Meditation, some answers

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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby MagsJ » Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:54 pm

Lol
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:58 am

My connection resumed just now. I will post tonight or tomorrow.

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sanjay
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:56 pm

zinnat wrote:Sorry guys,

My internet connection has got disturbed and it is not yet repaired due to lockdown. Telecom co people are telling that my connection will resume on monday.

with love,
sanjay

Just curious, how did you manage to post this?
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:00 am

Fixed Cross wrote:
zinnat wrote:Sorry guys,

My internet connection has got disturbed and it is not yet repaired due to lockdown. Telecom co people are telling that my connection will resume on monday.

with love,
sanjay

Just curious, how did you manage to post this?


By taking my laptop to a friend's house at the other corner of the city, which is not possible in routine because of the lockdown.

With love
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:42 pm

Thanks, I hope you had a nice trip back and forth.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:20 am

I was thinking about starting a new thread about meditation but then i remembered about this thread which i left incomplete during corona times thus i am resuming this.

I would request those readers who are interested in the subject, to go through my previous posts in this thread again in order to have clearer understanding. New post is following in a day or two.

with love,
sanjay
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby sacrosanct » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:57 am

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1W0Ovl3SQ4w

something to ponder on about life to continue meditation....
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:22 am

Before resuming the thread further, i thought that it would be useful to go through my previous post again and i found this.-

zinnat wrote:In order to understand meditation clearly, We have to understand mind and consciousness, their default working characters, and their relation to each other. Meditation cannot be understood without this. This is precisely the reason why it looks weird or useless to some people. let me state this as i found and understood.

Many intellectuals will object this and claim that i am stepping into religious zone but i am not. As i mentioned above that as i found and understood., means what my personal experiences told me, Not any religious book. That is altogether a different thing that one may find something like that in some religious books also but i cannot help it.

Like most of the modern intellectual populace believes that mind and consciousness are the same thing but they are not. They are entirely two different entities but work with each other. Not only that, they cannot work without oneanother. Mind is a doing entity while consciousness in feeling entity. Mind collects all the data from the physical organs and think over it.


I think that it needs more clarification here in order to enable readers have clear understanding.

As it is generally believe, humans are not a singular entity but a three fold one. The innermost ingredient is consciousness, then it is wrapped by soul and then by physical body. Thus we are three folded. The soul is not consciousness. All of our three folds are made of different matter. Or, in other words we can say these three correspond to three different dimensions.

The consciousness is eternal and unchangeable. It does not do anything but just witness or feel whatever is happening to outer two bodies. As it is eternal thus it knows all, right from the its origin til now But it cannot do anything about it. The next layer is soul which is just like outermost human body but made of different matter which is subtler than our matter. Not only body but it also has its own mind. What we call subconscious is nothing but soul's mind. Then comes the outermost layer which is human body, made of most crude form of matter which has its own mind too- conscious mind.

The important thing to understand here is that the soul is not eternal. Though it is made of different and subtler matter thus improved version of human body, but still not eternal. It takes birth and dies just like human body but its life span is very large in comparison to ours, so large that in a manner of speaking we call it eternal but not truly eternal in its strict sense. It feels pain and pleasure just like us. What we consider gods or higher supernatural entities, as mentioned in almost all major religions, are nothing but souls freed or not wrapped from human wrap. In other words, we can say that a god resides in each and every human.

Then comes consciousness. As i said above it is eternal and unchangeable but not a doing entity. It does not do anything, not even thinking but just feels. It does not have any mind on its own but permanently connected to soul and human minds. To be more precise, mind is part or rather anomaly caused in consciousness though separated thus it is also eternal like consciousness but unlike it, mind is a doing entity and does all the thinking. Because of being eternal, and also having its default nature of thinking, it never stops thinking, no matter how hard we try. Its this very nature cannot be undone by any effort or means. The only thing we can do to tame it, is to keep it engaged in something.

And, that is precisely what meditation is.

with love.
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby MagsJ » Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:00 pm

zinnat wrote:I was thinking about starting a new thread about meditation but then i remembered about this thread which i left incomplete during corona times thus i am resuming this.

I would request those readers who are interested in the subject, to go through my previous posts in this thread again in order to have clearer understanding. New post is following in a day or two.

with love,
sanjay

Meditation! the answer.. sit down, shut up, stop gassing, and start meditating.

..and, I thank you. :handgestures-salute:
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:21 am

MagsJ wrote:
zinnat wrote:I was thinking about starting a new thread about meditation but then i remembered about this thread which i l only those who areeft incomplete during corona times thus i am resuming this.

I would request those readers who are interested in the subject, to go through my previous posts in this thread again in order to have clearer understanding. New post is following in a day or two.

with love,
sanjay

Meditation! the answer.. sit down, shut up, stop gassing, and start meditating.

..and, I thank you. :handgestures-salute:


Magsj,

For clarification, i am not asking to anyone to pick up meditation. That is not my intention. That entirely depends on one's choice. I am addressing only those who are already interested and looking for more understanding of the subject. Given my experience, i think that i can help them to some extent.

with love,
sanjay
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:41 am

Let us resume.

Contrary to what people generally think, meditation, especially the initial phase is totally areligious. It is not unreligious but areligious only. Means, its initial phase has nothing to with any particular religion but purely a mental exercise. So it does not matter at all what is one's belief, faith or ideology, the result will be the same.

As i mentioned before in this thread, meditation starts as a purely mental exercise. Concentration is its cornerstone so it does not matter from where that concentration comes. It could be anything, right from any religious figure or any other thought about any person/object. The only think that is required is that thought must be strong enough to overcome all other thoughts. Now, the natural question that comes to one's mind- why it is so?

To understand this. we have to go back to the cross section of humans. Humans are three folded entity, having two bodies with their respective minds. We have control over only human mind((conscious), not soul' mind( subconscious) while subconscious mind have a lot of control over conscious mind. It is almost one way traffic- from subconscious to conscious. We have to convert to into two way traffic. That is first goal of meditation. And, no further progress is possible achieving it. So, how can we do it?

As the soul's body is more powerful than human's body, thus, without any exception, thus, it is the conscious mind that decides our basic initial nature. Then, we come into the contact of different circumstances and our conscious mind gets affected by those and learns/changes accordingly too. As both minds are connected somehow so that change in the conscious mind affects its subconscious counterpart too, thought that much but still changes. But, if we keep repeating a particular mental behaviour or exercise either forcefully or by circumstances with conscious mind, later or sooner, subconscious mind also adapts it. This is precisely how we form habits.

Mind also behaves like body. As we know that if if we use a particular body part or muscle again and again, it becomes stronger than comparison to others. We see it in the case of body building. The same happens in the case of mind too. If use conscious mind again and again in a particular manner, it starting becoming stronger and stronger. On the other hand, Subconscious mind becomes weaker by the same degree. And, if we keep doing it long enough, the time comes when conscious mind becomes strong enough to tap and change subconscious mind. The first goal of the meditation completes here.

So, all that brings us back to choosing and using a particular set of conscious mind's practice. Given all that which i mentioned above, we have to find any such practice which we can use to make conscious mind stronger. And, there is only one way of doing it which is to keep it engaged in any particular thought so that it can not roam anywhere else. That is meditation.

So, it does not matter what one chooses as an object or subject of concentration, the result is going to be the same. The only thing that is required is to keep one's eyes closed while doing so. Otherwise, odds are in the favor that it would not work.

I will take this further in the next post.

with love.
sanjay
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:04 am

zinnat wrote:The only thing that is required is to keep one's eyes closed while doing so. Otherwise, odds are in the favor that it would not work.

If it is necessary to keep eyes closed (and I assume also in a calm environment) aren't people who have a medical condition of anxiety prevented from accomplishing meditation?
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:01 pm

Zazen is the meditative practice of being close to and in front of a blank wall and staring at it for hours (eyes open).

Personally, I think meditation is just engaging with the world and different perspectives. The echo chamber (you and a blank wall) isn’t going to teach you much other than what you learn from trying it once or twice.

Closing your eyes? Similar concept to zazen, but what bubbles up can be more distracting than zazen.

Only a very select group in the human species has the time to meditate as you’re suggesting.

Rather, one should learn that you are always meditating. This is called ‘mindfulness’.
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:07 pm

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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:16 am

obsrvr524 wrote:
zinnat wrote:The only thing that is required is to keep one's eyes closed while doing so. Otherwise, odds are in the favor that it would not work.

If it is necessary to keep eyes closed (and I assume also in a calm environment) aren't people who have a medical condition of anxiety prevented from accomplishing meditation?


I am not sure why you asked this. To me, it is asking a simillar thing why a lame person cannot be a marathon runner. Well, he cannot. It is as simple as that.

Having said that, I still cannot see why a person having anxiety problem cannot meditate. Perhaps, he will find it slightly more difficult than others, but still one can do that.

You need to understand that meditation is not going to be easy for normal persons either. It may look simple because of its simple methodology but it is not. Your mind and body will refuse to comply your order within five minutes. If you do not believe me, try it yourself and see the result.

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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:12 am

Ecmandu wrote:Zazen is the meditative practice of being close to and in front of a blank wall and staring at it for hours (eyes open).

Personally, I think meditation is just engaging with the world and different perspectives. The echo chamber (you and a blank wall) isn’t going to teach you much other than what you learn from trying it once or twice.

Closing your eyes? Similar concept to zazen, but what bubbles up can be more distracting than zazen.

Only a very select group in the human species has the time to meditate as you’re suggesting.

Rather, one should learn that you are always meditating. This is called ‘mindfulness’.


I am not aware of that practice of staring at the wall as a meditation practice. But, I am more than sure that it is not going to work, especially for the beginners. Having said that, one can do that but only after crossing a certain threshold.

Closing of eyes is necessary because how the combination of human's mind and body is supposed to work during the interaction with the world.

As we know that we experience the world with the help of our senses and then mind analyses those sensations and produces thoughts accordingly. For normal persons, the most important or default sense are eyes. That is precisely why when we awake from the sleep, which is a semi conscious state, first of all we open our eyes. We do not move our legs or hands as a first response but use eyes only.
This default sense would change in the case of blind persons, perhaps they use ears for that.

So, as we use this default process throughout our lives, mind also becomes habitual of concentrating on eyes as far as we are awake. But, in meditation, we need mind for different purpose but it refuses to go there where we want it to go as far as the eyes are opened. That is why we have to close our eyes if we want to meditate.

I do not think that it is impossible for an average person to meditate as you said. A half of an hour in a day would be enough and I do not see any reason why a person cannot spare that much time from his routine, if one wants, otherwise there is no dearth of excuses.

Lastly, this term of mindfulness is very popular with these new age spiritualists and western Buddhists and they use it a lot too. But, I do not think they understand what it exactly means or how it can be attained.

Mindfulness is not a starting point of meditation as it is perceived generally but it comes a lot later in the ladder. Mindfulness refers to the stage when one' mind is full with one thought only, nothing else. And, that is not an easy thing to achieve but demands a lot of practice and patience.

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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:17 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:


Pedro,

I am not intelligent enough to understand what you want to say, how it is pertinent to the thread and how I should reply to it. Perhaps, you are mocking. Anyway, that is fine too.

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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:24 am

Hi Sanjay,

It was meant as a joke regarding Ecmandu's post. "Zazen," "Zasa." No smartassery was intended.

I am enjoying the thread immensley.
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:38 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Hi Sanjay,

It was meant as a joke regarding Ecmandu's post. "Zazen," "Zasa." No smartassery was intended.

I am enjoying the thread immensley.


Okay and thanks too for clarification.

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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby MagsJ » Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:05 am

zinnat wrote:You need to understand that meditation is not going to be easy for normal persons either. It may look simple because of its simple methodology but it is not. Your mind and body will refuse to comply your order within five minutes. If you do not believe me, try it yourself and see the result.

This is actually true..

I am not aware of that practice of staring at the wall as a meditation practice. But, I am more than sure that it is not going to work, especially for the beginners. Having said that, one can do that but only after crossing a certain threshold.

This is probably also true, but I wouldn’t know from experience, because I practiced Zazen.. after decades of practising standard Indian meditation for most of my life. Zazen helps with refocusing the mind back to centre..
_
What is the point of zazen?
Significance. Zazen is considered the heart of Japanese Sōtō Zen Buddhist practice. The aim of zazen is just sitting, that is, suspending all judgmental thinking and letting words, ideas, images and thoughts pass by without getting involved in them.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:25 pm

Part of the intended practice of Zazen is to eradicate idols and iconography from the mind.

Zazen is not about prostrating, bowing, making offerings, looking at pictures or statues etc...

It discourages all of this.
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby obsrvr524 » Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:32 pm

Considering the number of people who subconsciously daydream, get triggered by traumas, or have anxiety issues, it seems that any meditating, especially merely staring at a wall with nothing to help them focus, is just a futile endeavor (much like being truthful in the USA). But for a short while it might give a few unemployed people something to do.
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:36 pm

One benefit of the eyes open approach, is that you have the capability of choosing some object, a drawing maybe or a smudge on the wall, or some ornament, and use it to put all your focus on it and make that thing you are looking at the one thought that fills your mind. Inevitably, the thought acts like an unlocking mechanism that allows your mind to work for you, in a sense. The only thing you yourself are "doing" is focusing on that thing, that point. But your mind is a flurry of activity.

That's probably the same reason movies work, all you are doing is focusing on the screen, so that your mind is unlocked to be carried by the stories suggested in the picture.
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby obsrvr524 » Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:40 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:That's probably the same reason movies work, all you are doing is focusing on the screen, so that your mind is unlocked to be carried by the stories suggested in the picture.

And being hypnotized.
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby MagsJ » Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:11 am

obsrvr524 wrote:Considering the number of people who subconsciously daydream, get triggered by traumas, or have anxiety issues, it seems that any meditating, especially merely staring at a wall with nothing to help them focus, is just a futile endeavor (much like being truthful in the USA).

Lololol @ “much like being truthful in the USA”.

I took up Zazen during the most active years of my career.. it helped ground me, and so become able to focus on the tasks at hand, better.. which is a necessity in the Project-management department.. and I was a daydreamer big time.

Try staring at a blank wall for 5 minutes. One’s natural instinct is to turn to the left or to turn to the right, so a person has to force themselves to keep staring straight ahead, until one day they don’t have to force it anymore, as it has now become automatic.. due to prolonged practice.

But for a short while it might give a few unemployed people something to do.

MagsJ said: “ I took up Zazen during the most active years of my career”.

Really? Are you sure?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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