Determinism

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Re: Determinism

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Thu May 06, 2021 3:14 pm

The Canadians are such puffs they are hurt by somebody calling them an idiot.
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: Determinism

Postby Meno_ » Thu May 06, 2021 3:27 pm

I really feel I must reply. In fact my 'proof by contradiction'is not meant to be anything but, and the truth of the matter is in my mind beyond dispute, since the problem of attitude, arrogantly presupposed seems to be the final arbiter.

Arrogance is a optically playing metaphor which appears to eat up the contents of the dynamic manifested results of primary contradiction, which after all is at the heart of the discussion between determining and intentional factors which come into play.

That I have openly come out expressing my opposition to Polish Youngster's ban, should be ample evidence to where I honestly stand fir a politically neutral sounding board regarding the coming objective validity of a sought after position yet not defined.

This contradictory premise is fodder to conflation thus becomes a reflection of a necessery literal solution vis one where allusion through contingency is manifested through what appears to be control; social or otherwise.

This is no longer an allusion but a manifested break. in the illusive power of contradiction.

What must happen will be seen as one that should happen rather then one that might happen.

The last is the idea of the functional utility any such reduction could have conceived,

Philosophycally speaking it is a conventional way of describing those, who explore these type of issues from the point of view toward and from this type of logic.

An example I can think of, is an MS of yesteryear: 'Open society and It's enemies'.
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Re: Determinism

Postby encode_decode » Thu May 06, 2021 3:33 pm

Interesting.

I did not know whether you wanted to go there or not Meno.

You have always struck me as an analytical type as well as a peaceful type.

You also seem to be able to weather most storms.

I also remember the confusing days of Trixie who I was sad to see go.
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Re: Determinism

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Thu May 06, 2021 3:42 pm

You are insane.
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: Determinism

Postby encode_decode » Thu May 06, 2021 3:47 pm

polishyouthgotipbanned wrote:You are insane.

Insane for being sad to see people go?

:-k

How is that a definition of insanity?

Back in my day people used to knock each other's heads off - something that would have happened to you, I have no doubt. You would have been put in your place pretty quickly.
But now we live in a softer society with a cushioned existence.

It is easy to be the tough man on the internet but when you have to go one on one with someone that is always a different story.
Guns and gang fights are for the real pussies.

Mouthing off as you do achieves absolutely nothing.
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I only meant that the cat knows - or discovers - that we can toss it out a window at any time = "authority". Dogs accept that notion more quickly - not as willing to test it. O:) - obsrvr524
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Re: Determinism

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Thu May 06, 2021 4:19 pm

What the fuck are you talking about spook.
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: Determinism

Postby encode_decode » Thu May 06, 2021 4:21 pm

polishyouthgotipbanned wrote:What the fuck are you talking about spook.

What the fuck are you talking about?

I am hopeful that you saw my post before I edited it.

Now back to what I am interested in - whether you should be banned or not.

I don't see a reason for it yet, at least from my point of view...and dude...some things really do go over your head.
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I only meant that the cat knows - or discovers - that we can toss it out a window at any time = "authority". Dogs accept that notion more quickly - not as willing to test it. O:) - obsrvr524
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Re: Determinism

Postby Meno_ » Thu May 06, 2021 5:25 pm

encode_decode wrote:Interesting.

I did not know whether you wanted to go there or not Meno.

You have always struck me as an analytical type as well as a peaceful type.

You also seem to be able to weather most storms.

I also remember the confusing days of Trixie who I was sad to see go.



Oh yes. Trixie always wondered why she left. Thinkin' me a shadow a dilletante standing next to her.

But yes why not go 'there, or anywhere for that matter, but definitely not everywhere.

Even explore such strange existential problems, amusing, such as the intricacies of gifted dillitantism from autistic perspectives, or how I came to love modern Italian prose.


The prof.from Umberto Ecco's :' Foucalt's Pendulum'.

From confessions
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Re: Determinism

Postby encode_decode » Thu May 06, 2021 6:05 pm

Meno_ wrote:Oh yes. Trixie always wondered why she left. Thinkin' me a shadow a dilletante standing next to her.

But yes why not go 'there, or anywhere for that matter, but definitely not everywhere.

Even explore such strange existential problems, amusing, such as the intricacies of gifted dillitantism from autistic perspectives, or how I came to love modern Italian prose.


The prof.from Umberto Ecco's :' Foucalt's Pendulum'.

From confessions

Well, we should have interests outside this monstrous domain. I love music.

Yes some places, even I do not want to go.

I have an autistic friend - absolute genius - very frustrating at times...but...he picks up some things much quicker than so-called normal people.
I read one of those articles you linked to - interesting concepts - I think the label is extended a little too far - the spectrum just a tad too large.
I am sure when the world gets its own mind back, it will be adjusted.

I have discovered some deterministic aspects of the mind driven of course by the brain...
...there are some that are considered non-deterministic...
...but since this thread is not about the mind but simply named determinism...welp...
Last edited by encode_decode on Thu May 06, 2021 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I only meant that the cat knows - or discovers - that we can toss it out a window at any time = "authority". Dogs accept that notion more quickly - not as willing to test it. O:) - obsrvr524
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Re: Determinism

Postby peacegirl » Thu May 06, 2021 6:08 pm

peacegirl wrote:
He obviously can’t help himself. That doesn’t make his derailing of this thread any less disturbing, nor does it excuse his behavior! In the world we live in, getting someone banned may be the best option.


Iambiguous: Again, this is what I struggle to grasp about her own understanding of free will.

As I understand a determined universe, he literally could not help himself. In fact, all 98 pages of this thread merely reflects the only possible reality.

And, as I understand free will, polishyouth's brain has somehow evolved into matter of an entirely different order. Like yours and mine. It is matter that really is able to opt autonomously to post one point of view rather than another.

Peacegirl: Definition is playing games with you again. “To opt autonomously to post” (without force) is not synonymous with opting with free will.

Iambiguous: And, then, given new experiences, new relationships and access to new information, knowledge and ideas he is able to opt freely to change his mind.

Peacegirl: Being able to contemplate gives the illusion of opting freely but that would mean one can opt to choose other than what one chooses. IOW, one could have chosen otherwise. Impossible.

Iambiguous: But points of view here are, given a real deal free will world, more the embodiment of a subjective frame of mind rooted in dasein. Or, in his case, a "condition".

Peacegirl: A subjective frame of mind rooted in dasein has nothing to do with free will. Neither does a “condition.”

Iambiguous: Whereas in peacegirl's free will/no free will agglomerated brain/mind above, even though he can't help himself, some of us are still justified in being disturbed by what he posts; and that getting him banned is the best option. Even though it would seem that we couldn't help ourselves here either

Peacegirl: Very true.

Iambiguous: Makes no sense to me other than by accepting the fact that nature is just not ready to enlighten me. But that would imply a teleological component in nature. And how on earth can we wrap our minds around that...even though it would only be as nature compelled us.[/quote]

Peacegirl: You don’t have to make this whole thing sound mysterious Iambiguous. Nature is not separate from you, which goes back to your confused definition of determinism.
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Re: Determinism

Postby iambiguous » Thu May 06, 2021 6:23 pm

Determinism versus Determinism
Nurana Rajabova is determined to sort it out.

Defenders of this theory [above] resist non-physical explanations of thought and extend the laws of physics to the human mind. Consequently, humans are viewed simply as a part of physics with no power of causation in their minds – no effective power of choice. In this sense, humans are simply pre-programmed ‘moist robots’ (a term coined by Scott Adams), created physically causally, and acting only physically causally.


Come on, who is kidding whom? Are we really expected to believe that the biological matter involved in producing a human pregnancy that is then aborted is exactly the same as the matter in the brain that discusses and debates the morality of the abortion?

Yet, okay, admittedly, given my own "here and now" assumptions about determinism, that is basically what I expect others to believe.

Only I don't have any autonomous say about it in a determined world and, in a real deal free will world, I don't have any possible way in which to demonstrate that my frame of mind is either the optimal or the only rational way in which to think about it.

Same with this intellectual contraption:

Our actions, be they evil or good, do not originate from us. We experience our thoughts, feelings and ‘decisions’ because we are determined to experience them at the particular instances we do. Even the wishes, desires, thoughts that we feel we are initiating by our power of choice are, in fact, completely outside of our power, since we have no power of choice. We have no choice but live through our predestined script, as the actors of that script. In this way, we are victims of fate. Upon this account, we would not be wrong to say that the first cause determined for each person living fourteen billion years after to have a particular feeling or emotion at any given time. Right now as I am typing this article, the speed with which I’m moving my fingers, the typos I make, and ‘choose’ to correct, were also determined at that very first cause.


Sound familiar?

What else is there here but to accept our surreal fate? Everything posted on this thread to date [including the dreck of late] is either from the minds of those -- all of us for example -- wholly in sync with the ultimately mysterious laws of matter or if there is an element of volition in the matter that has become the human brain, we are unable to grasp it in its entirety going back to an explanation for existence itself.

Try this:

If you want to know just how mind-bogglingly vast and mysterious the universe that we all live in is -- and how infinitesimally insignificant we are here on planet Earth -- tune in to the space programs on the Science Channel.

In other words, compelled or not.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Determinism

Postby iambiguous » Sat May 08, 2021 7:08 pm

satyr wrote: A pretty girls choose to wear provocative clothes, even if she has an option of wearing less sexually provocative clothes.
She may know, or may not, that doing so will invite unwanted attentions from all sort of Desperate Degenerate psyche's.
Is she is raped, is it entirely the other's fault, or does she have a portion - large or small - of the blame, since she chose to go out dressed in a provocative way?
Is the "victim" entirely and completely blameless, just because wish fell victim?


Note to nature:

With your permission, I'm now switching over to the real deal free will world.

This is classic satyr. Basically, what he is arguing here is that even though he is not able to provide us with the definitive proof that human behaviors are derived from free will, it simply must be that way because, hey, come on, that is the only manner in which to justify his own take on blame and victims and Desperate Degenerates.

And, yes, human interactions that lead to rape are embedded in the complex intertwining of genes and memes. But his own superior will to power has enabled him to grasp every single instance in which genes trump memes and his own take on gender and sexuality in the real deal free will world must be your own or...

satyr wrote:blah blah blah


...take a wild guess.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Determinism

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Sat May 08, 2021 7:27 pm

He is a bit of a retard...a paranoid zealot kook using debunked and convoluted psychoanalysis to terrorise people and crucify them in his own head...a bit of a creep kook...like yourself...
the only person guilty of rape is the rapist...irrelevant of free-will...you are guilty of what you do, not of why you do it...you want to persecute and lockdown people for what they might think or feel???the Canadian kooks justice is no justice but a barbaric tooth and claw savagery where you are guilty of what you get caught committing and the savage evil criminals are salvaged and put next to their victims who should have fought harder to defend themselves and optimally locked themselves up in their houses like a paranoid kook does. in the kooks mind being weaker is a sort of a crime you commit when you get overpowered by a superior by definition criminal who is praying on you...he is fantasizing about a system where his bizarre version of evolution is incorporated into the system and you basically get punished for being weaker, somebody should rape his mother when she was walking her dog...the bitch deserved it...what is she doing outside her locked up house with such a tiny dog??? she should have gotten a bigger dog and a bodyguard...now the bitch is laying in the bushes bleeding from her nose and her vagina...as guilty as the rapist...the kook is both stoupid and arrogant... :-? :-? :-? he wants to say something coherent but his insane retard brain can only blurt incoherent stupidities he then dresses in seeming self-evident prose and repeats ad nuseum.
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: Determinism

Postby Meno_ » Sat May 08, 2021 7:43 pm

Too late Polish, from the days of the solidrarity are way over, back then one could get an inch but take a mile.
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Re: Determinism

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Sat May 08, 2021 7:51 pm

what? :-? A man might want to rape a woman because he might be horny...is he guilty of that?, or of actually raping her because of it? the motive in the background is a part of what decides the type of crime committed but it itself is not a crime. and the only one guilty is the criminal...obviously...is a man who has his expensive car stolen guilty because he bought an expensive car?are people living in large houses guilty of being robbed? should they live in small houses instead??? :-? :-? :-? this kooks is off his rocker. he makes up nonsensical shit to get back at people he dislikes in his head.
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: Determinism

Postby Meno_ » Sat May 08, 2021 8:50 pm

polishyouthgotipbanned wrote:what? :-? A man might want to rape a woman because he might be horny...is he guilty of that?, or of actually raping her because of it? the motive in the background is a part of what decides the type of crime committed but it itself is not a crime. and the only one guilty is the criminal...obviously...is a man who has his expensive car stolen guilty because he bought an expensive car?are people living in large houses guilty of being robbed? should they live in small houses instead??? :-? :-? :-? this kooks is off his rocker. he makes up nonsensical shit to get back at people he dislikes in his head.





Polish Youth says:

" motive in the background is a part of what decides the type of crime committed but it itself is not a crime. and the only one guilty is the"


meno_ says :


True, part of it but not all of it. The part that incites sheeple to react is .motivated by the very signals that fire them up. All those aforementioned should, no must know better.

It should be made into law, but then again it has, excepting the same afore mentioned.


At this point meno_ takes deep bow among hefty applause from which he immediately withdraws.
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Re: Determinism

Postby iambiguous » Sun May 09, 2021 12:36 am

satyr wrote:Denial of any degree of free-will simply evokes the idea of the Deus ex Machina, code for, what appears to be acting is not really what is acting because there is an invisible actor animating it.


Quite the contrary of course. It is the advocates of free will who are forced to create this wholly inexplicable entity -- "me" -- in the brain.

After all, the human brain is but the culmination of mindless matter going all the way back to whenever matter first came into existence.

How then are we to explain, to encompass human consciousness as something other than matter created from the laws of nature itself.

Instead, those like Satyr are left with nothing more than this: "It just happened, that's why".

At least the religious folks have God.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Determinism

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Sun May 09, 2021 12:46 am

Just because everything is matter does not mean there is no God. I don't see any contradiction here. A soul does not have to be magical nor does God have to be magical and esoteric...a god might as well be an agent in the physical world...This is old stuff...you Yanks are regressing to the times of Hume and Leibniz and Newton and the whole universe as a machine argument...on what basis can you claim that matter somehow excludes the existence of a God like agent in the universe...where do you have this knowledge from??? you or the kook SATIRE??? I'd like to know which science has provided you with such certainty to be able to exclude the possibility of a God like agent in the universe or explain free-will when we barely understand the basic operations of our brains...both you kooks talk about free will as if its a done and dusted topic thats as self evident as grass growing on pavements...what are your accreditations???you two should really stop...two grown ass men making a circus out of themselves...a Greek-Canadian expert who can bearly put a coherent and grammatically correct sentence together in English and a kook who has spend years studying dasein yet can't define what the term means...time to grow up.
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: Determinism

Postby Sculptor » Sun May 09, 2021 11:47 pm

polishyouthgotipbanned wrote:Just because everything is matter does not mean there is no God. I don't see any contradiction here..


Thomas Hobbes would agree, but if there is a god, then he would have to be tangible like matter.
So, one thing Hobbes did not say, which I ask; where is god?
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Re: Determinism

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Mon May 10, 2021 12:18 am

God is not somewhere...just like the universe is not somewhere and you cant catch a flight there...the reasons for a naturalistic God are such:
if we assume that the world is a causative machine then we must address:
1. universe as a paradox for a human cognition as it must either be infinite or have an end beyond which there is nothing, clearly both are nonsensical but nobody can propose a third solution
2. we broke into an atom and found something even smaller and we might continue to do so indefinitely or at least assume it is possible to do so until we find a way to exhaust the depth of the matter
3. be able to exhaust the explanation of the origin of everything
no machine that is conceivable to human cognition presents the above characteristics, as in unexplainable depth and width so we must speculate and we can speculate about a possibility of some kind of designer intelligence or some other mechanism of action and if we can and want to speculate about an explanatory designer and universalist intelligence then we must attribute to it logic since reason must have logic so we can reasonably assume that a designer and universalist God would operate on some quasi-human, superior type of logic so a universal God in the naturalist sense is a potential explanation for the depth and width of the universe; so God would be a type of a being with a type of intelligence and potential which would allow it to solve for these paradoxes and understand, unlike us, what it means to create something out of nothing, what is either nothing or indefinite something(and how to cause and maintain it) and be able to operate completely present in all as in both the width processes as in the depth processes and things. The argument for God stems from the evident proof of our limited scope due to our mammalian brains in a form of paradoxes we can construe, know to be both valid and nonsensical and yet be unable to resolve them nor prove them nonsensical so it is reasonable to assume we might be missing something and this is where the real science ends and real philosophy enters. A type of theoretical being or a similar process or something.
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: Determinism

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Mon May 10, 2021 12:25 am

Something makes me seriously doubt you ever red Hobbes or if you did, if your little peanut brain managed to put it all together if you are asking idiotic questions like that which Hume and the familia addressed at several books length. If you want to know how everything started, you can always visit SHITthyself...SATIRE smeared the Christians with the supposed anti-nature, anti-reality absolute thing and in his idiocy and arrogance did not think the whole thing through and eventually realized that absolute is neither idiotic nor nihilistic so he felt compelled to prove it so and he has an almost certain theory of the origin and mechanism of everything. :-? :-? :-? :-? apparently, if you are a kook and say chaos and dynamism and throw few ancient Greek words and names around it all makes sense...i did not try...
Last edited by polishyouthgotipbanned on Mon May 10, 2021 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: Determinism

Postby encode_decode » Mon May 10, 2021 12:29 am

polishyouthgotipbanned wrote:God is not somewhere...just like the universe is not somewhere and you cant catch a flight there...the reasons for a naturalistic God are such:
if we assume that the world is a causative machine then we must address:
1. universe as a paradox for a human cognition as it must either be infinite or have an end beyond which there is nothing, clearly both are nonsensical but nobody can propose a third solution
2. we broke into an atom and found something even smaller and we might continue to do so indefinitely or at least assume it is possible to do so until we find a way to exhaust the depth of the matter
3. be able to exhaust the explanation of the origin of everything
no machine that is conceivable to human cognition presents the above characteristics, as in unexplainable depth and width so we must speculate and we can speculate about a possibility of some kind of designer intelligence or some other mechanism of action and if we can and want to speculate about an explanatory designer and universalist intelligence then we must attribute to it logic since reason must have logic so we can reasonably assume that a designer and universalist God would operate on some quasi-human, superior type of logic so a universal God in the naturalist sense is a potential explanation for the depth and width of the universe; so God would be a type of a being with a type of intelligence and potential which would allow it to solve for these paradoxes and understand, unlike us, what it means to create something out of nothing, what is either nothing or indefinite something(and how to cause and maintain it) and be able to operate completely present in all as in both the width processes as in the depth processes and things. The argument for God stems from the evident proof of our limited scope due to our mammalian brains in a form of paradoxes we can construe, know to be both valid and nonsensical and yet be unable to resolve them nor prove them nonsensical so it is reasonable to assume we might be missing something and this is where the real science ends and real philosophy enters. A type of theoretical being or a similar process or something.

Nice PY, we will make a spooky kook out of you yet.

:lol:
I will build a nerdlike structure in 2021
I only meant that the cat knows - or discovers - that we can toss it out a window at any time = "authority". Dogs accept that notion more quickly - not as willing to test it. O:) - obsrvr524
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Re: Determinism

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Mon May 10, 2021 12:37 am

I am already a kook bro...afterall, I was in the SHITthyself little virgin cult for few good years...and I even managed to somehow become a Polish neo-nazi...despite multiple family members butchered savagely and my grandfather put into an orphanage after the Nazis ran his father down in the concentration camp because he was a principal of a school in Ukraine or my great-grandmother having her front teeth knocked out by an SS-man for being 'suspect' because of the neighbors' underground activity. so I might be the biggest kook here, now I see the bullshit in all of it but you have to be a bit off to even believe in all of it in the first place.... :-? :-? :-? what saved me is that I am not a Canadian and I can speak a language other than English so I have had access to the less littered and chaotic side of the internet and the fact that I always want to hear the opposing views and take them seriously to see if what I read and believe is worth fuck all...this is how I found out that lying neo-nazi kook David Irving is full of shit...I simply red the historians he critiqued and their critiques of him compared to his defence of himself.
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: Determinism

Postby iambiguous » Mon May 10, 2021 6:26 pm

peacegirl wrote:
He obviously can’t help himself. That doesn’t make his derailing of this thread any less disturbing, nor does it excuse his behavior! In the world we live in, getting someone banned may be the best option.


iambiguous wrote: Again, this is what I struggle to grasp about her own understanding of free will.

As I understand a determined universe, he literally could not help himself. In fact, all 98 pages of this thread merely reflects the only possible reality.

And, as I understand free will, polishyouth's brain has somehow evolved into matter of an entirely different order. Like yours and mine. It is matter that really is able to opt autonomously to post one point of view rather than another.


peacegirl wrote: Definition is playing games with you again. “To opt autonomously to post” (without force) is not synonymous with opting with free will.


Again, how is the way we define things any less inherently embedded in the only possible world? There's nature compelling us to "define" things as we do, the human brain capable of defining things autonomously or how you "define" things from your own wholly unintelligible [to me] free will/no free will intellectual contraption.

iambiguous wrote: And, then, given new experiences, new relationships and access to new information, knowledge and ideas he is able to opt freely to change his mind.


peacegirl wrote: Being able to contemplate gives the illusion of opting freely but that would mean one can opt to choose other than what one chooses. IOW, one could have chosen otherwise. Impossible.


Yes, I "know". That's what I keep "trying" to "explain" to you.

iambiguous wrote: Whereas in peacegirl's free will/no free will agglomerated brain/mind above, even though he can't help himself, some of us are still justified in being disturbed by what he posts; and that getting him banned is the best option. Even though it would seem that we couldn't help ourselves here either


peacegirl wrote: Very true.


Note to others:

You tell me!!!!

iambiguous wrote: Makes no sense to me other than by accepting the fact that nature is just not ready to enlighten me. But that would imply a teleological component in nature. And how on earth can we wrap our minds around that...even though it would only be as nature compelled us.


peacegirl wrote: You don’t have to make this whole thing sound mysterious Iambiguous. Nature is not separate from you, which goes back to your confused definition of determinism.


Okay, let's move on to this:

Given the author's assessment of all this in the book, what's his take on teleology? What would he ascribe to purpose and meaning in the lives of those who have utterly no free will.

And is he still around "out there" somewhere embodying it?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Determinism

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Mon May 10, 2021 7:00 pm

lol what a kook :-? :-? :-?
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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