Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

Gloominary wrote:
Taxing the rich to pay for the poor would likely never affect you, except that it might raise your wages and make society a healthier, smarter, and happier place.

Anyway you slice it, the rest of society will have to, not only pay more tax, but work harder.

Nope. I've been through the numbers on this. Raise taxes on the top, cut taxes on the middle, institute negative tax on the bottom. Most people are better off than before.

But the point I really want to highlight here is that even though my plan involves a taxcut for any class you could ever aspire to inhabit, and raise your wages, and increase the health and education of society, you STILL wouldn't go along with it because the principle has been completely overlooked, which is to make the poor suffer; that's all you care about and that's all the Right cares about. Just like the baby video showed that the kid was willing to take less tokens for himself if it meant the other kid gets even less.

You will make your own life harder just to make the poor suffer.

I want to make things fairer, not differently unfair.

Your definition of fair is who licks the most boots gets the rewards. Ones who refuse to lick boots gets no reward.

We shouldn't tax employees to pay for the voluntarily unemployed, and if employers are paying employees a fair wage, than they shouldn't be taxed either.

"Fair wage" here has the meaning of a wage determined by the most desperate worker underbidding all others.
"Fair wage" here does NOT mean a fair division of the value of the final product. Nor does "fair" mean that the employee agreed to any such divisions, but the terms are "fairly" shoved down his throat.

Some shouldn't have to worker harder to feed, clothe and take care of society because others won't pull their weight.

Yes, get to work licking those boots you feckless maggots!

I don't just want a more equal distribution of money, I want a more equal distribution of work.

Oh goodie... a corner for everyone to stand on.

But you need to punish the lazy.

Yes, how diabolical of me.

Indeed.

Sexual selection is a natural process. There is no one who determined what primitive humans should consider sexy in order to advance the species in the right direction.

Altho genes play a major role in determining us, I'm not a genetic reductionist, our genes are dynamic and help determine our (sub)conscious behavior, and our (sub)conscious behavior, including sexual, is dynamic and helps determine our genes.
Our culture and environment shapes us, but we in turn shape our culture and environment, it's a two way street.

Sure, but who shaped the environment to specifically favor white people? Who said, "We need to rally together to shape our environment to favor the white humanoids. This must be teleological because if left to chance, blacks might become smarter and we can't have that!" Like I said, no one gets any credit.

The only reason whites are being oppressed is that they're uneducated and proud of it.

even liberal whites supposedly have white privilege and are racist, I'm not making this stuff up, believe me I really wish I was, I couldn't even if I tried:

I can't imagine that's prolific.

What has people pissed is the arrogant old white men who think they can, for example, tax tv in order to be fair to corporations. Old white men are being replaced by brown women all across the country because what they lack in brains they more than make up for in having heart and consideration. That's a trade I'd make any day. It's a standing offer: I'll trade 1 redneck for 10 mexicans. All day, every day. Good riddance!

Now, you can shove your head in a hole in refusal to see my point or continue thinking it's irrational white guilt like the video you posted. It really makes no difference to me since I'm just doing you the favor of cluing you in.

I don't feel guilty for slavery, but I can't stand those arrogant codgers thinking everything is common sense. Zero to do with guilt.
Serendipper
Philosopher

Posts: 1720
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:30 pm

Gloominary wrote:
The point isn't that a utopia can be created, the point is that servitude can be eliminated. It could have been 40 years ago.

Servitude can't be eliminated, either it can be equal, fair, unequal or unfair.

What evidence do you have to support the assertion that servitude cannot be eliminated? What? Because machines are making so much more work to do? That by the year 3000 we will be working 24 hrs a day because of such scarcity? Pft.

Friedman visited one of those statist countries back in the 70s and said "Why not replace all those shoveling workers with a machine?" The reply was, "Well, we're not really trying to accomplish anything but to provide jobs." Friedman replied, "In that case, why not give them spoons to shovel with?"

The point of jobs is not to provide jobs, but to do a job. Once the job is done, it's done. Everyone can go home now. We don't have to work just because you say so because we need some justification for our handouts. 90% of the jobs done are just digging holes and filling them in so that people can suffer for money. That's what it's all about.

The job of the machine is to make drudgery unnecessary.

Agreed.

How can you agree without suffering cognitive dissonance? If drudgery is unnecessary, then how can anyone be compelled to do it?

The job of the machine is to reduce drudgery as much as possible, but in 2019 and the foreseeable future, drudgery is still necessary.

But each year, less than before. Tick tock the countdown to a scarcity of scarcity. How will you make people suffer when machines have taken every job? There is no job that a machine can't do. Machines can even do artistic work like writing music, painting.

There are 150 million tax returns filed and 330,000,000 people, so I don't know how to divide the numbers, but the rate would be closer to 50% than 5%.

It's not more authoritarian than taxation now (or ever) and it's not compelling anyone to work harder or softer or compelling anyone to do anything except pay a % of their profits back into the system. Other than that, they're free to do what the hell ever: get a job, don't get a job, get rich, live in mom's basement, go to school, jump off a bridge,,, whatever.

Okay, let's say we improve working conditions and increase wages to make them fair, whatever we as a society decide fair is, which's what we should do.

How are you going to do that? "Let's say"? That's dictation. You cannot dictate wages higher. The only way to raise wages is to increase welfare. Give people more options so the corps have to compel them to work.

Let's say 25% of people provide superfluous goods (and services) for everyone, and 25% of people provide necessary goods for everyone.

Now if 12.5% of the people that provide superfluous goods for everyone, and 12.5% of the people that provide necessary goods for everyone, quit, and live off UBI or go on welfare, what does that entail?

I've asked oodles of people if they would quit their job if the gov sent $10k per year whether they work or not. Only one woman said yes because that's more than she gets now and would rather stay home with her kids. Everyone else would work and get the UBI. I know a woman who has to work with the flu (food service no less, spreading it to the customers) because if she doesn't, she'll lose her job. But with the UBI, she could tell her employer to suck it since if she loses her job, she doesn't starve. And since every other employee can also say that, then the employer would have to be more considerate of people. UBI adds to the power of people. Wages are a function of people's willingness to work. Prices are a function of people's willingness to buy. I don't know which will drop more. So if wages fall less than prices, it'll be a good thing for workers and consumers, and if wages and prices fall equally, it'll be a neutral thing. So it could be a neutral or even a good thing, so why're you worried? Prices can only fall because people do not have enough money to spend. Well,,, competition and automation also lowers prices, but this wouldn't happen in response to elimination of welfare. In response to no welfare, demand would fall off a cliff and prices would follow. Wages would then follow prices down the abyss and who can tell which would be lower. They'll just pay less for the shorter week. They can't really, because we've increased the minimum wage, and we'll continually adjust for inflation. Then everyone will get the minimum and no raises. Or they'll move to another country. How else do you expect companies to hire people to make stuff that no one has the money to buy? Or they might not lower wages in the first place, because they know it'll just mean people won't be able to buy their goods. Companies usually fire people when sales start to drop. Then their stock shoots up because of the elimination of employees. The insiders sell out before sales drop more and the company files bankruptcy. The minimum? That's$7.25. I don't call that "setting wages". A bump up to \$15, I would.

I just want to increase the minimum, not set every wage, altho perhaps we should lower the minimum wage small businesses have to pay.

I agree.

Well, setting prices, wages,

Prices are secondary, wages are primary, if it gets too complicated, we don't have to set prices.
And I only wanted to set them for food and housing.
And I wanted to set them higher for big food and housing than small.
We could also nationalize or unionize big food and housing, and run them more in the interests of workers, consumers and residents.
Just an idea, but the main thing is wages.

It seems much easier to regulate the amount of welfare and the minimum wage. Everything else will be in response to that in a free market.

One more thing about prices, I wanted to have maximum prices for foods and housing, so businesses could charge whatever they want so long as they don't exceed them.

I don't think price caps work either. I haven't researched it, but just took it for granted.

forcing companies to hire, and generally micromanaging the economy is essentially what the communist dictators tried to do.

I don't see why my plan has to entail that.

I think you'll be pushed into micromanaging since every meddling will require more fixing.
Serendipper
Philosopher

Posts: 1720
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:30 pm

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