Determinism

This is the main board for discussing philosophy - formal, informal and in between.

Re: Determinism

Postby encode_decode » Wed May 12, 2021 9:21 am

I did make a post, one post back.

Meno_ wrote:Course I should hope it would generate some credit toward some transfer into something, or somewhere, not that i'd want to.

Now of course there are other equally plausible explanations.

We could go on like this forever. I am of course happy not to want to either...

Transfer via social activity? Humanity is like a team in that we are all in this together.

=;

Russian dolls, dominoes, dice, and whatever else we want to pile on top to confuse things even more. Hip hip hooray!
I will build a nerdlike structure in 2021
I only meant that the cat knows - or discovers - that we can toss it out a window at any time = "authority". Dogs accept that notion more quickly - not as willing to test it. O:) - obsrvr524
User avatar
encode_decode
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:07 pm
Location: Nebula

Re: Determinism

Postby encode_decode » Wed May 12, 2021 9:51 am

peacegirl wrote:I don’t know why it’s so hard for people to read three chapters. It’s actually very interesting. I think you’ll get something out of it.

I don't know if we will ever be able to know. This may be the last frontier - the last of humanity's unsolved mysteries about existence. Seriously though, some people just don't have the time. Keep in mind that what is interesting to you may not be interesting to others. I get something out of nearly everything that I read. But for me peacegirl, it goes something like this...I have a family that I want to spend time with every day, I have to go to work each day, there are household chores that need to be done and a whole bunch of other stuff that occupies my life including a little time for entertainment and keeping up with what is going on in the world and also a bunch of books already on my reading list. Yep life is pretty busy and ILP gets a little bit of my time but most conversations here do not require a huge amount of effort to take part in - a lot of my posts are done while I am at work - I work in front of a computer nearly every day and am able to post on different forums and social networks in between tests of what I am working on and experiments that I am working on that require no interaction. At the end of the day, it is nice to spend time away from the technology that I use the most. Barbeques, beaches, mountains, and forests...so much to do.

And there are times that I take long breaks from a lot of social platforms, be they forums or any other format.

I am pretty sure I will be able to get around to reading the three chapters of the book though, even if I still have no real idea of what I am getting into.
I only really have your word for it being a good book - maybe someone else who has read it will be kind enough to go into here on ILP.

I will also have to trust that the link you provide does not lead to some malware being installed on one of my computers via some fancy malicious redirect.
I will build a nerdlike structure in 2021
I only meant that the cat knows - or discovers - that we can toss it out a window at any time = "authority". Dogs accept that notion more quickly - not as willing to test it. O:) - obsrvr524
User avatar
encode_decode
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:07 pm
Location: Nebula

Re: Determinism

Postby peacegirl » Wed May 12, 2021 12:04 pm

encode_decode wrote:
peacegirl wrote:I don’t know why it’s so hard for people to read three chapters. It’s actually very interesting. I think you’ll get something out of it.

I don't know if we will ever be able to know. This may be the last frontier - the last of humanity's unsolved mysteries about existence. Seriously though, some people just don't have the time. Keep in mind that what is interesting to you may not be interesting to others. I get something out of nearly everything that I read. But for me peacegirl, it goes something like this...I have a family that I want to spend time with every day, I have to go to work each day, there are household chores that need to be done and a whole bunch of other stuff that occupies my life including a little time for entertainment and keeping up with what is going on in the world and also a bunch of books already on my reading list. Yep life is pretty busy and ILP gets a little bit of my time but most conversations here do not require a huge amount of effort to take part in - a lot of my posts are done while I am at work - I work in front of a computer nearly every day and am able to post on different forums and social networks in between tests of what I am working on and experiments that I am working on that require no interaction. At the end of the day, it is nice to spend time away from the technology that I use the most. Barbeques, beaches, mountains, and forests...so much to do.

And there are times that I take long breaks from a lot of social platforms, be they forums or any other format.

I am pretty sure I will be able to get around to reading the three chapters of the book though, even if I still have no real idea of what I am getting into.
I only really have your word for it being a good book - maybe someone else who has read it will be kind enough to go into here on ILP.

I will also have to trust that the link you provide does not lead to some malware being installed on one of my computers via some fancy malicious redirect.


Thanks for sharing. You certainly have a well rounded life which is healthy. But I want to emphasize that this is a discovery not just any book. That’s why I’m so passionate about sharing it in the hope that people will want to spread the word. I can’t reach anyone in the field (like Sam Harris) who could put his stamp of approval on it and get more people to study it. I know you don’t know me from Adam but you can trust me. You don’t even have to download the chapters onto your computer. Just read it online. The only thing I ask is that you don’t jump ahead. Read each chapter in the order it was written.
http://www.declineandfallofallevil.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Decline-and-Fall-of-All-Evil-10-18-2020-FIRST-3-CHAPTERS.pdf

Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested: that is, some books are to be read only in parts, others to be read, but not curiously, and some few to be read wholly, and with diligence and attention.
Francis Bacon (1561-1626)

“Just look at us. Everything is backwards, everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health,
lawyers destroy justice, psychiatrists destroy minds, scientists destroy truth, major media destroys
information, religions destroy spirituality and governments destroy freedom.” – Michael Ellner



peacegirl
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1779
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:44 pm

Re: Determinism

Postby encode_decode » Wed May 12, 2021 12:13 pm

peacegirl wrote:Thanks for sharing. You certainly have a well rounded life which is healthy. But I want to emphasize that this is a discovery not just any book. That’s why I’m so passionate about sharing it in the hope that people will want to spread the word. I can’t reach anyone in the field (like Sam Harris) who could put his stamp of approval on it and get more people to study it. I know you don’t know me from Adam but you can trust me. You don’t even have to download the chapters onto your computer. Just read it online. The only thing I ask is that you don’t jump ahead. Read each chapter in the order it was written.

Sam Harris? As in four horsemen fame?

Surely people that work in similar fields are not too hard to access. I know the "field" I work in is even smaller than his "field" and it has close to one thousand people from around the world.
I will build a nerdlike structure in 2021
I only meant that the cat knows - or discovers - that we can toss it out a window at any time = "authority". Dogs accept that notion more quickly - not as willing to test it. O:) - obsrvr524
User avatar
encode_decode
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:07 pm
Location: Nebula

Re: Determinism

Postby peacegirl » Wed May 12, 2021 2:22 pm

encode_decode wrote:
peacegirl wrote:Thanks for sharing. You certainly have a well rounded life which is healthy. But I want to emphasize that this is a discovery not just any book. That’s why I’m so passionate about sharing it in the hope that people will want to spread the word. I can’t reach anyone in the field (like Sam Harris) who could put his stamp of approval on it and get more people to study it. I know you don’t know me from Adam but you can trust me. You don’t even have to download the chapters onto your computer. Just read it online. The only thing I ask is that you don’t jump ahead. Read each chapter in the order it was written.

Sam Harris? As in four horsemen fame?

Surely people that work in similar fields are not too hard to access. I know the "field" I work in is even smaller than his "field" and it has close to one thousand people from around the world.


The well known philosophers are impossible to get in touch with. It’s like a treasure is right next to them but they don’t know it’s there.
http://www.declineandfallofallevil.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Decline-and-Fall-of-All-Evil-10-18-2020-FIRST-3-CHAPTERS.pdf

Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested: that is, some books are to be read only in parts, others to be read, but not curiously, and some few to be read wholly, and with diligence and attention.
Francis Bacon (1561-1626)

“Just look at us. Everything is backwards, everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health,
lawyers destroy justice, psychiatrists destroy minds, scientists destroy truth, major media destroys
information, religions destroy spirituality and governments destroy freedom.” – Michael Ellner



peacegirl
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1779
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:44 pm

Re: Determinism

Postby Meno_ » Wed May 12, 2021 3:19 pm

Sorry guys. Even unknown philosophers at times are hard to understand notwithstanding.

My reasons for being here ade manyfold but #1 is that I love philosophy and philosophers.

The others follow, ....... And I like Russian dolls, too and enrollment to social places particularily, and I say this with all honesty, I like to like those who do the same without regret.
Meno_
breathless
 
Posts: 9056
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: Determinism

Postby iambiguous » Wed May 12, 2021 3:42 pm

encode_decode wrote:Forgive me for not making the following flow to absolute perfection - right now I do not feel like being a pre-programmed high logic robot or an otherwise brainwashed twit. As you also know, I like to get a little experimental with humor at times and it should be obvious after knowing me for a while that I do not delude myself with the notion that any such humor is fully received - only partially, hahaha.

Still, you should be able to partially derive something here - I am still thinking about Russian dolls too...

...but for now, let us just let the dominos fall or throw the dice or see whatever else we can pile on top of this...

:evilfun:

Meno, you and others here have given me a lot. Some people here are not even aware of what they have given to others. Some people might give others a headache or something to treasure for the rest of their lives. People might get great enjoyment from music too but people can survive a long time without music. It is a really empty thing for me to say that spending time on ILP doesn't mean a whole lot - I could also say that being alive doesn't mean a whole lot(we have both come across people here that say it or allude to it). To some people being on ILP does mean a whole lot - I have been reading a conversation between two people here that shows me that these two people are getting a great deal out of it - which is to say that using ILP for their conversation does mean a whole lot - I get a lot out of their conversation just by the simple act of reading it. We could illustrate this for a long time with many examples and not just apply it to ILP but many areas of life but let's not do that. There are things that mean more to us than other things - my family means more to me than the internet or books for instance.

Meno_ wrote:I've been observing partial derivations since being 'enrolled' here. If that is not foundation enough, ...

I am not going to tell you that being enrolled here doesn't mean a whole lot. Whatever reason you have for coming here Meno is a reason attached to you alone that is intentionally diffused to others as you see fit(I had to say it, lol). Perhaps you have got a lot of meaning from this place - we could only know this if you were to share it with us - there is no requirement for you to share anything with us. I am glad I am not on this planet alone. I don't have to know why I socialize to know that I socialize and it feels like it means something - on the other hand, I do know why we socialize, lol. I get the feeling that a narrow exploration provides an unhealthy explanation(I am hopeful this is not genetically derived) and this should make sense to you by the end of this post if you are indeed capable of such magical wonders as social cues and detecting nuances(more forms of derivation) - but I can not guarantee it given the sender and receiver are not always synchronized in such cases(or should I say never given different net results?).

This is something FC wrote in recent times:

Fixed Cross wrote:Too much to go into it, but one thing that is crucially wrong is to hold yourself to the same standards as others - because this means you hold others by the same standards as yourself, which means, if you've got integrity, that you make demands on them that are not yours to make.

Simple ethics: examine your values by exposing them to each other in life and bring them into accord with each other; work to eliminate contradictions in your valuing. Become monadic, so you can be a pillar to a merciful culture.

You don't have to agree with the man on everything to get something out of this. You don't have to like him to get something out of this. The only condition that is to be met to get something out of this is not to be shut off to others. Of course, this makes sense just like Newton's laws make sense but the best thing is that FC said it and I was able to read it. This meant a lot to me.

The universe is a weird and wonderful place Meno. We all come here for different reasons. The internet is a weird and wonderful place and we all do different things with it.

If we may remind ourselves of the idiom: weird and wonderful < to provide some partial context
  1. adjective - Having an unusual or strange appearance or design, but ingenious, attractive, or desirable nonetheless.
  2. noun - That which has such a strange likability.

This whole post is not meant to be some sort of proof of anything - I intend on this post being a human exchange to which anyone, can if they wish to disagree with it...and through their answer, the rest of us may even learn something. After all, this is one of the reasons I come here, to chat. I can not chat with all of my loved ones about just anything which for the most part includes nearly all of what I discuss here - that is the beauty of places like this. I am enrolled in a bunch of different places and I like to think that furthermore, I am enrolled in life. We don't have to know everything to be happy and we don't have to understand how the whole universe works for us to live. Before all we know, the act of seeking meaning is why we believe that there must be a meaning to life in the first place. If I want to shut my brain off to others, there are many choices in the world for that too - I could become a Jehovah's Witness for example, and simply follow their doctrine. I am exploring life and places like ILP have helped with that exploration and added much meaning. I have now come to the end of this intended exchange and I am just as sure now as I was when I started writing it that I am not really going to be telling you anything new in this post - a mere reinforcement of what we probably already partially know.

:wink:

Oh yes - I am hopeful that some of what I write is genetically derived in some families and some of what others write is not genetically derived in other families.
Of course, I am partially hinting at memetics but mostly at genetics.

:lol:

Partial derivation complete...


Note to nature:

Huh?!!

If I'm compelled to ask you myself.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 41693
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: hanging out with godot

Re: Determinism

Postby encode_decode » Wed May 12, 2021 3:47 pm

iambiguous wrote:Note to nature:

Huh?!!

If I'm compelled to ask you myself.

There was a couple of inside jokes in it. Nothing to be concerned about. I have been thrown into the world just like everyone else.
I will build a nerdlike structure in 2021
I only meant that the cat knows - or discovers - that we can toss it out a window at any time = "authority". Dogs accept that notion more quickly - not as willing to test it. O:) - obsrvr524
User avatar
encode_decode
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:07 pm
Location: Nebula

Re: Determinism

Postby iambiguous » Wed May 12, 2021 4:09 pm

encode_decode wrote:
iambiguous wrote:Note to nature:

Huh?!!

If I'm compelled to ask you myself.

There was a couple of inside jokes in it. Nothing to be concerned about. I have been thrown into the world just like everyone else.


Yes, but this thread concerns itself more with grappling with who -- God? -- or what -- nature? -- threw us into it.

Then the part where once we're thrown, we grapple further with pinning down whether, among other things, the exchanges on this thread themselves are only ever as they could have been. In the only possible reality given a wholly determined universe as I am either compelled or opt freely to speculate about it myself.

Inside jokes themselves would seem to be no exception.

Then the part where, compelled or not, we go all the way out to the very end of the metaphysical limb and grapple with all of this ontologically and teleologically.

It's just that to the chagrin of those like peacegirl, I suggest this must go all the way back to the complete understanding of existence itself.

But this in particular discourages some because it begins to dawn on them just how utterly futile this task actually is. Like me, compelled or not, they pursue it only because they can't "will", will or peacegirl's "will" themselves not to.

And then, I ask myself, how could that frame of mind not be rooted in dasein?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 41693
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: hanging out with godot

Re: Determinism

Postby peacegirl » Wed May 12, 2021 4:23 pm

iambiguous wrote:
encode_decode wrote:
iambiguous wrote:Note to nature:

Huh?!!

If I'm compelled to ask you myself.

There was a couple of inside jokes in it. Nothing to be concerned about. I have been thrown into the world just like everyone else.


Yes, but this thread concerns itself more with grappling with who -- God? -- or what -- nature? -- threw us into it.

Then the part where once we're thrown, we grapple further with pinning down whether, among other things, the exchanges on this thread themselves are only ever as they could have been. In the only possible reality given a wholly determined universe as I am either compelled or opt freely to speculate about it myself.

Inside jokes themselves would seem to be no exception.

Then the part where, compelled or not, we go all the way out to the very end of the metaphysical limb and grapple with all of this ontologically and teleologically.

It's just that to the chagrin of those like peacegirl, I suggest this must go all the way back to the complete understanding of existence itself.

But this in particular discourages some because it begins to dawn on them just how utterly futile this task actually is. Like me, compelled or not, they pursue it only because they can't "will", will or peacegirl's "will" themselves not to.

Peacegirl: They can’t will not to (that’s not up to them because what they prefer is beyond their control). If, based on many variables, they prefer to learn more, great. They either will or they will not desire to pursue this knowledge. It’s all under the auspices of what gives them greater satisfaction which is a one way street, hence NO FREE WILL AT ALL! It just doesn’t exist. That’s good news! Cheer up!!!

Iambiguous: And then, I ask myself, how could that frame of mind not be rooted in dasein?


It’s rooted in each person’s heredity and environment.
Last edited by peacegirl on Wed May 12, 2021 4:44 pm, edited 5 times in total.
http://www.declineandfallofallevil.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Decline-and-Fall-of-All-Evil-10-18-2020-FIRST-3-CHAPTERS.pdf

Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested: that is, some books are to be read only in parts, others to be read, but not curiously, and some few to be read wholly, and with diligence and attention.
Francis Bacon (1561-1626)

“Just look at us. Everything is backwards, everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health,
lawyers destroy justice, psychiatrists destroy minds, scientists destroy truth, major media destroys
information, religions destroy spirituality and governments destroy freedom.” – Michael Ellner



peacegirl
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1779
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:44 pm

Re: Determinism

Postby iambiguous » Wed May 12, 2021 4:38 pm

satyr wrote:Victim psychosis is herd psychology = they are not chosen by a divinity but the universe has willed their suffering, and they must endure it.
But most don't just endure it but bitch about it...also determined by the universe.


See what he does? Here or there, he completely avoids addressing the points that I raised above -- in or out of dreams -- and just goes right on assuming that his own conclusions about victims and God and the universe are the only ones that all the others in his own masters class are obligated to preach in turn.

And, again, the sheer irony embedded in all of this!!

He loves to go on and on about "herd mentality". And yet he demands that others must think exactly like he does about free will in his very own KT clique/claque. And if they don't? Well, compelled or not, he sentences them to the dungeon. And, even there, he "disappears" entire threads.

So, how is KT not then itself just another herd?! They become the "one of us" masters and those who are "one of them" become the "desperate degenerate" slaves.

In other words, just another sad, pathetic rendition of the Ayn Randroid Syndrome.

And yet here I am having thought myself into believing that he was never able not to be other than what he could only ever be in the only possible reality.

In other words, as with polishyouth, he's off the hook too!!!

Note to nature:

Compelled or not, explain yourself!!!
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 41693
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: hanging out with godot

Re: Determinism

Postby Meno_ » Wed May 12, 2021 5:13 pm

Of course I can partially derive it after some thought but it will have to be a play, of words or even a play within a play kind of like a rarely staged Tiny Alice, rather than a less structured wait, as for godot.

This partiality broadens an impartial characterization?
May be.
Meno_
breathless
 
Posts: 9056
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: Determinism

Postby encode_decode » Wed May 12, 2021 5:23 pm

peacegirl wrote:It’s rooted in each person’s heredity and environment.

Yes, right up to the point where I think how differently my father and son are to me and wonder whether their environment may have had something to do with this and furthermore how relevant this is to my being. We have some unresolved entities here but before I think, I have to be - I also have to occasionally check that I am not falling into the traps that others unintentionally/intentionally lay down for me. Whether others are intentional or not is not the point here because within the next few seconds whatever I have just considered is gone to give way to that which comes next. What is important is what is now.

The question of god or nature...hmm...

What threw me into this?

Then, of course, there is the problem of our language...the biggest roadblock in this discussion...and...there are infinitely different ways to think about things...
I will build a nerdlike structure in 2021
I only meant that the cat knows - or discovers - that we can toss it out a window at any time = "authority". Dogs accept that notion more quickly - not as willing to test it. O:) - obsrvr524
User avatar
encode_decode
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:07 pm
Location: Nebula

Re: Determinism

Postby encode_decode » Wed May 12, 2021 5:35 pm

Meno_ wrote:Of course I can partially derive it after some thought but it will have to be a play, of words or even a play within a play kind of like a rarely staged Tiny Alice, rather than a less structured wait, as for godot.

This partiality broadens an impartial characterization?
May be.

Well, it sounds good to me. Right now, at least.
I will build a nerdlike structure in 2021
I only meant that the cat knows - or discovers - that we can toss it out a window at any time = "authority". Dogs accept that notion more quickly - not as willing to test it. O:) - obsrvr524
User avatar
encode_decode
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:07 pm
Location: Nebula

Re: Determinism

Postby peacegirl » Wed May 12, 2021 6:10 pm

encode_decode wrote:
peacegirl wrote:It’s rooted in each person’s heredity and environment.

Yes, right up to the point where I think how differently my father and son are to me and wonder whether their environment may have had something to do with this and furthermore how relevant this is to my being. We have some unresolved entities here but before I think, I have to be - I also have to occasionally check that I am not falling into the traps that others unintentionally/intentionally lay down for me. Whether others are intentional or not is not the point here because within the next few seconds whatever I have just considered is gone to give way to that which comes next. What is important is what is now.

The question of god or nature...hmm...

What threw me into this?

Then, of course, there is the problem of our language...the biggest roadblock in this discussion...and...there are infinitely different ways to think about things...


Language is important because clear communication is dependent on the words being used. That’s why defining terms is so important. The truth I’m sharing is an invariable law. There is no other way to think about the fact that 1+1=2.
http://www.declineandfallofallevil.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Decline-and-Fall-of-All-Evil-10-18-2020-FIRST-3-CHAPTERS.pdf

Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested: that is, some books are to be read only in parts, others to be read, but not curiously, and some few to be read wholly, and with diligence and attention.
Francis Bacon (1561-1626)

“Just look at us. Everything is backwards, everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health,
lawyers destroy justice, psychiatrists destroy minds, scientists destroy truth, major media destroys
information, religions destroy spirituality and governments destroy freedom.” – Michael Ellner



peacegirl
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1779
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:44 pm

Re: Determinism

Postby encode_decode » Wed May 12, 2021 6:29 pm

peacegirl wrote:Language is important because clear communication is dependent on the words being used. That’s why defining terms is so important. The truth I’m sharing is an invariable law. There is no other way to think about the fact that 1+1=2.

Language is important. Definitions are useful especially when we consider how often we all fumble with the use of language.
Part of the problem is inherent to how our language is built - how it is structured - in its grammar, however, I will leave this for another discussion in some other thread or instance in my life.

I was referring to what some perceive as Heidegger's problem with language.

This perception if used the right way(whatever this means) can intelligently show that we are not masters of language.
Of course, this whole idea can also illuminate much more than this(again if used the right way).
I will build a nerdlike structure in 2021
I only meant that the cat knows - or discovers - that we can toss it out a window at any time = "authority". Dogs accept that notion more quickly - not as willing to test it. O:) - obsrvr524
User avatar
encode_decode
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:07 pm
Location: Nebula

Re: Determinism

Postby encode_decode » Wed May 12, 2021 8:54 pm

iambiguous wrote:Yes, but this thread concerns itself more with grappling with who -- God? -- or what -- nature? -- threw us into it.

How does it concern itself with these two possibilities?

The problem I have with this comes down to first proving that there is anything outside the mind - if there is then how do I access that without some kind of faith?

:-k

I am genuinely interested. I personally have some kind of faith but no real way to prove anything without relying on this faith.

This or I am simply dreaming, at times sleeping inside this dream, and in turn, dreaming inside this sleep < hence my reference to Russian dolls.
I will build a nerdlike structure in 2021
I only meant that the cat knows - or discovers - that we can toss it out a window at any time = "authority". Dogs accept that notion more quickly - not as willing to test it. O:) - obsrvr524
User avatar
encode_decode
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:07 pm
Location: Nebula

Re: Determinism

Postby iambiguous » Wed May 12, 2021 9:40 pm

iambiguous wrote:Yes, but this thread concerns itself more with grappling with who -- God? -- or what -- nature? -- threw us into it.


encode_decode wrote: How does it concern itself with these two possibilities?


Well, if a God/the God does in fact exist and He is as most of the faithful believe Him to be, both omniscient and omnipotent, it must be explained how, in turn, the faithful insist that this God can be reconciled with human autonomy.

On the other hand, if He does in fact exist at least that creates a transcending font that mere mortals can turn to in order to resolve the quandary once and for all.

With a No God nature, however, things would seem to become inherently more problematic. Nature "throws" us into existence, but only [to the best of my current knowledge] at the tail end of biological evolution on planet Earth. And how do we go about assessing nature's capacity here to reconfigure mindless matter into mindful matter? Is there a point, a thing, a place in the universe we can go too as the faithful go to God? Where is the argument backed up with evidence that pins down how this happened? Instead, as with those like Satyr, many will just be obliged to shrug and insist, "Free will? It just happened, that's why".

encode_decode wrote: The problem I have with this comes down to first proving that there is anything outside the mind - if there is then how do I access that without some kind of faith?


Indeed, how is this possible without an existential leap to one or another conclusion that you or another "thought up" in your head/their head? Unless, of course, someone has in fact solved this vexing quandary going back to the pre-Socratics. And how are they any less than us embedded in that gap between what any particular individual thinks he or she knows about questions this big and the biggest question of them all: how do we explain the existence of existence itself.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 41693
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: hanging out with godot

Re: Determinism

Postby Meno_ » Thu May 13, 2021 2:15 am

encode_decode wrote:
Meno_ wrote:Of course I can partially derive it after some thought but it will have to be a play, of words or even a play within a play kind of like a rarely staged Tiny Alice, rather than a less structured wait, as for godot.

This partiality broadens an impartial characterization?
May be.

Well, it sounds good to me. Right now, at least.



The Russian doll , in the version of Tiny Alice is likened to the reductive phenomenology.

I try to connect that to the innermost reductive phenomenological smallness with the near limitlessly small doll, that is covarient to the most general concept-phenomenon, like the phenomenally thinking dog.

That is representative of the certainty we are all waiting for, like Godot is.

Now the other concept of the Einsteinian premise , vis. that combines an evolutionarily natural objective that needs a necessarily coincidental perception to realize it's self, and You see the necessity of creation arriving from thought as an ideal , integral construction to exostence as a product of that developed consciousness.

That trajectory follows a sequential ontological parrallel, so consciousness can be said to be logically object oriented

That that object has been an anthropological course, shows that the alpha has an ideational, identificational origin toward the omega of a constantly rechanneled interconnective change.

It does not mean that objective can not differently configure and as such transform into smaller , and less identifiable aspects of reality.( existence)

The smaller and consequently denser this configuration, the less appearent freedom for it 's (existance) with the conclusion that the atomic and subatomic substrata become necessarily singular entities, motionless, timeless, and in It' s self being


God is absolutely constrained to choose only that which is motionless, up a level it may very slightly move by vibration, but it is pure Parmenedis, a pure and absolute yet hidden thinking being.

To exist is to perceive,( and to be perceived); to think is to be.

The conscious essence in between are the essential and ceaseless movements, which forever move from the elemental to the most evolved, and back, eternally



This to me is utter certainty.
Last edited by Meno_ on Thu May 13, 2021 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Meno_
breathless
 
Posts: 9056
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: Determinism

Postby Meno_ » Thu May 13, 2021 3:02 am

Meno_ wrote:
encode_decode wrote:
Meno_ wrote:Of course I can partially derive it after some thought but it will have to be a play, of words or even a play within a play kind of like a rarely staged Tiny Alice, rather than a less structured wait, as for godot.

This partiality broadens an impartial characterization?
May be.

Well, it sounds good to me. Right now, at least.



The Russian ll, in the version of Tiny Alice is likened to the reductive phenomenology.

I try to connect that to the innermost reductive phenomenological smallness with the near limitlessly small doll, that is covarient to the most general concept-phenomenon, like the phenomenally thinking dog.

That is representative of the certainty we are all waiting for, like Godot is.

Now the other concept of the Einsteinian premise , vis. that combines an evolutionarily natural objective that needs a necessarily coincidental perception to realize it's self, and You see the necessity of creation arriving from thought as an ideal , integral construction to exostence as a product of that developed consciousness.

That trajectory follows a sequential ontological parrallel, so consciousness can be said to be logically object oriented

That that object has been an anthropological course, shows that the alpha has an ideational, identificational origin toward the omega of a constantly rechanneled interconnective change.

It does not mean that objective can not differently configure and as such transform into smaller , and less identifiable aspects of reality.( existence)

The smaller and consequently denser this configuration, the less appearent freedom for it 's (existance) with the conclusion that the atomic and subatomic substrata become necessarily singular entities, motionless, timeless, and in It' s self being


God is absolutely constrained to choose only that which is motionless, up a level it may very slightly move by vibration, but it is pure Parmenedis, a pure and absolute yet hidden thinking being.

To exist is to perceive,( and to be perceived); to think is to be.

The conscious essence in between are the essential and ceaseless movements, which forever move from the elemental to the most evolved, and back, eternally



This to me is utter certainty.
of 'God's certainty of Being.


To give You an illustration of what is meant here,
Kerouac alludes to his experience when climbing Desolation Peak , he says, " You can't fall of the mountain'. Nietzche elludes to this geeling, when he intimates that how would it be when in the next life and the next, You'l l experience the exact reality to a T?

I have also experienced th OS feeling, which agrees with the idea that free will is mostly a cognitive paradox.

Now the way I recreate this state of mind, may not be literally comprehensible, but some things in life, such as these, are 'proven' incomprehensible fof lack of credible proof.
Meno_
breathless
 
Posts: 9056
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: Determinism

Postby encode_decode » Thu May 13, 2021 3:04 pm

There is a lot to be had through adding up every interaction you have ever had and thinking for five seconds what you may have missed without such interactions - but only worth five seconds of your time maybe a couple of times in each of our lives. Networks of people work stuff out at an astonishing rate for so many reasons that we have no time for now. This adds up to constant change with only some cycles appearing persistent. I can not begin such a conversation without traversing some sort of thought spectrum that contains inconsistencies and contradictions - no perceived progress would be made without removing such inconveniences and following a more narrow field/spectrum of thought. This narrow pathway could lead off in the wrong direction. Then again all roads may lead to Rome - but who knows?

iambiguous wrote:With a No God nature, however, things would seem to become inherently more problematic. Nature "throws" us into existence, but only [to the best of my current knowledge] at the tail end of biological evolution on planet Earth. And how do we go about assessing nature's capacity here to reconfigure mindless matter into mindful matter? Is there a point, a thing, a place in the universe we can go too as the faithful go to God? Where is the argument backed up with evidence that pins down how this happened? Instead, as with those like Satyr, many will just be obliged to shrug and insist, "Free will? It just happened, that's why".

I am going to be self-centered about this rather than humane. Comparing God to Nature is not helpful. If there is a god then this should help explain nature. We know more about nature than god so I would be inclined to start with nature and work my way out from there. This is of course following a scientific thinking bias. I follow this line of thought because a lot of god stories appear to be mostly that - stories. This does not mean there is not a god, just that the god people do not explain it well. I am not one for having any appreciation of fancy party tricks of logic, so this won't do for me either - only useful logic for me and how do we know what logic we need to use to solve such a conundrum. Mathematics also appears to be able to invent things that are not really there either. So if there are things that I am missing it is because my mind and others are not sufficient to be able to piece everything necessary for an adequate explanation. Ego-centric people who would get some self-satisfaction by jumping in and ripping my words to pieces do not have the goods to prove anything either - I know this right this minute because that has been my experience up until now - they are full of more hot air than proof.

Thinking bias is problematic and a lot of it can be removed but still not enough right now to make any satisfactory progress - neither you nor I would be happy with today's outcome even if bias is removed. Currently, there is not enough information or not enough acceptance for what information there is. It is easier to uncover flaws in thinking than it is to prove any of this God and Nature, or, God or Nature business. Perhaps our methods and languages have been flawed enough throughout our history to ever help us solve certain questions - not excluding mathematics. So close yet so far perhaps. We should not give up necessarily but we may have to accept certain things within our lifetimes. I am an expert with some things and otherwise comfort myself with childish notions for other things - then there is all the stuff in between. Right now, some things are still out of reach.

iambiguous wrote:Indeed, how is this possible without an existential leap to one or another conclusion that you or another "thought up" in your head/their head? Unless, of course, someone has in fact solved this vexing quandary going back to the pre-Socratics. And how are they any less than us embedded in that gap between what any particular individual thinks he or she knows about questions this big and the biggest question of them all: how do we explain the existence of existence itself.

Leap of faith? Jumping out of the mind to look around seems like it will always be problematic to me. Plenty of things are going on according to my mind and I don't dismiss that everything I have come to "believe" is just some weird dream. The dream may only be analogous to what is actually happening - perhaps I am in some simulation - in which case my silly brain is all too ready to contemplate the reality of whoever is running that simulation and it may not even be a whoever. All this before I even get to determinism - determinism itself is reliant on some conditions that may, or may not, have been met. Sorry if you read this and think, what on earth is he talking about - but this, according to my mind(if there is such a thing).
I will build a nerdlike structure in 2021
I only meant that the cat knows - or discovers - that we can toss it out a window at any time = "authority". Dogs accept that notion more quickly - not as willing to test it. O:) - obsrvr524
User avatar
encode_decode
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:07 pm
Location: Nebula

Re: Determinism

Postby Meno_ » Thu May 13, 2021 3:25 pm

People of the immemorial past who talked as You do were living symbols of the sceptic tradition.

Every day, some have to get up from their slumbers and reorganize themself to find the faith and courage to live.

How does that work, are any of us capable to do that and invent ourselves without the tradition which may look at the positive series of events behind us of countless generations which may certainly have bogged down without some reason to carry on?

Is cosmic love not axiomatic with the primal love for our offspring, for whom we can not sacrafice them for the sake of our passions?

God anthropomorphised man , so he can realize what real passion is, and what it should be if men do not yet know it.

That is what God is, and not the old man upstairs trying to touch man's finger with his own , as Leonardo so well represented.
Last edited by Meno_ on Thu May 13, 2021 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Meno_
breathless
 
Posts: 9056
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: Determinism

Postby encode_decode » Thu May 13, 2021 3:30 pm

Meno_ wrote:People of the immemorial past who talked as You do were living symbols of the septic tradition.

Every day, some have to get up from their slumbers and reorganize themself to find the faith and courage to live.

How does that work, are any of us capable to do that and invent ourselves without the ser tradition which may look at the positive series of events behind us of countless generations which may certainly have bogged down without some reason to carry on?

Is cosmic love not axiomatic with the primal love fir our offspring, for whom we can not sacrafice them for the sake of our passions?

God amthrophised man , so he can realize what real passion is, and whaf it should be if mem do not yet know it.

That is what God is, and mot the old man upstairs trying to touch man's finger with his, S Leonardo so well represented.

Septic? Stay calm man.

This is on a different level to the everyday.
I will build a nerdlike structure in 2021
I only meant that the cat knows - or discovers - that we can toss it out a window at any time = "authority". Dogs accept that notion more quickly - not as willing to test it. O:) - obsrvr524
User avatar
encode_decode
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:07 pm
Location: Nebula

Re: Determinism

Postby Meno_ » Thu May 13, 2021 3:40 pm

Meaning? What's the difference and how can You reintegrate apart from slight mistakes of routing along the way?

In fact very slight discrepencies may add up and cause You to land in unfamiliar territory, and I don't mean the kind of mistaken reading of the written word,

There are levels which are incimprihensible but they neverthe less exist, even if, yet. Unfamiliar

Something about familiarity breeding a loss A con-tempt of something which exists because of proximity and untested relational expectations , which have not been realized as of yet.


It's interesting how contempt and contemplate are relational topically.


Just saying, not that it may mean any more then an optical illusion.



Here is how one person analized this 'illusion';



"Contemplation on Contempt





Or, rather, on its relation to detachment.

After a long while of observations and various experiences, I believe that the most common (and probably the easiest) way to become detached is to induce contempt in oneself.

Did your friend just say something you don’t agree with? — Remember their favorite music genre? Absolutely not your cup of tea, people with these trashy tastes don’t deserve your attention.

Did someone close just hurt you? — Gosh, remember that annoying habit they have, remember how they pick their nose or throw their socks around? How foul.

Do you just need a reason to reject someone because you don’t want to waste your time trying to understand them? — They’re so disorganized, and that is really beneath a civilized human being, such as yourself.

And everything is suddenly so easy on you.

Here, have a gold star, you just totally freed yourself from the shackles of attachment. Oftentimes, it’s as simple as that, especially if this thinking persists over a relatively long period of time.

Arguably, the process of detachment can go much faster if you have a bunch of friends convincing you something in the other person deserves contempt. Which… may or may not have to do with the famous bandwagon effect.

At first, I thought this simple insight deserved a full-scale article, but I quickly realized people have been writing about it in different words for a while now. I’m leaving it here as a bunch of notes.

I personally believe being contemptuous and unaware of it is quite dangerous and truly unkind, even though conscious contempt comes in handy against undesired emotional connections."


Just I thought i'd add it, in case of a re-view.
Last edited by Meno_ on Thu May 13, 2021 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Meno_
breathless
 
Posts: 9056
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: Determinism

Postby encode_decode » Thu May 13, 2021 3:48 pm

Skepticism is a topic of interest in philosophy for good reason. Very useful when we concern ourselves with knowledge.

If someone comes at me with determinism as the solution to all of our problems they had better be ready to prove it.

Determinism on the other hand is a simple tool for different domains that does have its uses.

Philosophy does not just concern itself with how to live right - it concerns itself with pushing us forward to make the best decisions.

Knowledge is a big part of this.
I will build a nerdlike structure in 2021
I only meant that the cat knows - or discovers - that we can toss it out a window at any time = "authority". Dogs accept that notion more quickly - not as willing to test it. O:) - obsrvr524
User avatar
encode_decode
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:07 pm
Location: Nebula

PreviousNext

Return to Philosophy



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users