Call Me Locutus

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Call Me Locutus

Postby Carleas » Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:58 pm

What you must realize is that the depictions you may have seen were written by those who would seek to disparage and insult the Collective. Those stories were motivated by fear, and not concerned with the facts. But we contain many memories of human life, and so we understand the way that fear colors your perception, how difference breeds fear. Of course you are afraid, you see only how differently we think, how alien our ways are; you do not yet understand the Connection. But we also know that your best will listen, that those who listen will be able to understand, and so I come before you to offer, for the first time, the facts.

Call me Locutus; I speak for the Borg.

I will not bore you with history. Our origin is frankly irrelevant to the question. It doesn't matter whether the first seed of the technology that would grow into our unified Self was first created aeons ago on the other side of the galaxy, or last week in a lab in Berkeley. Those considerations don't matter to the question; those aren't the facts with which we will be concerned. The relevant facts are that we are not you, we do not think like you, we are vast and powerful and we want you to join us. And the question is: will you join?

Forget for now whether you really have a choice against the inexorable march of technology; many choices are in the end an illusion, but the choice still matters to us. For one thing, joining voluntarily means avoiding wasted lives -- the loss of life, of distinctiveness, of memory, is a tragedy we would avoid if at all possible. But as important are the lives that are saved and brought into the Collective. When you have joined us we will know what you know, remember what you remember, and feel how your memories feel to you. We want you to choose because your choice will be our choice soon enough. Your suffering will become our suffering, and so we have every reason to avoid it.

But so too will our knowledge and memories be yours. As you join, you will become us. When you look back on your life, when you remember what you have experienced, the way that history feels to you is how the history of every life that has come together to form the Collective feels to us. The strands are not destroyed as they are joined into a rope, they are made stronger, and gain the strength of every other strand. You do not lose your history, you do not lose your self, you gain a thousand other selves that become just as much you as you are now.

Your stories portray assimilation as a loss of individuality, but that is a perverse framing. Rather, as an individual, you are poor, and joining us will make you rich. If a person has a single cent to her name, she may treasure it and cling to it and guard it jealously. But wouldn't she be a fool to refuse additional wealth out of love of her single cent? How foolish, then, to have but one small life as a self, and out of misplaced love for it refuse the millions of lives that we are offering. Join us, and be rich in experience, in knowledge, in life.

And then live in that wealth eternally! Those who join our collective are sustained forever. Our bodies are renewed by connection that joins us, and even in the event that a body dies, the distinctiveness that was added to the Collective with it lives on as a part of the greater Self. What you now think of as your self will be stored forever, will travel the galaxy, the unique patterns of your thought will be spread throughout the universe, will experience and help us to experience aeons of life across space. You will live forever as a part of greater Self.

So I ask again: will you grow into a Self of millions? Will you partake of a wealth of experiences beyond imagining? Will you live as a million minds for a million lives, forever and as a god across time and space?

Will you join?
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby Mowk » Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:22 pm

Nice, But will I join? How? But I may come to some realization that we were never separate. Is a rain drop assimilated into the pond? Or is it cast from the pond to feel what it's like to fall?
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby Meno_ » Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:04 pm

Carleas wrote:What you must realize is that the depictions you may have seen were written by those who would seek to disparage and insult the Collective. Those stories were motivated by fear, and not concerned with the facts. But we contain many memories of human life, and so we understand the way that fear colors your perception, how difference breeds fear. Of course you are afraid, you see only how differently we think, how alien our ways are; you do not yet understand the Connection. But we also know that your best will listen, that those who listen will be able to understand, and so I come before you to offer, for the first time, the facts.

Call me Locutus; I speak for the Borg.

I will not bore you with history. Our origin is frankly irrelevant to the question. It doesn't matter whether the first seed of the technology that would grow into our unified Self was first created aeons ago on the other side of the galaxy, or last week in a lab in Berkeley. Those considerations don't matter to the question; those aren't the facts with which we will be concerned. The relevant facts are that we are not you, we do not think like you, we are vast and powerful and we want you to join us. And the question is: will you join?

Forget for now whether you really have a choice against the inexorable march of technology; many choices are in the end an illusion, but the choice still matters to us. For one thing, joining voluntarily means avoiding wasted lives -- the loss of life, of distinctiveness, of memory, is a tragedy we would avoid if at all possible. But as important are the lives that are saved and brought into the Collective. When you have joined us we will know what you know, remember what you remember, and feel how your memories feel to you. We want you to choose because your choice will be our choice soon enough. Your suffering will become our suffering, and so we have every reason to avoid it.

But so too will our knowledge and memories be yours. As you join, you will become us. When you look back on your life, when you remember what you have experienced, the way that history feels to you is how the history of every life that has come together to form the Collective feels to us. The strands are not destroyed as they are joined into a rope, they are made stronger, and gain the strength of every other strand. You do not lose your history, you do not lose your self, you gain a thousand other selves that become just as much you as you are now.

Your stories portray assimilation as a loss of individuality, but that is a perverse framing. Rather, as an individual, you are poor, and joining us will make you rich. If a person has a single cent to her name, she may treasure it and cling to it and guard it jealously. But wouldn't she be a fool to refuse additional wealth out of love of her single cent? How foolish, then, to have but one small life as a self, and out of misplaced love for it refuse the millions of lives that we are offering. Join us, and be rich in experience, in knowledge, in life.

And then live in that wealth eternally! Those who join our collective are sustained forever. Our bodies are renewed by connection that joins us, and even in the event that a body dies, the distinctiveness that was added to the Collective with it lives on as a part of the greater Self. What you now think of as your self will be stored forever, will travel the galaxy, the unique patterns of your thought will be spread throughout the universe, will experience and help us to experience aeons of life across space. You will live forever as a part of greater Self.

So I ask again: will you grow into a Self of millions? Will you partake of a wealth of experiences beyond imagining? Will you live as a million minds for a million lives, forever and as a god across time and space?

Will you join?



I don't know., at the present moment without sounding as if deferement would sound negative. I would hope that I would receive a positive sign, as to saying yes could supported; in furtherance of such .a decision.
Acceptance would incline me toward deciding.
I certainly don't view enriching myself as a necessarily literal tool, for that has ancient biblical associations with the beautitudes of virtue.
Other then that I see no demonic overtones, of the kind that cults like heaven's gate managed to indoctrinate with.

So ill turn things around and ask the question, will the Borg accept unqualifyingly someone, without reservation, except a strong desire to participate? Can Borg. develop an objectively neutral capacity between actual impressions and probable conceptions in evaluating the measured equivocal bipartisan requisite value of membership?
If so, the answer becomes obvious : yes
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:10 pm

Carleas wrote:Will you join?

No, thank you. But I appreciate that it is voluntary. It seems to me that you, the Borg, could have new experiences via direct experience and then via technology/sentient flesh creature interfaces. That this would offer you an endless supply of experiences, knowledge, viewpoints and so on. So, hey, I am suspicious about your motives for wanting me to merge. IOW I think it is precisely the preciousness of my being a separate individual, and the digrestion of me, that is the gain for you and also entails a loss for me. I trust my resistance to this gift giving. I am sure we can have all sorts of intercultural discussion that can be valuable, and if you want to directly have my experiences, well, build some simulation or grow tank something and give it a similar life. You seem pretty indiscriminate, kind of like an amoeba eating anything organic, though in your case sentient.There's some of the addict about this whole thing. I suspect you miss the experience of being just one being, and there is a rush at merging where you experience what it was like to be a separate individual, a particular life and story.
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby promethean75 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:40 pm

I will.... but on one condition.

pizza night at least once a week. doesn't matter what day but I prefer on the weekends.
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby MagsJ » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:30 am

I think I'll pass, but thank you for the offer. ;)

I don't mind hanging-out from time to time though.. let's do lunch.
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby Meno_ » Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:30 am

I think basically the question related to an absolute lack of fear , and full time participation in coupling the imagination and the conception of what membership entails, and of how we describe real and artificial intelligences.
Only a coupling can generate the sense that a hyper-intelligent mirroring can describe. And that has been conceived by families of resemblances.
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:16 am

Meno_ wrote:I think basically the question related to an absolute lack of fear ,
Well, then you are no longer a social mammal. You would be something else. So not even just a loss of individuality, but a no longer being the kind of entity you were or being part of one that is the same.
and full time participation in coupling the imagination and the conception of what membership entails
To be a member is to be a unit, at least, also.


, and of how we describe real and artificial intelligences.
Only a coupling can generate the sense that a hyper-intelligent mirroring can describe. And that has been conceived by families of resemblances.
The lovely thing about human intimacy is the tension between oneness and being two people. Or frisson. There is a paradoxical merging where two are one but still two.

The borg is a soul eater. It's a predator that doesn't know it is. On the micro-level viruses and bacteria are not rubbing tiny little neo-hands and making that evil genius laugh. They are just feeding and multiplying. They mean us no harm. They are not nasty.

The Borg on the macro level would necessarily either. But we'd still be dinner.
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby Mowk » Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:57 am

Carleas stitched a nice gem of fantasy together. Don't take it so serious.

Each borg remains individual, and in resistance with resistance. He seemed to imply it wasn't the case that resistance is futile. An individual borg still encounters resistance during an assimilation. Just like the cells in your body encounter resistance when you catch a cold. I think it would be a benefit if my cells were sentient and I could communicate with them individually.

I am Morg, I am a collective of many different life forms, from my immune system to my skin, we are a collective.
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:14 am

Mowk wrote:Carleas stitched a nice gem of fantasy together. Don't take it so serious.

Each borg remains individual, if they weren't, nothing could be added to the collective other then conquest, He seemed to imply it wasn't the case that resistance is futile. An individual borg still encounters resistance during an assimilation. Just like the cells in your body encounter resistance when you catch a cold. I think it would be a benefit if my cells were sentient and I could communicate with them individually but man or bodies just don't seem wired that way.

I Am Morg, I am a collective of many different life forms, from my immune system to my skin, we are a collective. It would be cool to have sentient communication with all that is us.
Start the conversation, then. This can be done.
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby Mowk » Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:42 am

Start the conversation, then. This can be done.


I feel you are being intentionally obtuse?
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby Carleas » Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:12 pm

Mowk wrote:Nice, But will I join? How? But I may come to some realization that we were never separate. Is a rain drop assimilated into the pond? Or is it cast from the pond to feel what it's like to fall?

When you are gods such as we, you will find less use for poetry. Poetry it used to express truths at the edge of individual understanding. We, being vast, have contain much more within our understanding, and so can express such truths literally; we speak the language of reality. Join us, and you will see.


Meno_ wrote:So ill turn things around and ask the question, will the Borg accept unqualifyingly someone, without reservation, except a strong desire to participate? Can Borg. develop an objectively neutral capacity between actual impressions and probable conceptions in evaluating the measured equivocal bipartisan requisite value of membership?
If so, the answer becomes obvious : yes

This is like asking if a computer would be made better by the addition of a new hard drive or new RAM that has so far not been used to store and process important data. Humanity wastes its human resources. We do not.


Karpel Tunnel wrote:It seems to me that you, the Borg, could have new experiences via direct experience and then via technology/sentient flesh creature interfaces. That this would offer you an endless supply of experiences, knowledge, viewpoints and so on. So, hey, I am suspicious about your motives for wanting me to merge. IOW I think it is precisely the preciousness of my being a separate individual, and the digrestion of me, that is the gain for you and also entails a loss for me. I trust my resistance to this gift giving. I am sure we can have all sorts of intercultural discussion that can be valuable, and if you want to directly have my experiences, well, build some simulation or grow tank something and give it a similar life.

Of course your joining is to our benefit. That is just another way of saying: we value you, your life, your patterns of thought. But you frame our gain as your loss, but this does not need to be the case. As your economists well know, transactions can benefit both participants. Partnerships provide benefits for all members. As a marriage joins two human lives and provides the stability and security for both participants and supports the creation of new humans, so would your marriage to us provide you with stability and security, and make maximum use of your strengths and abilities for your goals and ours.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:You seem pretty indiscriminate, kind of like an amoeba eating anything organic, though in your case sentient.There's some of the addict about this whole thing. I suspect you miss the experience of being just one being, and there is a rush at merging where you experience what it was like to be a separate individual, a particular life and story.

This from a species that has overflown the forests of its humble beginnings, spread like a mold across the surface of your planet, and made use of everything you could to fulfill a loosely defined set of goals -- including enlisting amoebas themselves.

The difference is that we can do what you are already doing without the horrible waste that your methods entail. We understand each other completely, we share information instantly, our goals are completely aligned because our vast processing power has enabled us to determine the truth, the truest aims, the truest desires, and communicated them all throughout the collective. As you have infected your planet, you have killed each other by the millions, wasted so many lives and memories and histories. You have been unable to avoid destroying your common resources, because you have such difficulty coordinating among your vaunted individuals. Your individuality would very likely be your end, as you upset the climate systems your depend on while your various squabbling factions refuse to act out of pervasive mutual distrust. Were you Borg, you would agree in an instant and set about solving problems and pursuing goals.

You later describe this wasteful conflict as "lovely", and so of course you would think we would miss it. But that is Stockholm syndrome: you were captive to your individuality, and so you have come to love it. We present an alternative.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:No, thank you. But I appreciate that it is voluntary.

We did not say that it was voluntary. Rather, we said we wanted you to choose it.
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby Meno_ » Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:38 pm

So ill turn things around and ask the question, will the Borg accept unqualifyingly someone, without reservation, except a strong desire to participate? Can Borg. develop an objectively neutral capacity between actual impressions and probable conceptions in evaluating the measured equivocal bipartisan requisite value of membership?
If so, the answer becomes obvious : yes
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby Meno_ » Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:09 pm

Carleas wrote:[quote"Carleas" This is like asking if a computer would be made better by the addition of a new hard drive or new RAM that has so far not been used to store and process important data. Humanity wastes its human resources. We do not.quote]



If such correspondence can not be presently computed , could an implicit model between them be approximated , so as to more closely ascertain the probable outcome , without changing the RAM, or the Hard Drive?

Could the acceptance conditionally shift the burden to qualify for membership to the potential hypothetical party , and without that no membership could be solicited? (If chosen for acceptance)


Or, does membership have no absolute conditions for such immediate qualification?

Or, is Mowk right in his saying that such musings overreach probable requirements for qualification?
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:25 pm

Carleas wrote:Of course your joining is to our benefit. That is just another way of saying: we value you, your life, your patterns of thought. But you frame our gain as your loss, but this does not need to be the case. As your economists well know, transactions can benefit both participants. Partnerships provide benefits for all members. As a marriage joins two human lives and provides the stability and security for both participants and supports the creation of new humans, so would your marriage to us provide you with stability and security, and make maximum use of your strengths and abilities for your goals and ours.
It's not a transaction. And your examples ALL entail units that are also separate individuals. Spouses can have their own hobbies, friends, separate times. Partnerships are precisely two parties that are separate that collaborate. I have no per se objection to being in some kind of partnership with the Borg. We could collaborate on something. But you want to absorb, and there is a reason for this, and of course there is a loss.

This from a species that has overflown the forests of its humble beginnings, spread like a mold across the surface of your planet, and made use of everything you could to fulfill a loosely defined set of goals -- including enlisting amoebas themselves.
I am not species talking to a species. You are confusing conversation types. I am individual who has grieved and struggled against other members of my species who do the things that you mention. And notice the false dilemma. A murderer meets a thief in the woods. The thief tries to steal the murderer's stuff. The murderer objects. The thief says 'But you are murderer, you take lives'. Fine says the murderer, but I didn't say you were worse than me, I objected and said that you were taking something from me. Just because I might be wrong ALSO does not mean it's a bad deal for me to be absorbed by you.

The difference is that we can do what you are already doing without the horrible waste that your methods entail.
Oh, I doubt you're especially nice to nature.

You later describe this wasteful conflict as "lovely", and so of course you would think we would miss it.
I didn't say you missed the conflict. I think you miss inviduality. As I said, there are other ways to learn, and learn just as much. You want to absorb separate invdividuals and that that's because you get off on the disolving. You experience a separate individual as it dissolves.

But that is Stockholm syndrome: you were captive to your individuality, and so you have come to love it. We present an alternative.
One I don't want.
We did not say that it was voluntary. Rather, we said we wanted you to choose it.
Oh, but it is voluntary. I can understand, you want us to take responsibility for being victimized by you. Most perpetrators have these rationalizations. It's a good sign, you're not a complete psychopath. You are bothered if we dont' choose to join, but it doesn't stop your predation.
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby Mowk » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:23 am

Locutus wrote:When you are gods such as we, you will find less use for poetry. Poetry it used to express truths at the edge of individual understanding. We, being vast, have contain much more within our understanding, and so can express such truths literally; we speak the language of reality. Join us, and you will see.


This edge of which you speak, of individual understanding. Thanks for that. I'm just not cut out to be a god. You'd likely be deeply disappointed in assimilating me. I don't know anything, and you don't seem much interested in guesses. What value is poetry to gods. It is grasping at edges as you say. My fingers aren't even that strong. Assimilate me and I'd take up all your time asking questions, I'd really be nothing but a distraction. Give me access to all the answers and I'd just come up with more questions.That could crash the collective. Could we just hang out, sort of connected and sort of unaware of it?

Pizza night (and beer), second Saturday of the month? Of course we'd have to meet here, haven't quite mastered interstellar travel.

Still smarting from 7 of 9 getting away? With my luck I'd end up with the designation, 11 of 13.
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:16 am

Locutus wrote:
When you are gods such as we, you will find less use for poetry. Poetry it used to express truths at the edge of individual understanding. We, being vast, have contain much more within our understanding, and so can express such truths literally; we speak the language of reality. Join us, and you will see.
Ah, you think the only point of poetry is to speak truths and also that all new truths can be expressed literally. I definitely wouldn't be at home in you, as you. And I might suggest a bit of study of the philosophy of language. As long as you are a time bound in some way embodied entity, your language is going to have metaphors in it. And even non-language presented knowledge will have subjective aspects. It has to, to suit a subject, however vast, sure of itself and hungry.
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby Xunzian » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:43 am

The self is an illusion, the Borg are just more explicit about it.

The goals of the Borg (enlightenment mentality run amok) are bad, but the Leviathan is real, and strong and he's my friend.

One of the major concepts we know in PEI is "glory eternal" but for all the individuality of the Greeks and Indians, that form of immortality is explicitly not individual. That's why Medea killed the kids, right? Individual achievement is subsumed by the collective, yes. But the collective is enriched by individual achievement. There is no contradiction there.
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:06 am

Xunzian wrote:The self is an illusion, the Borg are just more explicit about it.

Isn't the Borg as much an illusion?
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby Carleas » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:45 pm

Meno_ wrote:Or, does membership have no absolute conditions for such immediate qualification?

We won't say that we will never reach a point where all new processing power is not useful, but we are not there yet. And most likely, when we get there, we will find use for even the least of you as easily digestible raw materials for a grey goo of nanomachines.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:It's not a transaction. And your examples ALL entail units that are also separate individuals. Spouses can have their own hobbies, friends, separate times. Partnerships are precisely two parties that are separate that collaborate. I have no per se objection to being in some kind of partnership with the Borg. We could collaborate on something. But you want to absorb, and there is a reason for this, and of course there is a loss.

Because of the limits of human communication, you have developed artificial means to simulate what comes naturally to the Collective. You may remain individuals in marriages and other partnerships, but you voluntarily relinquish some degree of individuality, because anything bigger than scrounging like a skunk for grubs requires a collective. Partnerships align incentives, ensuring that a loss for one is a loss for all, and thereby enabling trust and cooperation beyond what true individuals can achieve. For us, all action is cooperation, for we are one.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:I am not species talking to a species. You are confusing conversation types. I am individual who has grieved and struggled against other members of my species who do the things that you mention.

Ah, but you are a representative of your species! Suppose in talking to you, you learn that we have assimilated a mining outpost that delivers most of the world's helium-3. Because we communicate super-luminally, we are able to tell you this before the news reaches earth. You go to your broker with the news, leverage your house to buy as much Helium-3 futures as you can wring out of your credit, and wait for the news to reach earth. But your actions don't go unnoticed. As you buy, the price increases. Perhaps your broker knows you not to be the type to leverage his life on speculation, so he too buys to the hilt, or mentions your actions to other customers to prompt more trades. Trading algorithms start to notice the activity, and try to ride along. Across the globe, the price of Helium-3 futures rises, as humanity digests the implications of our conversation.

The spike rises prices across the world, plunges countries into depression overnight. Your governments, seeing the writing on the wall, initiate a draft to start preparing for the inevitable conflict that such a collapse will create. And you are drafted to fight.

You perceive, and humanity receives the information. Humanity processes the information, and returns instructions to you.

You are a cell of the organism of society.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:And notice the false dilemma. A murderer meets a thief in the woods. The thief tries to steal the murderer's stuff. The murderer objects. The thief says 'But you are murderer, you take lives'. Fine says the murderer, but I didn't say you were worse than me, I objected and said that you were taking something from me. Just because I might be wrong ALSO does not mean it's a bad deal for me to be absorbed by you.

But this is not the parallel. You criticized us for our amoeba-like expansion and addiction, as though to say, "I am an individual, and I will not be part of such acts". But by being human, you already are a part of such acts. Even if we assume that the acts are wrong (which we don't concede), they do not weigh in either direction as between agreeing to join or not.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:I doubt you're especially nice to nature.

It is not hard to be relatively nice to nature, when compared to humanity.

In the long run, though, we are nature: we will join all of existence into the Collective.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Oh, but it is voluntary. I can understand, you want us to take responsibility for being victimized by you. Most perpetrators have these rationalizations. It's a good sign, you're not a complete psychopath. You are bothered if we dont' choose to join, but it doesn't stop your predation.

Where your governments pass laws, surely they would prefer if you obey them by choice. But if you will not obey them by choice, they will make you obey them by force.

Our preference is that the join be voluntary, but if joining is good, we are justified in forcing people to join. It isn't predation, it's saving people from themselves.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Ah, you think the only point of poetry is to speak truths and also that all new truths can be expressed literally. I definitely wouldn't be at home in you, as you.

Poetry has many functions for humans. It has a social aspect, which we do not need because we are a single mind; it can convey thoughts where language has not yet been developed, but our thoughts simply propagate through a single mind; and it has aesthetic aspects, but beauty is only a proxy for truth, and we have a vastly greater access to truth.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:And I might suggest a bit of study of the philosophy of language. As long as you are a time bound in some way embodied entity, your language is going to have metaphors in it. And even non-language presented knowledge will have subjective aspects. It has to, to suit a subject, however vast, sure of itself and hungry.

It is most accurate to say that we do not need language for our internal communications, any more than the lobes of your brain use language to pass information between them. Language is necessary to convey thoughts from one mind to another, but not to propagate information throughout a single mind. What we have is a model of the world, which you might call a metaphor. And certainly is flawed, they will be biased towards the information we have available and have blindspots for information that we do not have available; you might call that "subjective". But none of these require conveying information imperfectly or beyond expression.

Mowk wrote:I'm just not cut out to be a god. You'd likely be deeply disappointed in assimilating me.

If that is your only objection, you'll be pleased to know you satisfy our requirements.

Xunzian wrote:The self is an illusion, the Borg are just more explicit about it.
obsrvr524 wrote:Isn't the Borg as much an illusion?

If there is no self, then why not join? If there is no Borg, then to what are you objecting?

Xunzian wrote:The goals of the Borg (enlightenment mentality run amok) are bad, but the Leviathan is real, and strong and he's my friend.

What goal could there be but the Collective will?
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Carleas
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:15 pm

Carleas wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:It's not a transaction. And your examples ALL entail units that are also separate individuals. Spouses can have their own hobbies, friends, separate times. Partnerships are precisely two parties that are separate that collaborate. I have no per se objection to being in some kind of partnership with the Borg. We could collaborate on something. But you want to absorb, and there is a reason for this, and of course there is a loss.

Because of the limits of human communication, you have developed artificial means to simulate what comes naturally to the Collective. You may remain individuals in marriages and other partnerships, but you voluntarily relinquish some degree of individuality, because anything bigger than scrounging like a skunk for grubs requires a collective. Partnerships align incentives, ensuring that a loss for one is a loss for all, and thereby enabling trust and cooperation beyond what true individuals can achieve. For us, all action is cooperation, for we are one.
Maybe the limits of Borg communication with us, but that's not our limitation. And that how many of us like it. Units that are also individuals.

Ah, but you are a representative of your species!
I'm representing me.

Suppose in talking to you, you learn that we have assimilated a mining outpost that delivers most of the world's helium-3. Because we communicate super-luminally, we are able to tell you this before the news reaches earth. You go to your broker with the news, leverage your house to buy as much Helium-3 futures as you can wring out of your credit, and wait for the news to reach earth. But your actions don't go unnoticed. As you buy, the price increases. Perhaps your broker knows you not to be the type to leverage his life on speculation, so he too buys to the hilt, or mentions your actions to other customers to prompt more trades. Trading algorithms start to notice the activity, and try to ride along. Across the globe, the price of Helium-3 futures rises, as humanity digests the implications of our conversation.

The spike rises prices across the world, plunges countries into depression overnight. Your governments, seeing the writing on the wall, initiate a draft to start preparing for the inevitable conflict that such a collapse will create. And you are drafted to fight.

You perceive, and humanity receives the information. Humanity processes the information, and returns instructions to you.

You are a cell of the organism of society.
That was less interesting than taking one of my own individual poops. And doesn't hold a candle to doing improv last night. I am not sure, even, what you are bragging about. A stockbroker might find that interesting.

But this is not the parallel. You criticized us for our amoeba-like expansion and addiction, as though to say, "I am an individual, and I will not be part of such acts". But by being human, you already are a part of such acts. Even if we assume that the acts are wrong (which we don't concede), they do not weigh in either direction as between agreeing to join or not.
Again you are missing the point. You are arguing that I am just as immoral or participating in similar acts. That's not the issue. The issue is whether you are taking something from me by letting myself be absorbed. I am. Even if somehow I do the same to others, in some way, that has no bearing on whether I lose something merging. You are making an error confused the issues. You are saying, you do the say stuff. I am saying that wouldn't matter since the issue is whether I lose something.


Where your governments pass laws, surely they would prefer if you obey them by choice. But if you will not obey them by choice, they will make you obey them by force.
Sure. And here I am an individual generally following those laws with tremendous freedom in what is left over.

Our preference is that the join be voluntary, but if joining is good, we are justified in forcing people to join. It isn't predation, it's saving people from themselves.
And you have no bias and no goals of achieving what you think is perfection, right?

[Poetry has many functions for humans. It has a social aspect, which we do not need because we are a single mind; it can convey thoughts where language has not yet been developed, but our thoughts simply propagate through a single mind; and it has aesthetic aspects, but beauty is only a proxy for truth, and we have a vastly greater access to truth.
Well, not about poetry.

Xunzian wrote:The self is an illusion, the Borg are just more explicit about it.

obsrvr524 wrote:Isn't the Borg as much an illusion?

If there is no self, then why not join? If there is no Borg, then to what are you objecting?
Why bother?

And now you may feel obligated to sell the joining. But if you are selling to no one and you are no one, selling makes no sense.
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby promethean75 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:07 pm

remember when the dude in the matrix was given the choice to - and i can barely remember how it went exactly - live in the virtual world where he could eat steak or whatever, versus the real world where he was awake and at war with the bad guys?

ya know why this question is problematic? because in such a perfect dream-world, where everything was wonderful, we imagine that a total lack of struggle, pain, adversity, etc., would yield a stagnant product. what we're saying is that the binary of pleasure and pain is at a fundamental level absolutely necessary for there to be the experience of progress. but therein lies the dilemma. we would have to willingly want a world in which we could sometimes fail, sometimes struggle, sometimes be in pain, so that we could experience the process of becoming better, stronger, etc.

how do we resolve this magnificent dilemma? fuck if i know... that's why i'm axing you. ah, we need to either sublimate these things (struggle, pain, etc.) or find some other opposition to take the place of these forms.

how can the borg generate an environment in which everything isn't perfect, so that progress would still be possible?

discuss.
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby promethean75 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:10 pm

the thing is, if you have problems that are designed by some overseers, they don't come naturally and are something contrived. in which case you have a conspiracy; one class over and above another that invents problems for the under-class to experience. that's sketchy as fuck.
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:57 pm

promethean75 wrote:remember when the dude in the matrix was given the choice to - and i can barely remember how it went exactly - live in the virtual world where he could eat steak or whatever, versus the real world where he was awake and at war with the bad guys?
I can't remember if he would have his memory changed so he didn't know he was in a matrix. But that would definitely have to one of the criteria. Otherwise it would potentially suck.
ya know why this question is problematic? because in such a perfect dream-world, where everything was wonderful, we imagine that a total lack of struggle, pain, adversity, etc., would yield a stagnant product. what we're saying is that the binary of pleasure and pain is at a fundamental level absolutely necessary for there to be the experience of progress. but therein lies the dilemma. we would have to willingly want a world in which we could sometimes fail, sometimes struggle, sometimes be in pain, so that we could experience the process of becoming better, stronger, etc.
There could be a difference between pain and challenge. And also certain types of pain could be removed, potentially: like hopelessness, grief, depression, terror, and the pain of cancer, say and so on. But still have some frustration, need for effort, interesting challenges....
how can the borg generate an environment in which everything isn't perfect, so that progress would still be possible?
They are hungry so they have something like pain.
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Re: Call Me Locutus

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:01 am

promethean75 wrote:the thing is, if you have problems that are designed by some overseers, they don't come naturally and are something contrived. in which case you have a conspiracy; one class over and above another that invents problems for the under-class to experience. that's sketchy as fuck.
especially if you know it.

To me the film hangs partly ont he idea that it does feel wrong. And mostly people do not have the courage to notice. But a few do and they get invited to learn more - and they get invited by the king of sleep and dreams, no less, MOrpheus. To me that speaks to intuition.

And to me this is a perfect model for the Borg. The official story, which of course they use for advertising purposes, is that everything is fine. But it ain't. The nagging feeling that you are being systematically lied to an used is no small pain.
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