War!

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War!

Postby Youngman18 » Sat Aug 03, 2002 5:28 am

Would you serve your country in times of war? Would you kill for the sake of the cause, to win the war.

Would you die for your country?

Im very undecided...My mind is boggling ..ughh it hurts

Hopefully, were never thrown into a situation like WWII where infantry is selected by a draft or what have you.

I dont want to be a draftee thrown into military service for several reasons. I think War is senseless. I think killing is wrong.

On a side note, missles and nukes have progressed and have replaced many men on foott. But still, I wouldnt want to be the guy pushing the red button. No sir.

Will we ever be conformed world?
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Postby locke_key » Sun Aug 04, 2002 5:04 am

conformed? ha, we cant agree of the simplest of subjects...

this is a very huge subject. i have met many christians who have said that the crusades were truly noble! i guess it is in our nature to mutilate our brethren.

Would you serve your country in times of war? Would you kill for the sake of the cause, to win the war.


that really depends if you share the same beliefs (at a general level) as your country does. it is a very hard decsision indeed. on one hand you may be killing innocent people tthat are forced to fight, or you may let your own people die in there hands, possibly leading to the destruction of your culture and societal norms as you know it...

missles and nukes were designed soley to destroy the men on foot, they just make that process easier. needless to say, there will always be the man on foot, whether it be thiers or ours.
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Postby Youngman18 » Mon Aug 05, 2002 12:15 am

With talk of war in Iraq again, I find my self asking why?

I understand Saddam is a huge threat with weapons ranging to mass destruction. I think this whole fiasco is terrible. More people are bound to die. When will it all stop? :roll:
"Only a life lived for others is a life worth while ."

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Postby BluTGI » Mon Aug 05, 2002 3:37 am

Would i die for my country the United states of america no, I will die for those who died before me in war and kept the country from being taken over by a worser of evils.

Would i kill for my country? Perhaps only because it doesnt really matter. If i dont kill for my country if they tell me to, they will put me in a prison where i will probably have to kill to defend myself.

Would i serve my country? Define surve. Work as a employee of USA Yes. Be part of the system yes. Be part of the military Maybe.
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Postby Youngman18 » Mon Aug 05, 2002 3:44 am

Serve: as in represent your country in times of War...would you stand up for the cause?

More importantly, Would you put your life on the line, for something you believed in... ???
We were asked this question at college this year. Its a tuffy.
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Postby maimed » Mon Aug 05, 2002 4:58 pm

when my country/government asks me to give my life so that it can continue to exist it stops being my government it is now an entity of its own, concerned only with protecting itself. A govenrment should serve the people, if it needs to kill its people to serve its people it no longer works and the people should try something new.

If my country ever tried to draft me into a war I would go to war against my country
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Postby BluTGI » Mon Aug 05, 2002 5:24 pm

Thats just it goverments are entitys of their own. All of them are. None of them are pure democracy, and all of them will put themselves behind their own civilians. Thats why civilians Will and Must die for war to be waged. There are no international laws to protect civilians(from themeselves or their country)
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Postby locke_key » Mon Aug 05, 2002 7:47 pm

If my country ever tried to draft me into a war I would go to war against my country

would you help destroy your own society, just because someone imposed on your will?

in the U.S. we abide by the geneva convention (supposedly). that does protect 'everyones' rights. there are some very strict international laws on what countries can do to thier civilians, but that doesn't mean that the whole world is willing to abide by them.

a country must be democratic only enough for it to survive. otherwise, it would be very difficult to maintain 'peace.'
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Postby anonomous and lovin it » Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:52 pm

I believe that war is the most senseless thing a man could do. Would you go to war if you knew that if you did, and you had a 50/50 chance of surviving, it would cause the end of all wars, but only if you killed for the cause. Mmmm.....try figure that one out.

Secondly, I know that in many countries it is a crime to go to war against your country. Now is that an infrigement on your human rights or what? It's just a pile of fucking bollox. You've got to go with the flow or face the consequences. Wars shouldn't be between countries if they must exist but merely between people of the same opinion that are willing to fight to defend their beliefs. Imagine there's no countries,religion....nothing to kill or die for.....A great ideal.....but a boring life if you ask me....we couldn't have this conversation now could we? My brain hurts. Am I evil now, being against war but wanting there to be tension for my own amusement ??
eh...who?
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Postby ben » Sun Aug 25, 2002 4:04 am

Holding an Israeli Passport requires me to do 3 years service in the Israeli army. Living in the UK makes me immune from it unless I go to Israel (I am going in 6 days). In order to get out of army service I have a letter from the Israeli embassy explaining that I live abroad etc.

I choose not to do the service for a few reasons. Firstly, I am a pacifist, I do not wish to kill anyone and it's probably high up on the requirements of army soldiers. Even if I am not in the front-line I do not wish to aid people to kill others. Technically, that makes me a coward and fair enough, I can handle those meaningless labels. Sadly, war is a reality in this day and age and therefore armies are necessary for a country's survival, especially Israel. However, war IS NOT necessary and I refuse to accept war as a "fact of life" or "inevitable". A country has every right to defend itself against attack but don't ask me to join in, because I know there is another way.

In the same way that a situation in the playground is never solved by a fight but rather by reasoned discussion. People will try and convince us that war is different and that some things can't be solved with discussion. Like Victor Meldrew, I don't believe it. When people don't get their point of view across, they get frustrated and get to a point where they say "bugger this for a game of soldiers, let's send in the marines". I'm side-tracking to another topic here...

My other reason for not doing service is for more selfish reasons. I value my life and doing army service raises my mortality probability significantly. It's not something I wish to die for and so I prefer to steer well clear. I would not fight for any country, not because I don't believe in what they country is doing, but because I believe war is futile. If everyone thought like me, there'd be no war at all. Beautiful eh?
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Postby Polemarchus » Sun Aug 25, 2002 2:42 pm

Ben,

My brother-in-law faced a similar dilemma some years ago when he returned to Italy for medical school. It took quite a bit of wrangling for him to stay out of uniform. Of course the Italian Army is a different world than the IDF (I'm sure you've heard the joke about Italian tanks having one forward and three reverse gears).

I suspect you'll feel a good deal of pressure to change your mind once your feet are on the ground in Israel. However, I'd ask you to keep Bertrand Russell's WW1 experience in mind. No, try not to think of his imprisonment, think instead of how he held on to his humanitarian convictions while his countrymen labeled him a traitor.

There is a British saying, "Many are thought brave who were simply too afraid to run away." Unfortunately, a hundred thousand courageous young Tommies chose to run through a storm of bullets for every brave man who chose to stand his ground against that war. Russell himself commented that it takes more courage and discipline to maintain one's pacifism than it does to kill out of fear.

At the end of WW1 there were some 25 thousand miles of trenches dug across northern Europe and 9 million lay dead. Sir Fabian Ware calculated that if the 921 thousand British and Empire dead were to parade abreast down Whitehall, the parade would last three and a half days.

With the (admitted) luxury of hindsight, we may ask; what did these brave lads exchange their lives for? What did their ultimate sacrifice bring to the world? The first thing we're told today about WW1 is that it was the war that never should have been. A complex network of alliances turned a local tragedy into an international conflagration. As it turned out, the brave young men who ended up gassed or with a bullet through their brow were only setting the stage for far greater horrors to come.

It's sickening that these young men were called upon to kill each other out of a perverse sense of nationalism. If they had died in a "war to end all wars" then we might come to accept the heroic exchange of their lives for an everlasting peace. But that's not what happened. The fact that these men marched dutifully forward to kill each other instead of courageously refusing to kill, only brought a greater calamity to the world; The Second World War, or more accurately, World War One; Part Two, is estimated to have claimed from 35 to 60 million victims. By all rights these men, women, and children should join Fabian Ware's parade-of-corpses down Whitehall Street.

Philosophy can take pride in such men as Russell and Schweitzer. These men understood that it matters a great deal how we act in this world, and it's of critical importance that we think before we act. These great men lived their philosophy. Russell was called a coward and a traitor. I suspect you might have to endure similar characterizations. Ben, your steadfast conviction might require courage, but far more important than the possession of courage itself, is the proper choice of what to be courageous about. We wish for example, that the Nazis had not fought so courageously. The same goes for the Palestinian suicide bombers. If only men were not so courageously willing to sacrifice their lives for immoral beliefs! The courage to do evil is no virtue.

None of us can be certain that our daily decisions are the correct ones. Kierkegaard's well-known statement, "Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards," says as much. I would like to draw your attention to an article which appeared in the 22nd of July issue of The Atlantic Monthly. This article is a brutally honest assessment of the life and times of Mahatma Gandhi. The issues facing Colonial India were no less complex than those which face Israel today. Even saintly men such as Gandhi were forced to compromise and live with doubt; how much moreso for we; mere mortals. You may read this article at:

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/22jul/candler.htm

Thinking men make decisions they believe they can live with. Long after the voices of those that either criticize or praise you have died away, the one voice that you cannot ignore will remain.

"For love of domination we must substitute equality;
for love of victory we must substitute justice;
for brutality we must substitute intelligence;
for competition we must substitute cooperation.
We must learn to think of the human race as one family."
Bertrand Russell

Ben, to my mind your stand is one based on compassion and reason. I believe what you are doing is correct and that your courage is well placed. Your actions are an inspiration.

I wish you all the best,
Michael
"Deux excès. Exclure la raison, n'admettre que la raison" -- Pascal, Pensées
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Postby Kurt Weber » Sun Aug 25, 2002 6:23 pm

Ben: In your playground analogy, you appear to be stating that violent solutions are irrational--something I wholly agree with. This means, then, that anyone who chooses to initiate violence to solve a disagreement is irrational, correct? If someone is irrational, how can he be reasoned with? Thus, it is only the initial act of violence that is irrational--defensive violence is wholly rational, because it is IRRATIONAL to attempt to reason with someone who has shown himself to be irrational.
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