moral philosophy in the lives that we live

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moral philosophy in the lives that we live

Postby iambiguous » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:19 am

If there is one thing I am clearly preoccupied with at ILP, it is relationship between moral and political value judgments and the existential tajectory of the lives that we live.

And, in almost every thread in which I post about this relationship, I eventually get around to this:

1] I was raised in the belly of the working class beast. My family/community were very conservative. Abortion was a sin.
2] I was drafted into the Army and while on my "tour of duty" in Vietnam I happened upon politically radical folks who reconfigured my thinking about abortion. And God and lots of other things.
3] after I left the Army, I enrolled in college and became further involved in left wing politics. It was all the rage back then. I became a feminist. I married a feminist. I wholeheartedly embraced a woman's right to choose.
4] then came the calamity with Mary and John. I loved them both but their engagement was foundering on the rocks that was Mary's choice to abort their unborn baby.
5] back and forth we all went. I supported Mary but I could understand the points that John was making. I could understand the arguments being made on both sides. John was right from his side and Mary was right from hers.
6] I read William Barrett's Irrational Man and came upon his conjectures regarding "rival goods".
7] Then, over time, I abandoned an objectivist frame of mind that revolved around Marxism/feminism. Instead, I became more and more embedded in existentialism. And then as more years passed I became an advocate for moral nihilism.


This because in it are embedded two experiences that were of fundamental importance in shaping and then reconfiguring my own moral and political narratives.

Over the years, I have gone from an objectivist frame of mind [right vs. wrong, good vs. evil] to a way of thinking about morality in human interactions that basically revolves around moral nihilism.

And, then, in turn, this resulted in my tumbling down into a philosophical "hole" such that for all practical purposes, "I" became increasing more fragmented.

This hole:

If I am always of the opinion that 1] my own values are rooted in dasein and 2] that there are no objective values "I" can reach, then every time I make one particular moral/political leap, I am admitting that I might have gone in the other direction...or that I might just as well have gone in the other direction. Then "I" begins to fracture and fragment to the point there is nothing able to actually keep it all together. At least not with respect to choosing sides morally and politically.

In other words, I am no longer able to think of myself as being in sync with the "real me" in sync with "the right thing to do".

So, I decided to create this thread in order for others to at least make the attempt to describe their own value judgments existentially. Values as they became interwined over the course of their lives in "experiences, relationships and information, knowledge and ideas."

The part where theory is tested in practice out in particular contexts out in particular worlds.

This thread is not for those ever intent on providing us with "general descriptions" of human interactions. Interactions that are then described almost entirely using technical or academic language.

Instead, this thread is for trying to explain [to the best of your ability] why you think you came to value some behaviors over others. Linking both the experiences you had and the ideas that you came upon that shaped and molded your thinking in reacting to them.

From time to time I will bring it back to the top in case any new members might have an interest in this.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: moral philosophy in the lives that we live

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:04 am

Iambiguous got into his scared mode when I posted this, so he made a thread to ignore it

viewtopic.php?p=2711095#p2711095
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Re: moral philosophy in the lives that we live

Postby iambiguous » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:45 am

Ecmandu wrote:Iambiguous got into his scared mode when I posted this, so he made a thread to ignore it

viewtopic.php?p=2711095#p2711095


Beat it Kid.

Please...?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: moral philosophy in the lives that we live

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:50 am

iambiguous wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Iambiguous got into his scared mode when I posted this, so he made a thread to ignore it

viewtopic.php?p=2711095#p2711095


Beat it Kid.

Please...?


Why? Because you don't want to hurt me?

I am willing to accept the pain of being defeated on objective morality for the entire cosmos, are you prepared to lose a debate that makes no meaning, and thus you have nothing to hold the pain of the cosmos for ?

It's a good deal for you
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Re: moral philosophy in the lives that we live

Postby iambiguous » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:11 am

Ecmandu wrote:[Why? Because you don't want to hurt me?


Okay, Kid, I challenge you to beat it!
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: moral philosophy in the lives that we live

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:17 am

iambiguous wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:[Why? Because you don't want to hurt me?


Okay, Kid, I challenge you to beat it!


Alright, make it official with Carleas in the debate section.
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Re: moral philosophy in the lives that we live

Postby iambiguous » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:26 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:[Why? Because you don't want to hurt me?


Okay, Kid, I challenge you to beat it!


Alright, make it official with Carleas in the debate section.


Oh, well. I was hoping to get some actual substantive posts here pertaining to, among the other things, the OP. But it looks like it is going to be you all the way down.

So, let's get it over with: :banana-dance:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: moral philosophy in the lives that we live

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:01 pm

What has come of interest to me of late has been the relationship
between the individual and the state. That the conflict between the
state and the individual over such aspects of life as rights, obligations,
needs, desires, morals... to name a few conflicts between the state
and the individual. What rights do individual have within the state?
What obligations does the state have to individual and what obligations
does the individual have to the state? Which human needs are
to be procured by the state and what needs are to met by the
individual? What exactly is the role of morals in a modern state
between an individual and the state?

to be sure that much of what we call morals are really just actions and
interactions between individuals and nothing to do with the state.
for example, the politeness between individuals, saying please and thank
you and excuse me, are interactions, customs between people that don't
require any state intervention. But at what point does the state need
to intervene in relations between two people? Violence of actions or
violence of words? or at what level of disagreements need intervention
from the state?

At what point does the state have the right to dictate and
interfere with our actions and beliefs? This change in
our understanding of what point does the state intervene becomes
apparent with our rapidly changing attitude toward Marijuana.
From arresting people to having a joint to arranging for
cannabis stores in dozens of states. A slightly different
change in the state and individual relationship is
the changing attitude toward homosexuality. From the state
attack upon individuals right from Oscar Wilde to Alan Turing and the change to
acceptance of individuals rights such as Rosie and Elton John.

This movement of changing attitudes toward social actions leads
me to suggest that our society is still in the process of changing
and this is a good, a very good thing. We haven't become a static society
like Egypt and China and as long as change is possible within our society,
we are still a society that has a chance to have success and advance toward
some goal. Because of this movement of changing attitudes, it gives me hope
that we still can achieve and progress and continue the process of becoming
human, fully human. Once we stop growing and stop the process, we
begin the death of our society. And part of our continuing efforts
to change and grow is this ever changing process between the
the relationship between the state and the individual.

We must begin to understand this process and become
alert and aware of the process of change between the state
and the individual.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: moral philosophy in the lives that we live

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:44 pm

Again, it's iambiguous with either a wink or dancing banana telling me that objective morality is off topic to him. Ironic.

Post in debates that you accept the debate ...

Then you can really show those objectivist !
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Re: moral philosophy in the lives that we live

Postby lordoflight » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:48 pm

Morality is objective. Whatever gives me pleasure is good. Whatever gives people the most pleasure is good.

The old fashioned objectivists will call me a degenerate or hedonist. But then I say this. If I party all day, do heroin, and never do math or science, then overall there will be less pleasure in the future. There will be no roads. No food. People will starve to death. Also, radio music. It is simply not pleasurable to begin with, so it can't even be called hedonistic. I would say classical music is pleasurable and hedonistic and gives energy. Giving energy is pleasurable therefore good.

Imagine it in the reverse. Every good deed you did caused pain. Eating food was disgusting. Having sex was traumatizing. Instead of feeling healthy after exercise, you felt sick. Then life would not even be worth living. What would be the point of life without pleasure?

Now you may argue that cleaning your room gives back pain, is boring and sucks and painful. Cleaning your room is not natural, it is not in nature. So if it gives you back pains dont do it. Hire a maid, then have sex with the maid for pleasure. That is natural and good.
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Re: moral philosophy in the lives that we live

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:11 pm

This is getting absurd ....

Obviously, if iambiguous refuses to debate me, to render objective morality or not, once and for all, then him following everyone into every replied thread with his gig, is just trolling.

Iambiguous, go to the thread in debate an accept my challenge.

I can refute everything you say in every thread, but you are such a troll with your winks and bananas that I'm not going to waste my time with you in an ordinary thread, it has to be a debate in the debate section
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Re: moral philosophy in the lives that we live

Postby iambiguous » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:30 pm

I asked folks here to focus in on a particular value judgment of their own. Then to take us back over the course of their life [as I did above re abortion] and to intertwine their experiences and their encounters with ideas raised by philosophers. Such that they explore how and why "I" here came to embody one moral and political narrative rather than another.

The whole idea being that, in using the tools of philosophy, one is either able to subsume dasein, conflicting goods and political exonomy in an argument that transcends these existential contraptions, or one can explain how, in confronting their own conflicts with others [or reactions to specific contexts from the news] they do not themselves believe that their own "I" here is down in the hole that mine is.

Instead, in ny view, we basically get more "general descriptions" embedded in intellectual contraptions predicated on the particular definition and meaning they give to particular words placed in a particular order.

That's not the "I" that I am intent on exploring here.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: moral philosophy in the lives that we live

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:49 pm

iambiguous wrote:I asked folks here to focus in on a particular value judgment of their own. Then to take us back over the course of their life [as I did above re abortion] and to intertwine their experiences and their encounters with ideas raised by philosophers. Such that they explore how and why "I" here came to embody one moral and political narrative rather than another.

The whole idea being that, in using the tools of philosophy, one is either able to subsume dasein, conflicting goods and political exonomy in an argument that transcends these existential contraptions, or one can explain how, in confronting their own conflicts with others [or reactions to specific contexts from the news] they do not themselves believe that their own "I" here is down in the hole that mine is.

Instead, in ny view, we basically get more "general descriptions" embedded in intellectual contraptions predicated on the particular definition and meaning they give to particular words placed in a particular order.

That's not the "I" that I am intent on exploring here.


I made a very simple challenge, a challenge that you feel threatened by because it bring you out of your troll hole!

Objective good is non zero sum, 100% consensual realities

Objective bad is non consensual zero sum realities

I define this reality as evil.

Then I go to further state that in an evil reality, anything that is more consensual and less zero sum is the good, and the opposite, the bad.

For example: abortion

The anti abortionists say there are two lives instead of one, and both must be protected.

Then there's consent.

The mother is not consenting to a being that's part of her body until the umbilical cord is cut, since it's a part of her body still, it is her choice... once the child is no longer a part of her body, it is no longer her choice.
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Re: moral philosophy in the lives that we live

Postby iambiguous » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:21 pm

Ecmandu wrote:For example: abortion

The anti abortionists say there are two lives instead of one, and both must be protected.

Then there's consent.

The mother is not consenting to a being that's part of her body until the umbilical cord is cut, since it's a part of her body still, it is her choice... once the child is no longer a part of her body, it is no longer her choice.


This certainly crushes the arguments of the anti-abortionists!!!

So, if they still insist that the unborn have a natural right to life outside the womb, they are clearly being irrational.

And this is necessarily true because the assumptions made by you above are wholly in sync with the very ontological and teleological foundations of existence itself.

Indeed, only the existence of God Himself can trump it.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: moral philosophy in the lives that we live

Postby iambiguous » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:49 pm

As promised...

"From time to time I will bring this thread back to the top in case any new members might have an interest in this."

This being an attempt to connect the dots between the moral and political values that you subscribe to here and now and the extent to which you attribute them more to either 1] the lessons that you've learned in exploring ethics philosophically or 2] a particular experiential trajectory such that, given the life you've lived, you were basically predisposed [for all practical purposes] to embody one set of values rather than another.

For example, think of Donald Trump's children and the children of Barack Obama. Clearly, their own moral and political values were or are going to shaped and molded "at home". On the other hand, imagine them acknowledging this and then wondering what specific knowledge can be garnered using the tools of philosophy. Knowledge accumulated allowing one to concoct a moral narrative and a political agenda most in sync with that which all rational and virtuous men and women are obligated to embrace.

That's what most intrigues me about value judgments. The parts embedded existentially in dasein more or less than the parts embedded essentially in one or another deontological/objectivist assessment.

Now, if you wish to explore this here with me, be prepared to bring your own value judgments "down to earth". And not just embedded in "general descriptions" or in the abstract technical jargon of Will Durant's "epistemologists".

Please read the OP first in other words.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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