Deterministic capitalism

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Deterministic capitalism

Postby Gamer » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:16 am

If we hold that the universe is deterministic and free will is a non-starter, then shouldn’t we be a bit more mindful of the role luck plays in well-being?

And if that’s the case, why do we lack compassion when we see people struggle; why do we blame them for their moral failings, stupidity, or lack of hard work?
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Re: Deterministic capitalism

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:26 am

Gamer wrote:If we hold that the universe is deterministic and free will is a non-starter, then shouldn’t we be a bit more mindful of the role luck plays in well-being?

I think that if the universe is determinate, there is no such thing as luck, right?

Gamer wrote:And if that’s the case, why do we lack compassion when we see people struggle; why do we blame them for their moral failings, stupidity, or lack of hard work?

Don't we treat others in a way we feel will either encourage or discourage behavior? When someone doesn't have a job we tell them to "go get a job". They might not be able to do that, but if they are not willing to try when encouraged - where would the compassion fit in? Feel sorry for them as they die? Or poke them with a stick?
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Re: Deterministic capitalism

Postby iambiguous » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:51 am

Gamer wrote:If we hold that the universe is deterministic and free will is a non-starter, then shouldn’t we be a bit more mindful of the role luck plays in well-being?

And if that’s the case, why do we lack compassion when we see people struggle; why do we blame them for their moral failings, stupidity, or lack of hard work?


Again, this rendition of it!

We hold that, "the universe is deterministic and free will is a non-starter", and then ask if we should be a bit more mindful of luck, as though anything that we are mindful of here is not also embedded inherently, necessarily in a wholly determined universe!!

Look, I'll admit I'm just not thinking this through correctly, but if "I" is derived from a mind that is derived from a brain that is no less matter wholly in sync with the immutable laws of matter, being mindful about anything is only what we were ever able to be mindful of.

Right?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Deterministic capitalism

Postby fuse » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:53 am

obsrvr524 wrote:
Gamer wrote:If we hold that the universe is deterministic and free will is a non-starter, then shouldn’t we be a bit more mindful of the role luck plays in well-being?

I think that if the universe is determinate, there is no such thing as luck, right?

When someone gains an advantage through no control of their own -- inheritance, for example -- it's commonly said to be lucky. If luck is too loaded a term, try 'unearned advantage' in its place.

Gamer wrote:And if that’s the case, why do we lack compassion when we see people struggle; why do we blame them for their moral failings, stupidity, or lack of hard work?

Because the cosmic joke is that there should be a deterministic universe where life thinks itself free.
Or alternatively, because victim blaming avoids the cognitive dissonance of knowing that people struggle through no fault of their own and that we're not as compassionate as we think?
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Re: Deterministic capitalism

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:05 pm

Gamer wrote:If we hold that the universe is deterministic and free will is a non-starter, then shouldn’t we be a bit more mindful of the role luck plays in well-being?

And if that’s the case, why do we lack compassion when we see people struggle; why do we blame them for their moral failings, stupidity, or lack of hard work?

1) very few people are consistant. We have been raised in a mix of paradigms - through media, school, peers, parents, religious organisations and each of these already contains mixed paradigms.
2) someone could say they are themselves determined not to feel sympathy. They can't help it.
3) One could still feel superior, if merely by luck. If I was 6'9" I would likely feel superior to shorter basketball players, at least some of the time, while also at other times realizing it was the luck of the draw. One can have a pride in being. IOW being good can be seen as inherent not something achieved. It's not a moral state, per se, but one could see oneself as simply greater. It would be a fact rather than an achievement.
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Re: Deterministic capitalism

Postby Gamer » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:49 am

I suppose the question isn’t really all that coherent because as iambiguous rightly points out, we don’t seem to have a choice whether or not we blame or credit people with a sort of moral valor for their supposed right or wrong actions. The best we can hope for is that ideas will bounce around and resound loud enough and be taken up such that sentient sapiens are _caused_ to realize that given the lack of free will, we regard others not as agents of moral volition, but rather as vessels of cause and effect. So yes, we should (and, in fact, must) scold, admonish, imprison, and reward, because these consequences have causal value, but physics has it such that I no longer see people worthy of moral credit or blame for anything. I feel more compassionate toward, say, criminals or poor people, and less in admiration of the “virtues” of the so-called winners in society. I didn’t will myself to feel this way, any more than I willed myself to write this. I guess these words I’m typing are just the Universe’s good intentions blowing in the wind looking to take root in your mind and create good ideas that lead to more well-being. Oh well. Carry on I guess.
Last edited by Gamer on Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Deterministic capitalism

Postby Gamer » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:50 am

.
Last edited by Gamer on Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Deterministic capitalism

Postby Gamer » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:50 am

.
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Re: Deterministic capitalism

Postby Gamer » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:57 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Gamer wrote:If we hold that the universe is deterministic and free will is a non-starter, then shouldn’t we be a bit more mindful of the role luck plays in well-being?

And if that’s the case, why do we lack compassion when we see people struggle; why do we blame them for their moral failings, stupidity, or lack of hard work?

1) very few people are consistant. We have been raised in a mix of paradigms - through media, school, peers, parents, religious organisations and each of these already contains mixed paradigms.
2) someone could say they are themselves determined not to feel sympathy. They can't help it.
3) One could still feel superior, if merely by luck. If I was 6'9" I would likely feel superior to shorter basketball players, at least some of the time, while also at other times realizing it was the luck of the draw. One can have a pride in being. IOW being good can be seen as inherent not something achieved. It's not a moral state, per se, but one could see oneself as simply greater. It would be a fact rather than an achievement.


I like this and wouldn’t have a problem if everyone saw these things as facts instead of feeling somehow earned. The haughtiness of the illusion of “earn” and conversely “failure to earn” causes a lot of extra pain in the world.

Certainly in America, at least, where this pain is the wellspring of innovation and striving. I don’t know if I belong in America anymore.
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Re: Deterministic capitalism

Postby encode_decode » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:32 am

Gamer wrote:If we hold that the universe is deterministic and free will is a non-starter, then shouldn’t we be a bit more mindful of the role luck plays in well-being?

And if that’s the case, why do we lack compassion when we see people struggle; why do we blame them for their moral failings, stupidity, or lack of hard work?

Universe is still a complex system best viewed through eyes that have some comprehension of complexity(in this case chaos and determinism) and how this relates to decision making.

It appears that we can make some choices and we should not let ourselves off of the hook when we make bad ones. Luck is a fallacy!

If luck is the case then lack of compassion becomes a hit-and-miss affair - rather than a choice.

It is more likely that people who do not work hard in a capitalistic system are either sick to that system or do not belong in that system.

...or, clearly, the system needs to change...and no matter what system we are talking about - we are governed by idiots...
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