Do you really love philosophy?

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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby Arminius » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:27 pm

If you like (or even „love“?) the philosophy, you may probably also like (or even „love“?) the arts, for example, the poetry, the visual arts, and especially the music.

Here some art examples I like very much:

A) Poetry:

„Ich bin ein Teil von jener Kraft, // Die stets das Böse will und stets das Gute schafft. // .... Ich bin der Geist, der stets verneint! // Und das mit Recht; denn alles, was entsteht, // ist wert, daß es zugrunde geht; // Drum besser wärs, daß nichts entstünde. // So ist denn alles, was ihr Sünde, // Zerstörung, kurz das Böse nennt, // Mein eigentliches Element.“ - Johann Wolfgang (von) Goethe, Faust (I), 1790 / 1808, S. 64-67.
Translation:
„I am Part of that Power which would // The Evil ever do, and ever does the Good. // .... I am the Spirit that denies! // And rightly too; for all that doth begin // Should rightly to destruction run; // 'Twere better then that nothing were begun. // Thus everything that you call Sin, // Destruction - in a word, as Evil represent- // That is my own, real element. “ - Johann Wolfgang (von) Goethe, Faust (I), 1790 / 1808, p. 64-67.

B) Visual arts:

Image    Image
Caspar D. Friedrich, Kreidefelsen auf Rügen, 1818, & Der Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer, 1818.

C) Music:


Ludwig v. Beethoven, 5. Sinfonie, 1800-1808.                                          The Doors (Morrison, Manzarek, Krieger, Densmore), The End, 1967.

Do you like the arts, or do you even love the arts? And what about the philosophy? Do you like the philosophy, or do you even love the philosophy? It is certainly no quibble, no logomachy, no hair-splitting, because even here in this thread there are conflicting statements:

Pro LOVE - for example:
mr reasonable wrote:I want to wallow in philosophy like a pig in shit. I love it.

PRO LIKE - for example:
zinnat13 wrote:As far as i am concerned, i would say that i like philosophy but i do not love it.

The distinction between „love“ and „like “ seems to be important, meaningful.
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby Arminius » Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:09 pm

Welcome, Pharaoh!

pharaoh wrote:There are two different factors, here, which should be considered.
1. The power of like or love.
2. The depth of like or love.
On the other hand, you have to either accept that there is something essentially different in love as an emotion, or believe that there is a continuum( for power, as well as depth of that emotion) starting from the left with "hatred", passing through "indifference" on the middle(0), and moving still to "like" and then right up to the end which is "love"; each of which, being gradually expanded within that continuum; that is to say that love for example, is not a point on the continuum, instead a part, gradually starting from no particular point. On that basis, You could possibly find no two love which are of exactly the same power or the same depth (as there are no two actual quantities in the world which are exactly of the same size) . therefore, two people could say that they love something, whereas the amount of their love is not the same.
The depth of like, or love also needs to be carefully defined and examined. To briefly look at it,this involves the intricacy present in each love; somehow like the amount of "knowledge" you have of the inside of what is being loved. A mother normally loves her kid, but that love does, by no means, depend on what she knows of the baby; only that it is her own baby. It is no use to say that "it is only an instinctive reaction", since the nature of love is instinctive altogether. Here is what I call a powerful emotion with a shallow depth. I once heard someone saying "I love onions"; where there is essentially not much in onions to be loved. At the same time you hear people saying they love philosophy (which has surely more than onions in it) just on the account that it sounds pompous (this is not of course, what they would confess, or even be aware of!). There are cases in which, when they are presented with the amount of attention and accuracy needed for examining philosophical thoughts, they no longer show that much interest! This is where they have acquired more knowledge of it.

First of all, a kid is normally loved not only by the mother, but also by the father. So you should say: Parents normally love their kid.
pharaoh wrote:Now your question, I suppose, could be more exactly dissected into two different part, and asked in such a way :
1. How much are you attracted towards philosophy (say, love philosophy)?
2. How deep are you interested in philosophy.
The answer could be any number from -100 to +100 (if those are the limits), may it be the power, or depth. Of course it might lean towards love, or like or hatred. As people are not so exact about their own likes and dislikes(If that would be possible at all), they normally prefer to announce what their feeling leans to. Most of the time, you can find out more about other people's feelings by cross questioning or other interrogating ways!

As i said: I don't love philosophy, I like philosophy. So before I give you a "number from -100 to +100", I would like to determine that scale a little bit, for example in this way:

-100 to -51) "I hate ...";
-50 to -1) "I dislike ...";
+1 to +50) "I like ...";
+51 to +100) "I love ...".

1. How much are you attracted towards philosophy (say, love philosophy)? My answer according to the scale: 40 to 50.
1. How deep are you interested in philosophy? My answer according to the scale: 90 to 100.

But again and again: I don't love philosophy, I like philosophy. ALthough I like philosophy very much, I don't love philosophy.

What about you?
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby pharaoh » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:21 am

Sorry for delay.
Arminius wrote:Welcome, Pharaoh!

Thank you.
First of all, a kid is normally loved not only by the mother, but also by the father. So you should say: Parents normally love their kid.

I wouldn't have thought you'd take it literally. I just mentioned a mother, because she loves her baby even before it is born. Don't you agree with me, that true or false, mothers are symbol of love for their children, unless a male chauvinistic drive rules it out?
pharaoh wrote:
But again and again: I don't love philosophy, I like philosophy. ALthough I like philosophy very much, I don't love philosophy.

What about you?

At noon, +30
In the afternoon, +50
In the evening, +75
Around midnight, +90
Early morning -40
In between, there are lots of other figures.
This is approximately what has been the case during last three months, asked about earlier periods, I should think hard to remember! What I mean is that, feeling that a person has for something, is not all that rigid. It may go through alterations, as the time pass by, and different events happen in life.
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby Arminius » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:40 pm

pharaoh wrote:At noon, +30
In the afternoon, +50
In the evening, +75
Around midnight, +90
Early morning -40
In between, there are lots of other figures.

Does this apply to only one of the two questions, or both?

Here are the two questions again:
1. How much are you attracted towards philosophy (say, love philosophy)?
2. How deep are you interested in philosophy?
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby d63 » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:56 pm

2 the point of self destruction: the neglect of the petty and mundane which sustains us all.
Humble yourself or the world will do it for you -it was either Russell or Whitehead. I can't remember which.

When I was young, I use to think the world was a messed up place so i was pissed off a lot. But now that I'm older, I know it is. So I just don't worry about it. -John Lydon (AKA Johnny Rotten).

Anarchy through Capitalism -on a flyer thrown out during a Kottonmouth Kings concert.

First we read, then we write. -Emerson.

All poets are damned. But they are not blind. They see with the eyes of angels. -William Carlos Williams: in the introduction to Ginsberg's Howl.

You gotta love that moment when the work is done and all that is left to do is drink your beer and sip your jager and enjoy what you've done. It's why I do and love it.

I refuse to be taken seriously.

Once again: take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru. Just someone to jam with.

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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby d63 » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:56 pm

2 the point of self destruction: the neglect of the petty and mundane which sustains us all.
Humble yourself or the world will do it for you -it was either Russell or Whitehead. I can't remember which.

When I was young, I use to think the world was a messed up place so i was pissed off a lot. But now that I'm older, I know it is. So I just don't worry about it. -John Lydon (AKA Johnny Rotten).

Anarchy through Capitalism -on a flyer thrown out during a Kottonmouth Kings concert.

First we read, then we write. -Emerson.

All poets are damned. But they are not blind. They see with the eyes of angels. -William Carlos Williams: in the introduction to Ginsberg's Howl.

You gotta love that moment when the work is done and all that is left to do is drink your beer and sip your jager and enjoy what you've done. It's why I do and love it.

I refuse to be taken seriously.

Once again: take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru. Just someone to jam with.

:me
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby Arminius » Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:07 am

d63 wrote:2 the point of self destruction: the neglect of the petty and mundane which sustains us all.

Would you mind explaining what you mean?
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby Orbie » Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:22 am

Arminius wrote:
obe wrote:
Arminius wrote:Thanks. And when did you fall in love with the philosophy?

I've never remembered a time when i wasn't.

So you have been loving the philosophy since you can think, haven't you?




No. Can't remember all of my earlier thinking, but i can think of most of my remembrances.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:01 pm

Arminius wrote:I once heard of a Swedish woman, that she was in love with the Berlin Wall (and still is - she has a part of the Berlin Wall at home). Her name is Eija-Riitta Wallis Winther Arja Nikki Lee Eklöf (* 20th of March 1954); she calls herself Eija-Riitta Eklöf-Berliner-Mauer. Her website: Http://www.Berlinermauer.se.

Image

Love at first sight?

Which picture do you have in your head when you're in love with the philosophy? Perhaps the following one:

Image

In love?


You can't be in love with the Berlin Wall. It might have given/gives meaning to something in her life that she needs or desires to hold onto.
We use the word 'love" to express a multitude of things which other words might best describe.
I don't think that my cat, Yoda, loves me as much as he is attached to me, needs me for his existence, and is used to have me around - or the other way around.
Your second image to me is more about a man who is wondering "Where did I go wrong with that damn woman or he might just as much be wondering "What do I want for supper?". His look is not perplexing enough really not at all.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby Arminius » Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:43 am

Arcturus Descending wrote:You can't be in love with the Berlin Wall.

I do not anyway. But the Swedish Eija-Riitta Eklöf-Berliner-Mauer does! Do you think that she lies? :icon-redface: :-k :wink: :)

Arcturus Descending wrote:Your second image to me is more about a man who is wondering "Where did I go wrong with that damn woman or he might just as much be wondering "What do I want for supper?". His look is not perplexing enough really not at all.

That image should merely represent "philosophy" or "thinking" and (I admit it) a bit suggest that one can't love philosophy or thinking. :)
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby Arminius » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:36 am

I estimate that merely 20% of this forum members are really interested in philosophy, the other 80% are not really interested in philosophy or even don't
know what philosophy is, they just want to have fun, or even to derail, to troll, to insult, ... and so on. I guess, that if one asks for the emotional relationship to philosophy, the most of those 20% would say "I like phislosophy", while the most of those 80% would say "I love philosophy". That leads to the following questions:

1.) "Who are those 20% and 80%?"
2.) "What do they mean when they use the words 'love' and 'like'?"
3.) "What is philosophy?"
4.) "Is it possible or even necessary that one loves philospohy in order to philosophise?"

That are smart questions, aren't they? Am I similar to Sokrates, just because I like maieutics? :-k

Note:
Dear 80%, I don't want to insult you; you may be right (see question 4.); but if so, then you should prove or give evidence for your thesis that one can really love philosophy.
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby Mithus » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:48 am

Arcturus Descending wrote:You can't be in love with the Berlin Wall.

She actually married the Berlin Wall in 1979 and when it was destroyed in 1989 it was a big tragedy for her. She created the term 'Objectum Sexuality', which means that the object has feelings and a sexual desire. (I wonder how that works :-? ) "We have an equal relationship and are not bothered about conventions, our story is one of two lovers and our souls will be connected eternally"
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby Arminius » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:55 am

Mithus wrote:She actually married the Berlin Wall in 1979 ....

1979? So, the following song is her song or dedicated to her:

       :romance-heart:       Image
The Smashing Pumpkins, "1979", 1996.                                                                       :shock: Oh scary! This picture is not of 1979 but of 1978. :shock:

But I just found out (here) that she got married on June 17, 1979.

For people who are interested in the "couple": http://www.berlinermauer.se/ ....

Mithus wrote:She actually married the Berlin Wall in 1979 and when it was destroyed in 1989 it was a big tragedy for her. She created the term 'Objectum Sexuality', which means that the object has feelings and a sexual desire. (I wonder how that works :-? ) "We have an equal relationship and are not bothered about conventions, our story is one of two lovers and our souls will be connected eternally."

Do you believe that, Mithus?

If she is able to be in love with the Berlin Wall and their "souls" really "will be connected eternally", then it might also be possible to love philosophy. But do you really believe that? :-k :)

B.t.w.: Please remember the many murder victims and other victims at the Berlin Wall!

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Translation:
Memorial // Günter Litfin // first murder victim on 24/08/1961 // Humboldthafen in Berlin-Mitte // and all the victims of the Berlin Wall // from 13.08.1961 until November 1989.
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:59 am

One can most certainly be in love with an inanimate object or specific action, such as philosophizing, knitting, running, singing,... To love means to deeply care for, emotionally and physically the action of strongly supporting against somethings/someones adversaries, both inner and outer adversaries, "deeply desiring it to be strong/harmonious/happy". And is usually accompanied with a desire to unite with or be "one with it/he/her" (attachment to, a part of). Maybe they should have just cemented her into the wall. :-k

And as far a sexual relation, well ... they are making cyborg sex surrogates, yaknow. :-?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby Arminius » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:39 pm

James S Saint wrote:Maybe they should have just cemented her into the wall.

Or the wall into her? :-k
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby Wizard » Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:52 pm

More than everybody here, added together.
phyllo wrote:Before the internet, there were these things called books. There were special buildings full of them.

James S Saint wrote:It is the mostly blind builders struggling against the entirely blind destroyers in an effort to find the light.
"The light is here"
"No it isn't"
"The light is there"
"I don't see it"
"The light exists"
"No it doesn't"

... on and on ...
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby Arminius » Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:13 pm

interterrestrial wrote:More than everybody here, added together.

Would you mind "explaining" that, if possible?
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby Wizard » Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:07 pm

Yes

There is a hole at the core of existence, a void, which represents the darkness of the whole universe, like a black hole. This void is obvious and palpable. And if you ever had the grave, unfortunate opportunity to meet me, then you would soon feel dizzy, nauseous, and faint with fear. Because this darkness sometimes slips out of me and into others, corrupting and consuming them, sucking them into a nightmare of infintie doubt. This deepest doubt represents the greatest possible, imaginable unknowable. And I find my home in this great unknowable universe, in the darkest locations where nobody would ever think to search.

This void represents my complete, utter, absolute lack of knowledge. And so I seek knowledge, true and pure. True and pure knowledge, is wisdom. So I know that I know nothing at all, and this makes me the wisest man. People claim to know things, but, I see through all their errors, false beliefs, and contradictions. For example, arcturus descending claims that she "knows that she is alive". It's observed readily by my extremely acute hypersensitivity. I see the holes in people that they don't care for. People speak lies and errors, not even caring if it's true or not.

Some call this, philosophy, a curse. Others call it a blessing. I suppose that just depends on how you use doubt, and attempt to search for knowledge and wisdom. Yet the more I search for knowledge and wisdom in others, in what you humans call your "humanity", the more empty I seem to become. It chips away at what little I have left, to go searching in places that yield no end result, no rewards. It's like asking a dog, a squirrel, a pig, their opinions on life. As if they could speak. As if they represented any form of "higher" intelligence or animal superiority, upon the hierarchy of life.

Therefore I must conclude there is a hierarchy, and wisdom is at the top of life. Do I have knowledge? No, and the more I seek it in others, the less I have. So sometimes I lose faith, and give up the search, for fear of future disappoints that will wear me closer to absolute nothingness. And I will have no soul left, and become so empty that I may see all the light of the universe at once.

Because it is within the deepest darkness that all light becomes readily apparent, and all knowledge reveals itself to you.
phyllo wrote:Before the internet, there were these things called books. There were special buildings full of them.

James S Saint wrote:It is the mostly blind builders struggling against the entirely blind destroyers in an effort to find the light.
"The light is here"
"No it isn't"
"The light is there"
"I don't see it"
"The light exists"
"No it doesn't"

... on and on ...
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby fuse » Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:47 pm

interterrestrial wrote:This void represents my complete, utter, absolute lack of knowledge. And so I seek knowledge, true and pure. True and pure knowledge, is wisdom. So I know that I know nothing at all, and this makes me the wisest man. People claim to know things, but, I see through all their errors, false beliefs, and contradictions. For example, arcturus descending claims that she "knows that she is alive". It's observed readily by my extremely acute hypersensitivity. I see the holes in people that they don't care for. People speak lies and errors, not even caring if it's true or not.

Maybe you are missing the truths of personal and social human experience. Maybe not all truth is literal. Maybe truth isn't always the highest good. Maybe there is truth that transcends the factual.
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby Wizard » Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:38 pm

Of course I'm aware there are other values than truth in life, either complimentary or contrary to truth.
phyllo wrote:Before the internet, there were these things called books. There were special buildings full of them.

James S Saint wrote:It is the mostly blind builders struggling against the entirely blind destroyers in an effort to find the light.
"The light is here"
"No it isn't"
"The light is there"
"I don't see it"
"The light exists"
"No it doesn't"

... on and on ...
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby Arminius » Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:18 pm

The word "philosophy" means "love to wisdom". So "I love philosophy" means "I love love to wisdom". To love a kind of love (in this case: the love to wisdom) is exaggerated, isn't it? Do you love exaggeration or hyperbolism?

It is possible to love the love, for example the love to wisdom. But my main question is not whether it is possible, but wether it is good, whether it is really worth living for. Perhaps it would be better or would be worth living for to hate philosophy, to fight philosophy, to be the antagonist of philosophy in order to overcome philosophy by philosophising. To work on at the philosophy in order to overcome it would be good, would be worth living for, wouldn't it? But I think, not "love" and "hate", but "like" and "dislike" are the most adequate words for describing the relationship between humans and philosophy.

Arminius wrote:As i said: I don't love philosophy, I like philosophy. So before I give you a "number from -100 to +100", I would like to determine that scale a little bit, for example in this way:

-100 to -51) "I hate ...";
-50 to -1) "I dislike ...";
+1 to +50) "I like ...";
+51 to +100) "I love ...".

1. How much are you attracted towards philosophy (say, love philosophy)? My answer according to the scale: 40 to 50.
1. How deep are you interested in philosophy? My answer according to the scale: 90 to 100.

But again and again: I don't love philosophy, I like philosophy. ALthough I like philosophy very much, I don't love philosophy.

What about you?

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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby Arminius » Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:30 pm

interterrestrial wrote:For example, arcturus descending claims that she "knows that she is alive".

Arcturus Descending, are you alive? And if you think that you are: do you also know that you are alive? I can't believe it! :)

Maybe you are not alive! Maybe we all are not alive! Maybe only philosophy is alive! Maybe only thinking is alive! :-k
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby Arminius » Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:19 am

If I had to distribute the current 31 ILP smilies on the 80% philosophy "lovers"/"haters" and the 20% philosophy "likers"/"dislikers", I would do as follows:

- Philosophy "lovers"/"haters" (80%): :D :) :( :o :-? :x :P :cry: :evil: :evilfun: =D> #-o [-o< 8-[ :-" O:) =; :-& :-$ :arrow: :mrgreen: :| :shock:
- Philosophy "likers"/"dislikers" (20%): 8) :wink: :-k :!: :idea: :?:
- Both: :lol:

According to this distribution the philosophy "lovers"/"haters" (80%) are much more emotional than the philosophy "likers"/"dislikers" (20%).

Except that this distribution is supposed to represent also an exhilaration, one can take it somehow seriously and say that it is somehow true.

:lol:
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:58 pm

Arminius wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:You can't be in love with the Berlin Wall.

I do not anyway. But the Swedish Eija-Riitta Eklöf-Berliner-Mauer does! Do you think that she lies? :icon-redface: :-k :wink: :)

No, I don't think that she necessarily lies. We just do not express what we really mean and feel according to what is going on. But I suppose that one can become enamored with anything - especially something which has become alive for us with our hearts spirits pain and eventually freedom.

Arcturus Descending wrote:Your second image to me is more about a man who is wondering "Where did I go wrong with that damn woman or he might just as much be wondering "What do I want for supper?". His look is not perplexing enough really not at all.

That image should merely represent "philosophy" or "thinking" and (I admit it) a bit suggest that one can't love philosophy or thinking. :)


Is that suppose to be Rodin's (?) Thinker? That doesn't seem compelling enough.
One can grow and thrive on what philosophy brings to them. I suppose we can use the word "enamored". For me, it's seeking the truth, no matter where I find it or how it makes me feel. I think I actually enjoy and am turned on more by science than philosophy.
OH GREAT BLASPHEMER - GET AWAY FROM HERE. LOL
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Arcturus Descending
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Re: Do you really love philosophy?

Postby Arminius » Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:50 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:Is that suppose to be Rodin's (?) Thinker?

No - as I already told you.
Arcturus Descending wrote:That doesn't seem compelling enough.

This thread is not about art, but about philosophy; and this thread is also not about aesthetics, but about one's emotional relationship to philosophy.

Arcturus Descending wrote:One can grow and thrive on what philosophy brings to them. I suppose we can use the word "enamored". For me, it's seeking the truth, no matter where I find it or how it makes me feel. I think I actually enjoy and am turned on more by science than philosophy.

I can't believe what you are saying. :)

Arminius wrote:
interterrestrial wrote:For example, arcturus descending claims that she "knows that she is alive".

Arcturus Descending, are you alive? And if you think that you are: do you also know that you are alive? I can't believe it! :)

Maybe you are not alive! Maybe we all are not alive! Maybe only philosophy is alive! Maybe only thinking is alive! :-k

Maybe we can never overcome the subject/object dualism.
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