Dorian Gray

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Dorian Gray

Postby unsuper » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:54 pm

i'm reading dorian gray and it's like meant for me. i believe in productive hedonsim...there is no more to life than your experience, logic, at it's very core would tell you to feed that experience. productive hedonism is, if it were a religion, the religion of life itself

the book says things like most people who live for the senses live an animalistic life but that living for th senses hasnt been truely realized. and that there should be a new type of hedonism


i think that this book is the book that defines oscar wilde as a person. in the book basil, the painter, says that he was afraid the painting showed too much of his soul (basically implying that he is gay and the painting shopws that because of the way he worships the(male) image of dorain gray) and i think that oscar wilde felt that way about his book

it's an awesome book. i just think it was a little too meant for it's time in the same way that a movie like scary movie would be completely stupid for a person who was born today to watch in 15 years because everything in the movie is a reference to the pop culture of the time

let's have a discussion about aestheticism, hedonsim in general, the book itself :banana-dance:
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby gib » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:05 pm

Why don't we start with an exegesis of what productive hedonism is. How does it break down as a philosophy?
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby unsuper » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:22 pm

pretty much self explanitory
basically it *is* true hedonism. an ultimate pleasure seeker would obviously think of the future

"these drugs are awesome but too much of them will put me in the hospital, not only that but enjoy them so much more when i do them every once in a while"
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby Duality » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:46 pm

sensual pleasure is not equivalent to happiness
"A truth is not necessary, because we negatively are not able to conceive the actual existence of the opposite thereof;but a truth is necessary when we positively are able to apprehend that the negation thereof includes an inevitable contradiction. It is not that that we can see how the opposite comes to be true, but it is that the opposite can not possibly be true." -R.L. Dabney

"Those then who know not wisdom and virtue, and are always busy with gluttony and sensuality, go down and up again as far as the mean; and in this region they move at random throughout life, but they never pass into the true upper world; thither they neither look, nor do they ever find their way, neither are they truly filled with true being, nor do they ever taste of pure and abiding pleasure." -Socrates
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby JohnJones » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:36 pm

unsuper wrote:i'm reading dorian gray and it's like meant for me. i believe in productive hedonsim...there is no more to life than your experience, logic, at it's very core would tell you to feed that experience. productive hedonism is, if it were a religion, the religion of life itself

the book says things like most people who live for the senses live an animalistic life but that living for th senses hasnt been truely realized. and that there should be a new type of hedonism


i think that this book is the book that defines oscar wilde as a person. in the book basil, the painter, says that he was afraid the painting showed too much of his soul (basically implying that he is gay and the painting shopws that because of the way he worships the(male) image of dorain gray) and i think that oscar wilde felt that way about his book

it's an awesome book. i just think it was a little too meant for it's time in the same way that a movie like scary movie would be completely stupid for a person who was born today to watch in 15 years because everything in the movie is a reference to the pop culture of the time

let's have a discussion about aestheticism, hedonsim in general, the book itself :banana-dance:


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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby Bluff » Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:35 pm

Duality wrote:sensual pleasure is not equivalent to happiness


It's not been said that it is. What's your point?

JohnJones wrote:iLIKEBOOkS to. i TH iN k sOME R BETTER THAN OTHER S i THiNK
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby gib » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:50 pm

Duality wrote:sensual pleasure is not equivalent to happiness


No, but emotional pleasure is.
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby Duality » Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:19 pm

gib wrote:
Duality wrote:sensual pleasure is not equivalent to happiness


No, but emotional pleasure is.

wrong again
"A truth is not necessary, because we negatively are not able to conceive the actual existence of the opposite thereof;but a truth is necessary when we positively are able to apprehend that the negation thereof includes an inevitable contradiction. It is not that that we can see how the opposite comes to be true, but it is that the opposite can not possibly be true." -R.L. Dabney

"Those then who know not wisdom and virtue, and are always busy with gluttony and sensuality, go down and up again as far as the mean; and in this region they move at random throughout life, but they never pass into the true upper world; thither they neither look, nor do they ever find their way, neither are they truly filled with true being, nor do they ever taste of pure and abiding pleasure." -Socrates
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby gib » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:34 pm

Duality wrote:wrong again


How enlightening. Care to explain why?
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Why can't you hear a psychiatrist using the bathroom? Because the P is silent.
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby Duality » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:09 pm

emotions are sensations

also your quote that meaning and purpose have no distinguishing characteristics is dubious. purpose is defined by recurring patterns or a sense of fate. basic laws of physics, therefore, are evidence of purpose.
"A truth is not necessary, because we negatively are not able to conceive the actual existence of the opposite thereof;but a truth is necessary when we positively are able to apprehend that the negation thereof includes an inevitable contradiction. It is not that that we can see how the opposite comes to be true, but it is that the opposite can not possibly be true." -R.L. Dabney

"Those then who know not wisdom and virtue, and are always busy with gluttony and sensuality, go down and up again as far as the mean; and in this region they move at random throughout life, but they never pass into the true upper world; thither they neither look, nor do they ever find their way, neither are they truly filled with true being, nor do they ever taste of pure and abiding pleasure." -Socrates
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby unsuper » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:11 am

Duality wrote:sensual pleasure is not equivalent to happiness

sounds like a personal problem to me... :lol:

i think a lot of us suffer from a misplaced sense of happiness and pleasure. i want to be in control of my emotions. i want my happiness to follow logic. and personal logic is always selfish....or else it isn't too logical
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby unsuper » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:14 am

Duality wrote:emotions are sensations

also your quote that meaning and purpose have no distinguishing characteristics is dubious. purpose is defined by recurring patterns or a sense of fate. basic laws of physics, therefore, are evidence of purpose.

happiness is an emotion (and a sensation)

i'm gunna throw in the word i think you're thinking of: guilt
i don't even like saying it. i think the word as well as the sensation shouldn't exist
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby Duality » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:49 am

unsuper wrote:i think a lot of us suffer from a misplaced sense of happiness and pleasure. i want to be in control of my emotions. i want my happiness to follow logic. and personal logic is always selfish....or else it isn't too logical


you don't want it to follow logic, you want it to follow your conscious desires for existential fulfillment. when you perceive the meaning and purpose of something to be not what you desire it to be, you are left unfulfilled/uncontented. logic is nothing but a partial way for us to satisfy our perceptions of existence by addition of further meaning and purpose. because if we can ascertain how something will probably behave, we can subsequently apply to and receive purpose from it.

logic is also often pragmatic, but the pragmatism does not contribute additional meaning and purpose to our perceptions, just as things like sensations do not. however, a constant influx of negative sensations may lead to a conscious rebellion against or abandonment of perceived purpose. hence why conflict is so powerful in inducing change.

but even this conflict is an extension of conscious desire- the primordial duel of the ego and the superego. when conflict thoroughly overpowers purpose there is self-destruction and eventual suiciding out. when purpose throughly overpowers conflict, there is complacency, weakness and eventual annihilation/subjugation from external forces. hence why attainment of equilibrium is necessary.
"A truth is not necessary, because we negatively are not able to conceive the actual existence of the opposite thereof;but a truth is necessary when we positively are able to apprehend that the negation thereof includes an inevitable contradiction. It is not that that we can see how the opposite comes to be true, but it is that the opposite can not possibly be true." -R.L. Dabney

"Those then who know not wisdom and virtue, and are always busy with gluttony and sensuality, go down and up again as far as the mean; and in this region they move at random throughout life, but they never pass into the true upper world; thither they neither look, nor do they ever find their way, neither are they truly filled with true being, nor do they ever taste of pure and abiding pleasure." -Socrates
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby Duality » Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:26 am

Duality wrote:hence why attainment of equilibrium is necessary.

I would also like to add that most people do not have the conscious capacity of attaining this, and so they cling to whatever society tries to offer them in terms of fulfillment. Obviously lots of purpose and minimal conflict for it's sedative effect.
"A truth is not necessary, because we negatively are not able to conceive the actual existence of the opposite thereof;but a truth is necessary when we positively are able to apprehend that the negation thereof includes an inevitable contradiction. It is not that that we can see how the opposite comes to be true, but it is that the opposite can not possibly be true." -R.L. Dabney

"Those then who know not wisdom and virtue, and are always busy with gluttony and sensuality, go down and up again as far as the mean; and in this region they move at random throughout life, but they never pass into the true upper world; thither they neither look, nor do they ever find their way, neither are they truly filled with true being, nor do they ever taste of pure and abiding pleasure." -Socrates
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby gib » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:04 am

Duality wrote:emotions are sensations


Then either happiness is not an emotion, or some sensations are happiness.

Duality wrote:also your quote that meaning and purpose have no distinguishing characteristics is dubious.


When, prey tell, did I say that?

Duality wrote:purpose is defined by recurring patterns or a sense of fate. basic laws of physics, therefore, are evidence of purpose.


If you say so... shall we get back to the subject at hand?
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby Socratepicuristotle » Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:59 am

One cannot experience the fullest life without learning about life, something hedonists would not like because learning in general is a painful experience. Hedonists would choose life as a rich, bottomless pit playboy (or playgirl) drinking, smoking, eating delicious food, and having orgasmic sex all day in a mansion on the beach. All of these things are easy to do, and are in fact very pleasurable to do. A true hedonist would not choose to learn math all day and write essays and read boring history books over the former pleasures. But in order to experience life to the fullest one must endure the pain of learning to broaden one’s appreciation of certain pleasures. A person whom was familiar with Shakespeare, drama, and read a lot about the subject would extract more pleasure from a Shakespearean play than somebody who never even heard of Shakespeare watching the same play. In other words, if you need to endure pain to increase pleasure then you are in fact hedonistic but are not a true hedonist. And there are many people whom would despise the life of a hedonist where pleasure is the sole motive for existence. Some people, in fact, attain a sense of well-being be denying themsleves physical pleasures, as in the case of a person pushing away a bowl of ice cream. They deny themselves the pleasure of eating ice cream, yet they experience a greater sense of well-being in doing so. This well-being is not the same type of pleasure as one would derive from eating the ice cream, putting into doubt the premise that pleasure is the most important goal in life.
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby Duality » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:57 am

gib wrote:
Duality wrote:emotions are sensations

Then either happiness is not an emotion, or some sensations are happiness.

emotions are labels human beings use to distinguish sensations they feel. nothing more

gib wrote:
Duality wrote:also your quote that meaning and purpose have no distinguishing characteristics is dubious.

When, prey tell, did I say that?

when it's characteristics were likened to something without meaning or purpose
"A truth is not necessary, because we negatively are not able to conceive the actual existence of the opposite thereof;but a truth is necessary when we positively are able to apprehend that the negation thereof includes an inevitable contradiction. It is not that that we can see how the opposite comes to be true, but it is that the opposite can not possibly be true." -R.L. Dabney

"Those then who know not wisdom and virtue, and are always busy with gluttony and sensuality, go down and up again as far as the mean; and in this region they move at random throughout life, but they never pass into the true upper world; thither they neither look, nor do they ever find their way, neither are they truly filled with true being, nor do they ever taste of pure and abiding pleasure." -Socrates
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby gib » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:11 am

Duality wrote:emotions are labels human beings use to distinguish sensations they feel. nothing more


And what does that say about happiness?

gib wrote:when it's characteristics were likened to something without meaning or purpose


I never said anything like that.
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Why can't you hear a psychiatrist using the bathroom? Because the P is silent.
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby JohnJones » Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:21 am

unsuper wrote:i'm reading dorian gray and it's like meant for me. i believe in productive hedonsim...there is no more to life than your experience, logic, at it's very core would tell you to feed that experience. productive hedonism is, if it were a religion, the religion of life itself

the book says things like most people who live for the senses live an animalistic life but that living for th senses hasnt been truely realized. and that there should be a new type of hedonism


i think that this book is the book that defines oscar wilde as a person. in the book basil, the painter, says that he was afraid the painting showed too much of his soul (basically implying that he is gay and the painting shopws that because of the way he worships the(male) image of dorain gray) and i think that oscar wilde felt that way about his book

it's an awesome book. i just think it was a little too meant for it's time in the same way that a movie like scary movie would be completely stupid for a person who was born today to watch in 15 years because everything in the movie is a reference to the pop culture of the time

let's have a discussion about aestheticism, hedonsim in general, the book itself :banana-dance:



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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby unsuper » Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:26 pm

Duality wrote:you don't want it to follow logic, you want it to follow your conscious desires for existential fulfillment. when you perceive the meaning and purpose of something to be not what you desire it to be, you are left unfulfilled/uncontented. logic is nothing but a partial way for us to satisfy our perceptions of existence by addition of further meaning and purpose. because if we can ascertain how something will probably behave, we can subsequently apply to and receive purpose from it.


existentialism is logical: my point. if you believe otherwise it is because your parents/society succeeded in passing on the antihuman conditioning to you. i'm not creating matrixes that exist to satisfy themselves (if...you get what i mean? it's the same thing that you are getting at when you say "logic is nothing but a partial way for us to satisfy our perceptions of existence by addition of further meaning and purpose") these matrixes create false foundations of reality and you begin to decide what is good vs bad based on this false foundation. this is basic and pure logic. i'm bashing down every foundation besides the one that is *me* (what buddhists and nihilst fail to do. they want a perspectiveless perspective. it makes no sense)



i ahve to go. will continue later
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby JohnJones » Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:03 am

unsuper wrote:
Duality wrote:you don't want it to follow logic, you want it to follow your conscious desires for existential fulfillment. when you perceive the meaning and purpose of something to be not what you desire it to be, you are left unfulfilled/uncontented. logic is nothing but a partial way for us to satisfy our perceptions of existence by addition of further meaning and purpose. because if we can ascertain how something will probably behave, we can subsequently apply to and receive purpose from it.


existentialism is logical: my point. if you believe otherwise it is because your parents/society succeeded in passing on the antihuman conditioning to you. i'm not creating matrixes that exist to satisfy themselves (if...you get what i mean? it's the same thing that you are getting at when you say "logic is nothing but a partial way for us to satisfy our perceptions of existence by addition of further meaning and purpose") these matrixes create false foundations of reality and you begin to decide what is good vs bad based on this false foundation. this is basic and pure logic. i'm bashing down every foundation besides the one that is *me* (what buddhists and nihilst fail to do. they want a perspectiveless perspective. it makes no sense)



i ahve to go. will continue later



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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby unsuper » Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:05 pm

john jones do you consider yourself to be a stupid person?
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby unsuper » Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:06 pm

....maybe it's justb british humor or some such shit
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby unsuper » Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:21 pm

Socratepicuristotle wrote:One cannot experience the fullest life without learning about life, something hedonists would not like because learning in general is a painful experience.

i'm tempted to just stop reading there. if you consider learning to be a painful experience i'm not sure what you are doing on a philosophy site

Socratepicuristotle wrote:Hedonists would choose life as a rich, bottomless pit playboy (or playgirl) drinking, smoking, eating delicious food, and having orgasmic sex all day in a mansion on the beach. All of these things are easy to do, and are in fact very pleasurable to do.


you sure about that? if it's so easy then why can't i do it??

Socratepicuristotle wrote:A true hedonist would not choose to learn math all day and write essays and read boring history books over the former pleasures. But in order to experience life to the fullest one must endure the pain of learning to broaden one’s appreciation of certain pleasures. A person whom was familiar with Shakespeare, drama, and read a lot about the subject would extract more pleasure from a Shakespearean play than somebody who never even heard of Shakespeare watching the same play. In other words, if you need to endure pain to increase pleasure then you are in fact hedonistic but are not a true hedonist. And there are many people whom would despise the life of a hedonist where pleasure is the sole motive for existence. Some people, in fact, attain a sense of well-being be denying themsleves physical pleasures, as in the case of a person pushing away a bowl of ice cream. They deny themselves the pleasure of eating ice cream, yet they experience a greater sense of well-being in doing so. This well-being is not the same type of pleasure as one would derive from eating the ice cream, putting into doubt the premise that pleasure is the most important goal in life.


first of all a hedonist wouldn't spend all day learning math. i am yet to see a requirement in math beyond multiplication/division and fractions that have any purpose in the everyday. and why wouldn't a hedonist take pleasure in seeing a good play? or reading a good book?

when it comes to the icecream, if you get what i think you are getting at , then it can be a symbol for the whole of true (productive) hedonism. ice cream tastes great but it does get you fat. a hedonist obviously would prefer something like having a good body than eating ice cream all day.

a hedonist would want to attain as much wil/power as he could and that is done by following logic. any more than that should be obvious

humans are the biggest impact on this earth. if you want to be able to get the most pleasure out of life you'd have to learn humans

/thread
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Re: Dorian Gray

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:28 pm

unsuper wrote:
Socratepicuristotle wrote:One cannot experience the fullest life without learning about life, something hedonists would not like because learning in general is a painful experience.

i'm tempted to just stop reading there. if you consider learning to be a painful experience i'm not sure what you are doing on a philosophy site

Socratepicuristotle wrote:Hedonists would choose life as a rich, bottomless pit playboy (or playgirl) drinking, smoking, eating delicious food, and having orgasmic sex all day in a mansion on the beach. All of these things are easy to do, and are in fact very pleasurable to do.


you sure about that? if it's so easy then why can't i do it??

Socratepicuristotle wrote:A true hedonist would not choose to learn math all day and write essays and read boring history books over the former pleasures. But in order to experience life to the fullest one must endure the pain of learning to broaden one’s appreciation of certain pleasures. A person whom was familiar with Shakespeare, drama, and read a lot about the subject would extract more pleasure from a Shakespearean play than somebody who never even heard of Shakespeare watching the same play. In other words, if you need to endure pain to increase pleasure then you are in fact hedonistic but are not a true hedonist. And there are many people whom would despise the life of a hedonist where pleasure is the sole motive for existence. Some people, in fact, attain a sense of well-being be denying themsleves physical pleasures, as in the case of a person pushing away a bowl of ice cream. They deny themselves the pleasure of eating ice cream, yet they experience a greater sense of well-being in doing so. This well-being is not the same type of pleasure as one would derive from eating the ice cream, putting into doubt the premise that pleasure is the most important goal in life.


first of all a hedonist wouldn't spend all day learning math. i am yet to see a requirement in math beyond multiplication/division and fractions that have any purpose in the everyday. and why wouldn't a hedonist take pleasure in seeing a good play? or reading a good book?

when it comes to the icecream, if you get what i think you are getting at , then it can be a symbol for the whole of true (productive) hedonism. ice cream tastes great but it does get you fat. a hedonist obviously would prefer something like having a good body than eating ice cream all day.

a hedonist would want to attain as much wil/power as he could and that is done by following logic. any more than that should be obvious

humans are the biggest impact on this earth. if you want to be able to get the most pleasure out of life you'd have to learn humans

/thread


What is pleasurable is some subjective judgment that comes from the individual. If Math is pleasurable to engage in, a hedonist can surely spend all day getting his kicks from formulas. Pleasure is not the same for all.
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