ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, WTP)

[obsrvr524]

The ego certainly and ontologically exists - isn't it just self-valuing as you propose it should - disregarding the opinions of the rest of the person? Isn't that a WtP thing?

[Jakob]

Actually, the ego is an illusion, in as far as it is an active thing. All it does comes back to hurt it.

A "healthy ego" means a passive ego, as ego is essentially an overworked defense mechanism.

I politely ask that, along with not erroneously attributing quotes to me, you also don't attribute to me any proposals that I havent made. Please, cite and reference accurately. That is all part of self-valuing; truthful interaction.

[Jakob]

Im detailing a very subtle mechanism, which due to it's subtlety works very deeply, at the level of existence (ontos) itself.

The ego is not subtle and not deep, it doesn't hold any true existence; it is merely a reflection of things that do exist, and existentially negative.

Your image in the mirror does not self-value. It doesn't exist on its own terms, it has no own terms. The same goes for the ego. Like the mirror image, responding directly and literally to movements of the ego, goes exactly in the opposite direction of the truth, of self-valuing, of actual love.

[obsrvr524]

The mirror image doesn't defend itself. Isn't an ego a defense of an image - an internal reputation?

That defense mechanism definitely self-values - to what end is another matter.

And from what I understand the ego is most often a satanic type of blame-shifting mechanism - always trying to paint the best picture of itself so as to protect itself from fear. Governments do the same thing. I imagine the ego is just a governing mechanism within people.

You seem to be proposing that a proper self-valuing would lead to a more genuine behavior. I'm all in favor of that but I am not seeing why it would do that. It first appears to promote the opposite.

So what part of VO emphasizes the need to be genuine and not deceive others in the effort to support the self?

[Magnus Anderson]

]So how does self-valuing remedy that?

It seems like the self-valuing emphasis is on what best suits that person (not others) - and that is what tempts people into scapegoating (avoiding the judgement from others - at someone else's expense).

Understanding one's true needs entails the understanding that one needs others and that one needs them to be healthy (mentally and physically.) So in order to protect oneself, one protects others.

[Jakob]

]So how does self-valuing remedy that?

It seems like the self-valuing emphasis is on what best suits that person (not others) - and that is what tempts people into scapegoating (avoiding the judgement from others - at someone else's expense).

Understanding one's true needs entails the understanding that one needs others and that one needs them to be healthy (mentally and physically.) So in order to protect oneself, one protects others.

Thank you Magnus.

Indeed the individual as an isolated system is an illusion, which obeys to the second law of thermodynamics; in closed systems, entropy increases.

[obsrvr524]

]So how does self-valuing remedy that?

It seems like the self-valuing emphasis is on what best suits that person (not others) - and that is what tempts people into scapegoating (avoiding the judgement from others - at someone else's expense).

Understanding one's true needs entails the understanding that one needs others and that one needs them to be healthy (mentally and physically.)

The question I am trying to address is - "needs them in what capacity?" - As healthy slaves? As people to divert blame onto others while allowing the self to be free of judgement? What part of VO emphasizes keeping away from those very common self-valuing defenses?

[Jakob]

The question I am trying to address is - "needs them in what capacity?"

That is the right question, the same one I am advocating.
The capacity in which one addresses the others must be reflexion of the self. Dignity towards others is only possible when one has dignity towards oneself.

- As healthy slaves?

I do not think a slave can be healthy; in fact I regard health as the same as freedom.
It is not wise to surround oneself with slaves, just as it is not wise to surround oneself with illnesses. Slaves must revolt in order to self-value, to attain the state of health/freedom.

A truly secure self-valuing is surrounded only by other healthy self-valuings.

[obsrvr524]

We keep returning to an issue of wisely self-valuing rather than the far more common and contentious foolishly self-valuing.

I agree that people (and things I guess) self-value. So as an ontology - VO seems a valid one - being about what exists.

But it still seems that the emphasis is not directed toward wisdom in self-valuing but merely the thought that it exists - apparently expecting that thought to lead to wisdom. But I don't think people question their self-valuing much - some might. And those who question it appear to be the victims of those who do not question it but rather use the thought to unwisely abuse others. That seems to be the majority (as recently exposed in the USA government).

So how is focusing on something that few would question change anything that is already being done? How does VO actually change much of anything except in those relatively few who lost their self-valuing natural responses due to those who abused their self-valuing concerns?

It seems like it is only promoting a small part of the population toward more health while promoting the larger portion toward more abuse. In the long run it would seem to just bolster more contention and maniacal efforts to self-value utilizing deception - which is exactly what is already going on and has been for centuries - and has led to overwhelming authoritarian rule.

It seems to me that the more people consciously self-valuing - the more people will be trying to blame-shift so as to protect their self. There appears to be no emphasis on being wise about it or wise in any particular way - just defend yourself more by whatever works.

And Nietzsche has a reputation for that - dominate by whatever means gets you there. And Satanism is a particularly powerful tool expressly for that purpose (created for that purpose).

[Magnus Anderson]

The question I am trying to address is - "needs them in what capacity?" - As healthy slaves?

I don't think that slaves can be healthy. To be surrounded by slaves is to be surrounded by sickness. (Pretty much what Jakob says.)

And whoever Jakob is in practice, I don't think he defines the word "self-valuing" to mean "ego-valuing". I think that self-valuing is about discovering one's true needs, but perhaps more importantly, about what James calls "self-harmony" or "mind-body harmony". "Ego-valuing", on the other hand, would be about building and/or preserving a positive image of oneself at all costs (regardless of how unrealistic and/or disharmonious such a feat might be.)

[obsrvr524]

preserving a positive image of oneself at all costs (regardless of how unrealistic and/or disharmonious such a feat might be.)

Doesn't that exactly reflect what the socialists in the USA have been using to destroy the US Constitutional government? - who benefits? - only the socialist elites performing that satanic theater.

[Jakob]

Clearly the socialists don't value themselves as Americans, but as socialists.

Magnus; true needs, and perhaps more interestingly, true power.
What can one truly amount to, in an objective light?

Objective knowledge about oneself, knowing that objective knowledge about others is impossible.
Again quoting Nietzsche: "What matters is the quantum of power that one is, all else is cowardice."
We may might substitute "cowardice" with "uninteresting" or "silly" or any other word denoting an irrelevancy, an absence of truth.

[obsrvr524]

Clearly the socialists don't value themselves as Americans, but as socialists.

- even worse - as Globalists - supporting their ego fantasy even more greatly.

[Jakob]

Globalists value themselves as globalists. In as far as Socialism is globalism, they're both valued equally. Otherwise it's one on top of the other, for anyone. There's always an order of rank inside the individual. An individual is a rank order of valuings ("instincts").

[Kathrina]

I would like to throw a thesis into this virtual space:

Is it possible that RM:AO and VO are in the same relation to each other like rationality and irrationality or like (Kant/)Hegel and Schopenhauer/Nietzsche? I don't mean a strict opposition, but something like a rivalry in the attempt to find out the most important thing in cognition, which is tried on the one hand by means of rationality/reason/logic and which is tried on the other hand by not ignoring rationality/reason/logic, but considering it less important.

By the fact that mathematics has discovered the set of the irrational numbers, the rationality, so typical for mathematics, has not disappeared. The irrational numbers function in (function) equations, and that's all they are supposed to do. The rationality does not suffer from it, but enriches itself thereby even.

[obsrvr524]

I would like to throw a thesis into this virtual space:

Is it possible that RM:AO and VO are in the same relation to each other like rationality and irrationality or like (Kant/)Hegel and Schopenhauer/Nietzsche? I don't mean a strict opposition, but something like a rivalry in the attempt to find out the most important thing in cognition, which is tried on the one hand by means of rationality/reason/logic and which is tried on the other hand by not ignoring rationality/reason/logic, but considering it less important.

What I am seeing so far is that AO focuses on precisely what exists and how it all plays together to form the complexity of the universe and all within (ontology = what exists). And VO focuses on a proposed social remedy involving how to think of things so as to accomplish self-confidence and power.

It is like AO is about merely what is there - good or bad - just what it is - use it for what its worth.

And then VO seems to be more personally and socially focused on - due to what is there - think about it this way so that you can release your inner suppression.

Both state the ontological issue of what is there but one in great detail analyses and reveals every detail - to be used however someone chooses while the other reveals one fact and proposes that fact to be used for a particular purpose.

So I don't see one as rational and the other as irrational but more like one is logic and the other is advice (but I know far less about VO - so ---).

[Kathrina]

Humans are group beings (pack animals as well as e.g. wolves).

But what advice does VO give to this question about the group?

untab

I don't like to use the word "social", because this word has only been misused by almost everyone.

[Jakob]

I would like to throw a thesis into this virtual space:

Is it possible that RM:AO and VO are in the same relation to each other like rationality and irrationality or like (Kant/)Hegel and Schopenhauer/Nietzsche? I don't mean a strict opposition, but something like a rivalry in the attempt to find out the most important thing in cognition, which is tried on the one hand by means of rationality/reason/logic and which is tried on the other hand by not ignoring rationality/reason/logic, but considering it less important.

VO is a logic, a form of reason, but it doesn't fit all the way into a mathematical system. Which isn't strange, as mathematics is a tiny sliver of the edifice of rational thought and even a tinier sliver of truth, empirical and abstract - and by no means the deepest part of any of these. Mathematics is a surface phenomenon. It is the way that truth comes to the surface by permutation in certain hard-hewn terms. It is hard, but it isn't deep. It doesn't touch on reality directly. I see AO as a surface-emulator, a vector game on one facet of a complex object.

By the fact that mathematics has discovered the set of the irrational numbers, the rationality, so typical for mathematics, has not disappeared. The irrational numbers function in (function) equations, and that's all they are supposed to do. The rationality does not suffer from it, but enriches itself thereby even.

To be clear, I consider all thought that is not grounded in VO to be irrational.
That is why it exists. Because I found all human thought to be founded on blind assumptions.
VO is reasoning without any assumptions whatsoever.

So to your tabbed question:
An ontology doesn't prescribe. It simply shows what can and what can not exist.

You would have to tell me what you want and for whom as accurately as you can, then VO can show you what is possible and how.

[Jakob]

I consider AO to be irrational because of several premises it requires.
One is that of infinitesimals; QM refutes this. There is no smooth scale of scale, there are steps, integers. Therefore even the math that would describe this particular mechanism of the universe (how influence is distributed within a perfectly self-conductive (i.e. mathematical) paradigm) is literally infinitely more complex than AO math. And that's just one paradigm!

Another premise is the homogeneity of affectance, which is required for it to be uniformly calculable in terms of itself. This is absolutely not a given. It must be assumed.

[obsrvr524]

I consider AO to be irrational because of several premises it requires.
One is that of infinitesimals; QM refutes this. There is no smooth scale of scale, there are steps, integers.

That appears to be an assumption - a false one.

How do you know that the universe is constructed in stepping stone fashion?

And AO doesn't assume it either way.

Another premise is the homogeneity of affectance, which is required for it to be uniformly calculable in terms of itself. This is absolutely not a given. It must be assumed.

That is not in AO. AO states that homogeneity is impossible.

[Jakob]

I consider AO to be irrational because of several premises it requires.
One is that of infinitesimals; QM refutes this. There is no smooth scale of scale, there are steps, integers.

That appears to be an assumption - a false one.

How do you know that the universe is constructed in stepping stone fashion?

Well, that is Quantum Mechanics. Why they called it "quantum" mechanics.
It is the main finding of these guys. Read some Bohr.

Another premise is the homogeneity of affectance, which is required for it to be uniformly calculable in terms of itself. This is absolutely not a given. It must be assumed.

That is not in AO. AO states the homogeneity is impossible.

I did not say AO holds that the world is homogenous. I indicate that affectance, as a criterion, is homogenous.

Now "self-valuing" is homogenous as a logical criterion, but not as a mathematical one. Therefore the homogeneity it isn't a presupposed quality, but merely an assertion of method on the part of the thinker.

[obsrvr524]

I consider AO to be irrational because of several premises it requires.
One is that of infinitesimals; QM refutes this. There is no smooth scale of scale, there are steps, integers.

That appears to be an assumption - a false one.

How do you know that the universe is constructed in stepping stone fashion?

Well, that is Quantum Mechanics. Why they called it "quantum" mechanics.
It is the main finding of these guys. Read some Bohr.

But their "ontology" is based on measuring a lot of things then assuming an average as the "quantum". They ignore the details and build their entire ontology based on group categories - "everything we measure has an average quantity of energy - so everything is made of quanta of energy".

They have to know that they have just made a convenience for calculating the typical size of small things. That is not a complete picture of reality - it is a crude estimate for ease of calculation (similar to dividing all people into political groups - regardless of their individuality - it serves the planners and manipulators).

Another premise is the homogeneity of affectance, which is required for it to be uniformly calculable in terms of itself. This is absolutely not a given. It must be assumed.

That is not in AO. AO states the homogeneity is impossible.

I did not say AO holds that the world is homogenous. I indicate that affectance, as a criterion, is homogenous.

That is not in AO. AO states the opposite - that homogeneity is impossible in the real world. And that leads to the fact that any "quantum" cannot be homogeneous inside - so what is inside each quantum?

Now "self-valuing" is homogenous as a logical criterion, but not as a mathematical one. Therefore the homogeneity it isn't a presupposed quality, but merely an assertion of method on the part of the thinker.

I assumed that is what you meant originally. VO doesn't appear to get into the extremely finer details of the construct of the universe. That's why I said it appears to be focused on how people should think of themselves so as to achieve an outcome.

And what I was questioning is what outcome could really be expected in a large population. It seems to be promoting the power grabbing anarchy that Nietzsche was infamous for (such as the corporate and political USA - and now the globalist "Godwannabes").

[Jakob]

But their "ontology" is based on measuring a lot of things then assuming an average as the "quantum". They ignore the details and build their entire ontology based on group categories - "everything we measure has an average quantity of energy - so everything is made of quanta of energy".

They have to know that they have just made a convenience for calculating the typical size of small things. That is not a complete picture of reality - it is a crude estimate for ease of calculation (similar to dividing all people into political groups - regardless of their individuality - it serves the planners and manipulators).

That is what I had inferred from what is taught by wikipedia and such. But after I read Bohr I understood that the step-wise buildup is inferred from spectral data. Quanta on the subatomic scale interact with each other in a way that does not produce gradations of energy in the way that a smooth increase would prescribe, as it does on Newtonean scales; the bottom line is that smooth scales are a matter of averages. Accuracy shows reality to be anything but smooth; it is rather jagged.

I do believe you interpret too much humanities into the sciences.

I did not say AO holds that the world is homogenous. I indicate that affectance, as a criterion, is homogenous.

That is not in AO. AO states the opposite - that homogeneity is impossible in the real world.

I just said that that is not what I meant. The criterion is homogenous with itself on a level (math) that VO's criterion is not. The calculatability of real order in terms of quantity is not a given.

And that leads to the fact that any "quantum" cannot be homogeneous inside - so what is inside each quantum?

You are presuming it is the same in each quantum. But by referring to it as a quantum we simply mean that it is a presence in a system.
Formally, there is nothing inside of it that isnt made explicit by its role in the system.
Whatever is in the quantum but not observed in terms of a system, is logically inscrutable, yet it may in stand forth in larger systems.
RM presumes to be able to designate that role in advance on a categorical, scale, but I say it can not be done, for the following reasons;

In mathematics thus also in RM,
1=1.
But that presumes that "1" equals "1" and nothing else. That is, a sign without content.

To me, 1>0<1', and onward >0<1'' and so forth, would be required to do maths with VO.

Whatever "1" is meant to designate in the universe, thus whatever holds ontological value, is more than just a number. "1" can never apply to the universe if it is truly and fully equal to another instance of "1",

This is not merely theoretical but practical. If we apply the integers to hydrogen atoms, protons, or electrons for example, that is, units of which we know that they have the same mathematical values in terms of their mass and their charge, then it appears that we can not hold 3 atoms in the same framework as we can hold 2 atoms. With every added integer, a new system occurs. A system of 2 atoms is in turn not the same as a system of 1 atom. Only a system of 1 atom is equal to that same system, but this is fully tautological and may serve no sneaky function inside a true system. I thus reject "A"="A" as a philosophic premise, just as I reject "tree" = "tree". I can only concur that hydrogen atom'>(no atom)<hydrogen atom''.
meaning: a hydrogen atom is as much more atomic mass than zero as another hydrogen is.

They are not equal to each other, and any representation of than as such is guaranteed to disregard or misapprehend their function in a system.

This means that VO can work with an indefinite amount of systems, known and unknown, without distorting logical procedure; it means that whatever occurs as certainty is fully local, based in empirical truth, what actually happens, conscious experience; it is therefore not a metaphysics. It is a method without prescriptions of any kind, other than that the subject must be able to be interpreted as existent. Strangely enough, there are laws, limits emanating from this requirement. Such as, for example, that units fitting in any system may not be infinitesimal; because infinitesimals do not amount to systems like integers do.as I described above; they do not bring about interactive paradigms, thus no increase in dimensions, thus no fractals, no "chaos".
Chaos is the order that exists between orders.
An hermetic instance of VO logic stands amidst the chaos as a source and coordinator, a master signifier, in whose terms his surrounding may be coherently understood, but in whose terms another master-signifier may not necessarily be understood. One MS merely equals No MS to the same measure as the next MS. They do not compute with each other, therefore do not equal each other in terms that apply to either one of them.

This is, incidentally, why 1 is not a prime.
A prime must have 2 signifiers; "1" and themselves. In "1", the second signifier is only a formal derivative of the first. So between the lines of what is instantly explicit,
1 is not a mathematical object in the same way that the primes are.
Strange atractors are consequences of properties that are not instantly explicit, but become manifest only when a system takes on a certain degree of complexity.
The increase of complexity is never so great as when 1 is added to 1; from there on the complexity sometimes slowly increases, then suddenly quadratizes, perhaps becomes infinite for a while until it is reduced into a structure next; the only consistency there is in increase of complexity with increase in units, is consecutive 'beauties' of signifiers. 'beauty' is how we apprehend a truth, a Thing, which carries a chaotically unfolding range. In mathematics, the primes are the beauties and the range is the range of primes, which is undecipherable in other terms than in primes.

[Pedro I Rengel]

I have never before in my life laughed at a mathematical text. Now I get it.

Thank you.

[Pedro I Rengel]

OK no I guess I had laughed. But not really laughed.

Ok. Thank you.