Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:07 pm

Venture wrote: I have repented, you have not.


How can you know this as a fact?

If you cannot show that, then why should I bother with you when you either lie or are living in your mind reader's fantasy world?

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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:09 pm

felix dakat wrote:
A Shieldmaiden wrote:
A Shieldmaiden wrote:
Greatest wrote:

You ignore that most sages,
including Jesus, had one line for the sheeple and another secret one for the apostles.



Where in the scriptures does it say the above?

Chapter and verse please.
.


Have you learned what Jesus and your bible teaches? I am responding to this question you wrote.

Humour me, show me where in the scriptures including Jesus, "had one line for the sheeple and another secret one for the apostles".

Whenever someone tells you the Bible say this or that and you are not familiar with the verse, the simplest solution is ask to be shown where it is.

So in my ignorance I am asking you to show me. Simple. I don't profess to know the Scriptures that well and I am curious and eager to learn more.


Here's one example:

Mark 4:10-12 New King James Version (NKJV)

But when He [i.e.Jesus] was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, so that

‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’ ”


Oops. I basically duplicated you post before reading down.

Nice that some can research for themselves. Kudos.

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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby bahman » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:29 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
bahman wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

The Bible teaches one to start a spiritual journey from the
bottom, i.e. from a stage where he must consider himself as a born sinner and starts his journey upwards from there. One reaches the second stage when he realises that he is the son and God is his father. The final realisation is when he realises that he and the Father are one.

...

It is impossible that man and father become one unless you lose your sense of identity, self-awareness.


I agree.

That is why when Jesus ascended, that happened in his own mind and not in any physical or miraculous way, he took the judgment seat which basically retires God and is Jesus taking full command.

If you do not like thinking in those esoteric allegorical way, think in terms of you finding what Yung and Freud dubbed the Father Complex, --- which is basically you finding the roots of your instincts, and in a sense, since they are given to you genetically by your parents, you become the Father or Mother you find within you.

Regards
DL


So what does happen when I die and become Him/Jesus?
The sincerity in mind is the door to divine knowledge.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:16 pm

bahman wrote:[
It is impossible that man and father become one unless you lose your sense of identity, self-awareness.


I agree.

That is why when Jesus ascended, that happened in his own mind and not in any physical or miraculous way, he took the judgment seat which basically retires God and is Jesus taking full command.

If you do not like thinking in those esoteric allegorical way, think in terms of you finding what Yung and Freud dubbed the Father Complex, --- which is basically you finding the roots of your instincts, and in a sense, since they are given to you genetically by your parents, you become the Father or Mother you find within you.

Regards
DL
[/quote]

So what does happen when I die and become Him/Jesus?[/quote]

You do not die. Your thinking changes.

That is why it is described as gaining a Christ consciousness or being reborn with a Christ mind.

Joseph Campbell would call it growing into an adult.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby bahman » Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:09 am

Greatest I am wrote:You do not die. Your thinking changes.

That is why it is described as gaining a Christ consciousness or being reborn with a Christ mind.

Joseph Campbell would call it growing into an adult.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

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DL

So we become similar?
The sincerity in mind is the door to divine knowledge.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Gloominary » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:26 am

The Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) are dualistic (not in the Platonic, Gnostic or Cartesian sense), in that they divide existence in two, the uncreated creator, and the created, whereas the Vedic and Sinic religions (Hinduism, Buddhism and Daoism) are (dialectically) monistic.
The creator makes the cosmos, and man in his likeness, but man is still fundamentally distinct from, and inferior to the creator.

I don't know why devotees of eastern philosophy insist on imposing alien concepts onto Judeo-Christian and Islamic thought. :-k
It's tantamount to reverse cultural appropriation. :lol:

I don't know, religious studies would be boring if they were all saying basically the same thing. Some religions don't believe in God, or even the soul, like Buddhism. I think the only thing they may all share is that if they don't believe in the supernatural, they at least believe in some higher plane of understanding one can attain.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Venture » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:28 am

Maybe the secret was the first-hand experience of miracles being performed. Otherwise, we take it as parable and metaphor, a consequence of living a life of forgiveness and love.

Greatest tells me I lie or believe in a fake mind reader world. You could have said yes or no, but instead you attacked me personally for claiming you haven't repented. I'm sorry.

They know the mystery because they were there with Him in person. You think it is a deeper parable about an inward becoming of Jesus, that you can become like a God and perform miracles. I have had trouble becoming like Jesus because of my vices of money lust, sexuality obfuscating my relationships, and doing too much or too little of things like drugs, travelling, or eating. You would be lying if you told me you are of a different breed, someone who has no passions for attaining worldly temporary pleasures.

For gloomy, lets keep Judeo-Christian traditions separate from the rest, especially Islam. I see Judaism as dualistic at times, and Christianity as a three in one religion. The rest in the west are divergences amongst number, science, and political deception. I'd love to learn more about Buddhism and Tao, but in small doses with my study of Biblical languages, history, and archaeology. The supernatural has been a way to explain away what we don't know, and a higher plane of understanding is attempting to explain the pareto distribution applied to information and knowledge, that only a few will be the smartest and claim wisdom.
"Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
"
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:15 pm

bahman wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:You do not die. Your thinking changes.

That is why it is described as gaining a Christ consciousness or being reborn with a Christ mind.

Joseph Campbell would call it growing into an adult.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

Regards
DL

So we become similar?


Better as that older version of Jesus is quite immoral if you look at his moral tents that are not moral at all. That Jesus is just a Roman invention though. I particularly dislike his no divorce and substitutionary punishment policies.

I like the other Jesus who is more of an Eastern thinking sage who would have use seek knowledge and wisdom instead of a free ride into heaven by using him as a scapegoat.

Here is how that good/better Jesus is portrayed as saying.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:19 pm

Gloominary wrote:The Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) are dualistic (not in the Platonic, Gnostic or Cartesian sense), in that they divide existence in two, the uncreated creator, and the created, whereas the Vedic and Sinic religions (Hinduism, Buddhism and Daoism) are (dialectically) monistic.
The creator makes the cosmos, and man in his likeness, but man is still fundamentally distinct from, and inferior to the creator.

I don't know why devotees of eastern philosophy insist on imposing alien concepts onto Judeo-Christian and Islamic thought. :-k
It's tantamount to reverse cultural appropriation. :lol:

I don't know, religious studies would be boring if they were all saying basically the same thing. Some religions don't believe in God, or even the soul, like Buddhism. I think the only thing they may all share is that if they don't believe in the supernatural, they at least believe in some higher plane of understanding one can attain.


True. I call that Gnosis. It is for adults while the supernaturalstupid thinking is for children.

Have a look at the links in the post just above.

Let me add a bit more for you below.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D

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DL
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:23 pm

Venture wrote:Maybe the secret was the first-hand experience of miracles being performed. Otherwise, we take it as parable and metaphor, a consequence of living a life of forgiveness and love.

Greatest tells me I lie or believe in a fake mind reader world. You could have said yes or no, but instead you attacked me personally for claiming you haven't repented. I'm sorry.

They know the mystery because they were there with Him in person. You think it is a deeper parable about an inward becoming of Jesus, that you can become like a God and perform miracles. I have had trouble becoming like Jesus because of my vices of money lust, sexuality obfuscating my relationships, and doing too much or too little of things like drugs, travelling, or eating. You would be lying if you told me you are of a different breed, someone who has no passions for attaining worldly temporary pleasures.

For gloomy, lets keep Judeo-Christian traditions separate from the rest, especially Islam. I see Judaism as dualistic at times, and Christianity as a three in one religion. The rest in the west are divergences amongst number, science, and political deception. I'd love to learn more about Buddhism and Tao, but in small doses with my study of Biblical languages, history, and archaeology. The supernatural has been a way to explain away what we don't know, and a higher plane of understanding is attempting to explain the pareto distribution applied to information and knowledge, that only a few will be the smartest and claim wisdom.


I do not differentiate as you suggest and just look at both ideologies.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk

Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.

Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes. Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.

"that you can become like a God and perform miracles."

Eh. No. I am not a brain dead theist.

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DL
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:26 am

Felix and Greatest

Jesus said, Mark 4:11 “Unto you, it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to them,” the rebellious, the wicked, “that are without, that these things are done in parables. That seeing they might see and not perceive and hearing, they might hear and not understand.”

Why did Jesus use parables?
In Mark 4 verse 11 and 12, Jesus is saying that he is teaching in parables so that the people may understand, to make it as simple as it can be to teach the truth.

The article on Parables in Smith's Bible Dict. explains this very clearly.

The parable differs from the fable (1) in excluding brute and inanimate creatures passing out of the laws of their nature and speaking or acting like men; (2) in its higher ethical significance. It differs from the allegory in that the latter, with its direct personification of ideas or attributes, and the names which designate them, involves really no comparison. The virtues and vices of mankind appear as in a drama, in their own character and costume. The allegory is self-interpreting; the parable demands attention, insight, sometimes an actual explanation. It differs from a proverb in that it must include a similitude of some kind, while the proverb may assert, without a similitude, some wide generalization of experience.--ED.) For some months Jesus taught in the synagogues and on the seashore of Galilee as he had before taught in Jerusalem, and as yet without a parable. But then there came a change. The direct teaching was met with scorn unbelief hardness, and he seemed for a time to abandon it for that which took the form of parables. The worth of parables as instruments of teaching lies in their being at once a test of character and in their presenting each form of character with that which, as a penalty or blessing, is adapted to it. They withdraw the light from those who love darkness. They protect the truth which they enshrine from the mockery of the scoffer. They leave something even with the careless which may be interpreted and understood afterward. They reveal on the other hand, the seekers after truth. These ask the meaning of the parable, and will not rest until the teacher has explained it. In this way the parable did work, found out the fit hearers and led them on. In most of the parables it is possible to trace something like an order.
The man that walks his own road, walks alone

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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby felix dakat » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:45 pm

A Shieldmaiden wrote:Felix and Greatest

Jesus said, Mark 4:11 “Unto you, it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to them,” the rebellious, the wicked, “that are without, that these things are done in parables. That seeing they might see and not perceive and hearing, they might hear and not understand.”

Why did Jesus use parables?
In Mark 4 verse 11 and 12, Jesus is saying that he is teaching in parables so that the people may understand, to make it as simple as it can be to teach the truth.

The article on Parables in Smith's Bible Dict. explains this very clearly.

The parable differs from the fable (1) in excluding brute and inanimate creatures passing out of the laws of their nature and speaking or acting like men; (2) in its higher ethical significance. It differs from the allegory in that the latter, with its direct personification of ideas or attributes, and the names which designate them, involves really no comparison. The virtues and vices of mankind appear as in a drama, in their own character and costume. The allegory is self-interpreting; the parable demands attention, insight, sometimes an actual explanation. It differs from a proverb in that it must include a similitude of some kind, while the proverb may assert, without a similitude, some wide generalization of experience.--ED.) For some months Jesus taught in the synagogues and on the seashore of Galilee as he had before taught in Jerusalem, and as yet without a parable. But then there came a change. The direct teaching was met with scorn unbelief hardness, and he seemed for a time to abandon it for that which took the form of parables. The worth of parables as instruments of teaching lies in their being at once a test of character and in their presenting each form of character with that which, as a penalty or blessing, is adapted to it. They withdraw the light from those who love darkness. They protect the truth which they enshrine from the mockery of the scoffer. They leave something even with the careless which may be interpreted and understood afterward. They reveal on the other hand, the seekers after truth. These ask the meaning of the parable, and will not rest until the teacher has explained it. In this way the parable did work, found out the fit hearers and led them on. In most of the parables it is possible to trace something like an order.


So your question was just a set up for Smith? Who needs thought when we have Smith's Bible Dictionary? Did you even notice that Smith didn't explain what the parable in question meant? Neither does the passage say that it is referring to the "rebellious" or "the wicked". That's someone's interpretation. If it was your, I say bravo! =D> At least you put that much thought into it. But, if it is merely Smith's then :( . Too bad the disciples didn't have Smith. Smith is the true Gnostic--the one who KNOWS. :wink:

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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:05 pm

To me the issue of the parables is moot in the context of was Jesus or is the Bible or is Christianity really Gnostic.

The reason: If we follow GIA then the supernatural does not exist. Fine. But using parables to support this is extremely problematic. The parables are in the NT and the NT has reporting of miracles performed by or undergone by Jesus. They are not presented as parables. They are not parts of someone's speeches, but reported as events meant to be taken literally. If we listen to intepretations of the parables or sayings that seem to support GIA's position - iow treating the NT as an authority on Jesus - then it's authority goes against the dismissal of the supernatural also.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:47 pm

A Shieldmaiden wrote:Felix and Greatest

Jesus said, Mark 4:11 “Unto you, it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to them,” the rebellious, the wicked, “that are without, that these things are done in parables. That seeing they might see and not perceive and hearing, they might hear and not understand.”

Why did Jesus use parables?
In Mark 4 verse 11 and 12, Jesus is saying that he is teaching in parables so that the people may understand, to make it as simple as it can be to teach the truth.

The article on Parables in Smith's Bible Dict. explains this very clearly.

The parable differs from the fable (1) in excluding brute and inanimate creatures passing out of the laws of their nature and speaking or acting like men; (2) in its higher ethical significance. It differs from the allegory in that the latter, with its direct personification of ideas or attributes, and the names which designate them, involves really no comparison. The virtues and vices of mankind appear as in a drama, in their own character and costume. The allegory is self-interpreting; the parable demands attention, insight, sometimes an actual explanation. It differs from a proverb in that it must include a similitude of some kind, while the proverb may assert, without a similitude, some wide generalization of experience.--ED.) For some months Jesus taught in the synagogues and on the seashore of Galilee as he had before taught in Jerusalem, and as yet without a parable. But then there came a change. The direct teaching was met with scorn unbelief hardness, and he seemed for a time to abandon it for that which took the form of parables. The worth of parables as instruments of teaching lies in their being at once a test of character and in their presenting each form of character with that which, as a penalty or blessing, is adapted to it. They withdraw the light from those who love darkness. They protect the truth which they enshrine from the mockery of the scoffer. They leave something even with the careless which may be interpreted and understood afterward. They reveal on the other hand, the seekers after truth. These ask the meaning of the parable, and will not rest until the teacher has explained it. In this way the parable did work, found out the fit hearers and led them on. In most of the parables it is possible to trace something like an order.


I think Jesus used parables because scriptures say that to perfect ones wisdom, on had to get away from Christian dogma and look elsewhere.

Hebrews 6 King James Version; 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:51 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:To me the issue of the parables is moot in the context of was Jesus or is the Bible or is Christianity really Gnostic.

The reason: If we follow GIA then the supernatural does not exist. Fine. But using parables to support this is extremely problematic. The parables are in the NT and the NT has reporting of miracles performed by or undergone by Jesus. They are not presented as parables. They are not parts of someone's speeches, but reported as events meant to be taken literally. If we listen to intepretations of the parables or sayings that seem to support GIA's position - iow treating the NT as an authority on Jesus - then it's authority goes against the dismissal of the supernatural also.


On the literal reading of myths, I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D

Regards
DL
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Venture » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:15 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Venture wrote:Maybe the secret was the first-hand experience of miracles being performed. Otherwise, we take it as parable and metaphor, a consequence of living a life of forgiveness and love.

Greatest tells me I lie or believe in a fake mind reader world. You could have said yes or no, but instead you attacked me personally for claiming you haven't repented. I'm sorry.

They know the mystery because they were there with Him in person. You think it is a deeper parable about an inward becoming of Jesus, that you can become like a God and perform miracles. I have had trouble becoming like Jesus because of my vices of money lust, sexuality obfuscating my relationships, and doing too much or too little of things like drugs, travelling, or eating. You would be lying if you told me you are of a different breed, someone who has no passions for attaining worldly temporary pleasures.

For gloomy, lets keep Judeo-Christian traditions separate from the rest, especially Islam. I see Judaism as dualistic at times, and Christianity as a three in one religion. The rest in the west are divergences amongst number, science, and political deception. I'd love to learn more about Buddhism and Tao, but in small doses with my study of Biblical languages, history, and archaeology. The supernatural has been a way to explain away what we don't know, and a higher plane of understanding is attempting to explain the pareto distribution applied to information and knowledge, that only a few will be the smartest and claim wisdom.


I do not differentiate as you suggest and just look at both ideologies.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk

Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.

Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes. Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.

"that you can become like a God and perform miracles."

Eh. No. I am not a brain dead theist.

Regards
DL


Forgive my ignorance and pride. I apologize for insulting you and I hope we can learn and help each other, rather than run away from the issues and resort to ad hominem.

I've only begun my journey inward, but I still do not agree with your idea of becoming a God. I understand, that following faith, your holiness increases with works. Your salvation is by faith, but the recognition of your goodness is a process of becoming Christlike. I want to become Christlike, but I know I can never be exactly like him or become him which you seem to think you can. Sadhguru had some interesting things to say, and I have experienced first hand the strengthening of Islam and Christianity by the sword. Good deeds don't give you salvation, faith does, but faith without works will eventually be doubted and works without faith is hollow.

It is common to make claims towards ideology, history, and politics. I'm certain there are still Calvinists who want to rid the world of Arminians. There are Christians who want to rid the world of Muslims, and vice versa. But I have yet to see change on the individual level, of people being more loving and helpful to their communities. I see prices rise and declining self-judgment, a lack of connection to nature and honest intellectual discussion.

Ecumenism is usually ironic, I've yet to have a positive experience from someone claiming to be ecumenical. Christianity has the opportunity to become the superior humanity centered religion, but politics and scriptural idolatry risk its purity. Scientists who claim intellectual superiority for their atheism usually have a slave-master morality and some pride, envy, and hatred in their hearts.
"Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
"
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:00 am

Greatest wrote:
I think Jesus used parables because scriptures say that to perfect ones wisdom, one had to get away from Christian dogma and look elsewhere.

Hebrews 6 King James Version;
1. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


My understanding of Hebrews 6:1-2 King James Version (KJV)

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Leave the discourse of the beginning of Christ, (the more you study the scriptures the more in depth it becomes, books could be written on chapters alone) as the 'perfection' intended is the full growth of those who are mature in Christian knowledge and there is no need for a foundation to be laid a second time. Repentance is the first lesson of the Gospel and faith is also one of the initial steps in religious knowledge.

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

The doctrine of baptism was the teaching which enabled Christians who are receiving instructions in preparation for a baptism to discriminate between Jewish washings and Christian baptism. The laying on of hands is for ordination, (Numbers) confirmation, (Acts) healings (Mark) and in this order correspond with the system of teaching respecting them in the Acts of the Apostles - Repentance, Faith, Baptism, Confirmation, Resurrection, Judgment. Even the doctrine of the resurrection belonged to Judaism. The last eternal judgment, is that all who do not live the life, lose their inheritance in the kingdom of God along with the hypocrites and incur the same judgment as the unbelievers.

With this the rest of scripture agrees.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:55 am

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.


This is just someone claiming to be psychic.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:18 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:To me the issue of the parables is moot in the context of was Jesus or is the Bible or is Christianity really Gnostic.

The reason: If we follow GIA then the supernatural does not exist. Fine. But using parables to support this is extremely problematic. The parables are in the NT and the NT has reporting of miracles performed by or undergone by Jesus. They are not presented as parables. They are not parts of someone's speeches, but reported as events meant to be taken literally. If we listen to intepretations of the parables or sayings that seem to support GIA's position - iow treating the NT as an authority on Jesus - then it's authority goes against the dismissal of the supernatural also.


On the literal reading of myths, I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D

Regards
DL


As I have pointed out before

Origen had supernatural beliefs himself.

Rabbi Hillel - "Whoever has acquired the words of the Law has acquired the life of the world to come." not the world now, note.

And you just backed up your position by quoting some people who, at least in the quotes, seem to agree with you.

You don't respond to my points, but as usual repeat yourself.

Yes, I absolutely acknowledge that some Gnostics and quite a few people from other systems of belief take the Bible as mythical. Great, but the Bible does not present itself this way.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Gloominary » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:08 am

I'll say it again, for Christians, Jews and Muslims, God is a supernatural being, and he created the cosmos.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Gloominary » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:47 am

And there were plenty of Christian writers in antiquity who took a literal approach to the bible, such as Saint Augustine.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Venture » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:00 am

Gloominary wrote:And there were plenty of Christian writers in antiquity who took a literal approach to the bible, such as Saint Augustine.


Take another look.

You reach conclusions based on your judgment of past personal experience. What kind of approach do you have to the Bible? You pose your personal approach as understanding and succeeding those in the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim tradition. Don't insult Augustine with your assumptions. I know this is difficult for you, but the creation of the cosmos limits the power of God. You think that the belief in a being that created the cosmos entails a belief in the supernatural. Tell me what you see in Sagittarius and Virgo this March and get back to me.

As for the others contributing, Baptism and ceremonial supper replaced all old rituals to show respect and faith in Christ. Salvation in faith and not works, although works will show the strength of your faith over time.

There are claims of being psychic in physical healing and then there are psychic claims of spiritual rebirth from those who have not experienced it and so cannot comment on it but will attempt to.

I could quote scripture all day but in this contemporary atheism, there are people who say my quoting of scripture weakens my argument.

I will avoid scripture for the sake of those absent of salvation. Read into it brethren, have fun with the depth.

Greatest thinks that supernatural thinking is impossible. I find this hysterical and he has conflicting premises throughout this thread. Look for it and you will find it, along with repetition and aggression. You can look for the truth yourself or rely on other people.

I have not learned what Jesus and the Bible have taught me, but I will.
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That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:02 pm

Gloominary wrote:I'll say it again, for Christians, Jews and Muslims, God is a supernatural being, and he created the cosmos.
Yes. There may be some who have different metaphysics, but the vast majority, including the vast majority of the experts within the Abrahamic religions believe this.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:02 pm

Gloominary wrote:
And there were plenty of Christian writers in antiquity who took a literal approach to the bible, such as Saint Augustine.


The Catechism of the Catholic Church, sanctioned by Pope John Paul II, has this to say on the issue of the changing of the Ten Commandments:

The Church, the "pillar and bulwark of the truth," "has received this solemn command of Christ from the apostles to announce the saving truth." "To the Church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, including those pertaining to the social order."

According to Roman Catholicism, moral issues are dictated by the Ten Commandments—but not the Ten Commandments as found in the Bible.
Rome’s Ten Commandments are defined by Augustine, the Catholic Church father:

The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by St. Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church.

What an amazing confession!

The Ten Commandments defined by Augustine, rather than defined by Scripture, form the basis for Catholic morality.
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Re: Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:09 pm

Venture wrote:
Gloominary wrote:And there were plenty of Christian writers in antiquity who took a literal approach to the bible, such as Saint Augustine.


Take another look.

You reach conclusions based on your judgment of past personal experience. What kind of approach do you have to the Bible? You pose your personal approach as understanding and succeeding those in the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim tradition. Don't insult Augustine with your assumptions. I know this is difficult for you, but the creation of the cosmos limits the power of God.
Are you saying that in the act of creating the cosmos God got weaker? Or are you saying that to say that God created the cosmos is to posit a weaker God than the real God?

Do you believe God did not create the universe?

You think that the belief in a being that created the cosmos entails a belief in the supernatural. Tell me what you see in Sagittarius and Virgo this March and get back to me.
It doesn't entail any particular belief in the supernatural - beyond that of believing in a transcendent being (at least in Christianity) who can do pretty much anything and is not bound by material laws. Bringing up astrology is to bring in something that is not relevant.

Supernatural is a term plagued with all sorts of metaphysical problems, but in terms of the Greatests position, and his use of supernatural, of course God, as posited in the Bible is supernatural.

But then you say this....

Greatest thinks that supernatural thinking is impossible. I find this hysterical and he has conflicting premises throughout this thread. Look for it and you will find it, along with repetition and aggression. You can look for the truth yourself or rely on other people.
And I wonder if I am misunderstanding you.
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