ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, WTP)

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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Jakob » Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:54 pm

Sauwelios wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:All cleverness and Ernst aside, perhaps you may understand why truth is conditional to valuing, and why the activity valuing is not conditional to the term "truth".

Truth is not conditional to valuing. If there is valuing, then that is the truth, so valuing and truth are coeval; neither precedes the other.

"that is the truth" is a valuation.

That this is "true" is a valuation.

It might considered false. Which is also a valuation. Which ay be considered true, or false, in turn.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Jakob » Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:56 pm

aletheia wrote:We have developed a new perspective here, offered something significantly new.

I did that. What did you have to do with it?

No offense. You did plenty of other things.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Sleyor Wellhuxwell » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:02 pm

Jakob wrote:
Kathrina wrote:I would like to throw a thesis into this virtual space:

Is it possible that RM:AO and VO are in the same relation to each other like rationality and irrationality or like (Kant/)Hegel and Schopenhauer/Nietzsche? I don't mean a strict opposition, but something like a rivalry in the attempt to find out the most important thing in cognition, which is tried on the one hand by means of rationality/reason/logic and which is tried on the other hand by not ignoring rationality/reason/logic, but considering it less important.

VO is a logic, a form of reason, but it doesn't fit all the way into a mathematical system. Which isn't strange, as mathematics is a tiny sliver of the edifice of rational thought and even a tinier sliver of truth, empirical and abstract - and by no means the deepest part of any of these. Mathematics is a surface phenomenon. It is the way that truth comes to the surface by permutation in certain hard-hewn terms. It is hard, but it isn't deep. It doesn't touch on reality directly. I see AO as a surface-emulator, a vector game on one facet of a complex object.

By the fact that mathematics has discovered the set of the irrational numbers, the rationality, so typical for mathematics, has not disappeared. The irrational numbers function in (function) equations, and that's all they are supposed to do. The rationality does not suffer from it, but enriches itself thereby even.

To be clear, I consider all thought that is not grounded in VO to be irrational.
That is why it exists. Because I found all human thought to be founded on blind assumptions.
VO is reasoning without any assumptions whatsoever.

So to your tabbed question:
An ontology doesn't prescribe. It simply shows what can and what can not exist.

You would have to tell me what you want and for whom as accurately as you can, then VO can show you what is possible and how.
Jakob wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:
Jakob wrote:I consider AO to be irrational because of several premises it requires.
One is that of infinitesimals; QM refutes this. There is no smooth scale of scale, there are steps, integers.

That appears to be an assumption - a false one.

How do you know that the universe is constructed in stepping stone fashion?

Well, that is Quantum Mechanics. Why they called it "quantum" mechanics.
It is the main finding of these guys. Read some Bohr.

Jakob wrote:Another premise is the homogeneity of affectance, which is required for it to be uniformly calculable in terms of itself. This is absolutely not a given. It must be assumed.

That is not in AO. AO states the homogeneity is impossible.

I did not say AO holds that the world is homogenous. I indicate that affectance, as a criterion, is homogenous.

Now "self-valuing" is homogenous as a logical criterion, but not as a mathematical one. Therefore the homogeneity it isn't a presupposed quality, but merely an assertion of method on the part of the thinker.

From all what you have said does not follow anything like value ontology or self-value ontology, well, also not any other theory or philosophy, except the one which agrees with the fact of the history of science that since the time when Planck founded the quantum theory (1900), physics in the main has become quantum physics, the empirical findings because of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle just fuzzy, imprecise, and also theoretically resp. mathematically no more exactly, but only with statistics and probability calculation can be proved, that therefore from the point of view of physics the world does not look any more like before 1900 (Planck), but can look like "as it wants", and we can only state that the weltanschauung has changed dramatically since then.mathematically no more exactly, but only with statistics and probability calculation can be proved, that therefore from the point of view of physics the world no more looks like before 1900 (Planck), but can look like "as it wants", and we can only state that the world view has changed dramatically since then. We do not know what is going on in a "black hole" - that means: we also do not know whether the "black hole" does "what it wants".

Everything can be always also completely different - this is the cognition which physics since 1900 (Planck) has helped more and more to the breakthrough. If everything can always also be completely different, then everything can also be exactly the other way round, then everything can also be like Orwell's "Newspeak" dictates. But it does not have to be that way.

The logotype for "Ingsoc" from the film "Nineteen Eighty-Four" ("1984"):
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Jakob » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:21 pm

From the fact that we can't be certain about the position and momentum of a quantum at the same time, it doesn't follow that reality could be any other way than it is.

It just means we aren't absolute and universal at the same time.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby iambiguous » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:24 pm

Jakob wrote:"Nah, I reads on wikipedia that its like, uhh I mean, I read like, uhh, I mean I can't really read but uhhh like, you're like, so wrong dude, uhh uhuhuhh uhhhhh let me uhhuhh make a joke now huhuuhuh"


And they scurry off to some thread made by people with 2 digit IQs to feel good about themselves.


We'll need a context of course.

That way we can explore IQs in regard to, say, off the top of my head, value-ontology and moral nihilism. :-k
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Jakob » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:25 pm

You are your own moral compass dude.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Jakob » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:26 pm

Im sorry for having been so harsh with you people the past days. You are all under a lot of stress.

I wish you the best.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby iambiguous » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:46 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Jakob wrote:"Nah, I reads on wikipedia that its like, uhh I mean, I read like, uhh, I mean I can't really read but uhhh like, you're like, so wrong dude, uhh uhuhuhh uhhhhh let me uhhuhh make a joke now huhuuhuh"


And they scurry off to some thread made by people with 2 digit IQs to feel good about themselves.


We'll need a context of course.

That way we can explore IQs in regard to, say, off the top of my head, value-ontology and moral nihilism. :-k


Jakob wrote:You are your own moral compass dude.


Assuming this is addressed to me, I can only challenge him to note a context in which to explore value-ontology and moral nihilism.

My own "moral compass" is explored existentially -- substantively -- on threads like this one: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382

And his moral compass?

I would be very curious here just to explore a particular set of circumstances with him insofar as he intertwines Nietzsche and astrology.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Jakob » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:54 pm

"He" I presume is the guy you're talking to.

"He" is sorry he used the word "moral compass" in the first place as he is an immoralist.

That doesn't mean a nihilist, but someone who believes that only the heart is capable of an justified in setting values. That means, I dont believe in morals, but rather in love.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:56 pm

Jakob wrote:From the fact that we can't be certain about the position and momentum of a quantum at the same time, it doesn't follow that reality could be any other way than it is.

It just means we aren't absolute and universal at the same time.


This is genius.

And it is also a good example of why universalism also doesn't work as an educational model.

Popular science is a travesty. Only the people who gave a shit about it to begin with will have any capacity to understand it, forcing it onto the consciousness of people that otherwise would not have been looking at it can only lead to silly misapprehensions.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:57 pm

This applies not only to physics, but the entire "curriculum."

The hell is wrong with letting people make profit of what brings them joy?
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Jakob » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:01 pm

Thank you.
I would even go so far as to say that popular science is a contradiction in terms....
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Jakob » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:05 pm

Not to mention popular philosophy.

I must admit to having been a clown in so far as Ive been angered that people have trouble understanding VO. Im not angry at a sick plant in the dark for not being able to walk into the sun.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby iambiguous » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:17 pm

Jakob wrote:"He" I presume is the guy you're talking to.

"He" is sorry he used the word "moral compass" in the first place as he is an immoralist.

That doesn't mean a nihilist, but someone who believes that only the heart is capable of an justified in setting values. That means, I dont believe in morals, but rather in love.


See how he completely avoids taking the discussion to a particular context. See how he keeps it all up in the stratosphere of esoteric bunk such that anyone can read anything at all into his "point".

Note to Pedro: What do you read into it?

And all I can do is either mock him for posting unintelligible gibberish of this sort or to challenge him to explain to us how and why it isn't gibberish at all.

Given a situation we might all be familiar with.

Unless, of course, we are just ever and always "toying" with each other. 8)
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Jakob » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:21 pm

Im actually saying that the only real context you could ever know is yourself. That's that earth you mean to bring questions down to.

I mean he. He's saying that.

He could say that he doesnt know why that is so frustrating, but he would be lying.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Jakob » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:25 pm

I teach a very hard discipline. The hardest hitherto known to mankind, and I think the hardest it will ever know.

As such it is also the only one guaranteed to not spoil any love that might exist between all the resentment. My logic is liable to destroy everything but love.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby iambiguous » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:51 pm

Jakob wrote:Im actually saying that the only real context you could ever know is yourself. That's that earth you mean to bring questions down to.

I mean he. He's saying that.

He could say that he doesnt know why that is so frustrating, but he would be lying.


...and then [going to the thesaurus], just when you figure he could not possibly post something even more inane, abstruse, recondite, arcane, cryptic, unfathomable, enigmatic, inscrutable, opaque, obtuse, obscure, recherché and insubstantial than his "point" above, he tops himself.

Indeed, "points" like his are precisely what those who insist we live in an entirely determined universe will note in coming to his rescue: it was "beyond his control". :lol:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Jakob » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:01 pm

Did you have a point, other than that youre upset?
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby iambiguous » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:20 pm

Jakob wrote:Did you have a point, other than that youre upset?


Well, my point is that you are just another chickenshit objectivist here who refuses to take the components of his own moral philosophy down out of the esoteric clouds. To defend them as I defend the components of moral nihilism given any particular context that we can agree on.

Indeed, I would advise others here to follow the "exchanges" you have with those like Pedro to grasp just how far removed value-ontology is from the day to day interactions of flesh and blood human beings confronting down through the ages any number of conflicting goods. Rooted in dasein rooted in contingency, chance and change, rooted historically, culturally and circumstantially in any number of actual human communities.

Your own for example.

Unless, of course, Fixed Jacob is just a tongue in cheek character that you play here. In fact, that would make more sense to me than in believing that you actually do believe that what you post here makes...sense?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:42 pm

We'll take that as a "no."
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby iambiguous » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:47 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:We'll take that as a "no."


Right, like that actually says more about me than it does about you.

Just out of curiosity, though, how might you configure what you think Fixed Jacob means by value-ontology into a discussion of what he might think you mean by, say, Communism?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:47 pm

Though we are all very impressed by the philosophy of :

Nobody knows anything, nobody can know anything, nothing is resolvable, so communism.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby iambiguous » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:55 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Though we are all very impressed by the philosophy of :

Nobody knows anything, nobody can know anything, nothing is resolvable, so communism.


Yo, Fixed!

I challenge you to top this inane, abstruse, recondite, arcane, cryptic, unfathomable, enigmatic, inscrutable, opaque, obtuse, obscure, recherché and insubstantial point of his.

Unless, of course, he actually is willing to explore with me what anybody can know -- epistemologically? -- in order to resolve whether Communism is or is not a rational perspective on human interactions.

Objectively as it were.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:55 pm

Your philosophy is curiously similar to promethan's:

Nothing can be intellectually ascertained, so we must obey our feelings.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:56 pm

Warm fuzzy feelings.
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