Meditation, some answers

This is the main board for discussing philosophy - formal, informal and in between.

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby MagsJ » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:08 am

_
Thanks..
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
User avatar
MagsJ
The Londonist: a chic geek
 
Posts: 21522
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: Suryaloka / LDN Town

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:58 am

MagsJ wrote:The science behind meditation has been researched, many years ago now.

Science has reported on studies involving people who have been practicing it. They said nothing about the many who tried it and gave up because of no evidentiary affect upon them. I doubt they have even bothered with a statistical study.

The science they reported has been that meditation works to the positive (for those who have been doing it - not necessarily for all people perhaps not even for half of the people due to their individual situations). But that is all they can say. They can say NOTHING about how or why it helps those few. How and why meditation helps anyone is still completely superstitious postulation.
Member of The Coalition of Truth - member #1

              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
obsrvr524
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1855
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby iambiguous » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:03 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
Contrary to the general perception, brain and mind are two different things. Brain, as we all know is a part of our physical body but mind is not. it enters the body, embedded with consciousness and makes our body alive.


And, most important of all, you don't have to actually demonstrate that this is true theologically or philosophically or scientifically.

You simply have to believe that it is true in whatever manner you have come to believe in turn that the brain and the mind are intertwined in the evolution of biological life on earth going back to whatever you believe about things like the Big Bang going back to whatever you believe about things like God going back to whatever you believe about the existence of existence itself.

You think it, then meditate about it and that makes it true.


You know, like genes and memes.


On the other hand, what if it's memes and genes?

But for you, on any number of threads, a dump is a dump.

Or "poop" as some call it.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 39808
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:06 am

iambiguous wrote:
Pedro I Rengel wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
And, most important of all, you don't have to actually demonstrate that this is true theologically or philosophically or scientifically.

You simply have to believe that it is true in whatever manner you have come to believe in turn that the brain and the mind are intertwined in the evolution of biological life on earth going back to whatever you believe about things like the Big Bang going back to whatever you believe about things like God going back to whatever you believe about the existence of existence itself.

You think it, then meditate about it and that makes it true.


You know, like genes and memes.


On the other hand, what if it's memes and genes?

But for you, on any number of threads, a dump is a dump.

Or "poop" as some call it.


Stop spamming. I am simply reminding you of your glass house. You are welcome any time "to actually demonstrate that this is true theologically or philosophically or scientifically" here: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=196136
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
ᛈᛖᛉᛖᛉ
 
Posts: 8792
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:16 am

MagsJ wrote:_
I think it’s more about the psychological blockage of mind, than acquiring knowledge of the process itself..

Not necessarily. Understanding of the details is not essential in meditation. But, i am giving all that details just to enable people understand not only what but why too.

Most say that it’s not the process but what they fear they will encounter along the way, that is the prohibitory factor of starting the process..

I am more than sure that there is nothing to fear about at all.

though I’m sure that hearing the experience from another may help others overcome that fear,

Yes.

but in my experience it hasn’t.

In that case, these must be something going wrong. If you are interested i can help you in correcting the course. Or, you can simply keep reading my posts here. perhaps, that would be helpful also.

I think that even daily general musing on one’s thoughts is better than no musing at all, and is a great place to start.. even if there the muser forever remains.


Try this for few days and see what happens-

[quoteBefore anything else, the first thing to learn is to establish direct two way connection between conscious and subconscious mind. Here is very simple method of it and this will help in many other ways too.

All one needs is 20 min in 24 hours for this.

When going to the bed in the night, do not sleep at once. Devote roughly half an hour to yourself daily. When one is going to sleep, after finishing all your work, he/she just to down calmly for some seconds there on the bed and close your eyes. Let some breaths go in and out smoothly then try to remember what you did during the whole day from waking up till the bed. Start from the event one, whether important or not. Then try to remember your state of mind while doing different actions, like whether you had a fight with your boss or employees, love or quarrel with you spouse, etc. Go in the details and try to see the motives behind your actions, examine your frame of mind doing a particular action, and, also try to judge whether your actions and intentions were right or not, and then sleep.

That is all one has to do.

But, please understand that though it looks very simple, but it is not. It would be somewhat thrilling for some initial days, but, sooner or later, that moment would come when your mind would refuse to stick to it and tells you quietly that let us bunk it today. And, if you fall in the trap, it would argue more profoundly next day for avoiding it by telling you that you have some more important things to think about, so why engage in this useless exercise. And, if you make a gap of some days, then you have to start all over again.

Just remember two things.

Never open your eyes doing so otherwise that system would not be activated and eat slightly less at dinner to avoid falling asleep immediately.

with love,
sanjay
][/quote]
User avatar
zinnat
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3700
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:27 pm

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:23 am

iambiguous wrote:
Contrary to the general perception, brain and mind are two different things. Brain, as we all know is a part of our physical body but mind is not. it enters the body, embedded with consciousness and makes our body alive.


And, most important of all, you don't have to actually demonstrate that this is true theologically or philosophically or scientifically.

You simply have to believe that it is true in whatever manner you have come to believe in turn that the brain and the mind are intertwined in the evolution of biological life on earth going back to whatever you believe about things like the Big Bang going back to whatever you believe about things like God going back to whatever you believe about the existence of existence itself.

You think it, then meditate about it and that makes it true.


lamb,
As i said before i am done with you thus not going to engage with you again, no matter how had you try. let us see whether you have any shame left in you or not.

with love.
sanjay
User avatar
zinnat
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3700
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:27 pm

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:32 am

obsrvr524 wrote:I don't think anyone can validly talk about how any of this works until they clearly define distinctions in the terms they use - "brain", "mind", "consciousness", "unconscious", "subconscious", "instinct", "habit", "natural", and so on. Until then, all explanations are vague, unscientific, and a bit meaningless - even superstitious.


Observr,

i think it would be better if you read the posts carefully first before making any comment. Of course, you can call it superstition if you like. I do not mind that.

Look carefully a the title of the thread--Meditation, some answers. Which clearly indicates that this thread is meant only for those who are already interested in the subject in one way or other and want to know more about it. If you are not one of those, there is nothing meaningful for you here.

with love,
sanjay
User avatar
zinnat
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3700
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:27 pm

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:48 am

MagsJ wrote:
The science behind meditation has been researched, many years ago now.


Yes, there has been some research in the west But only half heartedly. It looks like that the whole purpose of the research was to find something that can help in dismissing all claims.

Masgj,
Because of my long personal experiences of the subject, i am sure that some such premises can be proved scientifically. All it needs a well equipped Ophthalmology, brain scanning and weight measurement lab and it can be done.

with love,
sanjay
User avatar
zinnat
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3700
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:27 pm

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:56 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:
Stop spamming.


No, he would not, ever. Because, that is what he is. And, he is having very hard time in accepting that i have refused engaging with him. He is seeing as his defeat at ILP. That is why he keeps provoking me in spite of blatant refusal.

With love,
sanjay
User avatar
zinnat
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3700
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:27 pm

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby phyllo » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:02 pm

Zinnat wrote :
Then try to remember your state of mind while doing different actions, like whether you had a fight with your boss or employees, love or quarrel with you spouse, etc. Go in the details and try to see the motives behind your actions, examine your frame of mind doing a particular action, and, also try to judge whether your actions and intentions were right or not, and then sleep.
Isn't judging it right/wrong going to make you feel guilty or make you feel like you failed?
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 12158
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:33 pm

phyllo wrote:
Zinnat wrote :
Then try to remember your state of mind while doing different actions, like whether you had a fight with your boss or employees, love or quarrel with you spouse, etc. Go in the details and try to see the motives behind your actions, examine your frame of mind doing a particular action, and, also try to judge whether your actions and intentions were right or not, and then sleep.
Isn't judging it right/wrong going to make you feel guilty or make you feel like you failed?


In some cases, of course. And, that is precisely the purpose of this whole exercise.

Mind behaves just like any other physical organ. In sports and others fields, the term of muscle memory is often used. Means, with enough repitition in a particular way in a specific circumstances, we can train our muscles to react as we desire. It is said that after repeating a same mescular pattern for 4-5 thousands times, those muscles tend to develop some kind of subconscious memory and start reacting accordingly too everytime. We can also train our mind to behave in that way.

We interact with a lot of different circumstances and people daily and respond those as we see best fit. But, we do not get all that right everytime, sometimes right and sometimes wrongly too. And, we came to know about that later.

If we start reviewing our daily actions and intents, the time will come when because of past experiences, we will start knowing the result of our intents and actions just at the time when we are going to do that.

And, if one keeps doing it for sufficient time, all those past experiences will create a kind of firewall or warning system in our mind. As the result, when we encounter the same situation and going to react, subconscious will immediately alarm the conscious mind about the results. And, we will start avoiding unfavourable actions.

With love,
Sanjay
User avatar
zinnat
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3700
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:27 pm

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby iambiguous » Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:00 pm

zinnat wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
Contrary to the general perception, brain and mind are two different things. Brain, as we all know is a part of our physical body but mind is not. it enters the body, embedded with consciousness and makes our body alive.


And, most important of all, you don't have to actually demonstrate that this is true theologically or philosophically or scientifically.

You simply have to believe that it is true in whatever manner you have come to believe in turn that the brain and the mind are intertwined in the evolution of biological life on earth going back to whatever you believe about things like the Big Bang going back to whatever you believe about things like God going back to whatever you believe about the existence of existence itself.

You think it, then meditate about it and that makes it true.


lamb,
As i said before i am done with you thus not going to engage with you again, no matter how had you try. let us see whether you have any shame left in you or not.

with love.
sanjay


Let's just say that in regard to our capacity and our willingness to respond both intelligently, civilly and substantively to each others points, we understand shame very, very differently.

Though I can't help but be curious as to how you reconcile the part about shame with the part about "with love". Must be a "spiritual" thing, right?

See you on the other side, my friend. Or, sure, not see you. :wink:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 39808
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby iambiguous » Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:09 pm

zinnat wrote:
Pedro I Rengel wrote:
Stop spamming.


No, he would not, ever. Because, that is what he is. And, he is having very hard time in accepting that i have refused engaging with him. He is seeing as his defeat at ILP. That is why he keeps provoking me in spite of blatant refusal.

With love,
sanjay


Just for the record, his actual belief that I am having a hard time accepting his refusal to engage with me, well, this is demonstrated by him...how?

I have not responded to any of his posts for weeks and weeks. And, even here, I did not note his name in regard to my own reaction to thinking like his. After all, this thread goes back to May, right?

And then the part where he chooses not to respond to those of my ilk who raise the points that we do:

And, most important of all, you don't have to actually demonstrate that this is true theologically or philosophically or scientifically.

You simply have to believe that it is true in whatever manner you have come to believe in turn that the brain and the mind are intertwined in the evolution of biological life on earth going back to whatever you believe about things like the Big Bang going back to whatever you believe about things like God going back to whatever you believe about the existence of existence itself.

You think it, then meditate about it and that makes it true.


You tell me.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 39808
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:42 pm

zinnat wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:I don't think anyone can validly talk about how any of this works until they clearly define distinctions in the terms they use - "brain", "mind", "consciousness", "unconscious", "subconscious", "instinct", "habit", "natural", and so on. Until then, all explanations are vague, unscientific, and a bit meaningless - even superstitious.


Observr,

i think it would be better if you read the posts carefully first before making any comment. Of course, you can call it superstition if you like. I do not mind that.

Look carefully a the title of the thread--Meditation, some answers. Which clearly indicates that this thread is meant only for those who are already interested in the subject in one way or other and want to know more about it. If you are not one of those, there is nothing meaningful for you here.

with love,
sanjay
Did you ignore what my post said? Or just not understand it?
Member of The Coalition of Truth - member #1

              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
obsrvr524
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1855
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:35 am

Not knowing your background, let me explain what I meant.

First I stated that the little bit of science involved FAVORED meditation. But then I raised the point that the science was no where near rigorous. Rigorous science would involve the very same kinds of things important to vaccine research. In a way meditation is proposed as a type of mental vaccine.

Rigorous science would include a cornucopia of types and conditions of people in separate groups being carefully monitored - young, old, women, men, the variety of ethnic groups, beginners, experienced, religiously endowed, and a host of types of minds (logical, mathematical, rhetoric, passionate, anxious, oppressed, lustful,...).

All of that would cost a small fortune and would yield data signifying different degrees of efficacy for each group -"90% effective for group A, 40% for group B", and so on. All of that would be acceptable "science".



But my greater point was that even with all of that rigorous science the hows and whys are still not addressed at all.

To address the hows and whys there has to be proposed theories involving ontological elements - "brain", "mind", "consciousness".... Any terms being used to describe what is going on inside the person must be clearly defined and clearly distinguished from each other. Then those theories would also have to be studied in order to see how well they fit the formerly gained data concerning efficacy.

For a vaccine all of that is relatively easy because the sub-component parts - the "ontology" are already well defined. You can't just say "we inject the patient with some of this gooey stuff so that the hard parts get stuck to the soft mushy parts and the spirit doesn't like the contention so the soul rejects the whole lot of them." You literally wouldn't know what you are talking about even if you were right - what do those words actually mean? How is "consciousness" distinguished from "mind" from "psyche" from "spirit" from "soul"?

If one or more of the well defined theories actually fits the data, those theories can be accepted as explanations of what is going on concerning how and why meditation affects people. Until all of that is done, especially the ontological part, any discussion of how any of it works (regardless of how well it works) is merely amateur guess work and literally superstition - merely because there was no due diligence in defining the words being used. Until that is done, no one - no one - knows what it is they are saying when it comes to HOW or WHY.

That's how I see it anyway.
Member of The Coalition of Truth - member #1

              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
obsrvr524
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1855
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:42 am

iambiguous wrote:
zinnat wrote:
Pedro I Rengel wrote:
Stop spamming.


No, he would not, ever. Because, that is what he is. And, he is having very hard time in accepting that i have refused engaging with him. He is seeing as his defeat at ILP. That is why he keeps provoking me in spite of blatant refusal.

With love,
sanjay


Just for the record, his actual belief that I am having a hard time accepting his refusal to engage with me, well, this is demonstrated by him...how?

Well, everybody can see it very clearly except you.

I have not responded to any of his posts for weeks and weeks. And, even here, I did not note his name in regard to my own reaction to thinking like his. After all, this thread goes back to May, right?

And then the part where he chooses not to respond to those of my ilk who raise the points that we do:

And, most important of all, you don't have to actually demonstrate that this is true theologically or philosophically or scientifically.

You simply have to believe that it is true in whatever manner you have come to believe in turn that the brain and the mind are intertwined in the evolution of biological life on earth going back to whatever you believe about things like the Big Bang going back to whatever you believe about things like God going back to whatever you believe about the existence of existence itself.

You think it, then meditate about it and that makes it true.


You tell me.
User avatar
zinnat
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3700
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:27 pm

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:55 am

obsrvr524 wrote:Not knowing your background, let me explain what I meant.

First I stated that the little bit of science involved FAVORED meditation. But then I raised the point that the science was no where near rigorous. Rigorous science would involve the very same kinds of things important to vaccine research. In a way meditation is proposed as a type of mental vaccine.

Rigorous science would include a cornucopia of types and conditions of people in separate groups being carefully monitored - young, old, women, men, the variety of ethnic groups, beginners, experienced, religiously endowed, and a host of types of minds (logical, mathematical, rhetoric, passionate, anxious, oppressed, lustful,...).

All of that would cost a small fortune and would yield data signifying different degrees of efficacy for each group -"90% effective for group A, 40% for group B", and so on. All of that would be acceptable "science".

Well, that methodology is not practically possible in the case of meditation.

But my greater point was that even with all of that rigorous science the hows and whys are still not addressed at all.

To address the hows and whys there has to be proposed theories involving ontological elements - "brain", "mind", "consciousness".... Any terms being used to describe what is going on inside the person must be clearly defined and clearly distinguished from each other. Then those theories would also have to be studied in order to see how well they fit the formerly gained data concerning efficacy.

Here i have to bring that precious point of not reading clearly enough previous posts. I do not think that i missed anything in my theory or ontology, whatever you want to call it. Nevertheless, i am happy to explain again if you want any further explanation.

For a vaccine all of that is relatively easy because the sub-component parts - the "ontology" are already well defined. You can't just say "we inject the patient with some of this gooey stuff so that the hard parts get stuck to the soft mushy parts and the spirit doesn't like the contention so the soul rejects the whole lot of them." You literally wouldn't know what you are talking about even if you were right - what do those words actually mean? How is "consciousness" distinguished from "mind" from "psyche" from "spirit" from "soul"?

If one or more of the well defined theories actually fits the data, those theories can be accepted as explanations of what is going on concerning how and why meditation affects people. Until all of that is done, especially the ontological part, any discussion of how any of it works (regardless of how well it works) is merely amateur guess work and literally superstition - merely because there was no due diligence in defining the words being used. Until that is done, no one - no one - knows what it is they are saying when it comes to HOW or WHY.

That's how I see it anyway.

Not at all. I am not saying that just do this or that but also giving enough underlying reasons and explanations why one is supposed to do so. Again, i am quite open to further questioning if anybody wants.


with love,
sanjay
User avatar
zinnat
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3700
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:27 pm

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby iambiguous » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:04 am

zinnat wrote:Well, everybody can see it very clearly except you.


Or perhaps they might see this more clearly instead:

I have not responded to any of his posts for weeks and weeks. And, even here, I did not note his name in regard to my own reaction to thinking like his. After all, this thread goes back to May, right?

And then the part where he chooses not to respond to those of my ilk who raise the points that we do:


And, most important of all, you don't have to actually demonstrate that this is true theologically or philosophically or scientifically.

You simply have to believe that it is true in whatever manner you have come to believe in turn that the brain and the mind are intertwined in the evolution of biological life on earth going back to whatever you believe about things like the Big Bang going back to whatever you believe about things like God going back to whatever you believe about the existence of existence itself.

You think it, then meditate about it and that makes it true.


Look, I understand the reaction of the spiritually minded here to me: after all, they have a lot of comforting and consoling illusions to lose.

If I do say so myself.

So, by all means, carry on in sustaining them. And I truly do wish that I were able to do so myself.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 39808
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:22 am

iambiguous wrote:
zinnat wrote:Well, everybody can see it very clearly except you.


Or perhaps they might see this more clearly instead:

I have not responded to any of his posts for weeks and weeks. And, even here, I did not note his name in regard to my own reaction to thinking like his. After all, this thread goes back to May, right?

And then the part where he chooses not to respond to those of my ilk who raise the points that we do:


And, most important of all, you don't have to actually demonstrate that this is true theologically or philosophically or scientifically.

You simply have to believe that it is true in whatever manner you have come to believe in turn that the brain and the mind are intertwined in the evolution of biological life on earth going back to whatever you believe about things like the Big Bang going back to whatever you believe about things like God going back to whatever you believe about the existence of existence itself.

You think it, then meditate about it and that makes it true.


Look, I understand the reaction of the spiritually minded here to me: after all, they have a lot of comforting and consoling illusions to lose.

If I do say so myself.

So, by all means, carry on in sustaining them. And I truly do wish that I were able to do so myself.


Instead of replying you i would like it to leave to other posters to judge who is dying to get replies.
Goodbye again.

with love,
sanjay
User avatar
zinnat
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3700
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:27 pm

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby phyllo » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:02 pm

Can we please let Zinnat present his experience and knowledge of meditation in peace and without distractions.

Perhaps the critics can start a new thread where they present their own experience and knowledge : "Meditation is ...unscientific, nonsense, superstition, illusion, opiate, etc. Or wait until he is finished and only then comment in this thread.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 12158
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:28 pm

phyllo wrote:Can we please let Zinnat present his experience and knowledge of meditation in peace and without distractions.

Perhaps the critics can start a new thread where they present their own experience and knowledge : "Meditation is ...unscientific, nonsense, superstition, illusion, opiate, etc. Or wait until he is finished and only then comment in this thread.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.


Phyllo,

I do not object either questioning or criticism but the purpose of all that should be to get more insight into the issue, not mocking. But iamb is certainly excluded from my welcome list. I am ready to answer anyone else.

With love,
Sanjay
User avatar
zinnat
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3700
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:27 pm

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby phyllo » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:50 pm

Well it's up to you but I think that it tends to be distracting.

You don't interrupt a lecture ... you save your questions and criticism until the end.

You don't interrupt a violin recital with ... "your tempo is all wrong, you missed a bar there, you didn't play a B-sharp as is written in the score". Afterwards, you can freely express your pleasure or displeasure. Or walk out if you really don't like the performance.
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 12158
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:40 pm

phyllo wrote:Well it's up to you but I think that it tends to be distracting.

You don't interrupt a lecture ... you save your questions and criticism until the end.

You don't interrupt a violin recital with ... "your tempo is all wrong, you missed a bar there, you didn't play a B-sharp as is written in the score". Afterwards, you can freely express your pleasure or displeasure. Or walk out if you really don't like the performance.


You certainly have a valid point but this thread is neither a one time long lecture nor a musical performance so can be commented upon only after the completion of the performance. It is being done in small parts so I do not see any problem in answering questions or criticisms in between.

With love,
Sanjay
User avatar
zinnat
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3700
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:27 pm

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby iambiguous » Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:25 pm

zinnat wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
zinnat wrote:Well, everybody can see it very clearly except you.


Or perhaps they might see this more clearly instead:

I have not responded to any of his posts for weeks and weeks. And, even here, I did not note his name in regard to my own reaction to thinking like his. After all, this thread goes back to May, right?

And then the part where he chooses not to respond to those of my ilk who raise the points that we do:


And, most important of all, you don't have to actually demonstrate that this is true theologically or philosophically or scientifically.

You simply have to believe that it is true in whatever manner you have come to believe in turn that the brain and the mind are intertwined in the evolution of biological life on earth going back to whatever you believe about things like the Big Bang going back to whatever you believe about things like God going back to whatever you believe about the existence of existence itself.

You think it, then meditate about it and that makes it true.


Look, I understand the reaction of the spiritually minded here to me: after all, they have a lot of comforting and consoling illusions to lose.

If I do say so myself.

So, by all means, carry on in sustaining them. And I truly do wish that I were able to do so myself.


Instead of replying you i would like it to leave to other posters to judge who is dying to get replies.
Goodbye again.

with love,
sanjay


Again, if I was "dying to get replies", wouldn't I have started in back in May? But reason here isn't necessarily the principle motivation in sustaining "I" from the cradle to the grave.

Instead, the irony [from my frame of mind] is rather startling: the need on my part to once again think the same sort of thoughts and feel the same sort of emotions that bring the religionists here all the comfort and the consolation that they still manage to sustain. Most no doubt all the way to the grave.

Which "for all practical purposes" means they win and I lose.

Shouldn't that be enough for them?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 39808
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby iambiguous » Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:32 pm

zinnat wrote:
phyllo wrote:Can we please let Zinnat present his experience and knowledge of meditation in peace and without distractions.

Perhaps the critics can start a new thread where they present their own experience and knowledge : "Meditation is ...unscientific, nonsense, superstition, illusion, opiate, etc. Or wait until he is finished and only then comment in this thread.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.


Phyllo,

I do not object either questioning or criticism but the purpose of all that should be to get more insight into the issue, not mocking. But iamb is certainly excluded from my welcome list. I am ready to answer anyone else.

With love,
Sanjay


But my own insight in regard to God and religion is to pose this...

And, most important of all, you don't have to actually demonstrate that this is true theologically or philosophically or scientifically.

You simply have to believe that it is true in whatever manner you have come to believe in turn that the brain and the mind are intertwined in the evolution of biological life on earth going back to whatever you believe about things like the Big Bang going back to whatever you believe about things like God going back to whatever you believe about the existence of existence itself.

You think it, then meditate about it and that makes it true.


...to those who pursue them without examining what I construe here to be the "psychology of objectivism".

After all, God and religion are deemed by others to be a distraction from the need to pursue more secular resolutions to the problems that plague the human race "down here".
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 39808
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

PreviousNext

Return to Philosophy



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot]