The purpose of all life

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Re: The purpose of all life

Postby Meno_ » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:44 pm

Artimas wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:
Mr Reasonable wrote:Ecmandu, you can't say that everyone wants their consent violated, and that no one wants their consent violated and both of those things be true.


That's not what I said, and again, you know it.

What I said is that almost everyone wants their consent violated, but that nobody wants their consent violated against their consent, everybody wants consent violations on their own terms, there is no exception to that.

Think in terms of surprise birthday parties to understand how I'm categorizing this. Lots really love them, lots really hate them. If you put someone in a reality where surprise birthday parties are impossible, you'll be violating their consent by not having a consent violation like this in their reality.

It's not as simple as stating nobody wants their consent violated -- an additional step needs to be clarified there, to avoid what every being individually and collectively seeks to avoid, having their consent violated without ever being ultimately on their own terms.


Sounds like your talking about love and being self aware ultimately. To see the bigger picture. Violating consent or another's 'will' is to be tyrannical, by asserting yours over theirs. If this is what you are meaning then I can't say I disagree. Live happy but in the least harmful way possible.

Existence is agony, so the purpose of existence is to lessen the agony of which you and others endure, by choosing love. There are only two paths after existence, love or fear.



A third one , faith. Beyond love and fear. That is if there is no love or fear.

There are some who can't love because they fear its loss.
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Re: The purpose of all life

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:57 pm

Love isn't always pleasant in motion, to add to what meno said.

Love is also a subset of consent violation:

Your consent may be violated if you aren't loved or aren't loving. Being loving certainly doesn't always imply consent.

There's one level above consent violation.

Surprise. Not all surprises are consent violations, but all consent violations are surprises.

That's why I worked hard to word these concepts so carefully. I didn't and don't want to be sloppy in teaching this.
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Re: The purpose of all life

Postby Artimas » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:29 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Love isn't always pleasant in motion, to add to what meno said.

Love is also a subset of consent violation:

Your consent may be violated if you aren't loved or aren't loving. Being loving certainly doesn't always imply consent.

There's one level above consent violation.

Surprise. Not all surprises are consent violations, but all consent violations are surprises.

That's why I worked hard to word these concepts so carefully. I didn't and don't want to be sloppy in teaching this.


I feel like it isn't real love though. Real love is when you understand that you are a byproduct of environment ultimately and you consciously choose to love and be a person that tries to do as least amounts of harm possible.

I agree faith is another path, but in the end most people are let down with it because it's illusory depending on what you have faith in. If it's external and not the self or something that has real effects on yourself or on the world then I wouldn't waste time. Love and fear are very real and people go through them everyday. It's best to choose love because when you see the bigger image, when you hurt someone you hurt yourself in multiple ways, some of them being mere possibility but still, is it worth the risk? Reality is like a glass puzzle. We each are a piece, we get to choose which piece we want to be based on the extent of who we are or our abilities. If you hurt another, the entire image can Crack to harm you, this is called karma, the ripple effect. Not only that but you also have to carry the weight of regret or hurting someone else, when it catches up to you.. And it will. Faith and expectation is where disappoint and insecurity is created as a possibility and a very high chance of it.

Why have faith when you can know or not know, it's fun pondering but I'd suggest not getting sucked in too deep like a lot of people are, where they make claims based purely from it. It's that simple.

I live my life by this quote and think it's a pretty solid one.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle

It is never good to violate consent but it is also necessary to survive. Like I said we should do the least amount of harm to the extent of what we can while not subtracting from what you need to be happy. This is where perception being different comes into effect and all the discussions regarding it, "well which perception is right or good" "should we allow cannabalism if it makes them happy" I feel we have answers to these questions that are both humane and possible for us all. Yes it is gross and no I wouldn't advocate it but who am I to exert my will upon another individual and what brings them peace? Do it in seclusion if it's not accepted in mass society. Take people who donate themselves after death only.
We have answers for all of these issues but it's just a matter of people not understanding existence and the bigger picture.

Ps. It's nice to be back talking intellect with you gents and ladies. I have been starved of intellectual stimuli.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: The purpose of all life

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:26 am

Ecmandu wrote:
Mr Reasonable wrote:Ecmandu, you can't say that everyone wants their consent violated, and that no one wants their consent violated and both of those things be true.


That's not what I said, and again, you know it.

What I said is that almost everyone wants their consent violated, but that nobody wants their consent violated against their consent, everybody wants consent violations on their own terms, there is no exception to that.

Think in terms of surprise birthday parties to understand how I'm categorizing this. Lots really love them, lots really hate them. If you put someone in a reality where surprise birthday parties are impossible, you'll be violating their consent by not having a consent violation like this in their reality.

It's not as simple as stating nobody wants their consent violated -- an additional step needs to be clarified there, to avoid what every being individually and collectively seeks to avoid, having their consent violated without ever being ultimately on their own terms.



Sounds like you're saying not all instances of sex are rape.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

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Re: The purpose of all life

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:40 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:
Mr Reasonable wrote:Ecmandu, you can't say that everyone wants their consent violated, and that no one wants their consent violated and both of those things be true.


That's not what I said, and again, you know it.

What I said is that almost everyone wants their consent violated, but that nobody wants their consent violated against their consent, everybody wants consent violations on their own terms, there is no exception to that.

Think in terms of surprise birthday parties to understand how I'm categorizing this. Lots really love them, lots really hate them. If you put someone in a reality where surprise birthday parties are impossible, you'll be violating their consent by not having a consent violation like this in their reality.

It's not as simple as stating nobody wants their consent violated -- an additional step needs to be clarified there, to avoid what every being individually and collectively seeks to avoid, having their consent violated without ever being ultimately on their own terms.



Sounds like you're saying not all instances of sex are rape.


I figured you'd go there.

It's a different story when the no means yes scenario is 100%, and not some fraction of, or even the ideal 50/50.

The conscious mind of humans, amongst other wars with the subconscious is about denying the no means yes relationship we have with existence in the most egregious ways.

It took 42 years of shock and horror to face it, to submit to the subconscious, which doesn't lie, from my ego defenses in the conscious which lie constantly.
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Re: The purpose of all life

Postby Artimas » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:39 pm

I figured you'd go there.

It's a different story when the no means yes scenario is 100%, and not some fraction of, or even the ideal 50/50.

The conscious mind of humans, amongst other wars with the subconscious is about denying the no means yes relationship we have with existence in the most egregious ways.

It took 42 years of shock and horror to face it, to submit to the subconscious, which doesn't lie, from my ego defenses in the conscious which lie constantly.


It takes a long time to realize and once you realize it's hard to teach. I get what you are saying though and it does happen too much and no one pays attention to it.. I agree females should be the ones to seek due to the fact of the whole "no means yes" scenario. If they pick the mate instead of a male picking there is less or no confusion, at least with that aspect of relationship. We create rape due to our lack of understanding of how we create it. We live in vicious psychological circles in this society, traps and it can take a long time to mentally get out of the indoctrination or lie of a life one has lived. Struggle over comfort. The subconscious definitely does not lie.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: The purpose of all life

Postby Meno_ » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:47 pm

Artimas, I believe for the most part, that is true. But there is no guerenteed as to the fidelity and the truth content of subconscious material.
Some suppressed material, by the time its recognized for what it signifies , becomes so consulates by conscious -subconscious content, that the created symbolism becomes almost unrecognizable.
At rare times, it closes the content's recognition totally.
I personally in the psychology forums few who attempted my request on a dream I had.


Could You interpret my dream?


My wife and I were in France. I took a bus from where our hotel was to a nearby town . on board I realized I forgot my cell phone.

At that time, later, I assumed the name of the town I was going to because I got off an appropriate stop.

On getting off I tried to remember the name of the town where our hotel was, and it was San Fernando, a town near where we live in California.

Then the rest of the dream consists in trying to get back.

Walked miles and miles to a bus stop asking a French man who looked like an official about getting back to San Fernando, and he said he didn't know the neighberhodd well enough.

While we were talking, a bus passed, and he said I should have taken the bus and upon asking about the bus schedule, he said he didn't know about it either.

Then I thought of how worried my wife could be and trying to call me while it rang nearby in our hotel room.

Panicking I also thought of having left my wallet behind.

Woke up with great relief, found my wife in respiratory distress and I awoke her, telling her next time to sleep with her apnea machine.
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Re: The purpose of all life

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:34 pm

To begin interpreting complex dreams, you need to find out what France means to you, and you alone.

France is generally considered romantic, so perhaps when you try to do something romantic it distances you and her.

I actually don't want to put ideas in your head though, it's really about what France means to you.

What San Fernando means to you.

This could take a few posts to interpret.

I can say for certain, that you were trying to get to your wife in the waking state, which the subconscious detected the repratory distress.

Maybe you just feel powerless about the apnea, and feel like you're not strong enough for her because you can't stop the apnea, this lack of power, could well make you feel like you're not the knight in shining armor you feel like you should be (the romance that leaves you wandering without her, the failure.)
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Re: The purpose of all life

Postby Meno_ » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:46 pm

Ecmandu wrote:To begin interpreting complex dreams, you need to find out what France means to you, and you alone.

France is generally considered romantic, so perhaps when you try to do something romantic it distances you and her.

I actually don't want to put ideas in your head though, it's really about what France means to you.

What San Fernando means to you.

This could take a few posts to interpret.

I can say for certain, that you were trying to get to your wife in the waking state, which the subconscious detected the repratory distress.

Maybe you just feel powerless about the apnea, and feel like you're not strong enough for her because you can't stop the apnea, this lack of power, could well make you feel like you're not the knight in shining armor you feel like you should be (the romance that leaves you wandering without her, the failure.)





Oh You're sooo close yet sooooooooo far, thanks for the effort,..... the convoluted conscious/subconscious is slightly less difficult to become aware of than subject object relations, all of which depend on the former.

Incursion into that would involve extremely censured levels.


can say for certain, that you were trying to get to your wife in the waking state, which the subconscious detected the repratory distress.
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Re: The purpose of all life

Postby Meno_ » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:41 pm

can say for certain, that you were trying to get to your wife in the waking state, which the subconscious detected the repratory distress.
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Re: The purpose of all lifel

Postby Meno_ » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:42 pm

Meno_ wrote:can say for certain, that you were trying to get to your wife in the waking state, which the subconscious detected the repratory distress.



Ec, this is the thing, here is the point of conflation between conscious and subconscious, the places that are difficult to untangle, even if not censured.
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Re: The purpose of all life

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:10 am

Artimas wrote:
I figured you'd go there.

It's a different story when the no means yes scenario is 100%, and not some fraction of, or even the ideal 50/50.

The conscious mind of humans, amongst other wars with the subconscious is about denying the no means yes relationship we have with existence in the most egregious ways.

It took 42 years of shock and horror to face it, to submit to the subconscious, which doesn't lie, from my ego defenses in the conscious which lie constantly.


It takes a long time to realize and once you realize it's hard to teach. I get what you are saying though and it does happen too much and no one pays attention to it.. I agree females should be the ones to seek due to the fact of the whole "no means yes" scenario. If they pick the mate instead of a male picking there is less or no confusion, at least with that aspect of relationship. We create rape due to our lack of understanding of how we create it. We live in vicious psychological circles in this society, traps and it can take a long time to mentally get out of the indoctrination or lie of a life one has lived. Struggle over comfort. The subconscious definitely does not lie.


You also have to understand, in historical context, consent is a very modern concept. VERY modern!!!

Historically speaking.

I'm a freak of nature. I know that.

The others are so far behind.

I found it interesting for example that meno said "my wife"... instead of "the woman I am with domestically."

So meno is using ownership language, such as "my mother" instead of, "the mother I am of".

So from this, I gather meno adores human slavery.

I actually didn't really give the kind of interpretation to the dream meno wanted, I was being kind, and also understanding that moderators are breathing over my shoulders. So I'm using my intelligence to tip-toe through this thread now.

Which, is most certainly censorship, but a kind I'm willing to work with.
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Re: The purpose of all life

Postby Artimas » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:16 am

Ecmandu wrote:
Artimas wrote:
I figured you'd go there.

It's a different story when the no means yes scenario is 100%, and not some fraction of, or even the ideal 50/50.

The conscious mind of humans, amongst other wars with the subconscious is about denying the no means yes relationship we have with existence in the most egregious ways.

It took 42 years of shock and horror to face it, to submit to the subconscious, which doesn't lie, from my ego defenses in the conscious which lie constantly.


It takes a long time to realize and once you realize it's hard to teach. I get what you are saying though and it does happen too much and no one pays attention to it.. I agree females should be the ones to seek due to the fact of the whole "no means yes" scenario. If they pick the mate instead of a male picking there is less or no confusion, at least with that aspect of relationship. We create rape due to our lack of understanding of how we create it. We live in vicious psychological circles in this society, traps and it can take a long time to mentally get out of the indoctrination or lie of a life one has lived. Struggle over comfort. The subconscious definitely does not lie.


You also have to understand, in historical context, consent is a very modern concept. VERY modern!!!

Historically speaking.

I'm a freak of nature. I know that.

The others are so far behind.

I found it interesting for example that meno said "my wife"... instead of "the woman I am with domestically."

So meno is using ownership language, such as "my mother" instead of, "the mother I am of".

So from this, I gather meno adores human slavery.

I actually didn't really give the kind of interpretation to the dream meno wanted, I was being kind, and also understanding that moderators are breathing over my shoulders. So I'm using my intelligence to tip-toe through this thread now.

Which, is most certainly censorship, but a kind I'm willing to work with.

But you see. It is merely the language and not his intent, I am sure meno does not think of his wife in that manner, I would hope not at least.. That is a good example of how our modern language system is too complex and confusing, it does more bad than good by painting the wrong ideas in others heads, it isn't clear. We need a language that is easily understood with no confusion. Where we hear it or read it and can get it. I do agree it is modern or at the very least long forgotten, a few 100 years ago and man was doing what he wanted with hardly any repercussions unless severe.. But regarding women id say they took what they wanted when they wanted with little trouble.

I'll attempt to diagnose the dream in a little bit using my own perspective if I can.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: The purpose of all life

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:30 pm

If meno was inherently passionate like myself, he would have naturally changed like I did.

This is the whole point about the subconscious, it doesn't lie, just like no means yes, all that the subconscious mind sees is that meno is down with human slavery, that is the intent that the subconscious sees.

Memos been really nice to me, I snapped at him a bit because he didn't state before that he had solved it and was testing us.

Like when someone says "it's a nice day", the subconscious as intent hears that this person for this day, approves of everything that's happening. They're also using psycho neuro linguistic programming and operant conditioning to get you to contradict yourself and tell them (as a subset of the day) that they too are nice, they're trying to dominate. Since I have much less of a subconscious than most people, all of this is in my conscious mind.

I call these people "snipers", sniping at someone in cowardice to dominate them, and just walk on by or run away. There are hundreds of ways people do this on a regular basis.

People need to move their subconscious more to their conscious, then we will certainly have a more peaceful world. The language will change with peer pressure, because ultimately, I'm sure people want less jarring worlds than this one, a less jarring species.
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Re: The purpose of all life

Postby Meno_ » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:09 pm

The entanglement is so profound , Ec, that it becomes the most suppressed of all clear intentional clarity. Let me clarify, nut return to one key concept that You used. , : that is 'human slavery'.

I am going this time in, from the outside, an eco-genesis through the shell which we ourselves created, to sort of alienate the inside so that we can recreate this Grand Illusion called the self or the ego.

Marx was completely anti shamanic, he painted a picture of a dissolved Heglelianism. So as to unite the forces of the ideal and the pragmatic.

He failed miserably. Why? Not only because the ends dis not justify the means, bit because the whole logic was using the forces at the shamam's disposal to create the semblance of sentiment.

Socialism has utopian and humanistic elements, and appears to eradicate the ego, into uniform and malleable feasibility. It appears to profess humanistic and even Christian ideals , in the very basic Hermainic Heglelian sense, while masking the basic constrained of the recognition within the abrupt new form development of its anti them within. the existential despair inherent in Dostoevsky through Nietzsche.

While this topicalitu goes by most intellectuals of the past, since their primary concern is still within the philosophy of mind, which will reduce everything to positivism and all that entails, Marx takes a turn , and dreams up a world where Kant''s imperatives categorically defy Hegel's spirituality.

Camt be done say the voice, the subconscious fro. The inside, England, the cradle of Capitalistic production, if not by de facto exhibition like the demonstrative implications that the 1900 world faire pronounced, but by the utilization. of the principles which set it in motion.
Once the utility of claims to pragmatic concerns were set, there was not a bit
anything anyone could do, if there was anybody around like that in those times able to figure it out, its future implocations.

I think Marx did and the results crossed the thresholds of fasticity, crossed the boundaries of reason, that has become an ex post facto.

In fact, pragmatism utilized for its own sake and not for the essence that is contained within it, is totally outsourced from its primacy, and never ever thought in terms of its universal effects.

The mistake became obvious when theorists analyzed why communism was not bred in England , but in Russia.

We come.back to Dostoevsky and Nietzsche again in a full circle

All the other notions will fall in place, about the internal world, and its relation to the other, in this very , and I wish I could use Iambigious' terms, but it escaped me relating to anti intellectualism, but shall return, after drawing this set principled drawn progressove situations ad hoc.

There is a lot more development needed to disqualify Marx as an insubstantial shaman, but in fact what he was.doing was.creating a.shadow world against the unstoppable development of functional theory corresponding with pragmatism, that it SHOULD be perceived that the ego within the realm of the Ancien Regime needs.more.chastisememt then a mere.few decapitated vested personages.

The punishment will consists of total anonymity into a classless society.

Without ego, and reverting Hobb's paranoid elitist controllers, the emergence.of the egoless comrades.will replace them, by a return to Rousseau's noble savage.

Now what on earth does all that mean in terms of the subconscious Freudian man, who's can remain aware only until then dawn of civilization , circumscribing the birth of.tragedy?

Will follow with corrections and connections to what really is going on and why Ann Raynd is not such am absolute evil which after all, in her efforts.to point or the folly following the yellow brick road.

Or, if You follow this train , the red.one, instead.of the yellow, and symphatize with it, thenaybe come.to the similar conclusion that Trump is reallynsimilarly, merely following a post.scribes script.of the inevitable, that practice , praxis need.to be recognized as hopelessly convoluted.

We.can never figure out our own dreams and the messages comtimed in it, even of we.perfectly remember it in every detail, not.less.the.dreams and individual goals that may serve as a.guide.


The contradiction and the following. Rhetorical State, is implicit in any legal-political argument staged in the modern world, as a result

Must follow up, really, if not merely for my own edification .


And You must not worry overtly, about the mods, they utilize intent more then exploitive in their judgement, however I'm not 100 percent on this one, however I thank You for the reserved manner of describing it.



ALAN Cohen, ' The decadence of the Shamans' 1991


https://shamanview.blogspot.com/2012/10 ... d.html?m=1



I do agree with the assessment that people should move more of their subconscious motivation into their awareness, but there is no clear distinction in the first place, so which part to move to which part? (Since most remembered dreams are fragmented ). But lets say philosophers are more adept at it, how does this make it generally. more relevant?

Solve underlying problem leaving charges not unlike Iambig's.
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Re: The purpose of all life

Postby Meno_ » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:45 pm

Meno_ wrote:The entanglement is so profound , Ec, that it becomes the most suppressed of all clear intentional clarity. Let me clarify, but return to one key concept that You used. , : that is 'human slavery'.

I am going this time in, from the outside, an eco-genesis through the shell which we ourselves created, to sort of alienate the inside so that we can recreate this Grand Illusion called the self or the ego.

Marx was completely anti shamanic, he painted a picture of a dissolved Heglelianism. So as to unite the forces of the ideal and the pragmatic.

He failed miserably. Why? Not only because the ends did not justify the means, but because the whole logic was using the forces at the shaman's disposal to create the semblance of sentiment.

Socialism has utopian and humanistic elements, and appears to eradicate the ego, into uniform and malleable feasibility. It appears to profess humanistic and even Christian ideals , in the very basic Germainic Heglelian sense, while masking the basis of constrained recognition within the abrupt new formal development of its anti themes within. (the existential despair inherent in Dostoevsky through Nietzsche.)

While this topically flies by most intellectuals of the past, their primary concern being within the philosophy of mind, reducing everything toward positivism and all that entails, Marx takes a turn , and dreams up a world where Kant''s imperatives categorically defy Hegel's spirituality.

Can't be done say's the voice, the subconscious hallucination. The inside, England, the cradle of Capitalistic production, if not by de facto exhibition like the demonstrative implications that the 1900 World Fair pronounced, but by the utilization. of the principles which set it in motion.
Once the utility of claims to pragmatic concerns were set, there was not a bit
anything anyone could do, if there was anybody around like that in those times able to figure it out, its future implications.

I think Marx did and the results crossed the thresholds of fasticity, crossed the boundaries of reason, that have become an ex post facto deliberation.

In fact, pragmatism utilized for its own sake and not for the essence that is contained within it, totally outsourced from its primacy, and never ever thought in terms of its universal effects.created the cognitive sandwich we find ourselves in.

The mistake became obvious when theorists analyzed why communism was not bred in England , but in Russia.

We come.back to Dostoevsky and Nietzsche again in a full circle

All the other notions will fall in place, about the internal world, and its relation to the other, in this very , and I wish I could use Iambigious' terms, but it escapes me , relating to anti intellectualism, but shall return, after drawing this set principled progressive situations into ad hoc situations.

There is a lot more development needed to disqualify Marx as an substantial shaman, but in fact what he was.doing was creating a.shadow world against the unstoppable development of functional theory corresponding with pragmatism, that it SHOULD be perceived that the ego within the realm of the Ancien Regime needs more.chastisement then a mere.few decapitated vested interested principals..

The punishment will consists of total anonymity into a classless society.

Without ego, and reverting Hobb's paranoid elitist controllers, the emergence.of the egoless comrades.will replace them, by a return to Rousseau's noble savage.

Now what on earth does all that mean in terms of the subconscious Freudian man, who can remain aware only up until then dawn of civilization , circumscribing the birth of.tragedy?

Will follow with corrections and connections to what really is going on and why Ann Raynd is not such an absolute anathema after all, in her efforts.to point to the folly following the yellow brick road.

Or, if You follow this train , the red.one, instead.of the yellow, ( She was Russian ) and symphatize with it, thereby come.to similar conclusions that Trump is treading, merely , merely by following postwritten scripts of the inevitable, that , praxis need to recognize as hopelessly convoluted.

We.can never figure out our own dreams and the messages contaned in it, even as we.perfectly remember it in every detail, not.less the.dreams and individual goals that may serve as a guide, through signs and markers.


The contradiction and the following. Rhetorical State, is implicit in any legal-political argument staged in the modern world, as a result




And You must not worry overtly, about the mods, they utilize intent more then exploitive in their judgement, however I'm not 100 percent on this one, however I thank You for the reserved manner of describing it.



ALAN Cohen, ' The decadence of the Shamans' 1991


https://shamanview.blogspot.com/2012/10 ... d.html?m=1



agree with the assessment that people should move more of their subconscious motivation into their awareness, but there is no clear distinction in the first place, so which part to move to which part? (Since most remembered dreams are fragmented ). But lets say philosophers are more adept at it, how does this make it generally. more relevant?

Solve underlying problem leaving charges not unlike Iambig's.



Duplicate , sorry.






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Shamanism
"Shaman" and "Shamans" redirect here. For other uses, see Shaman (disambiguation).
Learn moreIt has been suggested that History of Shamanism be merged into this article. (Discuss)
Shamanism is a practice that involves a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to perceive and interact with what they believe to be a spirit world and channel these transcendental energies into this world.[1]

A shaman (/ˈʃɑːmən/ SHAH-men, /ˈʃæmən/ or /ˈʃeɪmən/)[2] is someone who is regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters into a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination and healing.[2] The word "shaman" probably originates from the Tungusic Evenki language of North Asia. According to ethnolinguist Juha Janhunen, "the word is attested in all of the Tungusic idioms" such as Negidal, Lamut, Udehe/Orochi, Nanai, Ilcha, Orok, Manchu and Ulcha, and "nothing seems to contradict the assumption that the meaning 'shaman' also derives from Proto-Tungusic" and may have roots that extend back in time at least two millennia.[3] The term was introduced to the west after Russian forces conquered the shamanistic Khanate of Kazan in 1552.

The term "shamanism" was first applied by Western anthropologists as outside observers of the ancient religion of the Turks and Mongols, as well as those of the neighbouring Tungusic and Samoyedic-speaking peoples. Upon observing more religious traditions across the world, some Western anthropologists began to also use the term in a very broad sense. The term was used to describe unrelated magico-religious practices found within the ethnic religions of other parts of Asia, Africa, Australasia and even completely unrelated parts of the Americas, as they believed these practices to be similar to one another.[4]

Mircea Eliade writes, "A first definition of this complex phenomenon, and perhaps the least hazardous, will be: shamanism = 'technique of religious ecstasy'."[5] Shamanism encompasses the premise that shamans are intermediaries or messengers between the human world and the spirit worlds. Shamans are said to treat ailments/illness by mending the soul. Alleviating traumas affecting the soul/spirit restores the physical body of the individual to balance and wholeness. The shaman also enters supernatural realms or dimensions to obtain solutions to problems afflicting the community. Shamans may visit other worlds/dimensions to bring guidance to misguided souls and to ameliorate illnesses of the human soul caused by foreign elements. The shaman operates primarily within the spiritual world, which in turn affects the human world. The restoration of balance results in the elimination of the ailment.[5]

Beliefs and practices that have been categorised this way as "shamanic" have attracted the interest of scholars from a wide variety of disciplines, including anthropologists, archaeologists, historians, religious studies scholars, philosophers and psychologists. Hundreds of books and academic papers on the subject have been produced, with a peer-reviewed academic journal being devoted to the study of shamanism. In the 20th century, many Westerners involved in the counter-cultural movement have created modern magico-religious practices influenced by their ideas of indigenous religions from across the world, creating what has been termed neoshamanism or the neoshamanic movement.[6] It has affected the development of many neopagan practices, as well as faced a backlash and accusations of cultural appropriation,[7] exploitation and misrepresentation when outside observers have tried to represent cultures they do not belong to.[8][9]

Terminology
Initiation and learning Edit
Shamans may be called through dreams or signs. However, shamanic powers may be inherited. In traditional societies shamanic training varies in length, but generally takes years.

Turner and colleagues[26] mention a phenomenon called shamanistic initiatory crisis, a rite of passage for shamans-to-be, commonly involving physical illness and/or psychological crisis. The significant role of initiatory illnesses in the calling of a shaman can be found in the detailed case history of Chuonnasuan, who was the last master shaman among the Tungus peoples in Northeast China.[27]

The wounded healer is an archetype for a shamanic trial and journey. This process is important to the young shaman. They undergo a type of sickness that pushes them to the brink of death. This happens for two reasons:

The shaman crosses over to the underworld. This happens so the shaman can venture to its depths to bring back vital information for the sick and the tribe.
The shaman must become sick to understand sickness. When the shaman overcomes their own sickness, they will hold the cure to heal all that suffer. This is the uncanny mark of the wounded healer.[28]
Roles

Beliefs
Practice
Academic study
Decline and revitalization / tradition-preserving movements


https://youtu.be/QOnMqqnJLKo

Hungarian Shamanism probably acquired from initial migration from Northern Asia. (Kazan) - Ancient Mongolia
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Re: The purpose of all life

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:49 pm

I have to say that I'm happy this thread just crossed the 200:1 post /viewer ratio ... for a thread that's this long and still on the current page, not having fallen off it yet... that is very rare ...

I'm very glad people participated to make this thread what it is, and that it garnered interest like that.
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Re: The purpose of all life

Postby Meno_ » Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:52 pm

2nd the notion motion, and excuse on answering Peace Girl in the interim, ...
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