Animal protection is the most noble cause

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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby iambiguous » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:32 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:Never heard of her.



Well, he's heard of you: https://youtu.be/exL51n3py6g :wink:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Serendipper » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:43 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:Again, no way of ever knowing. But probably. I mean, over a long enough period of time, anything that's possible becomes increasingly probable.

What makes the importance of crusading probable? If it's not important today, then what would make it important in the future?
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:30 am

There's no way of ever knowing.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Serendipper » Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:21 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:There's no way of ever knowing.

Has crusading ever been important?
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:00 am

No way of ever knowing.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Serendipper » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:26 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:No way of ever knowing.

How do you know there is no way of knowing?
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Mr Reasonable » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:29 am

It's just a foundational assumption that I have to make in order to categorize things so that they make sense at all. I'm open to any theory on how I could or could not actually know that.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:29 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:It's just a foundational assumption that I have to make in order to categorize things so that they make sense at all. I'm open to any theory on how I could or could not actually know that.

Finally someone says this kind of thing. Great.
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Serendipper » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:14 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:It's just a foundational assumption that I have to make in order to categorize things so that they make sense at all. I'm open to any theory on how I could or could not actually know that.

Yes but you're going out of your way "crusading" on the premise that there is no way to know if such action could be, or ever has been, justified. Why go out of your way to hone skills that you can't tell have ever been required? And if you can't tell if such tools were required when looking back, how could you possibly recognize their use in the future? Or even discern the probability of such usage in order to justify staying in practice.

And "there's no way to know" doesn't mean "Hell if I know man coz I'm too stoned to think about it", but it's the assertion that there is no possible way to know. How do you know that there is no possible way to know?
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Mr Reasonable » Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:46 am

There's also no way to not know it. So I mean, you gotta do something besides just sit there all the time and stare at the wall. Any a lot of things that anyone might do could be construed in one context or another as crusading of one kind or another. I guess you're asking essentially, "why bother?", and my response would be, "why not?"
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Serendipper » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:18 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:There's also no way to not know it. So I mean, you gotta do something besides just sit there all the time and stare at the wall. Any a lot of things that anyone might do could be construed in one context or another as crusading of one kind or another. I guess you're asking essentially, "why bother?", and my response would be, "why not?"

Because, as I said, you are going out of your way. Staying in your way is much easier.

The Taoists would say you're in disharmony with the Tao: you're not following your nature (ie doing what is fun), but your ego (ie doing what improves you. ie work.).

The only reason to crusade is for a righteous cause and so the only reason to practice fighting for righteousness would also be for the sake of a righteous cause. What can be more righteous than being prepared to fight for righteousness?

You're working and my question is why are you working instead of playing?

If you claim you're playing, then where is the evidence for that? If crusading itself were fun, what else are you crusading for? If the act itself were fun, you'd be arguing both sides of an issue just to have crusading to do lol

You can claim you're playing all you want but it looked to me that you were on the clock ;)
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Mr Reasonable » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:25 am

Serendipper wrote:
Mr Reasonable wrote:There's also no way to not know it. So I mean, you gotta do something besides just sit there all the time and stare at the wall. Any a lot of things that anyone might do could be construed in one context or another as crusading of one kind or another. I guess you're asking essentially, "why bother?", and my response would be, "why not?"

Because, as I said, you are going out of your way. Staying in your way is much easier.

The Taoists would say you're in disharmony with the Tao: you're not following your nature (ie doing what is fun), but your ego (ie doing what improves you. ie work.).

The only reason to crusade is for a righteous cause and so the only reason to practice fighting for righteousness would also be for the sake of a righteous cause. What can be more righteous than being prepared to fight for righteousness?

You're working and my question is why are you working instead of playing?

If you claim you're playing, then where is the evidence for that? If crusading itself were fun, what else are you crusading for? If the act itself were fun, you'd be arguing both sides of an issue just to have crusading to do lol

You can claim you're playing all you want but it looked to me that you were on the clock ;)


How do you know what my way is? How is it that work and fun are mutually exclusive? Lots of people have fun at work. Even if they are, fun can improve you. Almost everything has more than one possible reason, so it's probably not true that the only reason to practice fighting for a righteous cause it to crusade. Righteousness is a highly subjective notion and incredibly difficult to define in a meaningful and universal way. I don't claim I'm playing so I don't think I need to provide evidence for that claim. Crusading isn't fun in and of itself necessarily, but it's a good way to pass the time in some cases. In cases where it isn't fun, it at least can serve the purpose of helping one to distinguish when they're having fun and when they're not which is a useful distinction to understand. Sometimes I do argue both sides of an issue. I am the resident contrarian. I am never on the clock.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Serendipper » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:47 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:
You can claim you're playing all you want but it looked to me that you were on the clock
How do you know what my way is?

I don't know, but it "looked" as if you were on the clock. All the evidence points to you working and not playing.

How is it that work and fun are mutually exclusive?

One is purposeful and the other is not.

Lots of people have fun at work.

Then they're not working and the earned income is coincidental.

Even if they are, fun can improve you.

If it does, it would be coincidental and not purposeful. Purposelessness performed for the purpose of improvement is not purposeless.

Almost everything has more than one possible reason, so it's probably not true that the only reason to practice fighting for a righteous cause it to crusade. Righteousness is a highly subjective notion and incredibly difficult to define in a meaningful and universal way.

I can define it. Righteousness is doing what you believe is right. It's purposeful and the purpose is to be right. On the other hand, fun isn't concerned with right and wrong. I don't go racing through the woods on a bike because I'm trying to do the right thing.

I don't claim I'm playing so I don't think I need to provide evidence for that claim. Crusading isn't fun in and of itself necessarily, but it's a good way to pass the time in some cases.

Yeah but that thread had you talking more than I have seen you talk in any other. Just one post alone you dispensed 759 words. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=192293&start=25#p2652998

It's obvious that you feel strongly about the mistreatment of people accused of crimes and if you didn't mean to make it seem that way, then you've just been wrongly convicted of a crime, which constitutes a mistreatment that you would now be crusading against: "Oh no I wasn't crusading, you've got me all wrong and it isn't right(eous) to make assumptions."

Anyway, before we embarked on this philosophical beating around the bush, I just wanted to know why you think one animal deserves protection and not another.

In cases where it isn't fun, it at least can serve the purpose of helping one to distinguish when they're having fun and when they're not which is a useful distinction to understand. Sometimes I do argue both sides of an issue. I am the resident contrarian. I am never on the clock.

I'll give ya "rarely on the clock" ;)
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:54 am

I don't know how to do all that quoting. So I'll just type this out in a wall of text...

Looks can be deceiving. You can have fun with a purpose. Some people might love digging trenches. If they're digging trenches then surely they're working, and if they think it's fun then the income might not be coincidental. Your definition of righteousness rests on the idea that there's a difference between right and wrong. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. But it's a pretty bold statement given that people have debated that either in words or through their actions for like ever. I can relate to people who have been harassed by the police. And I may not type long posts a lot, but in real life I talk very fast and could burn through 800 words in no time so it's not really that odd. Relating to something and crusading for it may be related to one another, but on some kind of spectrum they could be seen as distinct from one another as well. Where did I say one animal deserves protection over another? Not saying I didn't say it. Just can't remember when or where I said it. Was it in this thread? Either way...if I had to justify saying that I'd say that it's not probably so much a matter of one deserving it per se, so much as it would be a matter of which one tastes more delicious. Like if cows tasted bad, and cute little puppies were delicious...I would eat the puppies instead of the cows.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Serendipper » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:48 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:I don't know how to do all that quoting. So I'll just type this out in a wall of text...

That's cool, it's probably better that way. You type a block and I'll split it up.

Looks can be deceiving. You can have fun with a purpose.

I define "fun" as purposeless. How do you define it?

I don't know how else to define it because I can either study philosophy because it's fun, which means I don't really know why, or I can study because I think I'm going to get something out of it.... maybe respect from people or higher pay or something that's considered a benefit. So essentially I'm either doing something for a reason or I am not, and the things I do for unknown reasons is what I call fun. To me, this is fun. If I get anything out of it, then it wouldn't be anything I would have predicted and thought "I'm going to talk to Mr R to get to this goal". It's like dancing doesn't aim for a spot on the floor, but people dance just to dance. It's not the destination, but the journey.

You could say "What if it's fun and I get something out of it?" Then it depends on your motivation: are you doing it for the gain or the fun? If there were no gain, would you still do it? If so, then it's fun.

Some people might love digging trenches. If they're digging trenches then surely they're working, and if they think it's fun then the income might not be coincidental.

Expenditures of calories doesn't make it work or else dancing would be work. The guy digging trenches is digging trenches for the sake of digging trenches just like dancers dance for the sake of dancing. But if they're dancing for the money, or to show off, or to teach, then they're working.

Your definition of righteousness rests on the idea that there's a difference between right and wrong. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. But it's a pretty bold statement given that people have debated that either in words or through their actions for like ever.

I'm not suggesting that there is a right and wrong, but I'm saying that the one on the crusade believes there is a right and wrong or else he wouldn't be crusading for what he thought was right. Whether the cause is "actually" right is beside the fact. All that's important is the crusader "believes" there is a right and he's fighting for it.

I can relate to people who have been harassed by the police.

Me too. I don't like cops either.

And I may not type long posts a lot, but in real life I talk very fast and could burn through 800 words in no time so it's not really that odd.

It's odd in terms of your usual behavior on ilp. You deviated from your usual routine for some reason.

Relating to something and crusading for it may be related to one another, but on some kind of spectrum they could be seen as distinct from one another as well. Where did I say one animal deserves protection over another? Not saying I didn't say it. Just can't remember when or where I said it. Was it in this thread?

You didn't explicitly say it that I know of, but you're advocating special considerations for human prisoners, and humans are animals, so why not special considerations for other animals?

Either way...if I had to justify saying that I'd say that it's not probably so much a matter of one deserving it per se, so much as it would be a matter of which one tastes more delicious. Like if cows tasted bad, and cute little puppies were delicious...I would eat the puppies instead of the cows.

What if humans tasted best of all?
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby barbarianhorde » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:56 am

Im sure there are people who enjoy doing useful things. Granted, they would not be here with us on this site.
It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed.
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Serendipper » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:40 am

Yes but the distinction is that the usefulness is not the motivation for doing the thing and is completely inconsequential. All of the Eastern religions are built upon the distinction between the purposeful and purposeless because one is egoic and the other is not.
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