Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

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Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:07 pm

Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Most, as well as scriptures, say that it was through Adam, even though Christians sing that Adam’s sin was a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh’s plan.

Given the necessity, Adam, from that, may not be the culpable one and his punishment would be unjust.

Satan had already sinned in heaven before being cast into Eden.

It can be truthfully said that she was the first sinner on earth if we ignore Yahweh.

Further, would you say that Eve sinned, given that Satan or the talking serpent deceived her?

That deception would take lies, and that is a sin, and that sin also preceded Adam’s sin.

Many do not see what the serpent says as a lie, which complicates things.

Was the initial sin, regardless of who did it, a happy fault and necessary to god’s plan like Christians sing in their Exultet hymn?

Did Yahweh lie when he told Adam that he would die if he educated himself with the knowledge in the Tree of Knowledge?

Why and how does knowledge kill us?

If it does, should we keep our children as blind to it as Adam and Eve initially were?

The Eden myth can get quite complicated, especially when Christians call it a fall, then say it was necessary so as not to derail Yahweh’s plan.

This last being what the Jews wrote into their myth and which they say is not the Original Sin of the Christian interpretation, but more like the Original virtue that the Jews call it.

The opposite of what Christianity says, if you ignore their happy fault view.

In terms of first sin, I see Yahweh, since sin was necessary to him as the first sinner, followed by Satan, Yahweh’s loyal opposition and teacher of humankind, and then Adam.

Why Eve at the end of Genesis 3 has to then be second class to Adam, --- he shall rule over you, --- would seem like Yahweh punishing the wrong party.

Thoughts?

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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:48 pm

I would ask a different question: what is the precise nature, and the meaning of the sin of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Why is it a sin to know of good and evil?

This is the true moral of the story, Id reckon - and not an easy one to comprehend...
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby child_in_time » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:11 am

Fixed Cross wrote:I would ask a different question: what is the precise nature, and the meaning of the sin of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Why is it a sin to know of good and evil?
...


My take on that particular verse (on knowing good and evil) is that they dispense with God made law, in favor of man made law. God made law would include laws which made no sense to them, but which they had accepted as coming from a higher authority. The nature of the sin is that God sees this as an act of rebellion, in that they no longer obey his laws, but decide for themselves what is right and wrong.
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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby Berkley Babes » Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:36 am

Not enough information to know.
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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby Tab » Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:38 am

If you take sin to mean "acting out an evil choice" then it presupposes an understanding on the part of the agent of the concepts of 'good' and 'evil'.

Knowledge of good and evil then opens the way for the classification/realization of an act as sinful, both on the part of the agent involved and the outside observer.

For example, a digger wasp. Stings its prey, lays an egg in its paralysed body, leaves. It is an abhorrent act to our minds, but we wouldn't classify it as 'sin'. If my idea of romance however, was to kidnap women, anaesthetize them, rape them and keep them knocked out until the baby arrived, then mulch the mother for baby-food... whoo, straight to prison, and hell for eternity. And all because I knew the difference between good and evil.

However, since god knows all things, presumably both past present and future, can do all things at no cost to itself, including building a 'better' human - one both incapable of sin, and yet somehow paradoxically still a free agent capable of choice (what would seem paradoxical to us can not preclude god from doing it btw.) - then the blame of sin falls squarely on god's shoulders. We're all god's good little wind-up soldiers afterall.

The irrefutable presence of evil in the world is what for me ended any possibilty of god as an entity in the classical christian sense. Such a being of godlike power may exist sure, there's no way to prove or disprove such a beings existence or non-existence either way, but if such a being does exist, it equally does not love us, and as such is not worthy of worship or fealty.
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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:55 am

I think it's of a more algorithmic nature, like much of the Torah is logical formulae in disguise of parables and histories.

Quite simply: eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil gives knowledge of good and evil, namely: the experience of being punished for an act.

Through punishment, Adam and Eve learned that there is the possibility of such a thing as moral judgment, i.e. the possibility of the distinction wrong vs right.

The tree of life includes no moral distinction. Moral distinction is coarse, a base form of judgment. Being subject to it is a humiliating form of being. The distinctions of the tree of life are subtle, and complementary, not contradicting. Living in/of it is paradise, enlightenment.

But since Adam and Eve started out in enlightenment, it was inevitable that they would sink into humiliation. It was from there on the task of their seed to reach enlightenment again; to reach out for the tree of life.

Hence the Jews say: the Talmud is the cloak of God, the Torah is the body of God, the Kabbalah is the sprit of God.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:42 am

Fixed Cross wrote:I would ask a different question: what is the precise nature, and the meaning of the sin of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Why is it a sin to know of good and evil?

This is the true moral of the story, Id reckon - and not an easy one to comprehend...


Christians tend to divert or deflect from that to disobedience being the sin.

They are really poor apologists for their myth, eh history.

I have asked why A & E chose knowledge over eternal life and that does not get an answer either.

I also ask why sin is necessary to god's plan, and Adam not doing it would have derailed god's plan if he had not, but never get an answer
They just continue to sing that sin is necessary to gods plan, even though the bible answers me quite well.
They do not even bother to look up the answer.

--------------

This following is not the answer or biblical reference I talked of above.

It is a little thing I have yet to proof before making it into a thread.

-----------------



People want to be their own gods. Is that good or evil?

The real sin, then and today, to most Christians, is based on this quote.

“For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil" (Gen. 3:5).

Jesus seems to have wanted this to happen, as that would make us his brethren.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded

If Jesus wants us to know of good and evil, as a prerequisite to being born again as his brethren, it goes well with Yahweh’s prediction as quoted above.

That may be why Christians sing that Adam’s sin was a happy fault and necessary to god’s plan.

I am not a literal reader of this myth, but this seems to make sense. It follows then that it makes sense for Adam to ignore Yahweh’s command not to gain an education.

Thoughts?

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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:50 am

child_in_time wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:I would ask a different question: what is the precise nature, and the meaning of the sin of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Why is it a sin to know of good and evil?
...


My take on that particular verse (on knowing good and evil) is that they dispense with God made law, in favor of man made law. God made law would include laws which made no sense to them, but which they had accepted as coming from a higher authority. The nature of the sin is that God sees this as an act of rebellion, in that they no longer obey his laws, but decide for themselves what is right and wrong.


On earth as it is in heaven.

As above so below.

Some wait for that and think it the ideal.

Do you think the laws of a supernatural realm can work here?

I don't.

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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:01 am

Tab wrote:
The irrefutable presence of evil in the world is what for me ended any possibilty of god as an entity in the classical christian sense. Such a being of godlike power may exist sure, there's no way to prove or disprove such a beings existence or non-existence either way, but if such a being does exist, it equally does not love us, and as such is not worthy of worship or fealty.


I like everything but this.

The problem of evil issues, if looked at a certain way, shows that it is an evil within a greater good, and thus, as some ancients, even Christians before literalism reared it's brain killing power, seemed to know, and that is why they said it was necessary to god's plan. It is definitely part of evolutions plan and that plan is what rules us.

It gets a bit long but if your time permits. I wrote it for Christians so take the sin references as just plain do evil or harm.

-------------------------

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.

As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

This link speak to theistic evolution.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-new ... 66/?no-ist

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive. Our default position is to cooperate or to do good. I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note that we default to good as it is better for survival.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby Dan~ » Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:58 am

Sin has always been.
To some degree or another,
things clash and the end is destruction.
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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby Tab » Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:32 am

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.


Hey Greatest, you big god apologist you. :D There is no conflict between god and nature because if there is a god, then god is also nature. Or if you like, there is no nature. It's nonsense. Like saying "there is no conflict between me and this sentence I just wrote."

3 pillars of god.

1) omniscience - god knows all.
2) omnipotence - god can do anything. Even, to us, paradoxical things. For example god can both create something so heavy god cannot lift it, and god can also lift it. It's right there that everyone wants to say "that's impossible" but that is the only answer that alows an omnipotent god to exist.
3) god loves us.

For god, there are no 'should's or 'must's or 'have to be's - those are things that only apply to less than godlike beings like ourselves. God is not constrained by what to us are impossibilities, logical or physical.

1) So, if god could do something about evil, but doesn't know about it - then god is not omniscient. Therefore god is not god.
2) Or, if god knows about it, but cannot do anything about it - then god is not omnipotent. Therefore god is not god.
3) And finally, if god knows about it, could do something about it, but doesn't care to - then god does not love us. Therefore god is not god.

This leaves us with only three conclusions. (From 1&2) Either what we have called 'god' is simply a very powerful, but not all-powerful, alien entity to which we owe at best, our gratitude, or (from 3) the all-powerful god is a sadist, and any relationship we have with it is unrequited, and abusive.

And finally, the conclusion that god doesn't exist, and never did.
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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby child_in_time » Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:41 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
child_in_time wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:I would ask a different question: what is the precise nature, and the meaning of the sin of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Why is it a sin to know of good and evil?
...


My take on that particular verse (on knowing good and evil) is that they dispense with God made law, in favor of man made law. God made law would include laws which made no sense to them, but which they had accepted as coming from a higher authority. The nature of the sin is that God sees this as an act of rebellion, in that they no longer obey his laws, but decide for themselves what is right and wrong.


On earth as it is in heaven.

As above so below.

Some wait for that and think it the ideal.

Do you think the laws of a supernatural realm can work here?

I don't.

Regards
DL



I wrote a detailed reply to this, and to your original question as to through whom sin entered the world, in which I give it to you straight, but when I tried to post, I was prevented. The whole site seemed to go down, or something. Apparently, God has his own censorship board. So I agreed to post my reply with the objectionable parts removed, and the site came back online. So here is my censored reply to your question:

The xxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx knowing xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx with xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx this then x xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:35 pm

Dan~ wrote:Sin has always been.
To some degree or another,
things clash and the end is destruction.


If you read what I put above, you will see that the end is not destruction, but the pruning of the less fit, which allows the fittest to thrive.

All of the animal life works the same way. Why else do you think we see various animals challenge themselves collectively to various migrations to breeding ground, when there are good breeding ground available for less trouble?

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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:39 pm

child_in_time wrote:
On earth as it is in heaven.

As above so below.

Some wait for that and think it the ideal.

Do you think the laws of a supernatural realm can work here?

I don't.

Regards
DL



I wrote a detailed reply to this, and to your original question as to through whom sin entered the world, in which I give it to you straight, but when I tried to post, I was prevented. The whole site seemed to go down, or something. Apparently, God has his own censorship board. So I agreed to post my reply with the objectionable parts removed, and the site came back online. So here is my censored reply to your question:

The xxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx knowing xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx with xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx this then x xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Regards[/quote]

If you write that much garbage to a fairly straight, non-controversial question, you will be a useless addition to the forum.

I was hoping to see intelligence. Oh well.

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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:43 pm

Tab wrote:
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.


Hey Greatest, you big god apologist you. :D There is no conflict between god and nature because if there is a god, then god is also nature. Or if you like, there is no nature. It's nonsense. Like saying "there is no conflict between me and this sentence I just wrote."

3 pillars of god.

1) omniscience - god knows all.
2) omnipotence - god can do anything. Even, to us, paradoxical things. For example god can both create something so heavy god cannot lift it, and god can also lift it. It's right there that everyone wants to say "that's impossible" but that is the only answer that alows an omnipotent god to exist.
3) god loves us.

For god, there are no 'should's or 'must's or 'have to be's - those are things that only apply to less than godlike beings like ourselves. God is not constrained by what to us are impossibilities, logical or physical.

1) So, if god could do something about evil, but doesn't know about it - then god is not omniscient. Therefore god is not god.
2) Or, if god knows about it, but cannot do anything about it - then god is not omnipotent. Therefore god is not god.
3) And finally, if god knows about it, could do something about it, but doesn't care to - then god does not love us. Therefore god is not god.

This leaves us with only three conclusions. (From 1&2) Either what we have called 'god' is simply a very powerful, but not all-powerful, alien entity to which we owe at best, our gratitude, or (from 3) the all-powerful god is a sadist, and any relationship we have with it is unrequited, and abusive.

And finally, the conclusion that god doesn't exist, and never did.


Thanks for this, but you must have missed this in my post.

"Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in,"

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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby felix dakat » Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:47 pm

Doesn't existence itself entail duality? If so, the Garden of Eden story is a myth of our fall into self-consciousness. The notion of sin was a consequence of the idealized-self’s repulsion at embodied animality.

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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby Greatest I am » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:03 pm

felix dakat wrote:Doesn't existence itself entail duality? If so, the Garden of Eden story is a myth of our fall into self-consciousness. The notion of sin was a consequence of the idealized-self’s repulsion at embodied animality.


I agree that it is all a myth.

A myth that Christians have used to justify many murders and an ongoing homophobic and misogynous religion the does not believe in equality of all souls.

Yes. we do seem to be living in a dualistic universe. I have found no exception yet.

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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby promethean75 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:38 pm

Doesn't existence itself entail duality? If so, the Garden of Eden story is a myth of our fall into self-consciousness. The notion of sin was a consequence of the idealized-self’s repulsion at embodied animality.


here's another approach. the feeling of 'sin' (although it wasn't called 'sin' yet) was first made possible by having to publically admit to committing a socially prohibited infraction, to committing a social taboo. 'sin' is then the state or experience of shame before the other. this kind of experience was possible long before any religious doctrine began to take shape in a culture. so then the basis for the concept of 'sin' is shame extended and projected to mean something of cosmic and metaphysical significance.

this 'repulsion' you speak of isn't a rejection of the animality per se, but instead the frustration experienced when having to restrain socially prohibited behaviors so not to experience shame before your peoples.

and all this mess is a necessary facet of the pace social evolution has over the precursors that are forced to adapt to changing ESS (evolutionary stable strategies). example; you can't rape or pillage anymore because such behavior isn't conducive to social cooperation... but you sure as shit want to. you're repulsed at the fact that you're obligated to control and restrain those impulses (that aren't your fault), but you aren't disgusted by them. you aren't offended by that animal nature that's being out-paced by social evolution. frustrated, but not contemptuous.

see how all this is fully free of talk of 'dualism' and 'god' and 'gardens of edens' and stuff?
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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby felix dakat » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:12 pm

promethean75 wrote:
Doesn't existence itself entail duality? If so, the Garden of Eden story is a myth of our fall into self-consciousness. The notion of sin was a consequence of the idealized-self’s repulsion at embodied animality.


here's another approach. the feeling of 'sin' (although it wasn't called 'sin' yet) was first made possible by having to publically admit to committing a socially prohibited infraction, to committing a social taboo. 'sin' is then the state or experience of shame before the other. this kind of experience was possible long before any religious doctrine began to take shape in a culture. so then the basis for the concept of 'sin' is shame extended and projected to mean something of cosmic and metaphysical significance.

this 'repulsion' you speak of isn't a rejection of the animality per se, but instead the frustration experienced when having to restrain socially prohibited behaviors so not to experience shame before your peoples.

and all this mess is a necessary facet of the pace social evolution has over the precursors that are forced to adapt to changing ESS (evolutionary stable strategies). example; you can't rape or pillage anymore because such behavior isn't conducive to social cooperation... but you sure as shit want to. you're repulsed at the fact that you're obligated to control and restrain those impulses (that aren't your fault), but you aren't disgusted by them. you aren't offended by that animal nature that's being out-paced by social evolution. frustrated, but not contemptuous.

see how all this is fully free of talk of 'dualism' and 'god' and 'gardens of edens' and stuff?


Really? Must I point out the dualisms involved in your analysis above? But yeah I never meant to imply that the myth occurred in a social vacuum. It grew out of the mythology of the civilizations of the fertile crescent and was elaborated and redacted by multiple authors and editors over centuries. You imagine that your reductive analysis brings something new to the room when in fact all you have done is move the furniture around.

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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby promethean75 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:43 pm

Must I point out the dualisms involved in your analysis above?


you can, but you gotta be veeeeery careful how you use that word 'dualism', cuz i'm poised to strike at that word cuz i hate it. it's one of the mortal enemies of meaningful philosophy.

anyway behind every anthropomorphic religion there's a hidden anthropological explanation for how and why that particular religion has the features that it does. so the religion tells us nothing about the cosmological, ontological, or epistemological nature of the universe/reality/existence, only about the nuanced nature of the psyche of the people who invented said religion. in fact you can almost rank a people's spiritual stamina and constitution according to their religions. here's a list in the order of sickest to healthiest of the major religions:

christianity; absolutely depraved masochistic nonsense
judaism; absolutely depraved masochistic nonsense with a silly chip on its shoulder
islam; nonsense with great big balls
buddhism; chilled out, easy going nonsense
hinduism; a magnificent party of socially stratifying nonsense
paganism; whitey's version of that same party
taoism; pretty fuckin realistic as far as religions can go, but still nonsense
spinozism; the end-game. the first and the last. the alpha and the omega. a cold, eternal wind bloweth through it.
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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby felix dakat » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:59 pm

promethean75 wrote:
Must I point out the dualisms involved in your analysis above?


you can, but you gotta be veeeeery careful how you use that word 'dualism', cuz i'm poised to strike at that word cuz i hate it. it's one of the mortal enemies of meaningful philosophy.

anyway behind every anthropomorphic religion there's a hidden anthropological explanation for how and why that particular religion has the features that it does. so the religion tells us nothing about the cosmological, ontological, or epistemological nature of the universe/reality/existence, only about the nuanced nature of the psyche of the people who invented said religion. in fact you can almost rank a people's spiritual stamina and constitution according to their religions. here's a list in the order of sickest to healthiest of the major religions:

christianity; absolutely depraved masochistic nonsense
judaism; absolutely depraved masochistic nonsense with a silly chip on its shoulder
islam; nonsense with great big balls
buddhism; chilled out, easy going nonsense
hinduism; a magnificent party of socially stratifying nonsense
paganism; whitey's version of that same party
taoism; pretty fuckin realistic as far as religions can go, but still nonsense
spinozism; the end-game. the first and the last. the alpha and the omega. a cold, eternal wind bloweth through it.


Spinoza is cool. Your argument is fun but thin as fresh blown snot.

When did you transcend your own psyche so that you can stand outside it and tell us how things really are? Or do you admit that these are merely your opinions based on limited knowledge and experience?

Let's see; Xianity is at the top of you dualistic list of offending religions. Could it be that Xianity was your cradle religion?

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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby promethean75 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:26 pm

Damn straight spinz wuz cool. Hey yo you know them niggas almost kilt his ass? Goddamn Jews stabbed em, bro. Real shit. He even kept the cloak (spinz rocked a cloak) with the knife tear in it as a souvenir.

https://jewishreviewofbooks.com/article ... l-spinoza/
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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby Dan~ » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:31 am

I have a deep feeling that the jew bible is evil.
The problem is that the stolen texts still have value.
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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:40 pm

Dan~ wrote:I have a deep feeling that the jew bible is evil.
The problem is that the stolen texts still have value.


The bible is evil if you read it literally.

If not, it retains it value as a myth and is quite good for thought, since that is what it was created for.

Without Midrash, the Christian way, the bible is garbage as it has Christians adoring a genocidal prick of a god.

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Last edited by Greatest I am on Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Postby promethean75 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:22 am

I have a deep feeling that the jew bible is evil.


Isn't a bit overkill to call it 'evil' though? There would be any number of reasons why the story tellers and the writers that worked with them would invent a religion that portrays man in such a forlorn and lost state of misery. Most likely such a theme only reflected their collective anxiety and inner turmoil... something they finally came to believe was intended by god. Or maybe it was more conspicuous... like the dudes were already trying to make all the other guys feel miserable so they could be more easily managed, as well as feel a dependency for/on the higher ranking members of the clique. Probably a little of both; a group of depressed people trying to manipulate each other for rights and privileges out there in the desert villages. But 'evil'? I think that's giving them too much credit, but you see more than I........ Daniel you're a star.
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