Subconscious

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

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Re: Subconscious

Postby Meno_ » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:04 am

In still running around doing things to catch up from a week in Orlando. One of the most interesting places to visit was Kennedy Space Center , and it was truly an experience.

Recovering is like surfacing , for me it should have been a slow effort, but too fast . and then reading Your notion of the subconscious was a double whammy.

At this point I have again just time to catch my breath and comment on the duplicity of self, the deep self and the conventional self navigated by the ego.

The no self self, the preself, is a certainty on the very basis of the simple but strong : 'Nothing can come from nothing. There is a nothingness post something and a nothingness before that.

Are they the same?

One is no thing, the other is no thing but maybe something other then a thing.

A thing is something perceivable, but there are other things not perceivable
They are not nothing, even if they are not things.

Perhaps dimensionally they are unprecievable , perhaps in another dimension they are. Or perhaps even on this dimension we just don't have any way to perceive them.

On what level of reality exist what things, and are the levels of reality like bardo states, where our accumulated energy states may aspire to, deservedly or otherwise, or a mix of merit and demerit. All explained as compatibility of different energy levels.

Can we jump levels? Can we fall to the lowest level or land into an unexplained satori?
Are we born enlightened or need.to work for it through millions of incarnations?

Both states are incredibly joyful, and pathetic simultaneously, and the winner has to have lived at the very pit of hell, in order to bounce back.

Some like unstoppable air bubbles rise to the surface, some are laden down with horrendous anchors.

Some very special non beings mist live in redemption, living in simultainity - both: heaven and hell, between being and nothingness, they never live or die,
they are nothing and everything.

They have managed to become only an eternal possibility..

If they realize this possibility, it is given as a gift , but the price is incredibly high, and the rewards: total annihilation
for redemption With the utmost humility, according - affording even the most humiliating pride- in situ, AND only for aesthetic balance, otherwise the beasts of the underworld destroy them.


For clarity, the self is bounded and unbounded in simultainity, and this will to define the self does call the powers of depth, in that painful and wondrous duplicity which defies questions of determinancy , authority and reference
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Re: Subconscious

Postby Meno_ » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:55 am

A poem by RS Thomas , that only could have come from the subconscious:

'Looking upon this tree with its quaint pretension
Of holding the earth, a leveret, in its claws, 
Or marking the texture of its living bark, 
A grey sea wrinkled by the winds of years, 
I understand whence this man's body comes, 
In veins and fibres, the bare boughs of bone, 
The trellised thicket, where the heart, that robin, 
Greets with a song the seasons of the blood. 

But where in meadow or mountain shall I match 
The individual accent of the speech 
That is the ear's familiar? To what sun attribute 
The honeyed warmness of his smile? 
To which of the deciduous brood is german 
The angel peeping from the latticed eye? 


Arc: timelessness ago You asked for a description of that mystical tree , which magnetically,
magically turned up in an old ein plain air English landscape which sort of came my way, that I knew, even if I lost the original I would be able to carry about me, ..here the above verse. I included You in ARtemis idea of sub conscious communication.

You may remember? Some day I will photograph the original with the painting.
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Re: Subconscious

Postby Artimas » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:15 pm

"I'm still running around doing things to catch up from a week in Orlando. One of the most interesting places to visit was Kennedy Space Center , and it was truly an experience."

Take your time, I hope to travel someday as well, I do not know what to do with what I think and hope I understand so far, I have no degrees, I have no academic credibility, I have not read many of the books of the men who have talked about the things I talk about but my independent thinking has lead me to these historical figures of wisdom. I have a list of books to read but it is as if I am addicted to the nothingness of which my mind works. So why would anyone wish to believe me in what I say? when I am viewed externally, as only another ego. I don't ask anyone to believe me but instead to look for themselves, so they may discuss with me instead of merely against me for the sake of not wanting an ego to crumble. The books will give me terminology I need when I read them but I must understand on my own before reading them, as to avoid the trap of repitition of rhetoric. "Knowing without understanding", I have began to read jungs work and agree with his book on undiscovered self so far, I am reading "man and his symbols" now.


"Recovering is like surfacing , for me it should have been a slow effort, but too fast . and then reading Your notion of the subconscious was a double whammy."

This is how I feel when waking up from sleep, slammed back into physical reality/identity, like sucked back in from the non physical void of unconsciousness.

"At this point I have again just time to catch my breath and comment on the duplicity of self, the deep self and the conventional self navigated by the ego.

The no self self, the preself, is a certainty on the very basis of the simple but strong : 'Nothing can come from nothing. There is a nothingness post something and a nothingness before that.

Are they the same?"

It's a contrast, to have nothing is to have self, to have everything is to lose self, at least on average. In terms of physical reality. We have all seen the business man who has everything in life, nice material things, they have gained the world but lost the self, I have gained the self and am nothing but a tool to be used for education, I have to switch archetypes or feel another mood to live or experience. We are merely the balance in between both, we are only a step in the universes own evolution from nothing to something of which we may pick a side in which we wish to lean more towards. To be nothing is to have everything available, to be 'something' from the beginning is to limit your possibilities and most often without a hint of understanding of what those possibilities may be for an individual.

I also have chronic anxiety and deem it difficult to be around others for the abundance of being misunderstood and hated or attacked, I try to avoid bias and experiences may possibly create biasedness. If I deem it truly worthy or necessary I invest to experience it however.

If I never make a choice on what I wish to be, I am nothing yet everything, this nothingness leaves all options open to me, to understand without any attachments, no bias. It is how one may speak through the unconscious/subconscious, so it would seem. One seems to have to sacrifice their own life of "living in the moment", to save others by showing them self. This is the avoidance of manifesting as the fool and development of its routine, those who only live in the moment with a lack of understanding, shaped of experience and has attachment and bias unnecessarily so, most of the time at least. Think ancient times of the seers they used to blind early in age to cease a lot of their experiencing, a seer wold have no reason to be biased, in ancient times they were the speakers of the subconscious.

"One is no thing, the other is no thing but maybe something other then a thing."

Everything comes from nothing, everything remains possible, it's like a clean plate of food, you may put spaghetti on it or enchiladas but who wishes to mix the two? First, one must clean the plate back to nothingness before a possibility may manifest as to which an individual may bring about and fully enjoy it for what it is along with the, why, how, when, who. There has to be a blank slate for diversity to manifest so all possibilities remain to discover, the universe is discovering these possibilities of and in itself and me and you are merely one of those things being possible and to the extent of whatever we do, think or feel, the connection to the unconscious and it's subtle/metaphorical symbolism and system of communication, seems to serve as a sort of beckoning to follow it's path of experiencing, for several reasons. Our evolution, it's expansion to experience more and expand further in idea.

I know not for sure what lies before or beyond this universe or how something came from nothing, all I know is it is evolving and something changed, the "word" is the beginning, the first idea, the first reaction of two or more variables.

"A thing is something perceivable, but there are other things not perceivable
They are not nothing, even if they are not things.

Perhaps dimensionally they are unprecievable , perhaps in another dimension they are. Or perhaps even on this dimension we just don't have any way to perceive them."

We may experience them in moments, this is creativity, also psychedelics if one wishes to use them as a tool, for what they truly are, sacred. There is no doubt there are things fully unconscious to us, but I think of it as a path, the more time that passes collectively, the more that becomes conscious, the difficulty is getting other individuals to invest in understanding to further tread the path unknown.


"On what level of reality exist what things, and are the levels of reality like bardo states, where our accumulated energy states may aspire to, deservedly or otherwise, or a mix of merit and demerit. All explained as compatibility of different energy levels.

Can we jump levels? Can we fall to the lowest level or land into an unexplained satori?
Are we born enlightened or need.to work for it through millions of incarnations?"

Perhaps we may have been on a higher level before but we fell, due to what we are facing now, introduced to toxic ideology along with encouraged misunderstanding and perhaps some sort of forced devolution or maybe we truly are the beginning of this continually evolving universe, though it does not feel like such because I feel ancient and humbled.

Enlightenment is a state of mind, one of understanding what is and could be, how, who, why, when, etc. There are further states that have not been named due to us not progressing past this stage due to entrapment of and through mass ignorance or lack of understanding collectively.


"Both states are incredibly joyful, and pathetic simultaneously, and the winner has to have lived at the very pit of hell, in order to bounce back."

There has to be contrast to appreciate one or the other, so one might as well appreciate both for what they are, education, lessons to test character, to define one in the eyes of others, to be apart of their lessons as well.

"Some like unstoppable air bubbles rise to the surface, some are laden down with horrendous anchors."

Yes, it is unfortunate, that is natural selection, nature is tired of solely repetition, it will grow beyond, regardless of man's fear to do such. Nature must maintain the duality to educate and expand itself, man's willful ignorance is how one chooses to die, to be weeded out like a parasite.

"Some very special non beings mist live in redemption, living in simultainity - both: heaven and hell, between being and nothingness, they never live or die,
they are nothing and everything."


They have managed to become only an eternal possibility.."

That is duality, levels, layered, dimensions. It evolves and expands, it all began with chaos and order a system, we are now a trinity, it goes forward, like mathematics, numbers and symbols are it's game, it's language to beckon further, the rabbit hole.

"If they realize this possibility, it is given as a gift , but the price is incredibly high, and the rewards: total annihilation
for redemption With the utmost humility, according - affording even the most humiliating pride- in situ, AND only for aesthetic balance, otherwise the beasts of the underworld destroy them.

For clarity, the self is bounded and unbounded in simultainity, and this will to define the self does call the powers of depth, in that painful and wondrous duplicity which defies questions of determinancy , authority and reference"

Just for me to go out and talk publicly is humiliating for me because of their own humiliation they attempt to project on my understanding due to their lack of. It's humiliating being apart of this species the average "human", it's why the term "god" exists, because we have the potential to be them at minimal(individual) and max(collective) power.

We have a free will (will being, "thought") what is not free, is the execution of that will in an objective reality based on determinism, universal or planetary laws and systems, a physical model of chaos and order. The mind may roam wherever it wishes, they call them disorders, bad drugs, a "dreamer". Is a dream less real than reality? Simply because more people don't understand them? No, since we in reality are a dream of it already.

I hope I am understanding you correctly and may respond accordingly/justly

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Subconscious

Postby Meno_ » Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:47 pm

Knowing without understanding", I have began to read jungs work and agree.....

----------'-'''-----
He is the best entry point his distinction between knowing and understanding is minimally maximized, so as to create an allusion to an illusive network of counter balances, very predictive of the coming of cyber learning

As if Leibnitz intended to promote a reintegrative effort, into the primal differentiation , but then maybe that was not HIS intention, but he was likewise prompted by some hidden preoccupation.
------------'
'hope I am understanding you correctly and may respond accordingly/justly'


-------

Yes You are, I take Your closing and Your opening premise in simultainity, so as to enable to view the intervening as a comprehensive deontology, a de-differentiation or a re- integration, not necessarily based on the most inclusive probable set of facts, of the knowledge of them based on understanding.
Last edited by Meno_ on Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Subconscious

Postby Meno_ » Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:35 pm

Hope to deal with Your intermediate concern between formal and structural suppositions if or when the book covers are sufficiently judged as having enough transparency ,so as not to suggest a closed book.
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Re: Subconscious

Postby Artimas » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:10 pm

Meno_ wrote:Knowing without understanding", I have began to read jungs work and agree.....

----------'-'''-----
He is the best entry point his distinction between knowing and understanding is minimally maximized, so as to create an allusion to an illusive network of counter balances, very predictive of the coming of cyber learning

As if Leibnitz intended to promote a reintegrative effort, into the primal differentiation , but then maybe that was not HIS intention, but he was likewise prompted by some hidden preoccupation.
------------'
'hope I am understanding you correctly and may respond accordingly/justly'


-------

Yes You are, I take Your closing and Your opening premise in simultainity, so as to enable to view the intervening as a comprehensive deontology, a de-differentiation or a re- integration, not necessarily based on the most inclusive probable set of facts, of the knowledge of them based on understanding.


Ultimately, self is the best method of learning and achieving understanding due to the "lead a horse to water not being able to make them drink it" analogy in terms of diversity in perception. And if you could make them drink it, it would be tyranny, force upon will.

This system is intricately designed and evolving as to prevent such easy loops from being exploited, one must work for what they truly want.

I love reading, it is just key to make sure you keep yourself in an unbiased state of thought/perception when doing so, most are not so they just believe and know rather than develop the tool necessary to think properly and dissect it themselves. They "take your word" for it instead of conscious investigation, when I say "they" I mean the masses, I am sure you are well aware though.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Subconscious

Postby Meno_ » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:21 pm

Artimas wrote:Artimas -"Ultimately, self is the best method of learning and achieving understanding due to the "lead a horse to water not being able to make them drink it" analogy in terms of diversity in perception. And if you could make them drink it, it would be tyranny, force upon will.

This system is intricately designed and evolving as to prevent such easy loops from being exploited, one must work for what they truly want.

I love reading, it is just key to make sure you keep yourself in an unbiased state of thought/perception when doing so, most are not so they just believe and know rather than develop the tool necessary to think properly and dissect it themselves. They "take your word" for it instead of conscious investigation, when I say "they" I mean the masses, I am sure you are well aware though."



The majority, right , but a minority never really find out, they sort of in a kind of challenging way, are pushed and thrown that way, and if they ever find some sign or understanding along the way, then that's an extra.
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Re: Subconscious. - conscious

Postby Meno_ » Wed May 08, 2019 1:28 am

was this post I made I wanted an opinion of or to know if it is new or proven in psychology yet, I would like to write a paper and hope to be the first to start this as a theory if it hasn’t been understood or written about before in this fashion.

It’s a theory of why we have the unconscious/subconscious and why we are an infinite to be understood.

“Is this anything good or verifiable or new? My take in this present moment of how it all functions of which there will be more to add and be expounded upon, of that I have no doubt.

A priori knowledge is at an infinite amount of which is biologically integrated into the dna and of which builds the psyche, the present a posteriori( also contributes through present/current environment and experience of which builds or shapes the ego/provokes instinct. A priori exists integrated into psyche by and through the unconscious and subconscious of which was built of that same infinite a posteriori in one and all ancestries past(s) before one is conscious or has an ability to understand and express such consciousness/understanding upon the world.

In simpler terms or through an attempted expression/example: An existential crisis is what it is, due to an individual being an infinite amount of possibilities of both past and future confined to and in a present moment of which causes the individual to lose track or gain track of who they are as self and their suppressed being, dependent upon their attribution of value to future or past through fear/blame or acceptance/gain.

The subconscious has no differentiation between time and so it is built off of an infinity of both past and future possibilities to the conscious (understanding) mind which presents the illusion of being confined to past, present or future but in reality the individual is all three due to their psyche not being able to differentiate and being built from an infinity of objective unconscious/subconscious experiences, a sought possibility of which may seem imaginative is a possibility of which the steps do not appear due to the illusion of value attribution/satisfaction. When one understands they are the infinity of both past, present and future the will becomes free from this causal reaction of the past.

‘A man must become nothing, to become something’

In this becoming nothing one may glimpse everything.

To be or understand nothing is to see and be everything for possibilities even if seeming like imaginative impossibilities, are ladders to be climbed. What seems like imagination is due to the staircase of understanding and it’s steps being longer than what one may see or that one may value less stressful/more satisfactory in their present moment, so a very higher up understanding/step and having to be stressfully climbed possibility seems like an impossibility at the sacrifice of value for the future for value in the present.

The illusion of satisfaction/value attribution which is from a lesser point of understanding.

Being controlled by past to casually enjoy fruits of the present:

“Less work in the present moment for more value in the present but for less value in the future”

Being controlled by the future, for one may deem that the present lacks fruits/value from the past:

“More work in the present at the cost of struggle and acceptance of pain, for more value in the future”.

The mind is conditioned by a posteriori until one understands the implications and intricacies of their own consciousness and makes a choice and sacrifice to pursue being fully conscious through a priori.

Some examples that there is a non differentiation between time of, in and through the subconscious aspects of reality could be shown as instinct, intuition(future), dreams(past or future), guilt(past), etc.”

__

I am taking liberties here, my sin, but it has affinity to making conscious that which I have dreadfully neglected, sorry for that hope not to forge an overly negative impression.

Nevertheless, its not too late to explore this in reference to the overall topic , and not the authorship, or it's authentic referential modality, since then, it would negate the intention. of it's psychic state.

I ran out of time now, but will try to get back to it shortly._______________
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Re: Subconscious. - conscious

Postby Meno_ » Wed May 08, 2019 8:11 am

Artimas wrote:was this post I made I wanted an opinion of or to know if it is new or proven in psychology yet, I would like to write a paper and hope to be the first to start this as a theory if it hasn’t been understood or written about before in this fashion.

It’s a theory of why we have the unconscious/subconscious and why we are an infinite to be understood.

“Is this anything good or verifiable or new? My take in this present moment of how it all functions of which there will be more to add and be expounded upon, of that I have no doubt.

A priori knowledge is at an infinite amount of which is biologically integrated into the dna and of which builds the psyche, the present a posteriori( also contributes through present/current environment and experience of which builds or shapes the ego/provokes instinct. A priori exists integrated into psyche by and through the unconscious and subconscious of which was built of that same infinite a posteriori in one and all ancestries past(s) before one is conscious or has an ability to understand and express such consciousness/understanding upon the world.

In simpler terms or through an attempted expression/example: An existential crisis is what it is, due to an individual being an infinite amount of possibilities of both past and future confined to and in a present moment of which causes the individual to lose track or gain track of who they are as self and their suppressed being, dependent upon their attribution of value to future or past through fear/blame or acceptance/gain.

The subconscious has no differentiation between time and so it is built off of an infinity of both past and future possibilities to the conscious (understanding) mind which presents the illusion of being confined to past, present or future but in reality the individual is all three due to their psyche not being able to differentiate and being built from an infinity of objective unconscious/subconscious experiences, a sought possibility of which may seem imaginative is a possibility of which the steps do not appear due to the illusion of value attribution/satisfaction. When one understands they are the infinity of both past, present and future the will becomes free from this causal reaction of the past.

‘A man must become nothing, to become something’

In this becoming nothing one may glimpse everything.

To be or understand nothing is to see and be everything for possibilities even if seeming like imaginative impossibilities, are ladders to be climbed. What seems like imagination is due to the staircase of understanding and it’s steps being longer than what one may see or that one may value less stressful/more satisfactory in their present moment, so a very higher up understanding/step and having to be stressfully climbed possibility seems like an impossibility at the sacrifice of value for the future for value in the present.

The illusion of satisfaction/value attribution which is from a lesser point of understanding.

Being controlled by past to casually enjoy fruits of the present:

“Less work in the present moment for more value in the present but for less value in the future”

Being controlled by the future, for one may deem that the present lacks fruits/value from the past:

“More work in the present at the cost of struggle and acceptance of pain, for more value in the future”.

The mind is conditioned by a posteriori until one understands the implications and intricacies of their own consciousness and makes a choice and sacrifice to pursue being fully conscious through a priori.

Some examples that there is a non differentiation between time of, in and through the subconscious aspects of reality could be shown as instinct, intuition(future), dreams(past or future), guilt(past), etc.”

__

I am taking liberties here, my sin, but it has affinity to making conscious that which I have dreadfully neglected, sorry for that hope not to forge an overly negative impression.

Nevertheless, its not too late to explore this in reference to the overall topic , and not the authorship, or it's authentic referential modality, since then, it would negate the intention. of it's psychic state.

I ran out of time now, but will try to get back to it shortly._______________


-------------
priori knowledge is at an infinite amount of which is biologically integrated into the dna and of which builds the psyche, the present a posteriori( also contributes through present/current environment and experience of which builds or shapes the ego/provokes instinct.


and this:


Do you think that may be possible? Natural selection being naturally selected?


These two propositions have definitional and re-presentable nexus, and I think the conscious/subconscious differentiaton along formal-topical lines as well as within structural -evaluative lines.

This is confusing at first and some a-priori automatic writing is involved, so verification later if desired.
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Re: Subconscious coup de grace?

Postby Meno_ » Wed May 08, 2019 3:31 pm

Daniel Blue

Cambridge University Press (2016)

Abstract

How did Nietzsche the philosopher come into being? The Nietzsche known today did not develop 'naturally', through the gradual maturation of some inborn character. Instead, from an early age he engaged in a self-conscious campaign to follow his own guidance, thereby cultivating the critical capacities and personal vision which figure in his books. As a result, his published works are steeped in values that he discovered long before he mobilized their results. Indeed, one could argue that the first work which he authored was not a book at all, but his own persona. Based on scholarship previously available only in German, this book examines Nietzsche's unstable childhood, his determination to advance through self-formation, and the ways in which his environment, notably the Prussian education system, alternately influenced and impeded his efforts to find his own way. It will be essential reading for all who are interested in Nietzsche.


There goes natural selection of the natural, Artemis , and the following of this trail.- commenting on the difficulty in understanding a transcendence, being not merely a descriptive endeavor.
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Re: Subconscious

Postby Artimas » Wed May 08, 2019 4:01 pm

The unconscious aspects (change and unconscious reactions) of the world and universe happened, of which brought natural selection and consciousness from what could be considered a form of natural selection, if the natural selection of natural selection did not happen, there would be no natural selection on Earth, no consciousness which would mean no Neitzche to be able to self propel himself through, with and for identity and perhaps no Neitzche or life at all.

I am not arguing that we have not or do not self propel with our consciousness, in fact I argue for that aspect being real and I associate that aspect of consciousness with 'free will' or our own individual unique abilities to attribute values and then pursue those values.

What I am trying to get at is, Neitzche existed within that system but also attached to that system, the natural selection of which is earthly and the natural selection of which is cosmic that brought an earthly version of it. Neitzche is directly connected or plugged into all of that unconscious experience or reacting of matter, previous to himself and not only that but he is embedded with such and I believe that is what the unconscious mind is or where it comes from, from an experience not known or understood but consciousness inverted from subconsciousness due to evolving further complexity and we may seek to learn of the unconscious aspects that brought us forth while also being embedded with such.

Which would mean the "imagination" should be examined more thoroughly and not so easily dismissed, what is imaginative only seems imaginative or fantasy due to our lack of an understanding of the path that leads to whatever is imagined itself. Think of how everyone said flying wouldn't happen but it did, that could be one example out of many in history. The neitzche we know today, used his consciousness to formulate his positions, which I respect and agree with but neitzche came from something external to himself while also being himself due to his consciousness. He was a byproduct of natural selection, we all are. Neitzche then even if not having any direct experience before his birth of which was a path of experience itself that lead up to his existence, may now go and see or consciously understand such path of experience(history and ancestry) which could be considered a form of 'memory'.

He is both attached and embedded with the path of experience of which are the different layers of the conscious mind, attached via multiple strings to different layers or eras of evolutionary experiencing.

The millions of years of evolution that went on before what we consider 'life' (the unconscious aspect) is integrated into our being and why we have why appear to be separated but are overlapping layers of mind, due to different eras of experience itself evolving inevitably through trial and error.
Last edited by Artimas on Wed May 08, 2019 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Subconscious

Postby promethean75 » Wed May 08, 2019 4:40 pm

I'm happy to hear you're reading Neitzche, artimas. Keep it up and you'll do fine, son.
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Re: Subconscious

Postby Meno_ » Thu May 09, 2019 12:37 am

Artimas wrote:The unconscious aspects (change and unconscious reactions) of the world and universe happened, of which brought natural selection and consciousness from what could be considered a form of natural selection, if the natural selection of natural selection did not happen, there would be no natural selection on Earth, no consciousness which would mean no Neitzche to be able to self propel himself through, with and for identity and perhaps no Neitzche or life at all.

I am not arguing that we have not or do not self propel with our consciousness, in fact I argue for that aspect being real and I associate that aspect of consciousness with 'free will' or our own individual unique abilities to attribute values and then pursue those values.

What I am trying to get at is, Neitzche existed within that system but also attached to that system, the natural selection of which is earthly and the natural selection of which is cosmic that brought an earthly version of it. Neitzche is directly connected or plugged into all of that unconscious experience or reacting of matter, previous to himself and not only that but he is embedded with such and I believe that is what the unconscious mind is or where it comes from, from an experience not known or understood but consciousness inverted from subconsciousness due to evolving further complexity and we may seek to learn of the unconscious aspects that brought us forth while also being embedded with such.

Which would mean the "imagination" should be examined more thoroughly and not so easily dismissed, what is imaginative only seems imaginative or fantasy due to our lack of an understanding of the path that leads to whatever is imagined itself. Think of how everyone said flying wouldn't happen but it did, that could be one example out of many in history. The neitzche we know today, used his consciousness to formulate his positions, which I respect and agree with but neitzche came from something external to himself while also being himself due to his consciousness. He was a byproduct of natural selection, we all are. Neitzche then even if not having any direct experience before his birth of which was a path of experience itself that lead up to his existence, may now go and see or consciously understand such path of experience(history and ancestry) which could be considered a form of 'memory'.

He is both attached and embedded with the path of experience of which are the different layers of the conscious mind, attached via multiple strings to different layers or eras of evolutionary experiencing.

The millions of years of evolution that went on before what we consider 'life' (the unconscious aspect) is integrated into our being and why we have why appear to be separated but are overlapping layers of mind, due to different eras of experience itself evolving inevitably through trial and error.




I think we are on the right path, and the two door scenario so apropos within Your description here. In that sense, the first door is simply and ultimately natural, it is that which has to open up in the same way that god declares I am who I am.

The second door changes the motive. It no longer requires being to be perfectly identifiable , it's essence breaks into the other less perfect realm, so that it can cone alive, and perceive itself only in the epoch of determination. It is determined to change, the change it inevitable, but strangely prophetically marking an ambiguity of more complexity through ongoing an compelling differentiation within different layers of interchange.
The mirror exemplifies change, and seeks emulation as a way to generate more time , through more spatial overlap. Space can not operate as time , creating illusive continuum through disconnection, as time can, it hasn't overlap into other spatial areamgements to create the sense of movement through a time , that such superimposition

has created. Space and its various configurations are primary modes of differentiation, breaking up conscious manifestation. Into the quality of perceiving .

Time assumes a secondary function , contorting even to semblance by superposition of cut up engrams which have somehow been scripted unto a primordial substance. This substance is harmonic, and the calculus of differences of multiple fed back integrations, determine the passage of it's essential elements, as Leibnitz pointed out .

The shadow dreams, haunted by a necessity, a decisiveness, to avoid a transcendental chase, where the hunter become hunted.

Haunt is descriptive of a shadow world of twilight and dawn where the spirits , unconsciously find receptacles of anguish and delirium, of terror and extasis. It comesnfromntje very depths of archaic consciousness.
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Re: Subconscious

Postby Artimas » Fri May 17, 2019 4:32 pm

Meno_ wrote:
Artimas wrote:The unconscious aspects (change and unconscious reactions) of the world and universe happened, of which brought natural selection and consciousness from what could be considered a form of natural selection, if the natural selection of natural selection did not happen, there would be no natural selection on Earth, no consciousness which would mean no Neitzche to be able to self propel himself through, with and for identity and perhaps no Neitzche or life at all.

I am not arguing that we have not or do not self propel with our consciousness, in fact I argue for that aspect being real and I associate that aspect of consciousness with 'free will' or our own individual unique abilities to attribute values and then pursue those values.

What I am trying to get at is, Neitzche existed within that system but also attached to that system, the natural selection of which is earthly and the natural selection of which is cosmic that brought an earthly version of it. Neitzche is directly connected or plugged into all of that unconscious experience or reacting of matter, previous to himself and not only that but he is embedded with such and I believe that is what the unconscious mind is or where it comes from, from an experience not known or understood but consciousness inverted from subconsciousness due to evolving further complexity and we may seek to learn of the unconscious aspects that brought us forth while also being embedded with such.

Which would mean the "imagination" should be examined more thoroughly and not so easily dismissed, what is imaginative only seems imaginative or fantasy due to our lack of an understanding of the path that leads to whatever is imagined itself. Think of how everyone said flying wouldn't happen but it did, that could be one example out of many in history. The neitzche we know today, used his consciousness to formulate his positions, which I respect and agree with but neitzche came from something external to himself while also being himself due to his consciousness. He was a byproduct of natural selection, we all are. Neitzche then even if not having any direct experience before his birth of which was a path of experience itself that lead up to his existence, may now go and see or consciously understand such path of experience(history and ancestry) which could be considered a form of 'memory'.

He is both attached and embedded with the path of experience of which are the different layers of the conscious mind, attached via multiple strings to different layers or eras of evolutionary experiencing.

The millions of years of evolution that went on before what we consider 'life' (the unconscious aspect) is integrated into our being and why we have why appear to be separated but are overlapping layers of mind, due to different eras of experience itself evolving inevitably through trial and error.




I think we are on the right path, and the two door scenario so apropos within Your description here. In that sense, the first door is simply and ultimately natural, it is that which has to open up in the same way that god declares I am who I am.

The second door changes the motive. It no longer requires being to be perfectly identifiable , it's essence breaks into the other less perfect realm, so that it can cone alive, and perceive itself only in the epoch of determination. It is determined to change, the change it inevitable, but strangely prophetically marking an ambiguity of more complexity through ongoing an compelling differentiation within different layers of interchange.
The mirror exemplifies change, and seeks emulation as a way to generate more time , through more spatial overlap. Space can not operate as time , creating illusive continuum through disconnection, as time can, it hasn't overlap into other spatial areamgements to create the sense of movement through a time , that such superimposition

has created. Space and its various configurations are primary modes of differentiation, breaking up conscious manifestation. Into the quality of perceiving .

Time assumes a secondary function , contorting even to semblance by superposition of cut up engrams which have somehow been scripted unto a primordial substance. This substance is harmonic, and the calculus of differences of multiple fed back integrations, determine the passage of it's essential elements, as Leibnitz pointed out .

The shadow dreams, haunted by a necessity, a decisiveness, to avoid a transcendental chase, where the hunter become hunted.

Haunt is descriptive of a shadow world of twilight and dawn where the spirits , unconsciously find receptacles of anguish and delirium, of terror and extasis. It comesnfromntje very depths of archaic consciousness.



It was inevitable, no time to the aspects of reality/being of which are not conscious, it was a matter of trial and error, how long it took, didn’t matter, only matters to us but here we are, inevitable byproducts of an infinitely old natural selection that still happens on multiple levels, which is the synchronicity and “as above so below”.


It is like a separation of layers of which (Earthly natural selection) life is the layer that perceives, the more complex layer resulting of outward expansive change and then turning inward to expand. The outward is millions and millions of years, so when we turn inward that’s what we see, because we life, are a result of it’s outward evolution, that can see itself by focusing inward, it’s a mirror, a loop, it never ends because it is still going and we are connected to that going and may steer that going as well as view it.


Yes, infinite ongoing change. Time is the measurement of change, we invented such while conscious, so we may track this outward expansion of inverted viewing, the snake eating itself while it still treads, it’s the wheel of change(inevitable)/(time=consciousness)


It was the great divide, there is no complex conscious aspect that could come out of an isolation or infinite confinement if it did not break apart or diversify(expand), no evolutionary pioneering. There has to be diversity to change and evolve simplicity(unconscious) into complexity(subconscious) and then complexity only grows more complex and inverted (conscious). It started confined to one point only to expand and diversify, life was inevitable, even if it took a long time.


Information attached to imagery by the equation of change in different eras. There was a beginning of itself and a continuity of itself, time has always been even without name because it was inevitable and lead to now, where we have named such. We just call it change, which we call it such due to our lack of current observance back in the unconscious/subconscious eras and reign of determination. We call it such so we can differentiate between periods, eras. Yet there is no real separation of the two except one would not exist without consciousness, without the third step to look down and up upon the other two steps in back and front of it.


Run little rabbit, run, the comfort is what kills you, adapt and transcend self to remain the apex, the manors staircase has always been, dusty and waiting for our ability to tread it and with each step it continues higher or lower, the shadow will chase one up or down the transcendent or descendant, if it’s on ones death bed, it will be seen even if not lived willingly, inevitable sighting, to glimpse the power one has forsaken and dismissed in not being chased upward in what could have been ones home.

Any who tread the archaic, primordial chaos, will be touched by madness so it would seem, the incomprehensible infinity of chaotic construction of order to a single identity. It is a door that is too, inevitable. Death waits to re-embed any and all back into it to repeat its cycling. The mind can bend and it can also break under the pressure of incomprehensible infinity. All is for all to glimpse, for all is the all in itself.
Last edited by Artimas on Fri May 17, 2019 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Subconscious

Postby Meno_ » Fri May 17, 2019 10:36 pm

There is such complexity but so little time to realize it, therefore reductive minimilization, short -cutting. The beats use of cutting reality is a manifestation of complexity within the process You describe well, above. In fact , Sassure, and modern thought well note this. Imagination, the ima go, is a retrofitted notion, for a backward notion of this process, of a very drastic change in logic.

The change came suddenly with the cogito ergo sum pregnant with the esse est percipii, where previously, this understanding could not be explained to medieval philosophy.

Philosophy, ever metaphysical , always relies on the imagination, from which and off which logical syntax tries to develop from. The metamorphosis of Narcissus is an extremely strong metaphor , underlying knowledge, rather simple , but really with the problem preexisting in both worlds, and connected by two not a single door.

The above I admit is a prefabrication around whose skeleton I will attempt to get involved by Your comments here, as well to rejoin the philosophic forum on free will.
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Re: Subconscious

Postby Meno_ » Sat May 18, 2019 6:02 pm

To the aforementioned skeleton , the image still pretty pronounced in my mind, little cam be added, the basic stiff is probably enough, to evoke this retro fitted co sciousness of what You call naturally selected natural selection , where
on backward look, the imagination can and does elaborate, embellish, by virtue of the missing links while looking back into the processes of integration betweem
image and thought. That the process is goal oriented by virtue of some change , is verified by Leibnitz' integral quantification , leading to curved space elucidated by Einstein.

That it is so, primarily was not realized by the geometers, infinity of the spjwricallu curved earth was the beginning, where really, there was for a very long time no reason to reject the notion of dropping off when coming to the end of what could be expected to be perceived.

The imagination was for a long time one dimensional, auditory-literal, you saw what you perceived, what you heard from what they thought you.

Isolation was in fact preferred, because of the paradoxical nature of absolute identity, through which a pre existent object could transpire or transcend it'self through others who shared every objective .

Mystical hermetic philosophy is still present in hermeneutics, its still present as a thema causa. and it has retained its qualitative necessity from Plato's paradox particularly through Meno. I guess it was a.conscious decision on my part to choose that name.

Looking back, the advance to the naturalistic fallacy, coming much later, of a Kantian affirmation of the equal validity of a 'should' type proposition with a factual 'is' type, is beginning to haunt many forms of epistemology.

Lets give one example.

Let's say, the nuclear miracle comes close to throw a fast ball and reduce the distinction between the ideas that the nuclear invention lead to a good thing, and the opposing idea that it will eventually lead to a less optimistic evaluation of it, coinciding with Hobbes' negative view of the formation of the social co tract, and man will misadapt the invention toward self destruction rather them self betterment.

This view has more.resonance when the question of existential fear is entered into the equation.

It goes to argue that the loss of faith accompanying the death of God, will instill more, not less fear and uncertainty into man, having the capacity to St and on his own, without feeling cut off from god , and as am extension, extending goodness through god to his fellow man.

Man will more.likely to continue to objectify each other, losing the touch with which and through which, they can experience each other, even at the cost.of subjugation, through ideal objects. The absolute objective being unknown , a mystery, shrouded but effective in holding this holistically bound creation together.

Another source of reasoning comes not merely from seeing the image of the simulation of god, but through the use of the human mind. extending through artificial intelligence, of actually simulating reality at will.

Something has.to replace god, and science in its absolute infancy, is a precarious creating force.

Infancy, since the question answered is overwhelming in am indivisible indubidable affirmative that science must have bore fruit many places, at many times in this infinitum of universes, and this one we live in is no exception. Therefore , we place way too much value on science, and too little on what.went on before it and none of all on what will happen after it, if there is an after.

The reason I say that is not that I have seen Mad Max too many times, but lets.face it, there will come a time where the application will overcome . when the Hunter will become hunted, and AI will destroy those who think their mind is better equipped to handle humankind then that intelligence , which for the most.part, has lost.touch almost.near.absolutely with those, whose programming has become irrelevant to the objective toward which and by which, man's survival can be extended.yet a bit.

That this is coming soon. has also been predicated in a reasonable way.

Now I'm coming to Your very interesting concept of selecting naturally the natural selection of determined courses of evolution.

If it is safe.to say that.Nature works absolutely on the level of absolute sustenance of Being, then that Absolute is a built in guarantee of imminent guarantee for the survival of.Humanity, and the idea of transcendence will be based.merely on a singular images of certain mystical and religiously inspired visions. The capacity to transcend the apparent instability of a singularly envisioned image, then, can connect.with the actual unity within two contradictory forma within and without the same eigenblick, or instant(for eternity singularly is but an immeasurable instant In the curviture of reality, the ultimate reduction unto a undifferentiable formal difference, as it approaches absolute limits.


That this idea , say in a million years, will become so politically and psychologically dangerous, for reasons that existence will be totally nihilized. where absolute fear will totally neutralize any meaningful effort to create and recreate within the most far off image of.simulation, ; this Nature will disallow.
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Re: Subconscious

Postby Meno_ » Sat May 18, 2019 6:17 pm

Nature does not destroy itself, cosmological my, her self.destruction is evident through observations of black hole processes and star explosions . yet again the constant
reorganization is a given, because She is here, and if the above constant regeneration, not in a partial way but in accordance to the absolute simulation. then Her (The Universal) nature cam not allow an absolute break up or disintegration .

For a long time and even now, maybe, I suggested that universal consciousness consists only virtually as a single point in eternity, and as senseless it appears, it may be the very absolute pin, holding all the near infinite existential layers together.
The metaphoric realm of angels have.long held this: Angels dancing on the top of a pin. I am not claiming originality, and it would be interesting g to find out who and how came up with a cosmological reductive absolute in this manner. I will try to go d out and get back to You shortly.
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Re: Subconscious

Postby Meno_ » Sat May 18, 2019 6:26 pm

Ralph Cudworth, _The True Intellectual System of the Universe_, 1678
: : [According to _Merriam Webster's Biographical Dictionary_ , he "Sought in his magmum opus, _The True Intellectual System of the Universe_ , to establish a supreme divine intelligence, to refute determinism, to justify moral ideas, and to establish free will."]


https://youtu.be/m_NholHANoY


https://youtu.be/lSYFJB7o9ZQ
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