ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, WTP)

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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:41 am

James S Saint wrote:Okay.
"Meaningful to the right part of your mind".
Joy is formed of the inner perception of progress (meaningfulness), even if it is a false perception.

Yes. The feeling of (will to) power -- the feeling of power is the will to more power.

So there are two questions:
How does on increase all these attributes, and (if the answer to that doesn't already answer the following) in what way can one make this activity into something which is directly perceived as having the function that it has.
The strong act as they may, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby James S Saint » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:03 am

Fixed Cross wrote:
James S Saint wrote:Okay.
"Meaningful to the right part of your mind".
Joy is formed of the inner perception of progress (meaningfulness), even if it is a false perception.

Yes. The feeling of (will to) power -- the feeling of power is the will to more power.

There is the perception of hope - Incentive.
There is the perception of progress toward that hope - Joy.
And there is the perception of progress toward a never ending, unconfined hope to accomplish anything - Power.

Fixed Cross wrote:So there are two questions:
How does on increase all these attributes, and (if the answer to that doesn't already answer the following) in what way can one make this activity into something which is directly perceived as having the function that it has.

YES!
That really is the MOST relevant question that you will ever ask for the rest of your life.
And of course, one that I have not ignored.

The ability to cause ones inner self (feelings) to agree with one's cognitive decisions is called "Discipline" or "being a disciple". How does one become a disciple to the true form and substance of his own life?

Governments ask the same question, "How can we get our own people behind our agenda?"
Or in the military, the General asks, "How can I get my troops to obey my plans and commands?"

And the answer can be stated simply, but doing it is another matter.
One must attend to "Impedance matching" - "grasping only that which is within reach".

Buddhist monks practice that for their entire lives. And they accomplish Tae Chi, or "Self-Harmony".
But the more relevant concern is how to do it right such that everyone isn't merely contemplating their navel for the rest of their lives.

The typical Westerner does the opposite, getting completely involved in tempting, uncoordinated distractions from what his life actually is, the combination of those three efforts.

As each of those efforts increase, they each enhance the ability to increase the others more greatly. They are a self-sustaining, self-maintaining, self-valuing group of efforts, called a living being, a "living particle".


How any one person accomplishes this in the "right way" (the most beneficial to that person) depends upon the condition in which they begin. The Western world is at war with itself using mental, medical, and military means to ensure each governor gains his own agenda by ensuring that none "beneath him" gain's theirs. That puts everyone in a pickle.

I have been trying to emphasis the importance of you attending to those specific efforts for what, 3 years or so? Online is a very, very slow means to communicate to another's feelings. What takes 6 months online, I can do (and have done) in merely 3 days in person. Most such efforts are not worth the effort (which is why so very many people merely leave the internet for the kids).

But it all begins, as has been told for thousands of years, by divorcing one's self from the "world" and focusing on a new path. But that alone requires discipline that is usually not discipline as much as depression and/or disgust or anger (a cheating way to get the emotions to do what they needed to do. How do you get your nation to attack Iraq? - Anger them). One must stop getting distracted by enticing signs of hopes and threats that keep them from attending to their real need. Since governors won't stop using them, one must stop being exposed to them such as to prevent the belief in the hopes and threats offered by them. One must turn away from those tempting distractions from anything other than those 3 concerns of life.

Or as Moses put it, "Do not consume the meat of a bifurcated-hoofed animal."


One means to head in that direction is to resolve the Stopped Clock Paradox.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:40 pm

I'm glad we got to this point.
You must realize that I have been making this effort the the entirety of my life - I have never trusted a single authority until what it said made sense to me.
I also practice Tai Chi, Shaolin Kung Fu, Yoga, Chi Kung and all those things. I meant to include all those things in the meta-concept "dance" but I can see why that wasn't clear.

Value Ontology is the law of not blindly obeying, of not taking anything for granted. But indeed, the challenge is in finding out what does truly sustain ones most enduring versatile self-valuing/self-harmony.

Apparently, we're quite in line concerning these means. I am still in an experimental phase of my life. But truth is closing in, as the world is properly turned to waste, there is little time left for experimentation.

On the other hand, it may be that all is already lost, and the time left is really inconsequential.
I hears some depressing news yesterday, that the seas will be dead within 40 years, even independently of Fukushima. No way to verify it, of course.
The strong act as they may, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:43 pm

Concerning the clock paradox, I got a bit lost there fore a moment last week, perhaps you can put the discussion back on track and indicate the last point where what I said made sense in terms of the solution you have in mind.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Orbie » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:11 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:I'm glad we got to this point.
You must realize that I have been making this effort the entirety of my life - I have never trusted a single authority until what it said made sense to me.
I also practice Tai Chi, Shaolin Kung Fu, Yoga, Chi Kung and all those things. I meant to include all those things in the meta-concept "dance" but I can see why that wasn't clear.

Value Ontology is the law of not blindly obeying, of not taking anything for granted. But indeed, the challenge is in finding out what does truly sustain ones most enduring versatile self-valuing/self-harmony.

Apparently, we're quite in line concerning these means. I am still in an experimental phase of my life. But truth is closing in, as the world is properly turned to waste, there is little time left for experimentation.

On the other hand, it may be that all is already lost, and the time left is really inconsequential.
I hears some depressing news yesterday, that the seas will be dead within 40 years, even independently of Fukushima. No way to verify it, of course.




Fixed Cross: I disagree with these points. Nothing is ever lost. We understand the genius of the nature god. It protects itself even if at the cost of modifying it"w own self conception through it's creation, namely us human beings. The big one, the big war is coming, this here is the trepidation, before the storm. Nature is intrinsically intelligent, and the interpretation of her motives, desires, are goal oriented, to assure life toward the future.

The future is within this intrinsic realisation of many worlds to come,and their intrinsic existence has a backward effect of doing everything necessary to assure that their goal is assuredly is re-founded, re grounded.

This grounding assures tacitly that no amount of destruction we can impinge on our planet can have a decisively absolute realisation, since reality is always one step ahead and it has plans to stop whatever totally negative we have in mind in terms of our mutually faithless, absolutely forlorn seeking of the true nature and intent of the nature god. It simply will not be allowed. The limits reached will create illusions of the possibility of more and more progress,yet the acquisition of knowledge will always seemingly delimit, by the decreasing of overall scope by the increasing lack of coherence due to extreme specialisation.

For instance illusions are created toward the peaceful uses of atomic energy, yet everyone playing a game of wishing to believe that there never will be a use other than.

It is inconceivable that primitive societies will not want to play the ultimate game, that is the reason I have never been excited about game theory in any mathematical or rhetorical sense. Games of probability are heavily invested with a prejudice of the virtual reality created, and it is what it is, spells a resignation of sorts toward a shift into a blind material populism, which fore bodes nothing but a troubling sense of an absolute collapse, a collapse of an entropic thinning out of a being, which should be rehabilitated much more comprehensively than let's say what green peace can do.

Therefore, things have to get really very bad, until the time comes when children will grow up and realize that play time is over.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:43 pm

In general I share these sentiments and conceptions - to think like this is my tendency as well. But considering that it may be true that the oceans will in 40 years be unable to support any form of life, I begin to think in terms of a whole different type of nature and evolution. Consider the possible transformation of the organic into the semi-organic. It is not unthinkable that a segment of humanity will adapt to its self-created environment and acquire all sorts of technological powers and immunities. Such things have been in the works and they're certainly not being shared with the public, for ultra obvious reasons. What's worse, I am not even certain that I can be against such developments. In the great scheme of things, where dominant species have a history of getting extinct by cataclysms, and where planets are swallowed by their suns, it would be pretty awesome if a part of humanity evolved to some kind of thousand-year-living supermen. Especially if normal humans can't experience things like sea-life or general biodiversity in anymore.

I'm just on a speculative tangent here based on reports I heard yesterday. I'm not saying the ecosystem is certainly doomed, I am not a biological expert at all. My true hope and trust is in the capacity of humans to restore the ecosystem once the ridiculous oil interests are played out. I am fairly confident we already have the technology to counteract nuclear radiation, for example, and that this technology is being hidden and its creators murdered. That won't go on forever. Right now the technocratic power of humanity is employed mainly to keep overtly available technology at a minimum level of usefulness.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby James S Saint » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:17 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Right now the technocratic power of humanity is employed mainly to keep overtly available technology at a minimum level of usefulness.

Ayup.

And that is why one must abandon the current mindset, ontologies, and "theories" and quickly get ahead of the game.
.. PM.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby MechanicalMonster » Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:44 pm

Yes. This also works in tandem with what you said, James, about "forces" being mystifications of old thinking, or however you phrased it.

On a side note, life will keep evolving and existing, even as we cause mass extinctions. Humans can constrict the sphere of life, but cannot eliminate it.

Also, the news (and science too to a certain extent) is in the business of depressing you.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:31 am

MechanicalMonster wrote:Yes. This also works in tandem with what you said, James, about "forces" being mystifications of old thinking, or however you phrased it.

On a side note, life will keep evolving and existing, even as we cause mass extinctions. Humans can constrict the sphere of life, but cannot eliminate it.

Also, the news (and science too to a certain extent) is in the business of depressing you.

Depressing and distracting - preventing as much as possible that people value the world in their own terms. Urging them, causing urges in them to find other "worlds" in which to see themselves reflected.

From the first time I watched tv I remember marveling at the bizarre and cosmic contrast of the repeating sequence commercials - news - commercials.

Nothing could be more effective in dislodging mans sense of reality.
The strong act as they may, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:13 am

Orbie wrote:It is inconceivable that primitive societies will not want to play the ultimate game,

Image

that is the reason I have never been excited about game theory in any mathematical or rhetorical sense. Games of probability are heavily invested with a prejudice of the virtual reality created, and it is what it is, spells a resignation of sorts toward a shift into a blind material populism, which fore bodes nothing but a troubling sense of an absolute collapse, a collapse of an entropic thinning out of a being, which should be rehabilitated much more comprehensively than let's say what green peace can do.

It needs to be remedied all the way on the level of superpower legislation. Not International, law, but actual hard treaties between powers that fear each other.
The strong act as they may, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Jakob » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:51 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:[size=85][list](March-June 1888)

( A )

I observe with astonishment that science has today resigned itself to the apparent world; a real world--whatever it may be like--we certainly have no organ for knowing it.

At this point we may ask: by means of what organ of knowledge can we posit even this antithesis?--

That a world accessible to our organs is also understood to be dependent upon these organs, that we understand a world as being subjectively conditioned, is not to say that an objective world is at all possible. Who compels us to think that subjectivity is real, essential?

The "in-itself" is even an absurd conception; a "constitutioning-itself" is nonsense; we possess the concept "being," "thing," only as a relational concept--

Which Nietzsche coldly discerns at first as will-to-power.
which I then dissected as a matter of valuing.

All relating depends on valuing -
selective and productive relating - this is the only thing which can sustain any Existence.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby surreptitious75 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:32 pm

Self valuing is relative both to the one doing the valuing and the environment in which said valuing is taking place
But because of its subjective nature [ that cannot be overcome ] it cannot be regarded as an objective philosophy

A mind may for example self value with regard to its immediate survival but could end up losing it because its judgement was faulty
So while self valuing can simply be classed as the subconscious desire to exist and nothing else that alone will not guarantee success

I see a connection between Nietzsche and Crowley here as the latters own philosophy was do what though wants according to the law
This can be regarded as a type of self valuing as well - even though one could argue that ANY desire to live is self valuing by definition

However one could also say that the opposite is true - that is that the rational desire to end ones own life is also a form of self valuing - a very liberating one
Because by doing it one is performing an act that will guarantee no more suffering ever again - one of the truly most powerful things that anyone can ever do
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Jakob » Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:50 am

surreptitious75 wrote:Self valuing is relative both to the one doing the valuing and the environment in which said valuing is taking place
But because of its subjective nature [ that cannot be overcome ] it cannot be regarded as an objective philosophy

A mind may for example self value with regard to its immediate survival but could end up losing it because its judgement was faulty
So while self valuing can simply be classed as the subconscious desire to exist and nothing else that alone will not guarantee success

I see a connection between Nietzsche and Crowley here as the latters own philosophy was do what though wants according to the law
This can be regarded as a type of self valuing as well - even though one could argue that ANY desire to live is self valuing by definition

However one could also say that the opposite is true - that is that the rational desire to end ones own life is also a form of self valuing - a very liberating one
Because by doing it one is performing an act that will guarantee no more suffering ever again - one of the truly most powerful things that anyone can ever do

Yes. So you see that it is an objective ontology. Not an objective ethics, not an ethics at all. It describes what is, must always be.
There are I think two meanings to the word philosophy; a form of understanding the world ("is"), and a way of life ("ought"). These are very different things - though because objective ontology is never wrong, any "ought" can be tested for its viability by pushing it through the algorithm and seeing if it still exists on the other end.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby obsrvr524 » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:23 am

Jakob wrote:
surreptitious75 wrote:Self valuing is relative both to the one doing the valuing and the environment in which said valuing is taking place
But because of its subjective nature [ that cannot be overcome ] it cannot be regarded as an objective philosophy

A mind may for example self value with regard to its immediate survival but could end up losing it because its judgement was faulty
So while self valuing can simply be classed as the subconscious desire to exist and nothing else that alone will not guarantee success

I see a connection between Nietzsche and Crowley here as the latters own philosophy was do what though wants according to the law
This can be regarded as a type of self valuing as well - even though one could argue that ANY desire to live is self valuing by definition

However one could also say that the opposite is true - that is that the rational desire to end ones own life is also a form of self valuing - a very liberating one
Because by doing it one is performing an act that will guarantee no more suffering ever again - one of the truly most powerful things that anyone can ever do

Yes. So you see that it is an objective ontology. Not an objective ethics, not an ethics at all. It describes what is, must always be.
There are I think two meanings to the word philosophy; a form of understanding the world ("is"), and a way of life ("ought"). These are very different things - though because objective ontology is never wrong, any "ought" can be tested for its viability by pushing it through the algorithm and seeing if it still exists on the other end.

I was about to ask (finally) - "So what is this Value Ontology all about?" - but I think you just answered that (realize even the word "ontology" is relatively new to me). It seems you should have named it "Self-valuing Ontology" - but either way - I get it (I think). But that raises question -

surreptitious75 wrote:the rational desire to end ones own life is also a form of self valuing - a very liberating one
Because by doing it one is performing an act that will guarantee no more suffering ever again - one of the truly most powerful things that anyone can ever do

That is a reflection of a person's suffering being the value involved rather than their existence. So does that qualify as an ontology (being totally about what exists)? - Maybe a "suffrage ontology" or something.

And then - what kind of ethics is implied by that Value Ontology (although recognizing that it isn't directly about ethics)? - With VO in mind - how should people rationally behave toward each other?
Last edited by obsrvr524 on Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Dan~ » Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:52 pm

I've come to the realization that most of reality has a form of peace to it.
It's one of its main values. Being / Existing is another common value.
Being is similar to being alive, but life has a kind of work to it.
And higher forms of life have a sort of agitation,
but they still have their slightly elevated being.

Hopefully this makes sense.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Jakob » Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:24 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
Jakob wrote:
surreptitious75 wrote:Self valuing is relative both to the one doing the valuing and the environment in which said valuing is taking place
But because of its subjective nature [ that cannot be overcome ] it cannot be regarded as an objective philosophy

A mind may for example self value with regard to its immediate survival but could end up losing it because its judgement was faulty
So while self valuing can simply be classed as the subconscious desire to exist and nothing else that alone will not guarantee success

I see a connection between Nietzsche and Crowley here as the latters own philosophy was do what though wants according to the law
This can be regarded as a type of self valuing as well - even though one could argue that ANY desire to live is self valuing by definition

However one could also say that the opposite is true - that is that the rational desire to end ones own life is also a form of self valuing - a very liberating one
Because by doing it one is performing an act that will guarantee no more suffering ever again - one of the truly most powerful things that anyone can ever do

Yes. So you see that it is an objective ontology. Not an objective ethics, not an ethics at all. It describes what is, must always be.
There are I think two meanings to the word philosophy; a form of understanding the world ("is"), and a way of life ("ought"). These are very different things - though because objective ontology is never wrong, any "ought" can be tested for its viability by pushing it through the algorithm and seeing if it still exists on the other end.

I was about to ask (finally) - "So what is this Value Ontology all about?" - but I think you just answered that (realize even the word "ontology" is relatively new to me). It seems you should have named it "Self-valuing Ontology" - but either way - I get it (I think). But that raises question -

the rational desire to end ones own life is also a form of self valuing - a very liberating one
Because by doing it one is performing an act that will guarantee no more suffering ever again - one of the truly most powerful things that anyone can ever do

That is a reflection of a person's suffering being the value involved rather than their existence. So does that qualify as an ontology (being totally about what exists)? - Maybe a "suffrage ontology" or something.

And then - what kind of ethics is implied by that Value Ontology (although recognizing that it isn't directly about ethics)? - With VO in mind - how should people rationally behave toward each other?

Okay, excellent question.
I had some trouble formulating the response, as it is deep intuitive. I see it, but I don't have the words for it. Self-valuing ontology is more accurate but deep down I don't care about naming this logic. I kind of liked to have it for myself, with only those people understanding who have some resonance with me. Thats basically me obeying the principle, letting myself be swallowed by it. It has changed me completely. And Ive learned from that, how hard it is to exist in such pure terms, only spontaneously emerging from the truth about myself, which I don't even know. Its a way of learning what I am without protocol. Just the pure consequence of my hearts and minds integrity. They need to work together, along with all the organs, I can't be repressing things. So powers vie for dominance in me through my pure responses to the responses my actions get from the outside. Basically I allowed my values to change freely to become suited to my self-valuing.

In case of the suicidal one, the self-valuing has found that in the world there are no values which correspond truly to it, and there is no way, no power, to transform the prevailing values into suitable ones. Then, the valuing is thrust upon itself, when it sees that the real value giver, the standard of all the values one can experience, the ultimate value itself is the self-valuing. To die voluntarily in rejection of the poverty of the world, to choose to remain rich with oneself, fulfilled in at least that basic, ontic sense, is an act of pure self-valuing, much more so than being hooked up to a phone all the time. A phone predicates much of the interactions to its own self-valuing. The being is largely a function of the smartphone, which has a greater structural integrity than the mindset of a lot of our species. But that is a dirty subject, it feels bad to my self-valuing, Probably I have the wrong approach. Perhaps smartphones are passive and should be regarded with mildness, they could help us very much. If we managed to value them in our own terms, rather than valuing ourselves in their terms.

That is the basic master-slave dichotomy played out, but there is no dialectic in the essence, there is merely a battle of wills, of structural integrities growing so as to be immune to the damage the other can do - they don't shift back and forth in relation, that is the process of the being valued by the phone, that is itself a dialectical process. We are broken down in that process, put together differently and with parts of others in us -- it reduces structural integrity. But we are tough, I hope at least, I am tough in this sense, I resist it well, maybe because I have this theory, which explains to me not to surrender to other structural integrities except as the values instinctively dictated by this extra instinct, instinctive intuition, which the logic provides, because it is a rendering of life.

Now the other part which is being valued. This is where it gets complex and mathematical, why this aspect is prey to AI.
To what extent do we need to be valued to exist? Or do we only need to be valued to procreate? Though for a man, to value a woman is technically enough. A woman needs to be valued. This is how the primitive woman values herself, why pride is so direct, and easily hurt. Any fully developed woman however has more than procreational objectives in which she values herself, though in this fragmented world where so much power is being given to the primitive aspect of being valued, the old virtues in terms of which one valued oneself in less weird times, are being tested gravely. Whoever manages to value herself in this time in terms of being valued for virtue would be very powerful, though it may not seem so on the surface. It is not only a strong will that is implied in being focused on purity, but also the already being present of a standard, a quality which is not metaphysical, a nature which is manifest, which causes itself to stand out against the primeval soup which we are reentering - an agent of evolution thus, a primordial sign.

So basically people should first of all not behave towards one another, but to themselves. They should not look at the other person for their actions, they should look at their values for the other person. And they do this. In as far as humans are socially apt and happy, they behave like this. Only when they start looking at each other and mimicking they become lesser beings, a kind of ooze, which is a fascistic quality.

The crux of all of this is that we need to be honest about our power, before we can know what we are and act rightly. And the quickest way to become honest about "the quantum of power that one is - all else is cowardice" (Nietzsche) is to sink into ones self-valuing and see if it can take care of itself. No responding to automatisms anymore, only to truth. That truth is spirit, which self-values only in the purest terms. Spirit is most exclusive, and wealth now serves mostly to mimic spirit herein, rather than to serve it. Imagine what would become of the world if wealth would stand in service of spirit, if man did not value himself in terms of wealth, but wealth in terms of himself. Herself. Earthly man, the splendorous one, Zorba the Buddha, etc.

I hope this helps.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Jakob » Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:52 pm

Dan~ wrote:I've come to the realization that most of reality has a form of peace to it.
It's one of its main values. Being / Existing is another common value.
Being is similar to being alive, but life has a kind of work to it.
And higher forms of life have a sort of agitation,
but they still have their slightly elevated being.

Hopefully this makes sense.

Yes, it does, because inorganic matter, atoms, can exist for billions of years, without any additional effort. They are a complex of efforts being made seemingly automatically.
I think this is because it would take more effort for there to be nothing, than for there to be something. Something would have to prevent being from existing, yet nothing doesn't have the power to prevent anything. Mankind often makes an effort to not exist, to at least not be conscious of existence. It can't endure the relentless effort of the atoms; the molecular, living organism isn't up to the power given to it by its atoms.
Waking up without any specific emotion, just pure strength; we don't usually do that because there is so much standing in the way of us exerting such pure strength. Society is an ailment, a dirty web blocking our sunlight from reaching the outer empires of our world, the eyes of the strange attractor, the mysterious heart of the universe which we must value in order to be fully awake. This mysterious heart is the self-valuing beholding itself in the mirror of reality, through time space, in the aspect of Victory, where the immortal chooses a mortal path to attain an earthly value. This is related in Kabbalah to the sign of Scorpio, "I desire";

to desire is to allow the self-valuing to be unsatisfied for a long time, to become one with the unsatisfied valuing, which thrusts one back on the valuing itself, the value thereof; this is the pride of Scorpio.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby obsrvr524 » Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:38 pm

  • I get the socially valued or being valued vs self-valued (a distinction between child and adult).
  • I definitely get the man vs woman dichotomy.
  • I get the reluctance of dissonance within - "structural integrity".

But I am having problems consolidating suicide with self-valuing - kill the suffering body to save the soul? Wouldn't that be like killing off all Americans to save the US Constitution from corruption (which does seem to be the current agenda except for saving the Constitution - to be annihilated also)?

Jakob wrote:So basically people should first of all not behave towards one another, but to themselves. They should not look at the other person for their actions, they should look at their value for the other person.
- that sounds like dispassionate usury (usually instigating problems between others for personal benefit - Satanism).

Is scapegoating to be avoided? And why?

Unlike the US MSM with O'Biden, I am more of the hard-question journalist. :D
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Jakob » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:05 am

Btw that suicide bit you quoted was written by the poster I responded to. You quoted it without his name so it looks like I said it.

I simply concurred with the observation that even to kill oneself one must do it for a value.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby obsrvr524 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:50 am

So sorry - I edited the post -you can correct it in your copy as well.

And I am still waiting for an answer especially to -
obsrvr524 wrote:Is scapegoating to be avoided? And why?
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Jakob » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:53 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:So sorry - I edited the post -you can correct it in your copy as well.

And I am still waiting for an answer especially to -
obsrvr524 wrote:Is scapegoating to be avoided? And why?

Certainly I think scapegoating is a destructive exercise.

I think you misunderstood my comment about addressing the self - -
What I mean is, hardly anyone knows themselves, and when a self-ignorant person addresses another, it is impossible that he addresses the other properly. In fact there is a very real chance he will be scapegoating that person, projecting darker aspects of himself on that other.

We may have the same underlying concern.
My take is: to address the other with a favor without knowing oneself, one may actually be addressing the other with something much less than a favor.
Last edited by Jakob on Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby obsrvr524 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:57 pm

Jakob wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:So sorry - I edited the post -you can correct it in your copy as well.

And I am still waiting for an answer especially to -
obsrvr524 wrote:Is scapegoating to be avoided? And why?

Certainly I think scapegoating is a destructive exercise.

I think you misunderstood my comment about addressing the self - -
What I mean is, hardly anyone knows themselves, and when a self-ignorant person addresses another, it is impossible that he addresses the other properly. In fact there is a very real chance he will be scapegoating that person, projecting darker aspects of himself on that other.

We may have the same underlying concerns.

So how does self-valuing remedy that? :-k

It seems like the self-valuing emphasis is on what best suits that person (not others) - and that is what tempts people into scapegoating (avoiding the judgement from others - at someone else's expense).
Last edited by obsrvr524 on Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Jakob » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:00 pm

If one manages to self-value as a human, that is to say, value the world truly in terms of what one actually is, one actually takes pleasure and pride in owning all of oneself. Rather than just the bright and cheery parts, one also owns the darker sides and doesn't project them on another.
Im curious as to what percentage of humans comes close to this. It is the true Elite, in the cosmic, objective sense.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby obsrvr524 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:06 pm

Jakob wrote:If one manages to self-value as a human, that is to say, value the world truly in terms of what one actually is, one actually takes pleasure and pride in owning all of oneself. Rather than just the bright and cheery parts, one also owns the darker sides and doesn't project them on another.
Im curious as to what percentage of humans comes close to this. It is the true Elite, in the cosmic, objective sense.

Wouldn't that be taking pride in the talent of scapegoating to achieve more power for oneself?

That is definitely what has been happening for centuries and has led to the serious problems we have to live through - as people, especially in the most influential places, are still doing that - they value themselves more than anyone else - so why not shift blame onto others and take pride in the self-serving cleverness?
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Jakob » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:22 pm

You seem to be under the impression that exercising self-valuing logic is the same as valuing ones ego.
I thought it had become clear to you that the opposite is the case.

An atom has no ego. Yet it is the strongest self-valuing in physical existence.

Self-valuing logic is the protocol for truthful interactions. (i.e. causality, physics, love)
For a truthful interaction, one needs a true standard. In fact one needs two true standards, on both sides of the interaction. But if one of them remains truthful, the others deceit will gradually be eroded away.
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