Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby Dan~ » Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:40 am

Flannel Jesus wrote:Just a one-day ban for ol Sculptor. There's got to be a reasonable ceiling to how toxic we can allow people to be here, and continuing to call people 'morons' after a direct warning is past that ceiling.

I see... I've seen people say much worse insults than calling someone a moron.
Maybe I'm too lenient?
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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby Historyboy » Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:46 am

Maybe anonymous internet is coming to an end. I came here to find understanding and so I offer in return understanding in an objective way, always with arguments. The persons taking part in this topic bring only insinuations which is in itself an offense and a waste of time.
People never assume someone wants to achieve something but like little insecure children they discuss "who one is". Creativity 0.
Life is will to power. - Nietzsche; Culture is and gives power and strength - Vollgraff; The only attribute of the mind is that he is powerful. - Aristotle; Mind is dragging us into the future and the heart into the present. - Aristotle; Those who can foresee deeds are born to rule and those who need to do them are born as slaves. - Aristotle; So, what is an aristocrat? He needs to be powerful, that means to be excellent in foreseeing things! - Me; The highest honor belongs to that one who is able to predict the moves of the enemy commander. - Machiavelli; If you want that what you have inherited to possess, you need to deserve it. - Goethe; Culture, which means exactly learning to calculate, learning to think causally, learning to prevent, learning to believe in necessity. - Nietzsche. [Autumn 1887, 10 [21]]; Morals in the narrow sense is the belief that the deeds of the ancestors will be transferred to the descendants. - Nietzsche
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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby Dan~ » Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:54 am

Your freedom comes from how much you can live without.
Animals are much more free than humans.
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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby Flannel Jesus » Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:01 am

Dan~ wrote:
Flannel Jesus wrote:Just a one-day ban for ol Sculptor. There's got to be a reasonable ceiling to how toxic we can allow people to be here, and continuing to call people 'morons' after a direct warning is past that ceiling.

I see... I've seen people say much worse insults than calling someone a moron.
Maybe I'm too lenient?

https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=175550

Section 2.1 and 3 show I'm within the bounds of the established rules there. You don't HAVE to moderate every insult, and I don't either.

There was some completely unnecessary behaviour directed towards me in some other threads, but I feel first of all that disagreements are inherently a bit contentious, so I can accept a bit of "are you too stupid to understand?" directed at me without any moderator action, and I also don't want to moderate simply because an insult is directed at me in particular, without giving other people the same benefit of that moderation - I don't want to protect myself above others, I don't think that would be fair.

His comments were reported by someone else, so that brings it up to the level of worth considering moderator action for me.

I don't want him to be gone forever, i just want him to chill out a bit.
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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby Historyboy » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:28 pm

Science has proven that the most self-confident people, and thus the most persistent ones, are the smartest and the dumbest. My IQ score tells me I don't have to defend myself.
Nietzsche states socialists are the dumbest. You get the rest.
Life is will to power. - Nietzsche; Culture is and gives power and strength - Vollgraff; The only attribute of the mind is that he is powerful. - Aristotle; Mind is dragging us into the future and the heart into the present. - Aristotle; Those who can foresee deeds are born to rule and those who need to do them are born as slaves. - Aristotle; So, what is an aristocrat? He needs to be powerful, that means to be excellent in foreseeing things! - Me; The highest honor belongs to that one who is able to predict the moves of the enemy commander. - Machiavelli; If you want that what you have inherited to possess, you need to deserve it. - Goethe; Culture, which means exactly learning to calculate, learning to think causally, learning to prevent, learning to believe in necessity. - Nietzsche. [Autumn 1887, 10 [21]]; Morals in the narrow sense is the belief that the deeds of the ancestors will be transferred to the descendants. - Nietzsche
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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby pood » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:38 pm

Kropotkin has got Nietzsche right. Historyboy ... not so much. :|
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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby Historyboy » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:42 pm

He probably doesn't even know german. :shock:

3 persistent vs 1 argumented.
Life is will to power. - Nietzsche; Culture is and gives power and strength - Vollgraff; The only attribute of the mind is that he is powerful. - Aristotle; Mind is dragging us into the future and the heart into the present. - Aristotle; Those who can foresee deeds are born to rule and those who need to do them are born as slaves. - Aristotle; So, what is an aristocrat? He needs to be powerful, that means to be excellent in foreseeing things! - Me; The highest honor belongs to that one who is able to predict the moves of the enemy commander. - Machiavelli; If you want that what you have inherited to possess, you need to deserve it. - Goethe; Culture, which means exactly learning to calculate, learning to think causally, learning to prevent, learning to believe in necessity. - Nietzsche. [Autumn 1887, 10 [21]]; Morals in the narrow sense is the belief that the deeds of the ancestors will be transferred to the descendants. - Nietzsche
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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:36 pm

Historyboy wrote:Science has proven that the most self-confident people, and thus the most persistent ones, are the smartest and the dumbest. My IQ score tells me I don't have to defend myself.
Nietzsche states socialists are the dumbest. You get the rest.


K: oh boy.... ummm let us start with... "Science has PROVEN that the most
self-confident people, and thus the most persistent ones, are the
smartest and dumbest."

Science has "proven".... and this comes from ?....and what does the
"most persistent" ones are the smartest and dumbest" that sentence
really doesn't even make sense....is being persistent smart? or is it dumb?
and what does being persistent have to do with intelligence?

next, "my IQ scores tells me I don't have to defend myself"....

"My IQ" ummm... a little defensive are we? only one who is a little insecure would
bring up their "IQ" here... so, who exactly has attacked your IQ? Why does your
IQ need defending? it wasn't an issue in my mind until you brought it up...

Nietzsche states that "socialist" are the dumbest....
well golly, if Nietzsche says so, it must be right... and everything
Nietzsche wrote must be right, right? you have substituted your faith in
the bible, for example, as the "all mighty truth" for Nietzsche being the "all mighty truth"

you are just moving your faith from one thing to another....

as for me, I don't have such faith in Nietzsche or Kant or Hume or
Hegel.......but I don't even engage with them much anymore....
I am working out my truths and my values.... and they are just
road marks along the way....

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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:39 pm

Historyboy: He probably doesn't even know german. :shock:

K: am I right about the multiple uses of the word "uber?" I know enough German to
get by....Is it my native language? nope....

H: 3 persistent vs 1 argumented.

K: I gotta say, this makes no sense of any kind to me...a personal argument of some sort?

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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby Historyboy » Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:25 pm

Callin me moron is attack, and being persistent implies that the other person knows what he talks about, but if no argument arise after 2 days then it is just an empty tralala, as Germans would say.

To the moderators: is trolling punishable? If someone has only sarcasm and can't let other people discuss normally, I may suggest such behavior to be sanctioned.

Keep trolling in your 4 walls.
Life is will to power. - Nietzsche; Culture is and gives power and strength - Vollgraff; The only attribute of the mind is that he is powerful. - Aristotle; Mind is dragging us into the future and the heart into the present. - Aristotle; Those who can foresee deeds are born to rule and those who need to do them are born as slaves. - Aristotle; So, what is an aristocrat? He needs to be powerful, that means to be excellent in foreseeing things! - Me; The highest honor belongs to that one who is able to predict the moves of the enemy commander. - Machiavelli; If you want that what you have inherited to possess, you need to deserve it. - Goethe; Culture, which means exactly learning to calculate, learning to think causally, learning to prevent, learning to believe in necessity. - Nietzsche. [Autumn 1887, 10 [21]]; Morals in the narrow sense is the belief that the deeds of the ancestors will be transferred to the descendants. - Nietzsche
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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:55 pm

Historyboy wrote:Callin me moron is attack, and being persistent implies that the other person knows what he talks about, but if no argument arise after 2 days then it is just an empty tralala, as Germans would say.

To the moderators: is trolling punishable? If someone has only sarcasm and can't let other people discuss normally, I may suggest such behavior to be sanctioned.

Keep trolling in your 4 walls.


K: ummmmm, your "vaunted" intelligence doesn't offer any other advice other
then cry to the moderators about how "badly" you've been treated?.. how sad.....

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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby Sculptor » Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:48 am

Historyboy wrote:He probably doesn't even know german. :shock:

3 persistent vs 1 argumented.


Well I don't know German and you don't know English - so we can call it quits.
Why would I take the trouble to learn a minority language like German, when English is spoken the world over?
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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby Historyboy » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:22 pm

Because truth is not where the cattle eats.
Life is will to power. - Nietzsche; Culture is and gives power and strength - Vollgraff; The only attribute of the mind is that he is powerful. - Aristotle; Mind is dragging us into the future and the heart into the present. - Aristotle; Those who can foresee deeds are born to rule and those who need to do them are born as slaves. - Aristotle; So, what is an aristocrat? He needs to be powerful, that means to be excellent in foreseeing things! - Me; The highest honor belongs to that one who is able to predict the moves of the enemy commander. - Machiavelli; If you want that what you have inherited to possess, you need to deserve it. - Goethe; Culture, which means exactly learning to calculate, learning to think causally, learning to prevent, learning to believe in necessity. - Nietzsche. [Autumn 1887, 10 [21]]; Morals in the narrow sense is the belief that the deeds of the ancestors will be transferred to the descendants. - Nietzsche
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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:16 pm

Historyboy wrote:Because truth is not where the cattle eats.


K: two things, first, you wouldn't know the 'TRUTH' if it came up and bit you,
secondly, you are just another wannabe Nietzschean "ubermensch"......
holding to the delusion that somehow, never actually stated how, but somehow
you are an aristocrat and the rest of us is "cattle"....... so, please share with us
your delusions as to why you are "superior" to us?

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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby Sculptor » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:15 pm

Historyboy wrote:Because truth is not where the cattle eats.


So the truth is not up your Mum!
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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby Sculptor » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:18 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:
Historyboy wrote:Because truth is not where the cattle eats.


K: two things, first, you wouldn't know the 'TRUTH' if it came up and bit you,
secondly, you are just another wannabe Nietzschean "ubermensch"......
holding to the delusion that somehow, never actually stated how, but somehow
you are an aristocrat and the rest of us is "cattle"....... so, please share with us
your delusions as to why you are "superior" to us?

Kropotkin


It's a sure sign of inadequacy to grasp to Nietzsche.
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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby Meno_ » Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:55 am

I don't think I understand him either, but feel that I am always near to. As a matter of fact, most deliberately misunderstand him for fear of the irrational.
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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:40 pm

Dan~

Your freedom comes from how much you can live without.


Shivers. Ah, such profound wise words, Dan.

Sapere Aude!
BE MELTING SNOW. WASH YOURSELF OF YOURSELF.

YOU WANDER FROM ROOM TO ROOM
HUNTING FOR THE DIAMOND NECKLACE
THAT IS ALREADY AROUND YOUR NECK!

DANCE UNTIL YOU SHATTER YOURSELF!

THERE IS A VOICE THAT DOESN'T USE WORDS. LISTEN!

LIFE IS A BALANCE BETWEEN HOLDING ON AND LETTING GO!

LET SILENCE TAKE YOU TO THE CORE OF LIFE!
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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby iambiguous » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:40 am

Arcturus Descending wrote:Dan~

Your freedom comes from how much you can live without.


Shivers. Ah, such profound wise words, Dan.

Sapere Aude!


On the other hand, if you do without some things only because you want them and others prevent you from having them, how free is that? How free were the Jews in Nazi Germany? How free are many women now in Afghanistan?

It's like everything else: we need a context.

And, given any number of contexts, general description intellectual contraptions like that can lose their punch.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:01 pm

Iambiguous,


On the other hand, if you do without some things only because you want them and others prevent you from having them, how free is that? How free were the Jews in Nazi Germany? How free are many women now in Afghanistan?


This is true unless you manage to let go/to detach from those things after coming to realize that they are things which are not important to your happiness. That also can at that point give you a strong sense of freedom.

The Jews were not free in Nazi Germany, neither are many women, men and children in Afghanistan, but at the same time, does "real" freedom, inner freedom, depend on where we are and the kind of a life which we are living. I suppose though that it depends on the kind of individual that someone is.


Your freedom comes from how much you can live without.


Think about those words. How often do we actually deprive ourselves of real freedom, holding onto things which do nothing but soothe our egos (when there is really no soothing there) whether it be material things or things which we believe make us more intelligent, profound, awesome, in the eyes of others - all of those things which only feed the false ego, and in the long run make us feel more imprisoned within our selves, because we are so desperate to prove to others just who we are. So we go on grasping and grasping and grasping and feed the lion instead of the more intelligent lamb. lol

So, freedom really can come from learning how much we can live without and dumping it. We need to learn to be the right kind of nihilists and stoics to.
BE MELTING SNOW. WASH YOURSELF OF YOURSELF.

YOU WANDER FROM ROOM TO ROOM
HUNTING FOR THE DIAMOND NECKLACE
THAT IS ALREADY AROUND YOUR NECK!

DANCE UNTIL YOU SHATTER YOURSELF!

THERE IS A VOICE THAT DOESN'T USE WORDS. LISTEN!

LIFE IS A BALANCE BETWEEN HOLDING ON AND LETTING GO!

LET SILENCE TAKE YOU TO THE CORE OF LIFE!
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Re: Why nobody can understand Nietzsche

Postby iambiguous » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:27 pm

On the other hand, if you do without some things only because you want them and others prevent you from having them, how free is that? How free were the Jews in Nazi Germany? How free are many women now in Afghanistan?


Arcturus Descending wrote:This is true unless you manage to let go/to detach from those things after coming to realize that they are things which are not important to your happiness. That also can at that point give you a strong sense of freedom.


Here, of course, you would have to take each particular thing past Jews and women who are being persecuted. Each, as individuals, is going to be dealing with their own special set of circumstances. Some will find it easier to detach or let go of them than others. And they might let go because there really isn't any other option or [perhaps] the option exist to organize politically with those like themselves and fight back against those who take the things away.

Arcturus Descending wrote: The Jews were not free in Nazi Germany, neither are many women, men and children in Afghanistan, but at the same time, does "real" freedom, inner freedom, depend on where we are and the kind of a life which we are living. I suppose though that it depends on the kind of individual that someone is.


Again, for me, frames of mind like this are rooted subjectively/subjunctively in dasein. I don't think in terms of how reasonable people ought to react to circumstances such as this, but in how each of us comes to react existentially given all that predisposed us in our own unique lives to think and feel one way rather than another.

Then the part where freedom itself gets all tangled up in things like religion and ideology. How, for example, many Palestinians think of those who rule Isreal as no less tyrants and oppressors than Jews thought of the Nazis who ran Germany. Or how many in the Taliban in Afghanistan genuinely believe that it is Western values in regard to women that are truly immoral.

That part where I am considerably more "fractured and fragmented" than the objectivists among us.


Your freedom comes from how much you can live without.


Arcturus Descending wrote:Think about those words. How often do we actually deprive ourselves of real freedom, holding onto things which do nothing but soothe our egos (when there is really no soothing there) whether it be material things or things which we believe make us more intelligent, profound, awesome, in the eyes of others - all of those things which only feed the false ego, and in the long run make us feel more imprisoned within our selves, because we are so desperate to prove to others just who we are. So we go on grasping and grasping and grasping and feed the lion instead of the more intelligent lamb. lol

So, freedom really can come from learning how much we can live without and dumping it. We need to learn to be the right kind of nihilists and stoics to.


Here of course we will need actual contexts in which each of us as individuals can speak of those freedoms which are most important to us. And, to the extent that we can do without the things that do not reflect "real freedom", all the better for us.

But what "for all practical purposes" does that mean for each of us? And what happens when in pursuit of those things that we construe to be embedded in "real freedoms" we come upon those who either object to your own value judgments here...or even attempt to prevent us from pursuing them?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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