a context of course.

Or are those things moot when you can encompass nihilism so succinctly in points like yours?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: nihilism

Postby Meno_ » Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:38 pm

Context is presupposed by text



Or, aesthetically, the foreground retains focus in spite of the background.



No 'practical way to reduct or induct this pretty down to earth, presently significant conclusion. ignorance of this 'law' is not excusable.
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Re: nihilism

Postby iambiguous » Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:53 pm

Let's recall that, with respect to nihilism, this exchange between Satyr and myself has come to revolve around his willingness to intertwine the points he raises about it with respect to both gender roles and sexual preference.

Or, sure, a "set of circumstances" all his own.

Instead, he is sticking with his "ponderous and preposterous intellectual contraptions".

So, if you are wondering if you might be a nihilist yourself in regard to these things and you go to him for advise, here is what he will tell you:

satyr wrote:Nihilism is the absolute - no matter how it is named and conceptualized - that is nowhere to be found, except in human minds, and negates man's experience with the multiplicity of existence.

Nihilism is the one, totalitarian, god of Abraham, and the one all-encopassing State of Globalism.
Exclusion is certain slavery and death, because there's nowhere to escape to. It is utter surrender to fate, for the sake of evading personal responsivity.

Nihilism is the noumenon, taken literally; the absolute idea existing only in the mind, represented by words/symbols, externalizing it.


Got that?

Well, okay, if you do, please convey to us how his description here is entirely in sync with the behaviors that you choose in regard to gender interactions and sexual preference. What specifically makes you a Satyrean nihilist here?

satyr wrote:blah blah blah
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: nihilism

Postby iambiguous » Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:57 pm

Meno_ wrote:Context is presupposed by text



Or, aesthetically, the foreground retains focus in spite of the background.



No 'practical way to reduct or induct this pretty down to earth, presently significant conclusion. ignorance of this 'law' is not excusable.


Once and for all: is this intellectual gibberish of yours just an act you perform here, a "condition", or do you truly imagine that your points are relevant to a discussion of nihilism that needs no contexts at all...other than the "text"?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: nihilism

Postby iambiguous » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:04 pm

Have We Regressed into Nietzsche’s “Moral Nihilism”?
Steven Mintz, aka Ethics Sage

Nietzsche criticizes the concept of universality as objectionable because agents are relatively different so a universal morality must necessarily be harmful to some.


And all one need do is to note the manner in which "agents" construe the world around them from very different historical, cultural and circumstantial perspectives. If there really was a "universal" morality able to be either discovered or invented don't you suppose philosophers, ethicists and political scientists would have announced it to the world by now.

Ah, but they have. Over and over and over and over and over again. Given one or another God, political ideology, deontological philosophical contraption, assessment of nature. Human history is bursting at the seams with universal moralities. Even Nietzsche, the moral nihilist, put his reputation on the line by inventing a No God teleology of sorts that revolved around the Übermensch. And isn't this just another rendition of "right makes might"?

That's the thing about a world that ever and always combines an ineffably complex intertwining of genes and memes in a "human condition" that never stops evolving amidst an avalanche of contingency, chance and change. As with God, if a universal morality didn't exist it would have to be invented.

After all, look at all the renditions of it here!!

He believes that a culture in which moral norms prevail, such as Kantian respect for persons, utilitarianism, and altruistic behavior, will be a culture which eliminates the conditions for the realization of human excellence – the latter requiring concern with the self, struggle, and suffering.


See how it works? Human interactions cannot be allowed to sink down into the "nasty brutish and short" mentality of might makes right. The fittest will survive but only because they deserve to. The masters are the masters not merely because that have the raw power to impose their will on the weak, but because they are inherently superior to the weak. It's not for nothing that folks like Ayn Rand brought elements of Nietzsche's thinking into their own intellectual models.

On paper, Nietzsche can be shaped and molded to fit all manner individual requirements. Again, look at all of the renditions of him here. Some by way of Satyr, others by way of Fixed Jacob and his "intellectual contraption" brood.

So, happiness, according to Nietzsche, is not an intrinsically valuable end because suffering is positively necessary for the cultivation of individual development and a fulfilling life – which is the only thing that warrants admiration for Nietzsche.


Therefore, we can focus in on a particular context and the Übermensch among us can inform us as to what is required of us if we wish to be included among their own own "one of us" clique/claque.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: nihilism

Postby iambiguous » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:48 pm

Have We Regressed into Nietzsche’s “Moral Nihilism”?
Steven Mintz, aka Ethics Sage

Instead of the belief that there are a set of values or course of action for all individuals, as assumed by conventional ethical reasoning, Nietzsche believed in one’s sovereignty – the ability to make our own choices based on our search for meaning.


So, it never occurred to him that individuals come in all shapes and sizes morally? That historical and cultural and experiential factors don't play critical roles when it comes down to how all of us are indoctrinated as children to view, among other things, everything under the sun? That the "search for meaning" is deeply embedded in the profoundly problematic confluence of social, political and economic variables that any particular one of us might be immersed in? Even an understanding of nihilism itself shifts over time as new factors come into play.

He believed that each of us needs to gain understanding, examine our own perspectives, and reflect on our experiences. Skepticism, in the sense of questioning and challenging our existing beliefs and values, according to Nietzsche, is part of a radical reevaluation of our values and transformation of who we are, which is an ongoing process all devoid of ethical concerns.


I can only try to imagine Nietzsche around today reacting to the manner in which I would deconstruct this sort of thinking. Gain an understanding of what particular conflicting good? And from what particular perspective -- liberal, conservative? Though, yes, reflect on our experiences. But what about the experiences of those who live lives very, very different from ours? Which set of experiences [often beyond our full understanding or control] matter most? In a sense, Nietzsche's frame of mind mirrors the attitude of those later existentialists who spoke of living "authentically". And, sure, up in an intellectual clouds where the "serious philosophers" live in a "world of words", an authentic life is always so much more readily encompassed...academically.

But what of the points I raise as a moral nihilist?

Perhaps someone here who is familiar with and a proponent of Nietzsche's own moral nihilism would be willing to discuss that with me.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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