Meditation, some answers

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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:26 am

iambiguous wrote:
And, most important of all, you don't have to actually demonstrate that this is true theologically or philosophically or scientifically.

You simply have to believe that it is true in whatever manner you have come to believe in turn that the brain and the mind are intertwined in the evolution of biological life on earth going back to whatever you believe about things like the Big Bang going back to whatever you believe about things like God going back to whatever you believe about the existence of existence itself.

You think it, then meditate about it and that makes it true.


Look, I understand the reaction of the spiritually minded here to me: after all, they have a lot of comforting and consoling illusions to lose.

If I do say so myself.

So, by all means, carry on in sustaining them. And I truly do wish that I were able to do so myself.


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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:29 am

:text-imsorry:
iambiguous wrote:
zinnat wrote:
lamb,
As i said before i am done with you thus not going to engage with you again, no matter how had you try. let us see whether you have any shame left in you or not.

with love.
sanjay


Let's just say that in regard to our capacity and our willingness to respond both intelligently, civilly and substantively to each others points, we understand shame very, very differently.

Though I can't help but be curious as to how you reconcile the part about shame with the part about "with love". Must be a "spiritual" thing, right?

See you on the other side, my friend. Or, sure, not see you. :wink:


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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:31 am

iambiguous wrote:
zinnat wrote:
phyllo wrote:Can we please let Zinnat present his experience and knowledge of meditation in peace and without distractions.

Perhaps the critics can start a new thread where they present their own experience and knowledge : "Meditation is ...unscientific, nonsense, superstition, illusion, opiate, etc. Or wait until he is finished and only then comment in this thread.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.


Phyllo,

I do not object either questioning or criticism but the purpose of all that should be to get more insight into the issue, not mocking. But iamb is certainly excluded from my welcome list. I am ready to answer anyone else.

With love,
Sanjay


But my own insight in regard to God and religion is to pose this...

And, most important of all, you don't have to actually demonstrate that this is true theologically or philosophically or scientifically.

You simply have to believe that it is true in whatever manner you have come to believe in turn that the brain and the mind are intertwined in the evolution of biological life on earth going back to whatever you believe about things like the Big Bang going back to whatever you believe about things like God going back to whatever you believe about the existence of existence itself.

You think it, then meditate about it and that makes it true.


...to those who pursue them without examining what I construe here to be the "psychology of objectivism".

After all, God and religion are deemed by others to be a distraction from the need to pursue more secular resolutions to the problems that plague the human race "down here".


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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby Dan~ » Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:33 am

After all, God and religion are deemed by others to be a distraction from the need to pursue more secular resolutions to the problems that plague the human race "down here"

Secularism is a failure.
It's about money and nonsense.

God is the highest goal / reality.
We should seek that first.
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby iambiguous » Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:16 pm

zinnat wrote: :text-imsorry:


And I'm sorry that, from my own frame of mind, you don't have either the spiritual or the philosophical inclination -- integrity? -- to explore this...

And, most important of all, you don't have to actually demonstrate that this is true theologically or philosophically or scientifically.

You simply have to believe that it is true in whatever manner you have come to believe in turn that the brain and the mind are intertwined in the evolution of biological life on earth going back to whatever you believe about things like the Big Bang going back to whatever you believe about things like God going back to whatever you believe about the existence of existence itself.

You think it, then meditate about it and that makes it true.


...with me in regard to both of our religious assessments "here and now".

That would seem likely to produce the far more fascinating exchange.

Only back on this thread instead: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=186929
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby iambiguous » Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:21 pm

Dan~ wrote:
After all, God and religion are deemed by others to be a distraction from the need to pursue more secular resolutions to the problems that plague the human race "down here"

Secularism is a failure.
It's about money and nonsense.

God is the highest goal / reality.
We should seek that first.


We'll need a context of course. Lots of them in fact.

And if a God, the God, your God is our highest goal, we''ll need to examine that God in the context of, say, theodicy.

Starting with, for example, the God given coronavirus.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby Dan~ » Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:30 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Dan~ wrote:
After all, God and religion are deemed by others to be a distraction from the need to pursue more secular resolutions to the problems that plague the human race "down here"

Secularism is a failure.
It's about money and nonsense.

God is the highest goal / reality.
We should seek that first.


We'll need a context of course. Lots of them in fact.

And if a God, the God, your God is our highest goal, we''ll need to examine that God in the context of, say, theodicy.

Starting with, for example, the God given coronavirus.


As far as I can tell, right now, The God, is living in a higher dimension, and is not all-mighty.
Sometimes it takes God a long time to do something.
If God was fast, nature wouldn't be so old. Planets, stars and moons, are ancient.
The idea of God being the maximum amount of things, is a christian word game.

It's our job to treat the corona virus and overcome it.
God has his own things that he does.
Our lives matter and sometimes God needs us to do what is right.
He needs the support of his family, which is us and most life forms.

I may be wrong about any of these things,
but i want to be able to posit god stuff regardless of my imperfection.
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:49 pm

Dan,

Life is about the impossible task of having everyone be your friend. Can god do that? Maybe not. But all of us can strive for it, and that would make us godly.
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby Dan~ » Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:56 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Dan,

Life is about the impossible task of having everyone be your friend. Can god do that? Maybe not. But all of us can strive for it, and that would make us godly.


If everyone got along, the system before that would collapse, because it built momentum in its confliction.

But soon a new system would arise.
Support instead of exploitation.

Speaking of ultimate goals, there could be many revealed after one reaches high enough for one of them.
The ultimate is part of a continuum.
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby obsrvr524 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:03 pm

Dan~ wrote:But soon a new system would arise.
Support instead of exploitation.

What makes you believe that? Perhaps on a different thread.
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:07 pm

Dan~ wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Dan,

Life is about the impossible task of having everyone be your friend. Can god do that? Maybe not. But all of us can strive for it, and that would make us godly.


If everyone got along, the system before that would collapse, because it built momentum in its confliction.

But soon a new system would arise.
Support instead of exploitation.

Speaking of ultimate goals, there could be many revealed after one reaches high enough for one of them.
The ultimate is part of a continuum.


Dan,

You can learn anything, anything, anything about setting an impossible task for yourself.

Most people who “reach for the stars” haven’t even begun to set an impossible task for themselves.

Having set many impossible tasks for myself; I know this for a fact... they all lead to the same road:

We all live our desired experiences at nobodies expense.

How do you sometimes teach this without laying into people sometimes? I don’t think it’s possible. I use words Dan, words hurt more than violence. It hurts a lot, but it’s just soft power.
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby iambiguous » Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:32 pm

Dan~ wrote:As far as I can tell, right now, The God, is living in a higher dimension, and is not all-mighty.
Sometimes it takes God a long time to do something.
If God was fast, nature wouldn't be so old. Planets, stars and moons, are ancient.
The idea of God being the maximum amount of things, is a christian word game.

It's our job to treat the corona virus and overcome it.
God has his own things that he does.
Our lives matter and sometimes God needs us to do what is right.
He needs the support of his family, which is us and most life forms.

I may be wrong about any of these things,
but i want to be able to posit god stuff regardless of my imperfection.


Dan,

I suggest that we take this here: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=186929

I'll copy and paste your points above to that thread. And respond sometime tomorrow or the next day.

And I apologize to zinnat for not recommending the same above. This thread is and should remain about meditation.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:17 am

[quote="iambiguous"

Dan,

I suggest that we take this here: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=186929

I'll copy and paste your points above to that thread. And respond sometime tomorrow or the next day.

And I apologize to zinnat for not recommending the same above. This thread is and should remain about meditation.[/quote]


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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:12 am

If the posters have forgotten, Let me remind what i said in the starting of this thread--

It is not my intention to promote anything but to provide answers to only those who are already interested in the subject. I think that i am capable of doing that because of my long association and thus earned reasonable success with the subject. That is all.

Secondly, the concept/faith of the God is not required in the meditation, at least in the initial phase. That need arises quite later And only if one is able to reach that stage. Meditation is purely a mental/neurological exercise. Having said that it would certainly lead to some kind of faith, in one continues log enough. But, unlike hardcore religious theorists, i would advice to refrain practitioners from taking faith as a cornerstone. Let it manifest automatically because of the experiences, that would be a better way.

Let me share my personal experience to make it clearer. I started meditating in my late twenties and before that i was almost an atheistic. I was of the firm opinion that all this talk about God in all religions is useless. All these theories are manufactured by our ancestors to create fear of punishment in the societies to maintain social order, nothing else whatsoever.

I basically belong to a upper middle class family( of course by Indian standards) so i enjoyed a good childhood. After doing my masters in economics At the age of 22, i got involved in family business with my elder brother and father and got married at 24. Within four years i became a father of two children. Everything was going fine till then. But, after that because of some wrong business decisions, we suffered a very big loss and lost everything we had.

Then, i started to struggle in those unfamiliar circumstances and explored everything new that came across. We were facing quite a lot of litigation at that time because of all creditors sued us. During that time i met two Muslim persons who reintroduced me to worship. One of those was some kind of preacher/guru and he advised to meditate on some mantras of Godess Durga. I started it thinking that it would end my struggle. I was doing nothing at that time but only preparing and attending court cases so i had a quite of spare time so slowly i got fully involved.

This stage went for almost three years. And, those three years, I did nothing but attending courts 5-6 times in a month and meditation. i literally did it 24/7 and because of that i crossed both of those trigger points i mentioned above in this thread within those three years but nothing changed in my circumstances. Then i realized that i cannot lead my life in this way forever. After that, i sold my family house and settled our dues as a one time settlement. After getting rid from courts, I became a working partner in a construction firm and left my city. I worked with that person for twenty years. In the meantime, both of my children became IT engineers an got employed, so i left the job and came back to my home to live my alone wife. That happened about 6-7 years ago.

But, the habit of meditation which i developed during those 3 initial years, never left me. Now, i cannot sleep without meditation or i do it everyday when i go to sleep. This is an unbroken routine since last thirty years. The purpose of telling my telling my story is enable others can understand how faith develops in due course though not necessary initially. But now, it is unshakeable an irrefutable too.

Second point which i want to raise here is meditation is areligious, though not unreligious because it would lead to some king of faith sooner or later but no particular religion has copyright on meditation, It is found in all religions in one form or other. What i mean to say that there is no such thing called Indian meditation, as many put it forth. I live in India and a Hindu both by birth and religion. A Muslim introduced me into meditation, though by Hindu mantras but i use both of Hindu and Muslim mantras for meditation an they yield the same result.

As i mentioned already in this thread that the only thing require in the meditation is concentration. That concentration may manifest for many different reasons. In my case, deep desire to get rid of my struggle caused it. Something other may work of some other person, like loosing someone very dear or having very deep curiosity to know the unknown. All we have to do it is to channel that deep emotion into meditation. Say, if one loves someone very deeply so it would be better to him/her to remember to that person just before repeating and concentrating on mantras. That would help a lot.

So technically speaking, it is irrelevant whether you concentrate on particular mantras, Buddha, Nietzsche or even Ashley Graham, The result is going to be the same.

I would go back again to the methodology of the meditation in the next post, unless posters have any question or clarification.

with love.
sanjay
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby phyllo » Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:27 pm

Wait, did that just happen? A thread didn't get hijacked?

I'm so proud of you guys. O:)
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:46 pm

phyllo wrote:Wait, did that just happen? A thread didn't get hijacked?

I'm so proud of you guys. O:)


Me too.

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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:35 am

Let us resume.

Before going for the practical part, i think that some more clarification about the bio-neurological mechanism of the humans is needed here in order to manifest clear understanding.

As i have mentioned before in the thread,Meditation is a type/ part of dying so that begs a question, how exactly we become alive! After understanding that process, we have to reverse-engineer it. The mind, amalgamated with consciousness enters in the body from the top of the head into our physical brain, makes a permanent base there, then continues to go down and ultimately spreads to all parts of the body. But, its main control always remains at the brain. That is how we become alive. Now, in meditation we have reverse this very process. Means, somehow we have to withdraw consciousness from the lower parts of the body and make it moves towards the brain again. But, as per our basic premise, consciousness is not a doing entity so it cannot do that alone but with the help of the mind only.

One very important thing to understand her is consciousness does not need to be enlightened because being enteral and unchangeable, it is always enlightened. We have to enable our mind to competent enough to witness or realize that. So, it is not consciousness that lead to enlightened but mind only. That is precisely why it is called a necessary evil in almost all major religions. Eating of fruit of knowledge by adam and eve at Eden in Christianity and the concept of Yetzer Hara in judaism are clear examples of this. Most theologians get it wrong. The desire of eating the apple of knowledge was not caused by any evil or satanic force. God always wanted and knew that adam and eve would eat the apple. It was not disobedience but merely going through the process of overcoming the process of desiring. And, Satan supervises that process. He was not a outcast but placed there to watch and help humans to go through the process because he was the only angel who showed that he can handle free will Judicially while all others merely blindly followed what god asked hem to do. It was a test conducted by the god to discern the worthy angel to govern the human realm. And, only satan passed that test. So, now he puts all of us on that very test. But, besides that he also help us to get ready for the test too. So. we have to beat satan to be one with the god or in other words, we have to reach that stage when we can control the manifestation of the will. Again, it is not about whether we will this or that but whether we can control will from manifesting in the first place or not. That is detachment.

Nietzsche was a very intelligent person but because of being unaware of basic premises, as generally happens in the cases of pure intellectual philosophers, he was also unable to understand what is happening. It was never about Will to power as he put it but only power to will. And. that slight change changes the whole meaning. He took initial will for granted in his premise and assumes that there must be will present always but it is not. We also have power to control the will manifestation, then the question of will to power never arise. Religions deuced it more deeply and accurately.

Now, i think that we are ready for the practical part.

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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:59 am

Sorry guys, kind of busy of late. Try to post tomorrow.

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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:17 am

Now we can talk about the practical part.

As i mentioned before in this thread many times that one can choose the posture and mantra for repetition as per one's choice or belief. That is not going to make any difference. So, let us assume that one has taken the posture as one likes and started repeating any particular mantra.

Now, there are many ways of repeating the mantra. We can divide those into three categories. One by tongue, one by throat, one purely by mind. As per my experience and understanding, a meditator goes through these stages one by one. It always start from using the tongue, then by throat an lastly by mind only. Having said that, one one can do that purely by mind from the starting, it is good and worth trying. If it does not work, revert back to tongue methodology. But make sure that the movement of the tongue should be so subtle that it would not be able manifest any audible sound. The basic idea is to hear from the mind only, not by ears.

So, let us assume that one has started repeating the mantra continuously slowly. His/her tongue will move slowly. Let it be. That is not important here and no need to force the issue either. The more important issue here to keep the focus of the mind on the sound of the repetition. Means, one has to hear the voice of the repetition in his mind. That is all, do nothing else but just keep doing it.

Now, let me go into what one is going to feel if one does it In order to keep readers on right path. If one is able to keep concentration, the most provable is that one would feel the words of mantra popping in his/her mind also. That is natural and nothing to worry. The reason is that though in practical world, we use different senses/organs for seeing and hearing, but for thinking we use only one organ which is mind. So, deep down there, a the level of the mind, we cannot hear without seeing and vice-verse. Anyone who tries this will realize what i am saying. When you repeat the mantra slowly, the pictures of those wordings will appear in your mind by default. You will not able to stop it even if you want.

So, now we have two things before us to concentrate upon, the sound of the repetition and the pictures of those wordings. From my experience, i can say with some certainty that we cannot focus on both things at once so we have to choose. Although one can choose either but my suggestion would be to keep focus on the sound of repetition instead of the pictures because that is easier and we can maintain our concentration longer also in that way.

Now, assuming that is trying that, let me get into how one feels during that time, what difficulties may come and how to overcome those.

Given all that, one may think that it is all simple and can be done easily but actually it is just opposite. It is quite difficult but still doable. The difficulty is because of the default nature of the mind. It does not like to be tamed down but want to wander freely always. We generally get so busy always so fail to realize its this phenomenon.

To understand this, let us do a thought experiment. Anyone can do it himself /herself also. Sit totally alone in a room with only a pen and paper and start writing on that paper honestly whatever comes in you mind. Do it for 15 mins and show any other person the paper without telling him/her that you wrote it.. The other person would immediately say that the writer of this paper is insane and should be treated medically. This is true for us all. if one does not believe me, he/she can test it but do it honestly. Do not try to manufacture the content of the paper thinking that you have it show it to any other person.

There is nothing extraordinary in this because this is what we are. To be honest, we all are insane inside but we somehow keep a lid to that insanity so it does not come out normally but only in extraordinary circumstances like in extreme emotional stages or under the influence of the drugs etc. It comes out only because all this reside in us always in the first place and as soon as we lose the grip slightly for whatever reasons, it gets released.

To be continued-

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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:38 am

Let us talk a bit about more what difficulties one may face during this initial phase of meditation.

First of all, i have to remind readers again that they have to be in a pose whatever they feel most comfortable and start repeating mantra they want to choose. Then, they have to keep focus on the sound of that repetition. Two conditions are very important here and should be maintained. First, after taking their desired pose, no body part should not move at all, not even the tip of the fingers. And second, the eyes should remain closed as long as they are meditating. Violation of either of these conditions will nullify their effort. Here, it is a quite natural question to come in one's mind why are these conditions so important in the first place!

The reason for not moving the body is required because our consciousness is spread throughout the whole body with the help of the mind. And, in order to achieve anything meaningful through meditation, we have to withdraw all of out mind and consciousness from the whole body back to the mind. But, if we keep moving parts of out body, both of mind and consciousness will keep focussing on those moving parts and never able to concentrate fully back to the mind. The same is with the eyes. The eyes are default centres for the mind so as long they are open, the mind has no choice but to focus on what is seen by the eyes. So, we have to shut down that outlet of distraction too.

A very important tip which i have forgotten to mention, may help in a very big way. When you choose a mantra and start repeating it, try to synchronize it with your breath. Means, adjust the wordings or time taken in repeating the mantra in such a away by using some pause here and there so that you can repeat the mantra one time exactly in one cycle of your breath. This can help a lot. the reason for this is that if we sync the times of manta and one breath and keep doing it sufficient time, sooner or later the stage will come when repeating the mantra in the mind will become a default process when ever you sit alone.

If anyone owns any pets, especially dogs, will understand what i am suggesting. How we train dogs, like let them understand/remember their name! The easiest way to do this is to give them something to eat with calling their chosen name. And, after some time, the dog starts responding to their names even without giving them food. What happens is that as both actions of receiving food and hearing the name happens simultaneously, their mind makes some sort of connection between those and starts responding in the same way even at the absence on one. Another common such example is of smokers smoking cigarette while going to toilet. Apparently, there is no medical reasoning for nicotine in having bowel movements, but as most smokers use to smoke at toilets, so their mind and body make some sort of connection between smoking and having bowel movements. And, most smokers cannot have bowel movements without smoking. I myself is an example of that. There are many other such examples too.

So, we can use this phenomenon to help in our meditation. If we can somehow breathe and repeat the mantras in complete sync for long enough, the stage will come when only focus on breathing will manifest the repetition of mantras automatically. This may look impossible to some but it is true. I know it from my personal experience. As i am doing it since last 30 years, so now even closing the eyes is enough for me. As soon as i close my eyes, the repetition of the mantra start in my mind. The focus on the breath has also been bypassed now. Now, i do not even need to lie down straight. Whether i am in the bed, in the train, in the car or anywhere else, as soon as i close my eyes, the repetition automatically starts without much effort from me. My mind knows that he has to do this now.

There are some more points which i will cover in the next post.

with love,
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:24 am

Let us talk about the mind more which will help in understanding the experiences, process and effects of the meditation on us.

Basically out mind behaves just like our physical body. As we have different organs in our body to execute different tasks, like feet for walking, hands for holding an picking, eyes for seeing etc, in the same way the mind also have different parts/organs to execute different tasks. In other words we can say that the mind works in four different ways. Namely- imagination(thinking), wisdom(analyzing), memory, ego( execution, will power). If we look carefully, we will find that we have to use these all four parts/qualities of the mind to perform any task.

let us take an example to understand this more clearly.

Let us take an example of having a beer. First of all, the thought of having a beer must have crossed to the mind. That thought may have come for any reason but the mind must have think about this before anything. Then comes wisdom or analyzing power. After thinking of having a beer, the next thing we will do to think whether we should have one or not, whether it is right time or not, or one's health allows it or not. We will judge its pros or cons then decide accordingly. Let us say we decide to have a beer. Now, the memory part takes over as we will think how we can get a beer, like is there one in the fridge, or we have to buy it, if so from which shop and which brand etc. Lastly we go for it means, we start executing that decision, like take it out from the fridge or go to the shop to buy one and have it. The work is complete now.

We all have all these four qualities of the mind But not in the same proportion. That depends how often we use different qualities of the mind. Just as a runner develops strong legs and a blacksmith develops strong hands and arms because they tend to use a particular set of muscles again and again, in the same way, the strength of these four qualities of the mind also depends upon their repetitive use. Like artists use their imagination power more so that increases more than other three. A philosopher uses wisdom more, a student uses memory more and a meditator uses elocutionary power the most.

The important thing to understand here is that any act cannot be competed without using all these four qualities. Having said that, it is not necessary that all four qualities of the mind must be used in the same quantity every time. But, all four qualities must be used, no matter how big or how small their individual contribution
may be. As some actions happen very swiftly, like in a split of a second but even in those cases, all qualities come in use but it looks to us that we miss some steps but that is not true.

As i said above, meditation is all about execution or will power, means, we are training our will power to supersede all other three. So, with practice, the will power of the mind becomes strong enough to keep it focused on desired purpose. Having said that, other three qualities never cease to exist but only kept in control. So, we can see how much long practice is important. Besides that, strengthening of will power helps a lot in other aspects of life too.

with love,
sanjay
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:57 am

Now let us go back to the practical part of the meditation and discuss finer points.

For that we have to assume that one has taken his/her desired final posture and starts focussing on the repetition of the mantras of one's choice with closed eyes.

The important thing to understand here though any part of the body is not supposed to be moved at all after taking desired posture but the body should not be stiff at all but loose completely. No physical force is required here. it rather can be done by mind only. There is a way of doing it.

First of all, relax your body completely without moving it. Take some deep breaths and start thinking that you are withdrawing your consciousness from all parts of the body back to your mind. Start doing it from the farthest parts like tip of the tows and fingers. Assume that they are getting numb and continue this for 2-3 minutes and you will actually feel like there is no life left in your body. Now, start repeating chosen mantras in your mind and keep your focus on it. And, just keep doing it as long as possible. I think that 15 min would be good enough for starters for a session. Take some rest after every 15 min. Have some walk or drink a cup of tea of coffee and then repeat a session again. You can do as many sessions as long as you feel comfortable. And, after some time you can increase the time of sessions gradually too but try to increase it gradually not at once.

In the starting, one may feel somewhat tiredness or slight rigidness/pain in the body but it will go away as you move your body after each session. Walking slowly for few mins works best in this case.

This is for the body. In the next post i will discuss the mental implications of doing this and how to handle those.

One important thing here for the readers. This thread has been almost a monologue since its starting. Though i do not mind that but if anyone has any further questions/clarifications, i would be happy to answer. I know that many people hesitate to ask even if they want to know further. Readers can also PM me if they want.

with love,
sanjay
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:45 am

Now, let us talk about what happens to the mind during meditation. This post is very important thus readers should pay full attention to it.

As i said before in this thread that it is quite difficult to control the mind and keep it focussed on any one thing for long time. I can tell from my experience how one is going to feel during meditation.

As one tries to focus on the repetition of the mantras, the feeling of restlessness takes over. As long as one continues, this feeling goes stronger to stronger. The mind will keep asking to stop it and you will not find any reason for it too. However, it is almost essential to get over it. No further progress can be made without it. Mind will keep wandering here and there but you have to keep pulling the focus of your mind back to the repetition again and again. It is a continuous struggle which never ends.

I myself have gone through this phase. When i started focussing on the repetition, i was able to keep my focus for some time but then from nowhere some total unconcerning thoughts used to pop up there which clearly had no correlation with my present frame of the mind, like what happened in my school when i was in 3rd class or what i saw in a dream a month back. I thought a lot about this and came to the conclusion that my (conscious) mind is not thinking all this. These thoughts must belong to someone else.

Let us assume that i do not want to get out from my room, then no one can force me to do so. I can stay in a particular room as along as i want. Which means that my body is in my total control. But, in the same way, if i want to focus on a particular thing for long time, my mind refuses to do so. Why? Do i not own my mind completely?
Is there someone else who co-owns it?

I did not find any answer of the question for a long time but i kept meditating. My mind continue to wander again and again and i have to bring it back to the repetition. Meanwhile, I somehow felt that the irrelevant thoughts are becoming somehow clearer. In other words, i can feel those more closely. Not only that, i wan able to start discerning what i(conscious mind) am thinking from what is coming from outside of it. I do not remember correctly now as it was a long time back but it took me 2-3 months to realize that those irrelevant thoughts are from unconscious(soul's) mind.

All this is going to happen with anyone who is going to try sincerely thus i have mentioned my personal experience of it. Your mind will keep slipping from your control and you will able to realize that even after some time that you are not concentrating on mantras.

it is not the case that all this distraction happens during meditation only. it happens all the time but normally we have so much noise in our minds that we are unable to realize this but as that noise decreases a lot during meditation thus we can discern the working of conscious mind from unconscious one. And, as the conscious mind becomes stronger with practice, these distractions will become less and less.

There is a lot more about this issue to discuss and that i will take in the next post.

Again, as this may sound a bit confusing to some thus any further clarifications are welcome.

with love,
sanjay
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:03 am

Let us continue from the last post.

When we try to focus continuously on the repetition on the mantras, after some time when we become able to maintain the focus successfully for slightly longer intervals, the feeing of dizziness takes over. We tend to feel than we should sleep now and that happens in reality too. In the initial phase, most meditators fall asleep during meditation. It may happen for very short intervals like 1-2 mins to 1-2 hours. Mostly it starts happening in hours timeframe but keep decreasing with practice.

Some may fear at this stage wondering what is happening to them or whether their efforts are going in vain. But, it is not an issue. Rather. it is a natural outcome of meditation. In Hinduism it is called Yog-Nidra which means meditative sleep. This stage is also mentioned in Sufism. It says that this stage of somnolence must come. In most cases, people do not remember what has happened during sleep but have the strong feeling that they must have experienced something.

With passing time an practice, this time time period of Somnolence keeps decreasing and comes down to 1-2 minutes and ever to seconds. You will feel a short burst of of sleep of some seconds and mind will go back again to the repetition. A short burst again after some time and again back to repetition. But, you will still not able to remember what happened during that short burst of sleep.

Again, as i mentioned in this thread before, this stage of Somnolence is the result of the struggle or dominance between conscious and unconscious mind. When we are awake, conscious mind takes over active role while unconscious mind remain passive. In other words, in awaken stage, conscious mind does the work while unconscious just witness what is happening. But, during sleep their role reverses as unconscious does the doing while conscious witness it. This is precisely what happens in the dreams too. That is why many times in the dreams we feel that we should not do or behave in a particular way but we do and we cannot stop doing it either. As a thumb rule, conscious mind cannot interfere with the working of the unconscious.

There is too much of that kind of knowledge/experiences which are forbidden to conscious mind so when conscious mind reaches at tapping that, unconscious mind has no option but to induce sleep in order to stop it. It may sound strange to some people when i say that having the knowledge of the unconscious mind is not allowed for humans and for good reasons too. In other words, humans are not supposed to meditate. One may ask why? The answer is that the reason is the same why god forbid adam and eve from eating the apple from the tree of knowledge.

So, over time and with practice, these short bursts of sleep keep decreasing and a time comes when the meditator starts hanging between sleep and awakening. Then, all of a sudden, the meditator may hear a short sound byte or see a short video clip from the other side. This may be anything, a glimpse of place, a picture or a voice of someone.

This is precisely what i mentioned as a first threshold above in this thread. This is first encounter of the unknown or first forced entry of the conscious mind into the unconscious.

This is still to continue-

with love,
sanjay
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby MagsJ » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:13 am

obsrvr524 wrote:
MagsJ wrote:The science behind meditation has been researched, many years ago now.

Science has reported on studies involving people who have been practicing it. They said nothing about the many who tried it and gave up because of no evidentiary affect upon them. I doubt they have even bothered with a statistical study.

The science they reported has been that meditation works to the positive (for those who have been doing it - not necessarily for all people perhaps not even for half of the people due to their individual situations). But that is all they can say. They can say NOTHING about how or why it helps those few. How and why meditation helps anyone is still completely superstitious postulation.

Meditation is exercising and disciplining the psychological, just as we do with the physical.. sculpting both body and mind, to aid in coping with our existence, responsibilities, and choices.. both, working, when done regularly enough.

Perhaps it is in maintaining the consistency of practice, is where most fail, in getting anything out of it. Perhaps it is a specific mind-set endeavour.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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