'Spirit' Correlates with 'Breath'?

[Prismatic567]

Does 'Spirit' Correlates with 'Breath'?

I think the OP would be better if there was some kind of argument.
It's fine that it's speculative, but why do you correlate breath holding with spirituality, spirituality having to do with spirit, that is non-material entities, processes, etc. I could come up with my own reasons, and certainly some religions and spiritualities focus on the breath, but why do you think there should be correlation?

spirituality
/spɪrɪtʃʊˈalɪti,spɪrɪtjʊˈalɪti/
noun
the quality of being concerned with the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.
"the shift in priorities allows us to embrace our spirituality in a more profound way"

/ˈspɪrɪt/Skicka
noun
1. the non-physical part of a person which is the seat of emotions and character; the soul.
"we seek a harmony between body and spirit"
synonymer: soul, psyche, inner self, inner being, essential being; Mer

Of course some people think that materialists can have a spirituality, but I think this is a poor word choice. They can have values, a philosophy, an outlook on life...etc. But spirituality is based on things not considered real by the materialist, and other words serve the purpose perfectely.

The dictionary meaning is too crude. However note the origin;

Origin
Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French, from Latin spiritus ‘breath, spirit’, from spirare ‘breathe’.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/spirit

In a more refine philosophical consideration, note here is where 'spirit' correlates with 'breath.'

The English word "spirit" comes from the Latin spiritus,but also "spirit, soul, courage, vigor", ultimately from a Proto-Indo-European *(s)peis. It is distinguished from Latin anima, "soul" (which nonetheless also derives from an Indo-European root meaning "to breathe", earliest form *h2enh1-).[4]
In Greek, this distinction exists between pneuma (πνεῦμα), "breath, motile air, spirit," and psykhē (ψυχή), "soul"[1] (even though the latter term, ψῡχή = psykhē/psūkhē, is also from an Indo-European root meaning "to breathe": *bhes-, zero grade *bhs- devoicing in proto-Greek to *phs-, resulting in historical-period Greek ps- in psūkhein, "to breathe", whence psūkhē, "spirit", "soul").[5]

The word "spirit" came into Middle English via Old French. The distinction between soul and spirit also developed in the Abrahamic religions: Arabic nafs (نفس) opposite rūħ (روح); Hebrew neshama (נְשָׁמָה‬ nəšâmâh) or nephesh נֶ֫פֶשׁ‬ nép̄eš (in Hebrew neshama comes from the root NŠM or "breath") opposite ruach (רוּחַ‬ rúaħ).
(Note, however, that in Semitic just as in Indo-European, this dichotomy has not always been as neat historically as it has come to be taken over a long period of development: Both נֶ֫פֶשׁ‬ (root נפשׁ‬) and רוּחַ‬ (root רוח‬), as well as cognate words in various Semitic languages, including Arabic, also preserve meanings involving misc. air phenomena: "breath", "wind", and even "odour").

It is noted the word 'spirituality' is a VERY loose term. However it is a term I find to be suited to what I intended to convey from the secular perspective, i.e.

Modern spirituality is centered on the "deepest values and meanings by which people live."[96] It embraces the idea of an ultimate or an alleged immaterial reality.[97] It envisions an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of his/her being.

Not all modern notions of spirituality embrace transcendental ideas. Secular spirituality emphasizes humanistic ideas on moral character (qualities such as love, compassion, patience, tolerance, forgiveness, contentment, responsibility, harmony, and a concern for others).[98]:22 These are aspects of life and human experience which go beyond a purely materialist view of the world without necessarily accepting belief in a supernatural reality or divine being.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual ... cteristics

"Spirituality" [as defined above] is an emergent that is synergistic from the total human self in interaction with its environment and others that is difficult to be reduced to the physical or material.

In physics, a physical body or physical object (or simply a body or object) is an identifiable collection of matter, which may be constrained by an identifiable boundary, and may move as a unit by translation or rotation, in 3-dimensional space.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_body

Since 'breath' correlates with 'Spirit'
therefore the effectiveness of one's breath correlates to one's level of spirituality [secular].

One basic objective measurement of 'spirituality' [secular] is the normal breath retention period. The other is the Maximum breath retention period.
How to measure? see here;
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=194655&p=2717318#p2717318

[Karpel Tunnel]

The dictionary meaning is too crude. However note the origin;

Origin
Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French, from Latin spiritus ‘breath, spirit’, from spirare ‘breathe’.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/spirit

In a more refine philosophical consideration, note here is where 'spirit' correlates with 'breath.'

Sure, however the words breath and spirit have diverged. For them, back then, they were the same. They were all religious back then. When the final breathe was exhaled the spirit left the body. The soul/the person did not die. IOW why use the meanings that theists correlated to justify a secular use of the word, especially since the word no longer is coupled to the breath. It's an odd appeal to authority for a non-theist. And further, odd since there are other options that do not have religions/supernatural overtones.

It is noted the word 'spirituality' is a VERY loose term. However it is a term I find to be suited to what I intended to convey from the secular perspective, i.e.

It's not a secular word. It might make sense if you were communicating to people back then. However, they would assume you meant BOTH connotations not just the air and process of breathing. There are perfectly good words for secular belief systems and control of one's will or whatever one's specific philosophy is. But in a secular system using the word spirituality is not just confusing, it is cake and eat it too.

Modern spirituality is centered on the "deepest values and meanings by which people live."[96] It embraces the idea of an ultimate or an alleged immaterial reality.[97] It envisions an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of his/her being.

Not all modern notions of spirituality embrace transcendental ideas. Secular spirituality emphasizes humanistic ideas on moral character (qualities such as love, compassion, patience, tolerance, forgiveness, contentment, responsibility, harmony, and a concern for others).[98]:22 These are aspects of life and human experience which go beyond a purely materialist view of the world without necessarily accepting belief in a supernatural reality or divine being.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual ... cteristics

the part i bolded and coloured above, from your own quote, speaks clearly.

Since 'breath' correlates with 'Spirit'

so because theists once correlated breath with a non-corporeal life force that survived death, we should do the same, and yet in a secular context?

Nor did it ever mean holding one*s breath. We could use pranayama type skills or singing as the measure, both of which require versatile abilities, for example.

Is there any evidence at all that there is a connection between HOLDING one's breath and whatever qualities you associate with being spiritual?

Perhaps a definition of 'spiritual' as you conceive it would be useful

[phyllo]

Since 'breath' correlates with 'Spirit'
therefore the effectiveness of one's breath correlates to one's level of spirituality [secular].

One basic objective measurement of 'spirituality' [secular] is the normal breath retention period. The other is the Maximum breath retention period.

Why not measure spirituality by counting the number of hardboiled eggs a person can eat in one hour?

(Since 'eggs' correlate with 'life'.)

Of course, the question remains ... "why does a person need to measure 'spirituality'?

[Venture]

Eggs do not correlate to life as much as the biblical examples of breath and water. Without breath and water, which was in abundance in the nile, indus river, and fertile crescent, there would be no opportunity for massive growth in human population. A growth that has been so unprecedented and seemingly random, that it would be foolish to consider eggs comparable. 'God-breathed' originating from Paul in ancient Greek, refers the Holy Spirit utilizing a person's psyche, God speaking through them into text and people gatherings. To measure spirituality is to measure the ability of oneself to open themselves for being a vessel of the Spirit. A vessel that transmits goodness and love and teaching, rather than the anger and grief found in the OT. Unfortunately, people like to relate this idea with the supernatural, for which no scientific theory nor common sense should take seriously, neither do I.

I hate the contemporary treatment of the word spirituality. Catch phrase for supernatural snake oil salesmen. An out for anti-Christian atheists who think their morally superior to the rest of the world, suffering from personal issues hidden deep in their heavy hearts. A way for well-read posturing folks to define their understanding of the evolution of myth on the human psyche.

I really like the idea KT mentioned in singing as a measure. The effectiveness of the breath does not equal the measurement of the spiritual ability, mainly because breath is defined too literally with secular etymology here, and spiritual is defined with difficulty due to its modern parallel with supernatural garbage that obfuscates the very real idea of a spirit within every human that breathes and speaks, through music and apprehension of the elements and interactions with other humans.

[Prismatic567]

The dictionary meaning is too crude. However note the origin;

Origin
Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French, from Latin spiritus ‘breath, spirit’, from spirare ‘breathe’.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/spirit

In a more refine philosophical consideration, note here is where 'spirit' correlates with 'breath.'

Sure, however the words breath and spirit have diverged. For them, back then, they were the same. They were all religious back then. When the final breathe was exhaled the spirit left the body. The soul/the person did not die. IOW why use the meanings that theists correlated to justify a secular use of the word, especially since the word no longer is coupled to the breath. It's an odd appeal to authority for a non-theist. And further, odd since there are other options that do not have religions/supernatural overtones.

It is noted the word 'spirituality' is a VERY loose term. However it is a term I find to be suited to what I intended to convey from the secular perspective, i.e.

It's not a secular word. It might make sense if you were communicating to people back then. However, they would assume you meant BOTH connotations not just the air and process of breathing. There are perfectly good words for secular belief systems and control of one's will or whatever one's specific philosophy is. But in a secular system using the word spirituality is not just confusing, it is cake and eat it too.

Nah! you are being too selective and bias.
Note the above wiki article where 'spirit' = 'breath' originated from the Greeks, Hindus.
Generally in the past religion and spirituality were closely related. Note Greeks may not necessary has religious connotations. The Hindus and Buddhists were not necessary theistic but very relevant to philosophy.

The point that 'spirit' is related to 'breath' is very primal and instinctive.

That it veered toward the religious and theism is a later activity. Note there are many other meanings related to 'spirit.'

Note within etymology, a word cannot have any meaning as long as it is agreed by a group of people.

In the case of spirit = breath, I have a good reasons to bring back its primal and instinctive roots and to seek consensus. Note there are already consensus there are people who accept the concept to modern spirituality that has nothing to do with religion or theism, see below.

Modern spirituality is centered on the "deepest values and meanings by which people live."[96] It embraces the idea of an ultimate or an alleged immaterial reality.[97] It envisions an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of his/her being.

Not all modern notions of spirituality embrace transcendental ideas. Secular spirituality emphasizes humanistic ideas on moral character (qualities such as love, compassion, patience, tolerance, forgiveness, contentment, responsibility, harmony, and a concern for others).[98]:22

These are aspects of life and human experience which go beyond a purely materialist view of the world without necessarily accepting belief in a supernatural reality or divine being.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual ... cteristics

the part i bolded and coloured above, from your own quote, speaks clearly.

There are various meanings and as I have stated I am tracing the term back to the original instincts and I chose the meaning bolded in black above.

As I had stated meaning of words are a matter of group consensus and as long as the definition is stated clearly, there is no issue.

Note I stated and qualified breath [spirit] is a necessary foundation of spirituality.

Since 'breath' correlates with 'Spirit'

so because theists once correlated breath with a non-corporeal life force that survived death, we should do the same, and yet in a secular context?

Nor did it ever mean holding one*s breath. We could use pranayama type skills or singing as the measure, both of which require versatile abilities, for example.

Is there any evidence at all that there is a connection between HOLDING one's breath and whatever qualities you associate with being spiritual?

Perhaps a definition of 'spiritual' as you conceive it would be useful

There is a connection between holding one's breath and spirituality.
To do understand the correlation, one has to understand the anatomy involved, the principles, the mechanics and processes of breathing.

One crude clue is;
a person will breathe heavily, short of breath, run out of breath, and panic when under stress, threats or fears and these are all negative states that are antithetic to spirituality/well being. A highly spiritual person will breath calmly and not be heavily disturbed in those states.

There are loads more information to substantiate why breath = spirituality which we have yet to look into. I have done very serious research into this subject.

Note good breathing states [high NRP or MRP] do not necessary represent high spirituality, but it is a necessary foundation for high spirituality.
This meant that if one has very low NRP or MRP, it is very likely one will have a very shaky spiritual [secular, religious, theistic] foundation. Nb: This varies in degrees.

[Prismatic567]

I hate the contemporary treatment of the word spirituality. Catch phrase for supernatural snake oil salesmen. An out for anti-Christian atheists who think their morally superior to the rest of the world, suffering from personal issues hidden deep in their heavy hearts. A way for well-read posturing folks to define their understanding of the evolution of myth on the human psyche.

It is not wise to have such dogmatic ideas with the meaning of a word, e.g. 'spirituality' since there is a primal and instinctive relation between spirit and breath.
There should be no issue unless the word and meaning represent something contradictory or it unrealistic, e.g. Condemnation and critiques of Islam as "Islamophobia" when it is rational to fear Islam the ideology [not Muslims].

In any case, I am willing to accept your alternative word that relates 'breath' as a foundation to personal well-being.

I really like the idea KT mentioned in singing as a measure. The effectiveness of the breath does not equal the measurement of the spiritual ability, mainly because breath is defined too literally with secular etymology here, and spiritual is defined with difficulty due to its modern parallel with supernatural garbage that obfuscates the very real idea of a spirit within every human that breathes and speaks, through music and apprehension of the elements and interactions with other humans.

I agree 'breathing competence' do not necessary equal spiritual ability, note I wrote this in the earlier post;

"Note good breathing states [high NRP or MRP] do not necessary represent high spirituality, but it is a necessary foundation for high spirituality.
This meant that if one has very low NRP or MRP, it is very likely one will have a very shaky spiritual [secular, religious, theistic] foundation. Nb: This varies in degrees."

[phyllo]

Eggs do not correlate to life as much as the biblical examples of breath and water.

Okay, then why not measure spirituality by the about of water that a person can drink continuously before stopping?

All these tests are based on some tenuous relationship between a physical action and spirituality.

The key questions still remain unanswered ... What is spirituality? Specifically, what is spirituality in the case of people who are materialists? Why do you want to, or need to, measure spirituality?

[Karpel Tunnel]

"Note good breathing states [high NRP or MRP] do not necessary represent high spirituality, but it is a necessary foundation for high spirituality.
This meant that if one has very low NRP or MRP, it is very likely one will have a very shaky spiritual [secular, religious, theistic] foundation. Nb: This varies in degrees."

So it is a necessary quality, but not a sufficient one. But it seems to me someone with asthma och emphesyma could still have deep spiritual qualities. In fact I think it would be odd if someone with a lung condition could not be as spiritual and someone at the highest levels. I can't demonstrate that, but it sounds odd to me, and I haven't seen the opposite demonstrated. I doubt it is necessary condition - the ability to hold ones breath a long time.

And what kind of spirituality. It is not as if there is one kind.

Not breathing is statis, lack of participation, restriction, fighting one's nature.

Now you could certainly base a spirituality on such qualities. But one could also build one on the opposite.

[Venture]

Eggs do not correlate to life as much as the biblical examples of breath and water.

Okay, then why not measure spirituality by the about of water that a person can drink continuously before stopping?

All these tests are based on some tenuous relationship between a physical action and spirituality.

The key questions still remain unanswered ... What is spirituality? Specifically, what is spirituality in the case of people who are materialists? Why do you want to, or need to, measure spirituality?

Similar to what P-567 is getting at, its about a controlled and disciplined experience, rather than measuring who can take the most. Harnessing the tao and channeling the spirit. Just because someone has an oxygen intake condition doesn't mean that they cannot learn to adapt and practice meditation and controlled breathing, outside of difficult situations that worsen their condition.

Take singing as an example for a disciplinary action. Controlled breathing from the gut rather than the lungs, an outward expression of thought and tone, conveying a message that affects matter in wavelengths, human psyche, and even animals and plants.

Swimming is therapeutic for similar reasons. Its not about holding your breath under water or breathing so fast that you can beat Michael Phelps, but a relaxation of the muscles and bone fibers, stretching your entire body for an aerobic experience, which delivers oxygen for sometimes under-oxygenated parts and increasing our bodies overall capacity of breath over time.

Instead of thinking of it as taking in the most water, how about getting enough water? Humans are mostly water, and dehydration is a major problem. Over hydration is seldom heard of, in which case we'd call it drowning, or totally destroying our gut function and stomach capacity.

It is difficult for me to reconcile materialism and spirituality because I've seldom had personal experience or research to draw from. Although I've been an atheist and a rationalist in the past, believing in distant interactions that exist rationally but not as immediate corporeal sense perception, I don't know enough about materialism to give phyllo a good answer. We can discuss more, I love discussion, but I see an issue with materialists putting too much importance on falsifiable empirical evidence, leading to a disenchanted worldview. Disenchanted is not to say that there are supernatural and paranormal activities, but more so a belief of things incorporeal that sometimes exist outside of our current human understanding and/or outside of our immediate sense perception.

[Prismatic567]

"Note good breathing states [high NRP or MRP] do not necessary represent high spirituality, but it is a necessary foundation for high spirituality.
This meant that if one has very low NRP or MRP, it is very likely one will have a very shaky spiritual [secular, religious, theistic] foundation. Nb: This varies in degrees."

So it is a necessary quality, but not a sufficient one. But it seems to me someone with asthma och emphesyma could still have deep spiritual qualities. In fact I think it would be odd if someone with a lung condition could not be as spiritual and someone at the highest levels. I can't demonstrate that, but it sounds odd to me, and I haven't seen the opposite demonstrated. I doubt it is necessary condition - the ability to hold ones breath a long time.

Unless it is some kind of serious physical blockage of the breathing tube or muscles, I believe those with typical asthma do not have a high level of spiritual competence.
A person with a higher spiritual competence who would have breath control as the basic exercise will not suffer from any severe form of asthma.

Note, there are loads of research that had shown breathing exercise has alleviated asthma sufferers, one example;

This review summarises the current evidence of effectiveness of breathing exercises programmes as an adjuvant treatment to pharmacological strategies for people with asthma. The types of breathing training programmes used and the content of effective programmes are discussed.
We conclude that patients whose asthma continues to cause symptoms and quality-of-life impairment, despite adequate pharmacological treatment, or who have high bronchodilator use, should be offered access to an effective breathing training programme as a part of holistic, integrated asthma care.
https://breathe.ersjournals.com/content/10/4/312

From the above, in various spiritual practices where general and sophisticated breathing techniques are given more serious attention, the likely hood of asthma sufferers would be very rare among them.

And what kind of spirituality. It is not as if there is one kind.

Not breathing is statis, lack of participation, restriction, fighting one's nature.

Now you could certainly base a spirituality on such qualities. But one could also build one on the opposite.

Note I have presented secular spirituality as follows;

Modern spirituality is centered on the "deepest values and meanings by which people live."[96]
...[unrelated deleted]...

Secular spirituality emphasizes humanistic ideas on moral character (qualities such as love, compassion, patience, tolerance, forgiveness, contentment, responsibility, harmony, and a concern for others).[98]:22
These are aspects of life and human experience which go beyond a purely materialist view of the world without necessarily accepting belief in a supernatural reality or divine being.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual ... cteristics

Secular spirituality would enable a person to operate positively in an optimal level in every aspects of one's life within the collective.

If we add God or deity to the above, then the same would be religious or theistic spirituality.

Note I stated;
the ability [degree] to hold one's breath is imperative as a foundation of one's spirituality especially at the highest level of spirituality.
As such if one's ability to hold one's breath is not above the normal NRP, then one may have a certain degree of spirituality [say 4/10] but cannot reach >8/10 degree of spirituality.
Thus a person who is theistic or religious which do not incorporate breathing exercise as a norm is not likely to have a high NRP [note exceptions] and therefore not likely to achieve the highest levels of spirituality.

For example the Pope may be regarded as highly spiritual within the Catholic Denomination, but because Catholicism generally do not promote serious technical breathing exercise, a general Catholic will not achieve a high level of spirituality [as defined].

Btw, have you to measure your average NRP as in
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=194655
It is <30 >30 or>60 seconds?
If below 30 seconds, it is likely you don't have a high percentile of spirituality [as defined above]

What is interesting with the above measurement is, it is objective and provide opportunity and room for improvement of one's spiritual foundation when it is related to spirituality in general [as defined].

The exception is one can improve one's NRP and MRP outside the scope of specific spiritual perspective, e.g. singing, freediving [deep], various sports, etc. Note the peak performers of these activities also reported 'spiritual' experience [flow, oneness with team, etc.] but they do emphasize on the 'spiritual' aspects of it since their main objectives are non-spiritual.

[Prismatic567]

Similar to what P-567 is getting at, its about a controlled and disciplined experience, rather than measuring who can take the most. Harnessing the tao and channeling the spirit. Just because someone has an oxygen intake condition doesn't mean that they cannot learn to adapt and practice meditation and controlled breathing, outside of difficult situations that worsen their condition.

This subject can get very technical.
On the contrary, breath control is not so much about oxygen [agree it is important] but more about CO2 tolerance.

Take singing as an example for a disciplinary action. Controlled breathing from the gut rather than the lungs, an outward expression of thought and tone, conveying a message that affects matter in wavelengths, human psyche, and even animals and plants.

Swimming is therapeutic for similar reasons. Its not about holding your breath under water or breathing so fast that you can beat Michael Phelps, but a relaxation of the muscles and bone fibers, stretching your entire body for an aerobic experience, which delivers oxygen for sometimes under-oxygenated parts and increasing our bodies overall capacity of breath over time.

Yes, swimming, freediving and other sports can increase one breath retention period and hold/deliver more oxygen in the blood to enhance performance.
In the 'spiritual' perspective, it is more about CO2 tolerance, not about oxygen levels.

When there is the slightest build up of CO2, the inherent CO2 detector is triggered by the autonomic system which invoke a sense of urgency and panic to breathe.
This program is related to an existential crisis, i.e. no air = a threat of death.
The NRP [normal retention period] is thus one's natural marker to avoid an existential crisis.
There is also a oxygen [fresh] detector, thus when it detect fresh air the urgency and panic is lessened and then a sense of relief.

Note the body can still survive from real brain death without air for at least 5 minutes [there are evidences of longer periods], so why an uncontrollable involuntary panic of death at say 30 seconds?

Thus from the above we can infer those with low NRP e.g. <30 seconds has a high sensitivity to an INVOLUNTARY [subconscious] threat of death, i.e. an existential crisis.

One of my thesis;
This existential crisis is based on an INVOLUNTARY [subconscious] threat of death generate Angst that trigger theists to cling to a God to relieve the sufferings and thus feeling psychological comforts.
The belief in a God provide a sense of relief to the inherent existential threat.
Thus a belief in God is more do with the physiology and psychological than there is a real pre-existing God waiting for believers to believe in that God.

Note in contrast, Buddhism is non-theistic and do not use God as a relief but rather focus on meditation with special emphasis of breathing, i.e. CO2 tolerance and control.
Note,

Ānāpānasati (Pali; Sanskrit ānāpānasmṛti), meaning "mindfulness of breathing" ("sati" means mindfulness; "ānāpāna" refers to inhalation and exhalation[1]), is a form of Buddhist meditation originally taught by Gautama Buddha in several suttas including the Ānāpānasati Sutta.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati

It is difficult for me to reconcile materialism and spirituality because I've seldom had personal experience or research to draw from. Although I've been an atheist and a rationalist in the past, believing in distant interactions that exist rationally but not as immediate corporeal sense perception, I don't know enough about materialism to give phyllo a good answer. We can discuss more, I love discussion, but I see an issue with materialists putting too much importance on falsifiable empirical evidence, leading to a disenchanted worldview. Disenchanted is not to say that there are supernatural and paranormal activities, but more so a belief of things incorporeal that sometimes exist outside of our current human understanding and/or outside of our immediate sense perception.

What is materiality is obvious from the Physics perspective.
I have defined spirituality as above and the qualities related are very evident within humans.
Thus it is a fact, the spiritual qualities are emergent from the existing materials.
At present there are loads of research to substantiate and relate those spiritual qualities to the material [sets of neurons in the brain]. Mirror neurons are related to empathy.
What we lack at present is precision to identify the role of the average 100 billion neurons each with up to 10,000 connectors [synapses] in relation to the various spiritual emergent.

I am optimistic soon we will be able to map the relation between mental activities and the precise set of neurons involved, note the progress of the,
Human Connectome Project | Mapping the human brain connectivity
http://www.humanconnectomeproject.org/

[Venture]

The practice of prayer and music in Christianity is superior to the Buddhist emphasis on breath in meditation, if we are to take the former more seriously, although I love both ideas.

Problem with your thesis, one isn't always a theist before they're subconsciously triggered, anyone can have a religious experience if they're close to drowning or about to jump off a tall building (what would induce your low NRP idea). Jesus Christ relieves the suffering of sin and death, not God. God is outside of all of our possible understandings, given our inevitable limitation in perception forever, with momentary glimpses into a dream world we mistake for supernatural or divine. The mistaking of other realms and new knowledge is uniquely human. The words supernatural and divine, paired with 'spirituality', have really done a number on Christianity since post-modernism became popular (new age, scientology, esotericism, literal biblical interpretations, toxic fundamentalists, religious fear and violence abroad etc.). Graciousness never needed to be popular anyway, but that's irrelevant to this so I'll leave that for another discussion.

Those pesky numbers again. How many possible neural pathways? John Dee mapped out the sea for us, and I hope someone maps out space. Unfortunately, our egotistical perplexion with the squishy grey matter between our ears is the contemporary mapping obsession, and maybe AI will try to challenge it soon. Its funny how the material presupposes all thought in your world, and that a being outside of our perception doesn't exist. Temporal fragments will get in the way of a full understanding and marriage of the spiritual and the material. I've had grief and sadness over this, the recognition of sin and death in all things human, and the recognition of everyone's fear of the words Jesus Christ.

Your idea of an existential threat is only one of many ways to enhance your spiritual capabilities in this NRP you like to mention. Some people get 30 second warning, others a 2 minute warning. A time before you pass, the release of dmt, the unharnessing of the soul, the experience of the divine.

Obviously I disagree with your main point in your other thread, entitled "Spiritual Breathing versus God", in which you deny the one true God, without mentioning the truth in Jesus Christ, focusing more on the scientific realm of explaining away the spiritual. Secularization undermines the foundations of what makes us human, the bewilderment of all things known and unknown, the strive towards moral virtue, our relation to death and immoral actions, the treatment of sex for procreation versus recreation, our journeys through time and foreign lands and ourselves. Scientific rhetoric bores me, we've traded the 7 liberal arts for hard sciences. I really like where this discussion is going and appreciate the absence of ridicule. Normally, I'd be afraid of proclaiming my beliefs because of ridicule and cherry picking so others can have polemic superiority. I hope the Human Connectome Project does good, instead of manipulating and bastardizing the beauty of our brains. There are lots of autists and schizophrenics that need our help.

[Prismatic567]

The practice of prayer and music in Christianity is superior to the Buddhist emphasis on breath in meditation, if we are to take the former more seriously, although I love both ideas.

Perhaps some fringe Christian mysticism may have some form of breathing exercises [need conformation] but Christianity in general do not involve any technical breathing exercise at all. Basic prayers and singing in Churches for most do not engage serious breathing techniques except for the better singers and members of the choir.

In Buddhism, basic breathing in meditation is necessary for even the lay Buddhists and breathing techniques in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati
can be VERY complex and sophisticated. It is the same for pranayama within Hinduism.

Problem with your thesis, one isn't always a theist before they're subconsciously triggered, anyone can have a religious experience if they're close to drowning or about to jump off a tall building (what would induce your low NRP idea).

Jesus Christ relieves the suffering of sin and death, not God.
God is outside of all of our possible understandings, given our inevitable limitation in perception forever, with momentary glimpses into a dream world we mistake for supernatural or divine. The mistaking of other realms and new knowledge is uniquely human. The words supernatural and divine, paired with 'spirituality', have really done a number on Christianity since post-modernism became popular (new age, scientology, esotericism, literal biblical interpretations, toxic fundamentalists, religious fear and violence abroad etc.). Graciousness never needed to be popular anyway, but that's irrelevant to this so I'll leave that for another discussion.

DNA wise, the CO2 detector is inherent in ALL human beings to detect any early warning of any threat to the lack of oxygen to sustain survival.
The majority of humans has a low tolerance for and is very sensitive to changes in CO2 level so that one do not have to wait for the real emergency to happen, thus one is prompted to early action so this feature adapted for survival.
Note those who have a defective CO2 detector can hold their breath till they suffer a blackout or die.

The con side of a very sensitive and low tolerance for changes in CO2 level is that sensitivity towards a potential existential threat create side effects within the brain that generate existential Angst reverberating throughout the brain. These Angst and anxieties create a vacuum that need to be filled and covered up and the resultant is a belief in God which immediately provide relief to the Angst and existential anxieties.
This is very fundamental, that is why 85% of humans on Earth are theists.

True, those who are less sensitive to CO2 or due to various reasons that inhibit the CO2 detector impulses and are not triggered toward an existential crisis thus no theism [not serious or non-theistic]. But these people can be triggered with an existential crisis when their inhibitors are weaken due to old age & atrophy, some traumatic event, in a fox hole and other situation where they are driven to theism.
Note one example;
The older one is, the greater toward theism, due to weakening of inhibitors;
https://www.livescience.com/19971-belie ... m-age.html

On the other hand, those who deliberately manage their CO2 tolerance sensitivity effectively through management of breathing, will not be driven toward theism, e.g. Buddhism and others.

I am not a Christian. I understand the Trinity as three in one like H20 [God], clouds[HS], water [Jesus] are different form with the same essence. Jesus had claimed he is God in the essence-form model.

I have no issue with people believing in Jesus and Christianity which has an overriding pacifist maxim in the present circumstances, but the ideology of Islam must be seriously critiqued.

However in the longer run, theists must understand the following;

God is an Impossibilty to be real
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=193474&hilit=god+impossibility#p2683202

and that the impulse to believe in a God is due to physiological and psychological reasons which can be managed, thus preventing the extreme evils of Islamic theism.

Those pesky numbers again. How many possible neural pathways? John Dee mapped out the sea for us, and I hope someone maps out space. Unfortunately, our egotistical perplexion with the squishy grey matter between our ears is the contemporary mapping obsession, and maybe AI will try to challenge it soon. Its funny how the material presupposes all thought in your world, and that a being outside of our perception doesn't exist. Temporal fragments will get in the way of a full understanding and marriage of the spiritual and the material. I've had grief and sadness over this, the recognition of sin and death in all things human, and the recognition of everyone's fear of the words Jesus Christ.

I don't see any issue and we are dealing with facts.
It is objective because the number of neurons in the brain can be easily estimated with the latest and advanced machines within the neurosciences.

Your idea of an existential threat is only one of many ways to enhance your spiritual capabilities in this NRP you like to mention. Some people get 30 second warning, others a 2 minute warning. A time before you pass, the release of dmt, the unharnessing of the soul, the experience of the divine.

Like the point on DMT. I have raised an OP on DMT - the Spiritual Molecule, re natural and via drugs, hallucinogens, etc..
When one do the relevant breathing exercises, meditation, there are releases of natural DMT.

Actually there is an Existential Crisis as a main set involving its respective variables, the existential crisis related to NRP and MRP is a subset.

The critical point here is to understand the principles and mechanics surrounding how the inherent involuntary CO2 detector is triggered and then to manage and modulate it and where possible increase it from 30 seconds to 2 minutes to 4 minutes, 7+ minutes [ordinary air] or to 22 minutes [world record with breathing oxygen].

Once a person can manage and modulate the CO2 tolerance level, one will have less propensity towards theism or can give it up easily when needed to do so.

Obviously I disagree with your main point in your other thread, entitled "Spiritual Breathing versus God", in which you deny the one true God, without mentioning the truth in Jesus Christ, focusing more on the scientific realm of explaining away the spiritual. Secularization undermines the foundations of what makes us human, the bewilderment of all things known and unknown, the strive towards moral virtue, our relation to death and immoral actions, the treatment of sex for procreation versus recreation, our journeys through time and foreign lands and ourselves. Scientific rhetoric bores me, we've traded the 7 liberal arts for hard sciences. I really like where this discussion is going and appreciate the absence of ridicule. Normally, I'd be afraid of proclaiming my beliefs because of ridicule and cherry picking so others can have polemic superiority. I hope the Human Connectome Project does good, instead of manipulating and bastardizing the beauty of our brains. There are lots of autists and schizophrenics that need our help.

I am not using Science to explain away God.

I have demonstrated God is a non-starter, i.e. moot, thus there cannot be any possibility of the existence of a real God.

God is an Impossibilty to be real
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=193474&hilit=god+impossibility#p2683202

I am always for rational arguments discussions and will not attack unless the other posters do it first. I have loads of arguments on hand to keep me busy instead of resorting to personal attacks.

If you follow the Human Connectome Project, there are already progress but expected to be slow due to the complexity of the human brain. However even if some percentage of achievement, e.g. 50% over existing status will bring forth a lot of potentials.
Neuroscientists has already fully mapped 100% of the brain of various living things so it is a matter of time for the human brain.
The Human Genome was once thought to be impossible, but not it is already a reality since many years ago, this success should generate optimism for the Human Connectome Project.