The Helper In The Dream

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Meno_ » Sat May 11, 2019 1:16 am

Del Overs, -the above is unsupportive in it'self and will bring about further needs for clarification, and we are still at Your first request for such clarification. I can not as yet offer such support without bringing in thematic interdisciplinary unity. Here is a suggestive one:

AGVA FESTSCHRIFT



Shifting frontiers of transcendence in theology, philosophy and science














ABSTRACT

"This article dealt cursorily with developments in theology, philosophy and the sciences that have contributed to what one might call horizontal transcendence. The premise is that humans have evolved into beings that are wired for transcendence. Transcendence is described in terms of the metaphor of frontiers and frontier posts. Although the frontiers of transcendence shift according to the insights, understanding and needs of every epoch and world view, it remains transcendent, even in its immanent mode. Diverse perceptions of that frontier normally coexist in every era and we can only discern a posteriori which was the dominant one. Frontiers are fixed with reference to the epistemologies, notions of the subject and power structures of a given era. From a theological point of view, encounter with the transcendent affords insight, not into the essence of transcendence, but into human self-understanding and understanding of our world. Transcendence enters into the picture when an ordinary human experience acquires a depth and an immediacy that are attributed to an act of God. In philosophy, transcendence evolved from a noumenal metaphysics focused on the object (Plato), via emphasis on the epistemological structure and limits of the knowing subject (Kant) and an endeavour to establish a dynamic subject-object dialectics (Hegel), to the assimilation of transcendence into human existence (Heidegger). In the sciences certain developments opened up possibilities for God to act in non-interventionist ways. The limitations of such an approach are considered, as well as promising new departures – and their limitations – in the neurosciences. From all of this I conclude that an immanent-transcendent approach is plausible for our day and age."


Particularly, the relation between the inner/outer terms of imminance/transcendence are pointed to as inter penetrable.
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Meno_ » Sat May 11, 2019 1:41 am

Meno_ wrote:Del Overs, -the above is unsupportive in it'self and will bring about further needs for clarification, and we are still at Your first request for such clarification. I can not as yet offer such support without bringing in thematic interdisciplinary unity. Here is a suggestive one:

AGVA FESTSCHRIFT



Shifting frontiers of transcendence in theology, philosophy and science














ABSTRACT

"This article dealt cursorily with developments in theology, philosophy and the sciences that have contributed to what one might call horizontal transcendence. The premise is that humans have evolved into beings that are wired for transcendence. Transcendence is described in terms of the metaphor of frontiers and frontier posts. Although the frontiers of transcendence shift according to the insights, understanding and needs of every epoch and world view, it remains transcendent, even in its immanent mode. Diverse perceptions of that frontier normally coexist in every era and we can only discern a posteriori which was the dominant one. Frontiers are fixed with reference to the epistemologies, notions of the subject and power structures of a given era. From a theological point of view, encounter with the transcendent affords insight, not into the essence of transcendence, but into human self-understanding and understanding of our world. Transcendence enters into the picture when an ordinary human experience acquires a depth and an immediacy that are attributed to an act of God. In philosophy, transcendence evolved from a noumenal metaphysics focused on the object (Plato), via emphasis on the epistemological structure and limits of the knowing subject (Kant) and an endeavour to establish a dynamic subject-object dialectics (Hegel), to the assimilation of transcendence into human existence (Heidegger). In the sciences certain developments opened up possibilities for God to act in non-interventionist ways. The limitations of such an approach are considered, as well as promising new departures – and their limitations – in the neurosciences. From all of this I conclude that an immanent-transcendent approach is plausible for our day and age."


Particularly, the relation between the inner/outer terms of imminance/transcendence are pointed to as inter penetrable.
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So if that reasoning is followed, there is no distinction between "of" or "within" , between the content and it's defining mode. This would suggest an inter penetrability between the symbol and content in dreams suggestive of the absolute Being or the set containing all sets , including the set that is particular, vis the particular dream containing the self as an object within the dream.
When the self is excused, then it experiences the dream objectively, or non transcendentally.

The totem becomes taboo, when its firm includes its phallic aspect per interpretive realization, at times becoming allied within its structural modality, (functioning as a phallus) or outside of it, merely using 'horizontal, sub conscious representation with no other objectification, and objective. )
Here again, objective displays change in differing spatial arrangements = interchange of patterned relationships if involved spatially determined 'bits' of designated parts= in the dream.

As the later, above reference indicates, there is no distinction between an imminent and an exigent state (psychic), no clear cut exclusion, but a peneyrability. The dream may refer to any different psychic states, whether the source from million years in the past or yesterday, their set ( or context may be used safely) are interchangeable causally ( determentally or not) , and the interpretation of symbols may fluctuate between a Freudian repressive causality, or a broader consuming contextuality( content) , without a clear cut conclusion of the spatial determinants within the continuum of that particular dreamers psychic reality.

This is why I see vertical continuum to be totally unreliable on the whole, because it is a one dimensionality that restricts meaning to the most peripheral slice of understanding. Its like cutting a circle out of a sphere.

I'm sure that even this would be insufficient to try understand, rather than simply know the language behind the description, but it does attempt to answer Your first paraphrased narrative. Its a start.
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Meno_ » Sat May 11, 2019 1:49 am

Attempted to look at the next 3 paraphrased requests for clarification, and surprisingly found interpenetrability to/with the previous answer given , making work less complex, in part by using the first question and answer referentially, without having to repeat identical or even similar suggestions.
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Del Ivers » Sat May 11, 2019 6:15 pm

Meno_ wrote: Your first question is caught up in semantic complexity..,

There is nothing complex about it. Any interpretation 'within' symbolic content (not just a dream, anything) is subject to the content's parameters, i.e., the content/symbols dictate the interpretation. Just like when you read the words (symbols) in a novel they dictate the sequence and myriad of characteristics that give substance to whatever the story may be. "Of the content" is different positionally. It's like the interpretation of a critic reviewing the novel, he or she has a different engagement with it. Granted, there are occasions where one can be loose with interpretations but in discussions of this type precision is important otherwise we do end up at cross-semantic purposes.

The reason I asked the question of the difference is because you referenced it to 'absolute mind'. I doubt that anyone knows enough of absolute mind to characterize its phenomena as real or unreal. Unless, of course, you subscribe to the aforementioned Hermetic principle which states that everything is Mind and thus 'real'.

As for the rest of the sentence: "..dissection of hybrid re-presentation between cognitive differentials is sourced in definitions..", that seems like it's referencing it to some kind of dementia. Whether or not that is your intention, I'm not sure.

Meno_ wrote:Del Overs

Now there's a perfect example of a positional symbol error yielding an interesting perspective. Even I didn't notice that. Thank you. :-)

Meno_ wrote:..thematic interdisciplinary unity..

Thematic examinations are all good and well but they have to exhibit a core, organizational construct. Much has been said in recent years about cross-disciplinary approaches and it's definitely progressive but there has to be a defined objective otherwise it can become a grab-anything-and-see-what-sticks approach. If you want a collage then no problem,.but if it's a well-integrated resolution that is sought, then you'd better have that core. Following is an example of this and may I add one that refers to what I said previously about, ".. free association modes that makes the sequence of interpretation by the reader a kind of patchwork." in reference to you manner of presenting information.

You and others are probably aware of those little, blank books that you can draw something on, like a stick-man, and on each page you draw the man a little differently than the previous page. When you finish drawing on all the pages you flip them fast and it gives the illusion of the stick-man walking, jumping, whatever. There are times when I will be reading your comments and it's as if the drawings of the stick-man were pulled, shuffled, and then reinserted into the book. The fast-flipping then presents something different. The 'sequence' is there, the 'content' is there, but the 'context' seems a little squirrelly. Nothing wrong with that, but you can see how the interpreter could have a trying time with it.

Just out of curiosity, and respectfully, are you high when you write your replies? Again, nothing wrong with that. Personally, at this time in my life I smoke a little herb maybe once every 6 months or so. Maybe when I do so next time I will come back to this thread and then I'll say, "Ahh, yes, now I get where he was coming from". :-D

Whether the revelation justifies anything, that's another matter.
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Meno_ » Sat May 11, 2019 6:46 pm

Del Ivers wrote:
Meno_ wrote: Your first question is caught up in semantic complexity..,

There is nothing complex about it. Any interpretation 'within' symbolic content (not just a dream, anything) is subject to the content's parameters, i.e., the content/symbols dictate the interpretation. Just like when you read the words (symbols) in a novel they dictate the sequence and myriad of characteristics that give substance to whatever the story may be. "Of the content" is different positionally. It's like the interpretation of a critic reviewing the novel, he or she has a different engagement with it. Granted, there are occasions where one can be loose with interpretations but in discussions of this type precision is important otherwise we do end up at cross-semantic purposes.

The reason I asked the question of the difference is because you referenced it to 'absolute mind'. I doubt that anyone knows enough of absolute mind to characterize its phenomena as real or unreal. Unless, of course, you subscribe to the aforementioned Hermetic principle which states that everything is Mind and thus 'real'.

As for the rest of the sentence: "..dissection of hybrid re-presentation between cognitive differentials is sourced in definitions..", that seems like it's referencing it to some kind of dementia. Whether or not that is your intention, I'm not sure.

Meno_ wrote:Del Overs

Now there's a perfect example of a positional symbol error yielding an interesting perspective. Even I didn't notice that. Thank you. :-)

Meno_ wrote:..thematic interdisciplinary unity..

Thematic examinations are all good and well but they have to exhibit a core, organizational construct. Much has been said in recent years about cross-disciplinary approaches and it's definitely progressive but there has to be a defined objective otherwise it can become a grab-anything-and-see-what-sticks approach. If you want a collage then no problem,.but if it's a well-integrated resolution that is sought, then you'd better have that core. Following is an example of this and may I add one that refers to what I said previously about, ".. free association modes that makes the sequence of interpretation by the reader a kind of patchwork." in reference to you manner of presenting information.

You and others are probably aware of those little, blank books that you can draw something on, like a stick-man, and on each page you draw the man a little differently than the previous page. When you finish drawing on all the pages you flip them fast and it gives the illusion of the stick-man walking, jumping, whatever. There are times when I will be reading your comments and it's as if the drawings of the stick-man were pulled, shuffled, and then reinserted into the book. The fast-flipping then presents something different. The 'sequence' is there, the 'content' is there, but the 'context' seems a little squirrelly. Nothing wrong with that, but you can see how the interpreter could have a trying time with it.

Just out of curiosity, and respectfully, are you high when you write your replies? Again, nothing wrong with that. Personally, at this time in my life I smoke a little herb maybe once every 6 months or so. Maybe when I do so next time I will come back to this thread and then I'll say, "Ahh, yes, now I get where he was coming from". :-D

Whether the revelation justifies anything, that's another matter.



Del Ivers,

Ok. I knew this was coming. And I told You so. And I covered only the differential question regarding "of", and "within"

My using anything has absolutely no bearing in this forum. as You appropriately poi t out, and mark my use of "absolute" in this description of my self taking on psychic self awareness, in objectifying states of mind.
That trying to be devoid any emotional attachment. and staying in neutral position concerning this and any other issue or proposition that comes along, is my own earned preference.

The sub stance of conveying content will follow. Incidentally , I appreciate Your comments that pertain to Your dream, and maybe if You are somewhat deterministic in Your life's thematical superposition, You may start co considering me as some kind of helper , objectively speaking , and possibly start in earnest getting somewhere honestly and with objectivity.
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Del Ivers » Sat May 11, 2019 10:40 pm

Meno_ wrote:..is my own earned preference.

Absolutely. I neither stated nor implied that it wasn't.

Meno_ wrote:That trying to be devoid any emotional attachment..

I may approach something with 'emotion', but discussing things such as we have been doing and in different topics with others in the forum is a different level of the application of emotion. That others regard my text narrative as emotional, or any other state for that matter, is no proof that such is my core makeup. Think of the psycholigist's fallacy as noted by William James where he:

"...insisted repeatedly that it was fallacious to assume that the research participant's experience was to be understood in terms of the readily-available categories of the researcher. The psychologist's fallacy (of which all researchers concerned with experience may fall foul, not only psychologists) involves a confusion of the standpoints of the researcher and the researched."

In the last sentence of your last posting, you state: "You may start co considering me as some kind of helper , objectively speaking , and possibly start in earnest getting somewhere honestly and with objectivity."

Who is to to say what or whom is earnest? Who is to say I'm not being honest nor displaying objectivity? Your 'standpoint' is not necessarily my standpoint. You may consider yourself a helper, and that's nice enough. But not necessarily when it's wholly based on your own, readily-available categories.

Look at the social media (forums among them) world that we witness at the present. It's overly-saturated with people defending their standpoints even against the most obvious of facts. It's like Descartes', "I am", on steroids and ready to rumble. I'm not saying you're one of them, I'm just pointing out the field we're in. Advocacy or not is your call as likewise it is mine.

I just think that you and I, us and others, we're on different frequencies. And if regardless of all of that defending we are able to communicate and enjoy what basic understanding confers, that's cool. Better that than being paupers and delusionally regarding ourselves as kings.

Cheers

The Philosopher in Meditation
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Meno_ » Sat May 11, 2019 11:38 pm

Fair enough, we are on differing frequencies, and an intwntion matters, where a good one does make a huge sifference, in spite a less worthy an outcome , than a lack or a bad intentional start, luckily ending better worthy., more admirable.

Intentions are even less measurable in this age of pre-fabricated desires of outcomes, all measured for exacting the most tractable profitability.

Therefore , there are may not be unexpected surprises when that fine line between honesty and fabrication is broken.
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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby MagsJ » Wed May 22, 2019 3:53 am

Del Ivers wrote:So, have you had a dream(s) like that? Did it seem like someone in the dream helped you out not just in the context of a dream situation but more in the sense that they were as aforementioned, out of sync, so to speak, with the narrative of the dream, that as example, it was like you were watching a movie in a theater and then an usher goes up to you and tells you something whereby you had to leave the theater/movie. That's just a quick example that came to mind but I think by now and with what I have related you get the idea. :-)

In my dreams of similar unfolding to your's, I am always ALWAYS ignored, and this is something I have had to get used to, to my reality in the cold light of day.. the majority don't help me because they think that the next person I come across will help me, so they leave it to that person I come across to help this fellow citizen out, and then that person doesn't help me because they think that the next person I come across will help this fellow citizen out, so they leave it to the next person I will come across to help me, ad infinitum.

The story of my life, and a story I've got used to.. my personalised self-help manual, if you will.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

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Re: The Helper In The Dream

Postby Del Ivers » Wed May 22, 2019 4:43 pm

MagsJ wrote:In my dreams of similar unfolding to your's, I am always ALWAYS ignored..


For clarification, are you saying that in your dreams rather than a helper, or for that matter anyone, that what you've experienced is no one helping?
Is this just in the dream? In life?
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