Hardcore Ethics

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Re: Hardcore Ethics

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:03 am

thinkdr wrote:
Iamthegodoftruth wrote:There are multiple ethical approaches. It depends on your axioms and goals.

Okay. But would you grant that some approaches are better than others, and that some goals are more-valuable to us than are others?

An approach that contains variables in its formulation -- such as in its definition of "moral goodness," is better than one which does not; because it covers more territoy: it applies more widely. It is a function of what constants [what empirical examples or cases] are plugged in as an instance of each of the variables.

What do you think about the axiom and initial definition offered in The Structure of Ethics - which document is the first item mentioned in the References?As clearly explained in the College Course treatise, I use R. S. Hartman's Axiom of Value, which is his definition of the concept "good." {Specifically, he defines it contextually, as "X is a good C", i.e., X is a good instance of the concept C. C is the concept under which X falls, as framed by the judge of the value}

I believe fact and value are entangled and complementary, thus I reject the fact-value distinction.

Since you are onto to 'values' do you have an argument on how can you derive values from facts?
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Hardcore Ethics

Postby thinkdr » Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:23 am

[quote="Prismatic567]
I believe fact and value are entangled and complementary, thus I reject the fact-value distinction.
Since you are onto to 'values' do you have an argument on how can you derive values from facts?


There is a distinction between fact and value that is akin to a crevice at the top of a high mountain. That crevice opens up to an infinitely-deep abyss.
Fact and value are distinct concepts; however I will grant you that each stated fact is permeated with and surrounded by many values (such as biases), and the soundest value-judgments are based on empirical fact: the more factual evidence you can offer to back it up, the more confirmed and reliable is the valuation.

Actually, what R.S. Hartman defines is "x is a good (most-highly valuable)
C (instance of the concept named C) as valued by judge J, at time t." This is clearly explained in M.C. Katz, ETHICS: A College Course. Study that document and then let me know if you have a question.

As to your next point, yes I have an argument as to how values depend upon known facts. Creativity is a value. In the creative process, factual properties are rearranged to produce something new and creative.
Say we mention two properties such as green and soft. The creative mind will aright away come up with "a green sweater!" or "a scoop of pistachio ice-cream!" or both. And maybe even with a few other examples. If a third property must be considered, such as "edible"", then it narrows it down to the ice-cream.
When Velco tape [https://www.textol.com/] for example, was invented, some known facts were re-arranged to produce the new concept: that is creativity at work.
That is one way that value is derived from facts.


BTW Those who think "Donald Trump is doing a good job" for his country" either do not know the facts, or do not have good values [i.e., ethical values.]
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE STRUCTURE OF ETHICS
[NEW] :!:
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf


THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018)
http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf

LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BASIC%20ETHICS.pdf


ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

When you search Bing for the following pdf selection you may wish to start with page 20 in order to skip the technicalities:
Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course
thinkdr
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Posts: 853
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:05 pm

Re: Hardcore Ethics

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:08 am

thinkdr wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:I believe fact and value are entangled and complementary, thus I reject the fact-value distinction.
Since you are onto to 'values' do you have an argument on how can you derive values from facts?


There is a distinction between fact and value that is akin to a crevice at the top of a high mountain. That crevice opens up to an infinitely-deep abyss.
Fact and value are distinct concepts; however I will grant you that each stated fact is permeated with and surrounded by many values (such as biases), and the soundest value-judgments are based on empirical fact: the more factual evidence you can offer to back it up, the more confirmed and reliable is the valuation.

Actually, what R.S. Hartman defines is "x is a good (most-highly valuable)
C (instance of the concept named C) as valued by judge J, at time t." This is clearly explained in M.C. Katz, ETHICS: A College Course. Study that document and then let me know if you have a question.

As to your next point, yes I have an argument as to how values depend upon known facts. Creativity is a value. In the creative process, factual properties are rearranged to produce something new and creative.
Say we mention two properties such as green and soft. The creative mind will aright away come up with "a green sweater!" or "a scoop of pistachio ice-cream!" or both. And maybe even with a few other examples. If a third property must be considered, such as "edible"", then it narrows it down to the ice-cream.
When Velco tape [https://www.textol.com/] for example, was invented, some known facts were re-arranged to produce the new concept: that is creativity at work.
That is one way that value is derived from facts.


Noted and agree with your points re Fact and values.
I believe Facts are solidly entangled with Values thus interdependent and complementary.

Note Putnam's the Collapse of the Fact-Value Distinction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJxn-sqADUA

BTW Those who think "Donald Trump is doing a good job" for his country" either do not know the facts, or do not have good values [i.e., ethical values.]


As for Trump's performances against what he had promised, note the following FACTs;
https://www.promiseskept.com/
Therein is a VERY LONG list of Trump's accomplishments within his terms of employment.

I do agree Trump did not perform the best re the Covid19 [it is an embarrassment to the USA] but besides his own failing on this set back, there were also much resistance from his opponents.

Trump is definitely not perfect [but which past President was?] but relatively Trump has done his job effectively as expected within his terms of employment.
Being boorish, narcissistic, and other psychological negatives [not in the extremes] are not within his terms of employment as a servant of the US Government.

In his latest speech at the RNC, Trump promised to end "endless wars". Whether he can do it or not, at least he had put his reputation on the line and declared a promise very explicitly. Obviously this promise of ending 'endless wars' is a moral goal and he need to keep his promise is also a moral issue.

What you have failed here is to weigh things in balance rationally but rather is driven blindly by a very bias tribalistic impulse due to psychological reasons. Being a non-American I can be more rational and objective.

Have you read Jonathan Haidt's - The Righteous Mind.: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion

https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_the_moral_roots_of_liberals_and_conservatives?language=en
Psychologist Jonathan Haidt studies the five moral values that form the basis of our political choices, whether we're left, right or center. In this eye-opening talk, he pinpoints the moral values that liberals and conservatives tend to honor most.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
Prismatic567
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Re: Hardcore Ethics

Postby Meno_ » Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:18 pm

But being tribalistic is the political tour De force in the accepted way things are done here, with constituency perfectly accepting such unbalanced method of undermining their opponents.

It really does play out as 'politics as usual, 'and it is the opposite feigned effort to feign some supposed neutral objectivity which raises eyebrows.
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Re: Hardcore Ethics

Postby thinkdr » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:32 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:
thinkdr wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:I believe fact and value are entangled and complementary, thus I reject the fact-value distinction.
Since you are onto to 'values' do you have an argument on how can you derive values from facts?


There is a distinction between fact and value that is akin to a crevice at the top of a high mountain. That crevice opens up to an infinitely-deep abyss.
Fact and value are distinct concepts; however I will grant you that each stated fact is permeated with and surrounded by many values (such as biases), and the soundest value-judgments are based on empirical fact: the more factual evidence you can offer to back it up, the more confirmed and reliable is the valuation.

Actually, what R.S. Hartman defines is "x is a good (most-highly valuable)
C (instance of the concept named C) as valued by judge J, at time t." This is clearly explained in M.C. Katz, ETHICS: A College Course. Study that document and then let me know if you have a question.

As to your next point, yes I have an argument as to how values depend upon known facts. Creativity is a value. In the creative process, factual properties are rearranged to produce something new and creative.
Say we mention two properties such as green and soft. The creative mind will aright away come up with "a green sweater!" or "a scoop of pistachio ice-cream!" or both. And maybe even with a few other examples. If a third property must be considered, such as "edible"", then it narrows it down to the ice-cream.
When Velco tape [https://www.textol.com/] for example, was invented, some known facts were re-arranged to produce the new concept: that is creativity at work.
That is one way that value is derived from facts.


Noted and agree with your points re Fact and values.
I believe Facts are solidly entangled with Values thus interdependent and complementary.

Note Putnam's the Collapse of the Fact-Value Distinction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJxn-sqADUA

BTW Those who think "Donald Trump is doing a good job" for his country" either do not know the facts, or do not have good values [i.e., ethical values.]


As for Trump's performances against what he had promised, note the following FACTs;
https://www.promiseskept.com/
Therein is a VERY LONG list of Trump's accomplishments within his terms of employment.

I do agree Trump did not perform the best re the Covid19 [it is an embarrassment to the USA] but besides his own failing on this set back, there were also much resistance from his opponents.

Trump is definitely not perfect [but which past President was?] but relatively Trump has done his job effectively as expected within his terms of employment.
Being boorish, narcissistic, and other psychological negatives [not in the extremes] are not within his terms of employment as a servant of the US Government.

In his latest speech at the RNC, Trump promised to end "endless wars". Whether he can do it or not, at least he had put his reputation on the line and declared a promise very explicitly. Obviously this promise of ending 'endless wars' is a moral goal and he need to keep his promise is also a moral issue.

What you have failed here is to weigh things in balance rationally but rather is driven blindly by a very bias tribalistic impulse due to psychological reasons. Being a non-American I can be more rational and objective.

Have you read Jonathan Haidt's - The Righteous Mind.: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion

https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_the_moral_roots_of_liberals_and_conservatives?language=en
Psychologist Jonathan Haidt studies the five moral values that form the basis of our political choices, whether we're left, right or center. In this eye-opening talk, he pinpoints the moral values that liberals and conservatives tend to honor most.


If Trump proposes to end "endless wars why doesn't he do it right now? It is still under his watch that he permits the Afghanistan War {as well as much turmoil he is provoking in The Middle East} to go on.

And his propaganda site to which you refer us tells us he has accomplished much for jobs and the economy! So why don't the majority of U.S. residents feel prosperous and content? Is it possible that jobs are not available because people have been laid off - due to the marvelous economy :lol: :lol:
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE STRUCTURE OF ETHICS
[NEW] :!:
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf


THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018)
http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf

LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BASIC%20ETHICS.pdf


ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

When you search Bing for the following pdf selection you may wish to start with page 20 in order to skip the technicalities:
Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course
thinkdr
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Posts: 853
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:05 pm

Re: Hardcore Ethics

Postby Prismatic567 » Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:29 am

thinkdr wrote:If Trump proposes to end "endless wars why doesn't he do it right now? It is still under his watch that he permits the Afghanistan War {as well as much turmoil he is provoking in The Middle East} to go on.

And his propaganda site to which you refer us tells us he has accomplished much for jobs and the economy! So why don't the majority of U.S. residents feel prosperous and content? Is it possible that jobs are not available because people have been laid off - due to the marvelous economy :lol: :lol:

I am surprised with your rational thinking given that you were a professor, is it that your rational competence has eroded due to aging? Atrophy of brain cells is very natural with aging and it a question of how much and degrees.

Ending wars is not an easy task as merely clicking one's fingers and it will be done. Existing wars entail a complex entanglement of a multitudes of variables which take time to 'unknot'. We can judge him on his promise of ending wars in say 3 years time.

Trump had managed to secure peace between UAE and Israel which no President who attempted has succeeded [you'r ignorant of this?]. He is doing his best to achieve peace in the Middle East but again this is a very complex issue especially when Islam [inherently evil] is involved.

Propaganda site?? This is very open to fact checking and verification. Some claims may be too optimistic but I don't hear or read of any glaring lies therein.

Due to the Covid19 pandemic, lockdown, social distancing, and other hindrances, there is an economic downturn everywhere in various degrees and there are hardly an exceptions with any Nations in the world.

Therefore you should at least judge what Trump did before the Covid19 pandemic and based on that potential, what he can do after the end of the Covid19 pandemic when a vaccine is discovered.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
Prismatic567
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Posts: 2850
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:35 am

Re: Hardcore Ethics

Postby thinkdr » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:15 am

Prismatic567 wrote:
thinkdr wrote:If Trump proposes to end "endless wars why doesn't he do it right now? It is still under his watch that he permits the Afghanistan War {as well as much turmoil he is provoking in The Middle East} to go on.

And his propaganda site to which you refer us tells us he has accomplished much for jobs and the economy! So why don't the majority of U.S. residents feel prosperous and content? Is it possible that jobs are not available because people have been laid off - due to the marvelous economy :lol: :lol:

I am surprised with your rational thinking given that you were a professor, is it that your rational competence has eroded due to aging? Atrophy of brain cells is very natural with aging and it a question of how much and degrees.

Is it "rational thinking" to commit an Ad hominem Fallacy?

Ending wars is not an easy task as merely clicking one's fingers and it will be done. Existing wars entail a complex entanglement of a multitudes of variables which take time to 'unknot'. We can judge him on his promise of ending wars in say 3 years time.

[Why can't we judge him on his betrayal of our Kurdish allies? Why can't he order troops to come home right now?? He said, "If I have the opportunity, I will do x..." Well it seems to me that he has the opportunity immediately!!!

Trump had managed to secure peace between UAE and Israel which no President who attempted has succeeded [you'r ignorant of this?]. He is doing his best to achieve peace in the Middle East but again this is a very complex issue especially when Islam [inherently evil] is involved.

That is a sweeping judgment about billions of people. Many decent U.S. citizens were born into Islam as their focus of worship, and they don't need your insults and disrespect for how they come to, and find meaning in, That than which nothing is more valuable....namely, the value of the goodness of Goodness, also known as The Meaning of the Universe.


opaganda site?? This is very open to fact checking and verification. Some claims may be too optimistic but I don't hear or read of any glaring lies therein.


If one is not aware of the glaring lies in Trump's campaign site, does that mean they are not there? The site definitely is full of propaganda ! Am I the only one who noticed that? I doubt it.


Due to the Covid19 pandemic, lockdown, social distancing, and other hindrances, there is an economic downturn everywhere in various degrees and there are hardly an exceptions with any Nations in the world.

Therefore you should at least judge what Trump did before the Covid19 pandemic and based on that potential, what he can do after the end of the Covid19 pandemic when a vaccine is discovered.



Why not judge his handling of the entire Covid Pandemic? The spread of it occurred during his watch. What makes one believe that once a vaccine is discovered and extensively tested for safety [on at least 3000 volunteers] that will be the end of the Corona virus? Influenza is still around. Many folks do not want to put poison inside their body, for they see that as a dangerous practice, counter to good health. They are fussy what they ingest.


.
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE STRUCTURE OF ETHICS
[NEW] :!:
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf


THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018)
http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf

LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BASIC%20ETHICS.pdf


ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

When you search Bing for the following pdf selection you may wish to start with page 20 in order to skip the technicalities:
Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course
thinkdr
Thinker
 
Posts: 853
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:05 pm

Re: Hardcore Ethics

Postby Prismatic567 » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:56 am

thinkdr wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:
thinkdr wrote:If Trump proposes to end "endless wars why doesn't he do it right now? It is still under his watch that he permits the Afghanistan War {as well as much turmoil he is provoking in The Middle East} to go on.

And his propaganda site to which you refer us tells us he has accomplished much for jobs and the economy! So why don't the majority of U.S. residents feel prosperous and content? Is it possible that jobs are not available because people have been laid off - due to the marvelous economy :lol: :lol:

I am surprised with your rational thinking given that you were a professor, is it that your rational competence has eroded due to aging? Atrophy of brain cells is very natural with aging and it a question of how much and degrees.

Is it "rational thinking" to commit an Ad hominem Fallacy?

Ending wars is not an easy task as merely clicking one's fingers and it will be done. Existing wars entail a complex entanglement of a multitudes of variables which take time to 'unknot'. We can judge him on his promise of ending wars in say 3 years time.

[Why can't we judge him on his betrayal of our Kurdish allies? Why can't he order troops to come home right now?? He said, "If I have the opportunity, I will do x..." Well it seems to me that he has the opportunity immediately!!!

Trump had managed to secure peace between UAE and Israel which no President who attempted has succeeded [you'r ignorant of this?]. He is doing his best to achieve peace in the Middle East but again this is a very complex issue especially when Islam [inherently evil] is involved.

That is a sweeping judgment about billions of people. Many decent U.S. citizens were born into Islam as their focus of worship, and they don't need your insults and disrespect for how they come to, and find meaning in, That than which nothing is more valuable....namely, the value of the goodness of Goodness, also known as The Meaning of the Universe.


opaganda site?? This is very open to fact checking and verification. Some claims may be too optimistic but I don't hear or read of any glaring lies therein.


If one is not aware of the glaring lies in Trump's campaign site, does that mean they are not there? The site definitely is full of propaganda ! Am I the only one who noticed that? I doubt it.


Due to the Covid19 pandemic, lockdown, social distancing, and other hindrances, there is an economic downturn everywhere in various degrees and there are hardly an exceptions with any Nations in the world.

Therefore you should at least judge what Trump did before the Covid19 pandemic and based on that potential, what he can do after the end of the Covid19 pandemic when a vaccine is discovered.



Why not judge his handling of the entire Covid Pandemic? The spread of it occurred during his watch. What makes one believe that once a vaccine is discovered and extensively tested for safety [on at least 3000 volunteers] that will be the end of the Corona virus? Influenza is still around. Many folks do not want to put poison inside their body, for they see that as a dangerous practice, counter to good health. They are fussy what they ingest.
.

I believe to judge or do an employee appraisal, one need to take all the plus and minuses, put the appropriate weight on them then make the final judgment taking all relevant information into consideration.
As I see it objectively, Trump appraisal as a government servant is net plus over minuses.

It is true, on paper, the President there is 'no buck for the President to pass on' thus has to bear the responsibility.
But based on information, the Covid19 infection rates and deaths has to be looked into deeper before we assign reasonable responsibilities and accountability.

It is fact the USA has the highest rate of infection and death but if we look at the total statistics State wise, those states and cities controlled by Democrats has the highest rates of infection and death.
Surely as a American you understand the Federal Government do not have full control over the health matters within the State level.

If we look world wise, Brazil, India, Russia also has millions of infections albeit lesser millions. If the USA has 6 millions infections and the second nation has less than 10,000 or even 50,000 then we can squarely condemned the US has done terribly badly.

Yes, the infection and death rates in the USA are terrible and as the President, on paper, cannot pass the buck to anyone, but then on a deeper look I would not be so blind as to blame the President solely for the Covid19 numbers in this case.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
Prismatic567
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2850
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:35 am

Re: Hardcore Ethics

Postby thinkdr » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:52 pm

Not that anyone here cares how I feel, since this topic is not about me.....

I am sadly disappointed that someone who I was thinking about asking to cooperate with me on working out a better, a more-scientifically based, Ethics model, turned out to be a Trump supporter. And thus not ethically sensitive.

For if one is ethically sensitive one early on detects phoniness, inauthenticity; and is 'turned off' by it. {In all history, has a President been more selfish, more corrupt?}


When an individual identifies strongly with his own moral self, his uniqueness, his honesty, his sincerity he becomes more genuine, more moral. And as this happens the moral person is also better in his social roles (such as for example,, parent, teacher engineer), and is more systematic. For he is then more integrated as a personality. [By "systematic" here I mean: more self-disciplined, better at self-management; has more emotional control; is more at peace with himself; more adaptable to changing conditions, etc.] As Dr. R. S. Hartman once observed, the more you are genuinely yourself, the better you will be in your job, in your social role, and, in your thinking.

That is hardcore ethics :!: :!: 8)
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE STRUCTURE OF ETHICS
[NEW] :!:
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf


THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018)
http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf

LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BASIC%20ETHICS.pdf


ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

When you search Bing for the following pdf selection you may wish to start with page 20 in order to skip the technicalities:
Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course
thinkdr
Thinker
 
Posts: 853
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:05 pm

Re: Hardcore Ethics

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:29 am

thinkdr wrote:Not that anyone here cares how I feel, since this topic is not about me.....

I am sadly disappointed that someone who I was thinking about asking to cooperate with me on working out a better, a more-scientifically based, Ethics model, turned out to be a Trump supporter. And thus not ethically sensitive.

For if one is ethically sensitive one early on detects phoniness, inauthenticity; and is 'turned off' by it. {In all history, has a President been more selfish, more corrupt?}


When an individual identifies strongly with his own moral self, his uniqueness, his honesty, his sincerity he becomes more genuine, more moral. And as this happens the moral person is also better in his social roles (such as for example,, parent, teacher engineer), and is more systematic. For he is then more integrated as a personality. [By "systematic" here I mean: more self-disciplined, better at self-management; has more emotional control; is more at peace with himself; more adaptable to changing conditions, etc.] As Dr. R. S. Hartman once observed, the more you are genuinely yourself, the better you will be in your job, in your social role, and, in your thinking.

That is hardcore ethics :!: :!: 8)

I was willing to discuss morality, you were the one who is too impulsive to bring in Trump into the discussion.

I am not American, thus no reason to support Trump politically like you as an anti-Trump due to very strong psychological and emotional basis resulting from the Trump Derangement Syndrome.

Since you brought in Trump out of nowhere, what I have done is offering my objective views and I did not insist Trump is perfect. Personally I do like his boorish and narcissistic behaviors.
To be objective I am insisting we appraise Trump, US President or any employee in the world objectively based on their overall performances. That is the professional, rational and ethical thing to do.

In the present state around the world, the moral competence of the average person is very low since the inherent moral 'faculty' is unfolding very slowly.
To increase the moral competence/quotient of the average person, if say 100 point at present to 150 or 200, it will take a few or more generations in the future. Meanwhile we can only talk and discuss, thus no need to be so triggered by what Trump is doing.

Thus your present concern re Trump and the emotional stress triggered will not be very effective and thus is self-defeating. It would be more effective for you to forget about Trump totally and be mindful towards peace for oneself. [Buddhism].

In the meantime we can only talk about it but whatever the neural wirings within the brain of the average person must change to effect the increase in moral quotient.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
Prismatic567
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2850
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:35 am

Re: Hardcore Ethics

Postby thinkdr » Sun Sep 06, 2020 7:53 am

Prismatic567 wrote:
thinkdr wrote:... someone... turned out to be a Trump supporter. And thus not ethically sensitive. For if one is ethically sensitive one early on detects a phony, a con-artist, or a would-be P.T. Barnum: -- in all U.S. history, has a President ever been more selfish, more corrupt?

When an individual Intrinsically values himself, identifies strongly with his own moral self, his uniqueness, his honesty, his sincerity he becomes more genuine, more moral.
We are to keep growing morally - if we know our Ethics.
...the more you are genuinely yourself, "the better you will be in your job, in your social role, and, in your thinking"
accordiang to Dr. R.S. Hartman, a leading authority in Value Analysis.
.

Personally I do like his boorish and narcissistic behaviors. .

This latter sentence serves to confirm the case made earlier. Dr. Albert Bandura writes about Moral Integration. Our extremely-objective friend may lack such integration if he beholds a man -- who repeats a lie until it is a Big Lie [one that is repeated so often that gullible followers will eventually assume it to be true], and one who has authoritarian tendencies, who calls himself "a very stable genius" -- " and still gives such a character high marks.


Let us study and learn: what are the attributes of 'a good character'? And then, let's live up to that standard, and form the habits that comprise a good character. Let's be role-models. Let's set a good example.

:arrow: That is hardcore ethics :!:
.
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE STRUCTURE OF ETHICS
[NEW] :!:
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf


THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018)
http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf

LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BASIC%20ETHICS.pdf


ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

When you search Bing for the following pdf selection you may wish to start with page 20 in order to skip the technicalities:
Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course
thinkdr
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Re: Hardcore Ethics

Postby Prismatic567 » Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:53 am

thinkdr wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:
thinkdr wrote:... someone... turned out to be a Trump supporter. And thus not ethically sensitive. For if one is ethically sensitive one early on detects a phony, a con-artist, or a would-be P.T. Barnum: -- in all U.S. history, has a President ever been more selfish, more corrupt?

When an individual Intrinsically values himself, identifies strongly with his own moral self, his uniqueness, his honesty, his sincerity he becomes more genuine, more moral.
We are to keep growing morally - if we know our Ethics.
...the more you are genuinely yourself, "the better you will be in your job, in your social role, and, in your thinking"
accordiang to Dr. R.S. Hartman, a leading authority in Value Analysis.
.

Personally I do like his boorish and narcissistic behaviors. .

This latter sentence serves to confirm the case made earlier. Dr. Albert Bandura writes about Moral Integration. Our extremely-objective friend may lack such integration if he beholds a man -- who repeats a lie until it is a Big Lie [one that is repeated so often that gullible followers will eventually assume it to be true], and one who has authoritarian tendencies, who calls himself "a very stable genius" -- " and still gives such a character high marks.


Let us study and learn: what are the attributes of 'a good character'? And then, let's live up to that standard, and form the habits that comprise a good character. Let's be role-models. Let's set a good example.

:arrow: That is hardcore ethics :!:
.

It was a mistake of omission, should be,

"Personally I do NOT like his boorish and narcissistic behaviors ..."

Btw, are you familiar with Situational Leadership Theory,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situation ... hip_theory

Trump despite his many negatives [which are not evil] was/is the right person for the job in then 2016 and the current situation the USA is in.

Do you deny the US was losing loads of jobs to China, Mexico and elsewhere and Obama had declared stupidly "those jobs will never come back"?

Isn't it a fact Trump stamped his foot down and kept jobs from going abroad and brought back many of the jobs lost back to the USA?

During the Obama era, the evil laden Muslims of the Muslim brotherhood were crawling all over the White House and Trump disinfected them and cleaned them off from the White House.

Trump was aggressive with Islamist-terrorists and in concert with others got rid of ISIS' occupation of lands and their violence in the Syria and Iraq. This is why these days we don't read of much violence from Islamists, so you need to thank Trump for that.
Instead, there is more and more violence [BLM, Antifa] from the left as condoned by the majority of the left.

Those are some of the positive performances [among many others] of Trump which carry the heavier weights.

If the likes of Obama i.e. Hillary has won it would have been status quo and things would have gotten worse.

I don't see Trump making up deliberately lies that had turned big that is so serious to the detriment for the USA.
Point is, in politics, politicians often making general statements instead of getting into the details. I often wish leaders would get into more details but as leaders their task is not getting into details but rather made general and broad statements.

At times, I wish Trump should be more thoughtful of his statements.
But it is the net positive of the whole package of Trump that is necessary for the optimality of the situation and thus we have to accept and bear with the negatives [which I think is not serious] that come along.

As for hardcore ethics, humanity must strive to improve the moral competence of the average person to the point we don't have to need people like Trump to deal with and optimize the situation like it is currently.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
Prismatic567
Philosopher
 
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Re: Hardcore Ethics

Postby thinkdr » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:56 am

As a patriotic American I do not think Trump is "doing a good job" for the American people: he is systematically disabling the important government agencies, placing as their head director a lobbyist from an industry that the agency was regulating -- or, in the case of the Dept. of Education, placing in a Cabinet Secretary who is devoted to abolishing the public school system in favor of private schools (in which her family trust is invested.) Trump put a coal-mining executive in charge of The Interior Department, one who is selling off public lands to the mining, and to the oil-and-gas industry.
He put a former lobbyist for that industry in charge of the Environmental Protection Agency. Trump is personally profiting from being President, thereby violating our Constitution (to which he took an oath to be faithful.)

I shall vote against him. Anyone who knows Ethics, values it highly and wants to live it, will do the same.

.
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE STRUCTURE OF ETHICS
[NEW] :!:
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf


THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018)
http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf

LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BASIC%20ETHICS.pdf


ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

When you search Bing for the following pdf selection you may wish to start with page 20 in order to skip the technicalities:
Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course
thinkdr
Thinker
 
Posts: 853
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:05 pm

Re: Hardcore Ethics

Postby thinkdr » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:56 am

As a patriotic American I do not think Trump is "doing a good job" for the American people: he is systematically disabling the important government agencies, placing as their head director a lobbyist from an industry that the agency was regulating -- or, in the case of the Dept. of Education, placing in a Cabinet Secretary who is devoted to abolishing the public school system in favor of private schools (in which her family trust is invested.) Trump put a coal-mining executive in charge of The Interior Department, one who is selling off public lands to the mining, and to the oil-and-gas industry.
He put a former lobbyist for that industry in charge of the Environmental Protection Agency. Trump is personally profiting from being President, thereby violating our Constitution (to which he took an oath to be faithful.)

I shall vote against him. Anyone who knows Ethics, values it highly and wants to live it, will do the same.

.
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE STRUCTURE OF ETHICS
[NEW] :!:
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf


THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018)
http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf

LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BASIC%20ETHICS.pdf


ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

When you search Bing for the following pdf selection you may wish to start with page 20 in order to skip the technicalities:
Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course
thinkdr
Thinker
 
Posts: 853
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:05 pm

Re: Hardcore Ethics

Postby Prismatic567 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:02 am

thinkdr wrote:As a patriotic American I do not think Trump is "doing a good job" for the American people: he is systematically disabling the important government agencies, placing as their head director a lobbyist from an industry that the agency was regulating -- or, in the case of the Dept. of Education, placing in a Cabinet Secretary who is devoted to abolishing the public school system in favor of private schools (in which her family trust is invested.) Trump put a coal-mining executive in charge of The Interior Department, one who is selling off public lands to the mining, and to the oil-and-gas industry.
He put a former lobbyist for that industry in charge of the Environmental Protection Agency. Trump is personally profiting from being President, thereby violating our Constitution (to which he took an oath to be faithful.)

I shall vote against him. Anyone who knows Ethics, values it highly and wants to live it, will do the same.

.

I noted your above are very subjective views.
Do you have objective proof and evidence the above appointments [if true] are significantly detrimental to the interests of the whole of the USA.

Do you have proofs Trump is personally profiting from being President especially against the fact that he had donated his full salary to Charity.
Also given that Trump is a billionaire and his age, it would be stupid of him to profit himself for another few billions [surely he aware he cannot take that along with him to heaven?] from corruption and risk his reputation recklessly.

To be objective one need to appraise fully based in terms of employment with the proper weightage to be given to the more critical functions.
You have not done that but merely speculated which I believe is based on emotional impulses.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
Prismatic567
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Re: Hardcore Ethics

Postby thinkdr » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:22 am

Hey everyone:

:?: Did you know :?: that the Ultimate Goal of Ethics -- according to the ethical paradigm offered in the papers linked to in the References below -- is a Quality Life for all.

It is having a good character and having well-being.

What is "well-being"?

It’s a life rich in meaning, one full of ‘mountain-top’ experiences and warm memories. It is quality time with those we love. It includes leisure to pursue our hobbies and freely-chosen projects. It's getting into 'the flow', having some accomplishment to your credit, attaining some happiness.

A more-detailed explanation of the concept "well-being," as understood by Dr. Martin Seligman, is given THE STRUCTURE OF ETHICS booklet. See the first link in the Signature found at the end of my earlier posts. There the author informs us that Ethics entails creating value in human relationships.

Hence, a test of an administration, or a government, is to ask with respect to it: Are the majority of its citizens closer to having a Quality Life than they were at the beginning of this administration's term in office?

If the answer is No, then organizze, mobilize, and vote for change. ...if you can still vote -- if the voting system hasn't been thrown into complete chaos by evil-doers and authoritarians.

Readers and Forum Participants: What do you think? I'd like to hear your views on any of the topics mentioned above.
.
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Re: Hardcore Ethics

Postby thinkdr » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:59 pm

In the writings referenced in the Signature below, the author speaks of "an ethical world." Unless we are aware of the steps that will get us there, this notion could be labeled as 'utopian.'
It would seem that the first step to arrive at a better world - on the way to an ethical world - is to defeat the re-election of Donald J. Trump :!:


Throw the bums out!

It remains true that to abstain from voting, to not vote, is to permit the current head of the U.S. Administration to stay in, or slide back in, for every conceivable trick to suppress the will be tried, including a legal challenge up to The Supreme Court. ...thus resulting in delay and chaos.


Con anyone suggest a series of steps that lead to, or result in, an ethical world? Let's hear your views....
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE STRUCTURE OF ETHICS
[NEW] :!:
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf


THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018)
http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf

LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BASIC%20ETHICS.pdf


ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

When you search Bing for the following pdf selection you may wish to start with page 20 in order to skip the technicalities:
Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course
thinkdr
Thinker
 
Posts: 853
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:05 pm

Re: Hardcore Ethics

Postby thinkdr » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:04 pm

In the recent post the question was asked as to what steps might bring us closer to living in an ethical world.

One step I could suggest that would have that result is to teach Ethics at the highschool level.

Now I throw it open to Readers and Participants here at the Forum: Can you come up with practical suggestions as to how the subject of fEthics may be introduced into the highschool curriculum around the United States.

Any ideas??


Do you know any teachers? ... or potential teachers? Are they interested in Moral Philosophy at all; or could you get them interested?

Please respond.
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE STRUCTURE OF ETHICS
[NEW] :!:
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf


THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018)
http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf

LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BASIC%20ETHICS.pdf


ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

When you search Bing for the following pdf selection you may wish to start with page 20 in order to skip the technicalities:
Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course
thinkdr
Thinker
 
Posts: 853
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:05 pm

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