The seat

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The seat

Postby lordoflight » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:59 pm

So the ancient texts and ancient gods say Femininity is the seat of creativity. But modern science says testosterone and lust drives creativity.

What is the seat of creativity?
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Re: The seat

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:04 pm

Creative men have lower levels of testosterone. Creative women have higher.
Than normal for their sex, that is.
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Re: The seat

Postby barbarianhorde » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:23 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Creative men have lower levels of testosterone. Creative women have higher.
Than normal for their sex, that is.

How do you figure?
Some one like say, Picasso seems to have had pretty high testosterone. Creativity isn't possible without wildly throwing around libidinal energy.

What I can believe is that creative people are more right brained meaning less murderous and more seeking.
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Re: The seat

Postby barbarianhorde » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:30 pm

Ah I found some kind of source
https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/ ... -0004.html
but the title is downright bullcrap. It just shows that the species changed at one point, not that there is now within the species a correlation between low testosterone comparatively to contemporary specimen averages and creativity.
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Re: The seat

Postby barbarianhorde » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:32 pm

lordoflight wrote:What is the seat of creativity?

Technically the stars.

In any case its not in us, but what we live in. We live in the seat of creativity. We can either be just creation or be part of the process of creation that recreates itself.
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Re: The seat

Postby lordoflight » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:09 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:Creative men have lower levels of testosterone. Creative women have higher.
Than normal for their sex, that is.

How do you figure?
Some one like say, Picasso seems to have had pretty high testosterone. Creativity isn't possible without wildly throwing around libidinal energy.

What I can believe is that creative people are more right brained meaning less murderous and more seeking.


Picasso was pretty much crap, not really the gold standard for scientific comparisons.

I differ to beg about the murder thing, most of the best and artistic games in the industry have had violence in it. Mario is a game about murder, so is Gears of War, both have very artistic atmospheres. I have heard right brained people are more emotional and therefore more homicidal.
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Re: The seat

Postby lordoflight » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:11 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:
lordoflight wrote:What is the seat of creativity?

Technically the stars.

In any case its not in us, but what we live in. We live in the seat of creativity. We can either be just creation or be part of the process of creation that recreates itself.


To be more specific by creativity, I mean original, immersive or captivating art, not merely building or engineering. But building and engineering is an interesting concept too, its generally male dominated but it seems like if someone had high testosterone they would be more suited to blue collar work and an inability to focus on architectural or complex engineering endeavors.
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Re: The seat

Postby Gloominary » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:51 am

Aside from not being able to give birth, I think men are the more creative, and destructive sex for that matter, women are more the preservative/sustentative sex.
Creative people are risk takers.
They dare to be different, stand out, stray from the beaten path.
experiment, observe and interpret, as opposed to relying on second hand info.
Men are risk takers, they prefer to learn things hands on, women are risk averse, they prefer to do things by the book.
That's why more women attend church and school, whereas more men entrepreneur.
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Re: The seat

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:26 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:Creative men have lower levels of testosterone. Creative women have higher.
Than normal for their sex, that is.

How do you figure?

Well, honestly I am waiting for more research. But I thought it was interesting and kind of disturbing. The research below does not all fit perfectly together, but I was not using deduction, but rather working with what they seem to be finding out.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1938141
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1778236
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/nigel-ba ... ccounter=1

High Testosterone Level: A Hurdle to Creating Art
A research in Current Anthropology, a journal dedicated to study and learn more about the human race or humanity, discovered that our antediluvian human ancestry may have been hindered to yield or create art for the reason that their testosterone levels are very high.

According to study and analysis, about 50,000 years in the past, technology, and cultures such as visual arts, music, and literature started to change and progress and was prompted by a rather abrupt decrease of testosterone-related qualities in skeletal remnants of humans. The decline of testosterone affected them to become less hostile or aggressive making them more open and willing to live with others in bigger groups or clusters.

This incident was said to have manifested the beginning of artistic or creative expressions and the advancement of utensils and tools plus a more intricate manner of harvesting food. The research’s timeline and discoveries match to the visual art or cavern paintings and images discovered near Málaga, Spain approximately 42,000 years before.

Lead author, Robert Cieri, stated that “The modern human behaviors of technological innovation, making art and rapid cultural exchange probably came at the same time that we developed a more cooperative temperament,”

The research discussed that when people began treating each other nicer, there was progress in the human civilization and culture because of low testosterone level that decreased their hostility or aggression.


Though it's good to be exposed to testosterone in the womb for creativity...

https://www.psypost.org/2014/07/artists ... inds-26249
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Re: The seat

Postby barbarianhorde » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:31 pm

Gloominary wrote:Aside from not being able to give birth, I think men are the more creative, and destructive sex for that matter, women are more the preservative/sustentative sex.
Creative people are risk takers.
They dare to be different, stand out, stray from the beaten path.
experiment, observe and interpret, as opposed to relying on second hand info.
Men are risk takers, they prefer to learn things hands on, women are risk averse, they prefer to do things by the book.
That's why more women attend church and school, whereas more men entrepreneur.

Totally.

Creativity is risk taking.

And:

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
barbarianhorde wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:Creative men have lower levels of testosterone. Creative women have higher.
Than normal for their sex, that is.

How do you figure?

Well, honestly I am waiting for more research. But I thought it was interesting and kind of disturbing. The research below does not all fit perfectly together, but I was not using deduction, but rather working with what they seem to be finding out.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1938141
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1778236
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/nigel-ba ... ccounter=1

High Testosterone Level: A Hurdle to Creating Art
A research in Current Anthropology, a journal dedicated to study and learn more about the human race or humanity, discovered that our antediluvian human ancestry may have been hindered to yield or create art for the reason that their testosterone levels are very high.

According to study and analysis, about 50,000 years in the past, technology, and cultures such as visual arts, music, and literature started to change and progress and was prompted by a rather abrupt decrease of testosterone-related qualities in skeletal remnants of humans. The decline of testosterone affected them to become less hostile or aggressive making them more open and willing to live with others in bigger groups or clusters.

This incident was said to have manifested the beginning of artistic or creative expressions and the advancement of utensils and tools plus a more intricate manner of harvesting food. The research’s timeline and discoveries match to the visual art or cavern paintings and images discovered near Málaga, Spain approximately 42,000 years before.

Actually what this research says is that when testosterone levels dropped species-wide, there came a greater level of cooperation.

Meaning that creative people had more of an impact, because their ideas where shared. Its not indicated at any level that specimen-specific low testosterone correlates to high creativity.

Fake science!
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Re: The seat

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:38 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Actually what this research says is that when testosterone levels dropped species-wide, there came a greater level of cooperation.

Meaning that creative people had more of an impact, because their ideas where shared. Its not indicated at any level that specimen-specific low testosterone correlates to high creativity.

Fake science!

That was just what that piece was focused on. The others focus on saliva tests of creative vs. non-creative people and findings that people who are more androgenous, testosterone-wise, are more likely to be creative. That is, woman with more than average, men with less.
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Re: The seat

Postby barbarianhorde » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:55 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
barbarianhorde wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Actually what this research says is that when testosterone levels dropped species-wide, there came a greater level of cooperation.

Meaning that creative people had more of an impact, because their ideas where shared. Its not indicated at any level that specimen-specific low testosterone correlates to high creativity.

Fake science!

That was just what that piece was focused on. The others focus on saliva tests of creative vs. non-creative people and findings that people who are more androgenous, testosterone-wise, are more likely to be creative. That is, woman with more than average, men with less.

I don't think this is even possible. Creation is risk taking, thats just a fact.
I have very high testosterone and Im always creating.

I think these scientists are in the dark about what creation is. Probably they mean people who cut out ribbons and tie them to balloons, not philosophers or great artists or great scientists.
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Re: The seat

Postby barbarianhorde » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:59 pm

I definitely agree that a man who is creative like whats talked about here must have ultra low testosterone levels.



But lets not agree that these guys with no testosterone have any ground to know what creativity is.
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Re: The seat

Postby barbarianhorde » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:01 pm

You know, in many classes it is recommended to be creative with mathematics, or arithmetic, find creative ways of seeing if 2 plus 2 is maybe 6, or 473289, because you have a creative reason. Thats real in our education system. And thats low or no testosterone, clearly.

Bu the catch is, it doesn't create anything. It just turns the mind of the children to useless putty.
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Re: The seat

Postby lordoflight » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:55 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:I don't think this is even possible. Creation is risk taking, thats just a fact.
I have very high testosterone and Im always creating.

I think these scientists are in the dark about what creation is. Probably they mean people who cut out ribbons and tie them to balloons, not philosophers or great artists or great scientists.


All I know is that Lauren Faust is one of the best artists, if not the best, of our times.

I stated earlier I was talking mostly about art. When you say "I create a lot" it sounds like building. Testosterone boosts mental energy to a certain extent. I would say testosterone causes boredom and the inability to settle.

As for your artistic merits, if your avatar was drawn by you then you are a good artist, if not, then its just your word then, until you show us something you've made.
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Re: The seat

Postby barbarianhorde » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:56 pm

I had to look up Lauren Faust, okay but thats a girl. I do think girls with more testosterone could be more creative than those with less. That half of the theory is still possibly plausible. Besides girls have different skills for psychology and sensitivity so they can make different art which men can't make. For me storytelling is often well done by women. Men are often too cynical to build a whole world without also shitting in it. The dramatic arc in a womans soul can be the best thing in the world. But I wouldn't just say "oh she has hight testosterone". I can sooner say it is up to literally every single piece of that artist. The whole makeup. Not just one chemical.
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Re: The seat

Postby barbarianhorde » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:59 pm

lordoflight wrote:[
I stated earlier I was talking mostly about art. When you say "I create a lot" it sounds like building. Testosterone boosts mental energy to a certain extent. I would say testosterone causes boredom and the inability to settle.

Yeah that fits. Building is the main line of the path. theres arts involved like in the building of a cathedral but getting the structure right gives the thrills.

As for your artistic merits, if your avatar was drawn by you then you are a good artist, if not, then its just your word then, until you show us something you've made.

The picture is not mine, but I appreciate it. If what I make matters you'll see it. If you won't see it it will turn out I am not as good as I think. Im a firm capitalist.
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Re: The seat

Postby The Eternal Warrior » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:32 pm

lordoflight wrote:So the ancient texts and ancient gods say Femininity is the seat of creativity. But modern science says testosterone and lust drives creativity.

What is the seat of creativity?


All of it, including being nothing; shedding the flesh and becoming 'selfless'. Femininity can be masculine when viewed from another angle, can be viewed as homosexuality in a male while masculinity can be viewed as lesbianics in females; like hooked on phonics; and the seat of creativity is just what we do with all the pain of not knowing and everything else as its passed around. Creativity and the 'seat'.... what of when there aren't any seats or not enough seats? who gets creative then?
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Re: The seat

Postby barbarianhorde » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:33 pm

The Eternal Warrior wrote:
lordoflight wrote:So the ancient texts and ancient gods say Femininity is the seat of creativity. But modern science says testosterone and lust drives creativity.

What is the seat of creativity?


All of it, including being nothing; shedding the flesh and becoming 'selfless'. Femininity can be masculine when viewed from another angle, can be viewed as homosexuality in a male while masculinity can be viewed as lesbianics in females; like hooked on phonics; and the seat of creativity is just what we do with all the pain of not knowing and everything else as its passed around. Creativity and the 'seat'.... what of when there aren't any seats or not enough seats? who gets creative then?



Well said man.
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Re: The seat

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:30 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:I don't think this is even possible. Creation is risk taking, thats just a fact.
I'm a very creative person - have no idea what my testosterone levels are - and yes, there is a certain kind of risk taking involved, but it feels unlike that when I take risks in sports or in nature.
I experience it as much more open and relaxed than physical or any aggressive type testosterone moments.
Sure, there is a strong assertiveness, sometimes in the process.
You have to be willing to really be yourself.
But I would not sum up creation as risk-taking. Not in any traditional sense of the word. In creativity, I find, you cannot be restless and impatient, at least not as a rule. An occasional frustrated shitfight, that'f fine and to be expected, creating something great is very hard work. But I experience more as letting stuff come in that is not habit and I think high testosterone states run on imprinting and habit.
I do want to see more research before I buy the theory.
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Re: The seat

Postby barbarianhorde » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:22 pm

I bet your testosterone levels are pretty high.

I think hunting and warring is all about improv and letting things come.
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Re: The seat

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:19 am

barbarianhorde wrote:I bet your testosterone levels are pretty high.
WEll, my sense is that coming from you this is a compliment, so thanks.
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Re: The seat

Postby barbarianhorde » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:50 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
barbarianhorde wrote:I bet your testosterone levels are pretty high.
WEll, my sense is that coming from you this is a compliment, so thanks.

Yeah I was just reflecting on the way you engage opponents. Like youre not afraid to take a few hits. For example, Iambiguous has a low level Im pretty sure.
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Re: The seat

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:13 pm

Karpel Tunnel


I'm a very creative person - have no idea what my testosterone levels are


I would think that when you are in the process or the throes of being or doing something creative, your testosterone levels will go down or diminish. The libido is the seat of creativity ~ sexual energy dwindles as creativity is enacted (for lack of a better word). But perhaps it is also more of an ebb and a flow - the more one uses, the more it dwindles but at the same time, energy does beget energy.

- and yes, there is a certain kind of risk taking involved, but it feels unlike that when I take risks in sports or in nature.


What kind of risk taking is involved in creating ~ unless it is a political work of art or text, like speaking out against grave injustice? Martin Luther King's I Have a Dream is definitely a work of art and anyone who believes otherwise is deaf, blind and dumb.


What do sports have to do with creativity? Wouldn't that be more in the realm of strategies and the like?

I experience it as much more open and relaxed than physical or any aggressive type testosterone moments.
Sure, there is a strong assertiveness, sometimes in the process.


You have to be open to allow the unconscious to interface with your consciousness. That sublimates the physical and the aggression so that that sexual energy can be spent for the creative.


You have to be willing to really be yourself.


You mean to allow it all to fly free in a way?
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: The seat

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:36 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:Karpel Tunnel

What kind of risk taking is involved in creating ~ unless it is a political work of art or text, like speaking out against grave injustice? Martin Luther King's I Have a Dream is definitely a work of art and anyone who believes otherwise is deaf, blind and dumb.

I think there is experienced risk taking as part of any creative process, since you have to break out of habits. You are staking new ground and yourself based on it. You are trying to create something beautiful or aesthetic in some new way which opens you to failure, even if it is only in your own eyes. You are also problem solving during creative acts, and this also again opens you to failure in your own eyes - and potentially others. If you are not creative, but working on something, you can follow the rules, do what one is supposed to, adhere to good guidelines, etc. No personal responsibility in choices. Follow the guidelines. That is a form of emotional safety. And, of course, there are many things I am not particularly creative about also. Nothing wrong with certain habits. But creativity demands finding your own line.

What do sports have to do with creativity? Wouldn't that be more in the realm of strategies and the like?
In the context of testosterone, where hunting, fighting might get categorized and sports are a modern way of using the same kinds of energies.


You have to be willing to really be yourself.


You mean to allow it all to fly free in a way?[/quote] Yes
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