Meditation, some answers

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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:20 am

MagsJ wrote:Meditation is exercising and disciplining the psychological, just as we do with the physical.. sculpting both body and mind, to aid in coping with our existence, responsibilities, and choices.. both, working, when done regularly enough.


True.

MagsJ wrote:
Perhaps it is in maintaining the consistency of practice, is where most fail, in getting anything out of it.


True again. And, when people fail because of the lack of desired effort, they put blame of the concept itself.

MagsJ wrote: Perhaps it is a specific mind-set endeavour.


This is partially right but partially wrong too.

Technically speaking, everyone is capable of endeavoring and succeeding too but that does not materialize in reality.

As per my understanding, it is vey difficult to get something out of it with the mindset of normal circumstances, though not impossible. Usually, One needs some extra kick (intensity) in order to successful in that. I think that extra intensity can come only for three reasons. Very deep and earnest desire to know the unknown, a very deep faith in something or someone and lastly desperation caused by the circumstances.
In my case, it started from the third option, then it moved to the second and lastly to the third one.

The thing is that one has to give it all that one has. And, Only then the process starts but usually giving all does not happen in normal circumstances.

with love,
sanjay
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:25 am

The second reason of the failure in having any substantial gain by meditation in the majority of the cases is the non-availability of accomplished teachers.

I have tried very seriously for a quite long time in acquiring any kind of teaching/instructor position in any of the recognized meditation institute but failed miserably. They all have very strange benchmarks. Many said that they are interested only in Buddhist meditation teachers while others ask whether i have completed any course or not. All that tells about their understanding of the meditation. They are more interested in literature an certificates, not real practical knowledge, which i think that i am more than competent to provide.

Meditation is all about practical knowledge and experiences. No book can teach you that, ever. Believe me that I am not exaggerating when i say that not many living persons in this world as of now may know about meditation more than me but it is not serving any purpose to others. Sometimes i feel sorry for that but i cannot do anything about that.

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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby MagsJ » Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:47 am

zinnat wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Most say that it’s not the process but what they fear they will encounter along the way, that is the prohibitory factor of starting the process..

I am more than sure that there is nothing to fear about at all.

though I’m sure that hearing the experience from another may help others overcome that fear,

Yes.

but in my experience it hasn’t.

In that case, these must be something going wrong. If you are interested i can help you in correcting the course. Or, you can simply keep reading my posts here. perhaps, that would be helpful also.

I meant: in my experience of what others have told me, and not that I need to overcome that fear.. I’ve spent the last few years doing just that.. it was rather unpleasant, I can tell you.

I took that journey because I wasn’t content with where I previously was mentally, and I now feel much lighter and unburdened, of mind.. so replacing the old/useless thought patters, with the new/useful ones. Quite the painful process, but it had to be done.. for progression’s sake.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby MagsJ » Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:18 am

zinnat wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Meditation is exercising and disciplining the psychological, just as we do with the physical.. sculpting both body and mind, to aid in coping with our existence, responsibilities, and choices.. both, working, when done regularly enough.
True.
MagsJ wrote:Perhaps it is in maintaining the consistency of practice, is where most fail, in getting anything out of it.
True again. And, when people fail because of the lack of desired effort, they put blame of the concept itself.

Perhaps because they don’t want to feel like they failed in the endeavour?

I find, that it’s a process of constantly moving forward mentally, and maintaining that constant state of flowing-thought.

zinnat wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Perhaps it is a specific mind-set endeavour.
This is partially right but partially wrong too.

Technically speaking, everyone is capable of endeavoring and succeeding too but that does not materialize in reality.

As per my understanding, it is vey difficult to get something out of it with the mindset of normal circumstances, though not impossible. Usually, One needs some extra kick (intensity) in order to successful in that. I think that extra intensity can come only for three reasons. Very deep and earnest desire to know the unknown, a very deep faith in something or someone and lastly desperation caused by the circumstances.
In my case, it started from the third option, then it moved to the second and lastly to the third one.

The thing is that one has to give it all that one has. And, Only then the process starts but usually giving all does not happen in normal circumstances.

Yes.. circumstance made me (have to) do it. Now it’s just maintenance and upkeep, of which I’ll hopefully do for an eternity, to maintain the mind-over-matter state, of unfettered youth.. an example being, going from a plank to a cross-legged-seated pose in one move, which I was recently able to do again, once I’d meditated on it for many many days.

So I’d say.. meditation is about redirecting our energies, to achieve a desired outcome.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby Berkley Babes » Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:46 pm

You seem to be advocating mindfulness, which IS helpful, but I feel that severing the connection to the "naughty monkey" as you called it, is possible and the true aim. Stop the thought train, for a little while anyway.
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:16 pm

MagsJ wrote:
zinnat wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Most say that it’s not the process but what they fear they will encounter along the way, that is the prohibitory factor of starting the process..

I am more than sure that there is nothing to fear about at all.

though I’m sure that hearing the experience from another may help others overcome that fear,

Yes.

but in my experience it hasn’t.

In that case, these must be something going wrong. If you are interested i can help you in correcting the course. Or, you can simply keep reading my posts here. perhaps, that would be helpful also.

I meant: in my experience of what others have told me, and not that I need to overcome that fear.. I’ve spent the last few years doing just that.. it was rather unpleasant, I can tell you.

I am still not getting it. What exactly you mean by unpleasant? can you elaborate further?

I took that journey because I wasn’t content with where I previously was mentally, and I now feel much lighter and unburdened, of mind.. so replacing the old/useless thought patters, with the new/useful ones. Quite the painful process, but it had to be done.. for progression’s sake.


with love,
sanjay
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:26 pm

MagsJ wrote:
zinnat wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Meditation is exercising and disciplining the psychological, just as we do with the physical.. sculpting both body and mind, to aid in coping with our existence, responsibilities, and choices.. both, working, when done regularly enough.
True.
MagsJ wrote:Perhaps it is in maintaining the consistency of practice, is where most fail, in getting anything out of it.
True again. And, when people fail because of the lack of desired effort, they put blame of the concept itself.

Perhaps because they don’t want to feel like they failed in the endeavour?

Perhaps, yes.

I find, that it’s a process of constantly moving forward mentally, and maintaining that constant state of flowing-thought.

zinnat wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Perhaps it is a specific mind-set endeavour.
This is partially right but partially wrong too.

Technically speaking, everyone is capable of endeavoring and succeeding too but that does not materialize in reality.

As per my understanding, it is vey difficult to get something out of it with the mindset of normal circumstances, though not impossible. Usually, One needs some extra kick (intensity) in order to successful in that. I think that extra intensity can come only for three reasons. Very deep and earnest desire to know the unknown, a very deep faith in something or someone and lastly desperation caused by the circumstances.
In my case, it started from the third option, then it moved to the second and lastly to the third one.

The thing is that one has to give it all that one has. And, Only then the process starts but usually giving all does not happen in normal circumstances.

Yes.. circumstance made me (have to) do it.

My guess is that happens in the majority of the cases.

Now it’s just maintenance and upkeep, of which I’ll hopefully do for an eternity, to maintain the mind-over-matter state, of unfettered youth.. an example being, going from a plank to a cross-legged-seated pose in one move, which I was recently able to do again, once I’d meditated on it for many many days.

So I’d say.. meditation is about redirecting our energies, to achieve a desired outcome.

Yes, Meditation is certainly about redirecting mental focus and energies but still one cannot be sure about the outcome. No one can know in advance what is awaiting there. One can know only when one gets there. My experience is that no one can pre-guess it.


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sanjay
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:55 pm

Berkley Babes wrote:You seem to be advocating mindfulness, which IS helpful, but I feel that severing the connection to the "naughty monkey" as you called it, is possible and the true aim. Stop the thought train, for a little while anyway.


Severing the connection to the naughty monkey is not possible. No one is capable of doing that, not even the enlightened ones.The best we can do is to realize that there is a naughty monkey and thereafter learning how to coexist with it without getting influenced from it.

The problem here is that the enlightenment resides in all of us in the form of consciousness but it is amalgamated with the mind and cannot be separated in normal circumstances. Thus, the only thing that can enable us to realize our hidden enlightenment is mind but besides that mind plays its own tricks also. It is mischievous but it is the only mean which can help us to get these. So, in a way it is a necessary evil, evil but still necessary.

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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby Berkley Babes » Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:17 pm

zinnat wrote:
Berkley Babes wrote:You seem to be advocating mindfulness, which IS helpful, but I feel that severing the connection to the "naughty monkey" as you called it, is possible and the true aim. Stop the thought train, for a little while anyway.


Severing the connection to the naughty monkey is not possible. No one is capable of doing that, not even the enlightened ones.The best we can do is to realize that there is a naughty monkey and thereafter learning how to coexist with it without getting influenced from it.

The problem here is that the enlightenment resides in all of us in the form of consciousness but it is amalgamated with the mind and cannot be separated in normal circumstances. Thus, the only thing that can enable us to realize our hidden enlightenment is mind but besides that mind plays its own tricks also. It is mischievous but it is the only mean which can help us to get these. So, in a way it is a necessary evil, evil but still necessary.

With love,
sanjay


What do you say then about reaching or experiencing any of the stages of Jhana? I experienced the 4th stage just focusing on the breath. I felt separated from the naughty monkey then, if only for a short while. Eventually thoughts returned.
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby MagsJ » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:42 am

zinnat wrote:
MagsJ wrote:I meant: in my experience of what others have told me, and not that I need to overcome that fear.. I’ve spent the last few years doing just that.. it was rather unpleasant, I can tell you.

I am still not getting it. What exactly you mean by unpleasant? can you elaborate further?

I took that journey because I wasn’t content with where I previously was mentally, and I now feel much lighter and unburdened, of mind.. so replacing the old/useless thought patterns, with the new/useful ones. Quite the painful process, but it had to be done.. for progression’s sake.

By unpleasant, I mean draining, both on my physical and mental well-being.. all my energy, or what little I had of it at the time, was spent in a constant state of thinking and thought-processing, until I had gotten through all the mental clutter and on to a place of contentment and non-buffering thoughts.

Now it’s just about maintenance, and that’s a great place to have finally achieved arriving at, but it was a long and arduous route I took.. and not the path most trod.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby MagsJ » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:44 pm

MagsJ wrote:
zinnat wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Perhaps it is a specific mind-set endeavour.
This is partially right but partially wrong too.

Technically speaking, everyone is capable of endeavoring and succeeding too but that does not materialize in reality.

As per my understanding, it is vey difficult to get something out of it with the mindset of normal circumstances, though not impossible. Usually, One needs some extra kick (intensity) in order to successful in that. I think that extra intensity can come only for three reasons. Very deep and earnest desire to know the unknown, a very deep faith in something or someone and lastly desperation caused by the circumstances.
In my case, it started from the third option, then it moved to the second and lastly to the third one.

The thing is that one has to give it all that one has. And, Only then the process starts but usually giving all does not happen in normal circumstances.
Yes.. circumstance made me (have to) do it.

My guess is that happens in the majority of the cases.

Now it’s just maintenance and upkeep, of which I’ll hopefully do for an eternity, to maintain the mind-over-matter state, of unfettered youth.. an example being, going from a plank to a cross-legged-seated pose in one move, which I was recently able to do again, once I’d meditated on it for many many days.

So I’d say.. meditation is about redirecting our energies, to achieve a desired outcome.

Yes, Meditation is certainly about redirecting mental focus and energies but still one cannot be sure about the outcome. No one can know in advance what is awaiting there. One can know only when one gets there. My experience is that no one can pre-guess it.

My guess is that happens in the majority of the cases.

So a necessity will always trigger the need to go there, to go beyond the self’s capacity for rhyme and reason and to have to reformulate/develop a whole new mind set.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:08 am

Berkley Babes wrote:
What do you say then about reaching or experiencing any of the stages of Jhana? I experienced the 4th stage just focusing on the breath. I felt separated from the naughty monkey then, if only for a short while. Eventually thoughts returned.


Focussing on the breath is an easily available an effective choice.

As i found it, just like most of the other meditation practices, Jana Meditation as postulated in Jainism does not offer practical details. The details are incomplete and vague. The exact and precise step and step instructions are missing.

Having said that, if Jana is working well for someone, he/she should continue with that.

Satvapati, as named as a fourth stage in Jana meditation, comes quite late in the process. If you have read my all previous posts in this thread, i mentioned this fourth stage of Jana as the second Trigger point.

Here it is---

As i mentioned already in the thread, humans are three folded entities- the innermost consciousness, middle layer of soul and outermost existence of human. The important point here to remember that these three layers become one to form a human, yet keep their separate existence, Something like a detachable system. Going further, at first level, consciousness merges with the soul, then this mixture further permeates into human body to form a complete (alive) human.

Meditation is nothing but reverse engineering this process of human formation, step by step.

At first, consciousness mergers with soul and gives life to the soul. As a thumb rule, and without any exception, anything that becomes alive, has to die also at some point of time. This period of life may vary and that depends on which kind of batter is forming the body. The subtler the body, the more its life span would be, which could be from some years to some thousand years. But, this is a different subject altogether an let us not go there now to avoid confusion.

Secondly, the consciousness must be there to make anything alive. And, mind also comes embedded with the consciousness because it is a part of consciousness, however intruded it may be. Given that, mind is also eternal. it cannot either die or stop working even for a second. So, this concept of stopping the thoughts or emptying the mind is oxymoron.. No one can do it ever, whether an average person or even an enlightened one. Yes, we can slow down its activity to some extent or keep it engaged where we want but that is it.

Now, the soul's body, embedded with consciousness and mind, enters into human body and makes it alive. After entering into human's body, the mind divides into two parts. One original portion remains with soul while the newly formed portion goes with human body. As it is new thus it knows nothing and learns as humans get different experiences during their life. I am not sure how it happens or being managed but there is some sort of veil between these two parts of the mind. Even both parts affect each other but generally it is a one way traffic from soul's mind to human's mind or from subconscious to conscious. It is conscious mind who meditate which makes it stronger and eventually strong enough to convert this default one way traffic into two way. When this happens, the human's mind starts getting the glimpses of what is going on into soul's mind.

And, that is precisely the trigger point as i mentioned above. But, unlike the methodology of the space rockets, there are two triggers points in the spiritual journey. One is which i mentioned just now when one gets the glimpse of soul's mind for the first time and there comes a second one also but quite later in the journey so let us leave that for the later too. in other words, we can say that the spiritual journey is also divided into three parts. The first part starts from starting to the happening of the first trigger, then from first trigger to the second trigger, then lastly from the second trigger to the final destination. Having said that there are any many intermediate stages between all broad three stages also.


So, the fourth stage of Jana is this second trigger point as i mentioned in above post.

But, these is lot more than besides having concentration that happens at this point, which includes physical experiences too. I have not mentioned that yet but i will.
Secondly, i you have any other questions, i would suggest you go through the whole thread very carefully once again.

with love,
sanjay
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:04 am

MagsJ wrote:By unpleasant, I mean draining, both on my physical and mental well-being.. all my energy, or what little I had of it at the time, was spent in a constant state of thinking and thought-processing, until I had gotten through all the mental clutter and on to a place of contentment and non-buffering thoughts.

Now it’s just about maintenance, and that’s a great place to have finally achieved arriving at, but it was a long and arduous route I took.. and not the path most trod.


I think i understand what you are saying.

Sincere meditation certainly is quite physical and mental draining. Not only that, it also sometimes creates disturbances in normal life routine. That is precisely the reason why in old times, Extreme meditation was not prescribed for common people but to scholars only, wo had no worldly obligations. Having said that, practicing a little of it without going all in is quite doable for folks.

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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:09 pm

Sorry guys, I am shifting home and that will keep me busy until 5th.

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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby MagsJ » Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:26 am

zinnat wrote:
MagsJ wrote:By unpleasant, I mean draining, both on my physical and mental well-being.. all my energy, or what little I had of it at the time, was spent in a constant state of thinking and thought-processing, until I had gotten through all the mental clutter and on to a place of contentment and non-buffering thoughts.

Now it’s just about maintenance, and that’s a great place to have finally achieved arriving at, but it was a long and arduous route I took.. and not the path most trod.
I think i understand what you are saying.

Sincere meditation certainly is quite physical and mental draining. Not only that, it also sometimes creates disturbances in normal life routine. That is precisely the reason why in old times, Extreme meditation was not prescribed for common people but to scholars only, wo had no worldly obligations. Having said that, practicing a little of it without going all in is quite doable for folks.

I immersed myself into it fully, like one does when taking a hot bath.. I had nothing much else to do, and so it kinda just happened. Once started, there was no stopping.. it made me very anti-social though, due to becoming submerged in mainly only affairs of the mind.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:57 am

Yes, that happens in many cases, especially if one is able to cross the first or both trigger points. That causes so much new experiences and knowledge that it overwhelms one's mind and as the result, focus and attention to routine life decreases considerably. That risk is always there for serious meditators. But, over the time, one can easily develop the capacity to live with it.

That happened to me too but I learned to cope with it.

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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby MagsJ » Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:38 am

zinnat wrote:Yes, that happens in many cases, especially if one is able to cross the first or both trigger points. That causes so much new experiences and knowledge that it overwhelms one's mind and as the result, focus and attention to routine life decreases considerably. That risk is always there for serious meditators. But, over the time, one can easily develop the capacity to live with it.

That happened to me too but I learned to cope with it.

Yes.. because you have no choice, but to. :D

I shall let you continue sharing your meditative experiences,
..and look forward to reading them.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:29 pm

MagsJ wrote:
zinnat wrote:Yes, that happens in many cases, especially if one is able to cross the first or both trigger points. That causes so much new experiences and knowledge that it overwhelms one's mind and as the result, focus and attention to routine life decreases considerably. That risk is always there for serious meditators. But, over the time, one can easily develop the capacity to live with it.

That happened to me too but I learned to cope with it.

Yes.. because you have no choice, but to. :D

I shall let you continue sharing your meditative experiences,
..and look forward to reading them.


For me, it was never about not having any other choice. Once there was a time, when I was almost ready to become a full time meditator forever and leaving the family but then I realised that it is not the right way, at least for me. I cannot turn by back to other obligations I have because I do that, my training and testing would not complete and I have to go through all that again I one way or other. I cannot escape my destiny ( karmas).

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Sanjay
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby Berkley Babes » Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:34 pm

The soul's mind is great and pure. I can't wait for everyone to experience it ... again?
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby promethean75 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:42 pm

Oh snap that's who I was forgetting earlier. 'Guide'. Find that guy, dites. Talks like he's straight out of the eighteenth century and I ain't even frontin on that. Knows Latin and all that shit.
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby promethean75 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:04 pm

Why did I put ^^^ post in this thread? wtf is going on here.
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Re: Meditation, some answers

Postby zinnat » Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:17 am

Guys, sorry for the delay. Some family obligations have come up. May not able to post this week. Perhaps from Monday.

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