Colin Kaepernick

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

Colin Kaepernick

Postby omar » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:31 am

I'm tired of this cat.
New ad for nike assumes that Kap knew in advance that his protest would cost him everything. This guy is not martyr of his cause. He is now a disgruntled employee barking at the courts that he has been black-listed by the NFL. You don't do that when you expected your actions to cost you your career. His career was taken from him and he is trying to get it back. But, fuck, if you intend on following whatever right you give to yourself, I don't see how he will ever, EVER, be employed again by any public organization.
It is surprising that Nike would take such a risk.

While I am at it, let me give you my take on the Anthem controversy.

You have a right to your persona, but not to the uniform of the team you play for. Payton Manning monetized the fame he achieved with many commercials, but when did he wear the Colts' jersey during the pitch? The Colts organization have a right to control their image in advertising. The shouldn't be dragged to this or that advertising campaign, specially when such campaigns may affect negatively their investors. Oh yeah, NFL teams are for-profit organizations. So, a private citizen has a constitutional right to protest--but not while wearing the uniform of a for-profit organization. Every action that jeopardizes a company's bottom line is terms for termination if not corrected. If taking a knee boosted profits, we would not be having this conversation.

Better enjoy the NFL season because I have no doubt that the next CBA will lead to a lock-out. I wish the players continue to take a knee in defiance of the NFL's anthem policy. I want to see if, to save profit, owners would bench their biggest stars (who may take a knee) and risk a loss that might take them out of the playoffs. I also would like to see a lockout happen because while better, bigger, contracts are goods that all players can agree on-- not so with the knee controversy. Will they all support a players strike over a demand to include the right of players to take a knee? Probably not and thus a return to normalcy. I'm tired of one group of people becoming the representatives of all players.
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:14 am

Well, speculation about what he knew in advance is well...speculation.

Peyton Manning wore the colts jersey to promote Papa Johns, the pizza company that just threw it's founder off the board because the PR company they hired to fix his image of being a racist asshole decided that they couldn't work with a racist asshole so they quit and who he really is became public. Look at a 1 year stock chart for Papa Johns, then compare it to a 1 year chart for their competitor Dominos. His shareholders have a right to be able to seek returns without wading through a minefield of that kind of shit...if we're talking about people's responsibilities.

The NFL only recently became "for profit". They were granted non profit status for the vast majority or their existence. I guess they switched that over about 2 seasons ago.... Not sure how old this controversy is with this player, but I think the for profit thing may be actually a factual error in your post at least at the time this all started.

The thing about him wanting his job back....It seems pretty compelling for the case that he may be sincere in his beliefs and acting on principle, that he's certainly not broke and is making ass loads of cash off the Nike deal.

Now onto the part about private citizens rights being revoked by the companies they work for...I'm not sure how I feel about that. Do you think that's just? Does the NFL think that's just? If they do, and they have a strong case that it is, then why not just come out and say, "we fired and blackballed this guy because he's protesting in uniform. Here is a convincing argument that doing so is just." Why would they do something that they consider to be just and then not be forthcoming about doing it? Strange behavior indeed.

Now onto the main part of what I think gets a lot of people on this issue....

The US, has increasingly militarized it's police. Mandatory minimums are tearing families apart and ruining people's lives. The prison system is for profit. The police have been granted de facto rights to usurp the judicial system and administer justice on the scene increasingly. The internet has brought this issue to light and a great number of people...and an increasing number of people either know someone, or themselves have been on the shit end of a police encounter. Both sides of a highly polarized political environment for the most part agree that reform is necessary, and I suspect that it's not happening because of a combination of profit motives, bureaucracy, disproportionate power in the hands of those who determine when and how those reforms occur, and a variety of other reasons not the least of which might be the historic reality that poor people, and people who are of minority races have traditionally not fared as well as wealthier people of majority races when they encounter the criminal justice system.

So this guy makes more money than he ever thought he would. He's sitting pretty for the rest of his life. He decides that since in the recent past it's become a broadly discussed issue that the things I stated above are occurring, or at least being publicized at increasing rate that he's going to use the platform that he earned through his talents to bring light to it and attempt to add some legitimacy to the voices that agree with his take on the matter.....that matter being the issue of police brutality and the disproportionate application of criminal law across varying demographics, and then all of a sudden, he's vilified by exactly the people who benefit from things being the way they are. Crazy.

They come out on the news and start talking about the troops, and veterans, and whether America is a good country and they say that he hates the troops and America and all that sort of stuff.

But he was talking about police brutality and the disproportionate application of justice with regard to varying demographics. He wasn't talking about any of those things.

Here's the real kicker. You kneel to show respect for a king, or a god when you pray, in any other context this is an acceptable thing to do. When Tebow uses his platform to push Christianity, he's a hero. When Kaepernick uses his to shine a light on police brutality, he's anti-American and hates the troops.

Ridiculous.
Last edited by Mr Reasonable on Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:23 am

I was once charged with a serious crime that would have yielded me between 10 to 99 years in a state prison. I am a white male. I had a lot of money. I paid enough to the attorneys to have bought a house. When I was arrested, I called a friend and they brought enough money to buy a nice, used, late model mercedes with 30k miles to the jail and I was out in about 10 hours. I spent the next 3 years living my life as a normal person and slowly paying my way through the justice system with my slacks creased and my tie just right and my expensive watches and my team of 3 attorneys. During this time I was in and out of the district court on a regular basis for hearings etc, and in the district court here's what you see. No one who is a defendant is sitting in the rows waiting in a suit. Everyone is in shackles and they bring them on a bus from the prison. Every one of those people is black. I'm the only white guy and I'm the only one not in shackles walking around free for 3 years.

I saw a 17 year old kid sentenced to life. I saw a guy sentenced to 25 years, another for 15....I could go on and on. They all had public defenders who didn't even bother to file all the possible motions.

One day I was there and there was a guy in shackles who'd been in jail for 2 years awaiting trial. He'd been trying to do what I was doing...file every motion....fire a lawyer and hire another...fight the case. But his public defenders kept quitting and he'd been in there, innocent until proven guilty, for 2 years. When they read his charge, I realized that he was charged with a lesser charge than me. I was trying so hard to get my charged reduced to what he had so that I could just do a 3 year mandatory minimum instead of 10 to 99.

He was still there waiting for his latest lawyer to come when it came time for me to plead. I got my charge reduced to the same thing as him and ended up getting shuffled into a program where I didn't have to go to prison. Something between probation and being locked up. AND...I only got 1 year of that. You should have seen the look on his face as they reduced my charge to his level, and I walked out the door.

They'll keep him there another year and let his public defenders keep quitting, until he's ready to plead guilty. Then once he does, they'll give him the minimum of 3 years and he can leave with credit for time served....but that's if he's lucky.

Because he fought the case they'll probably implement a trial tax and give him the max of 10 for that charge, time served, and then he'll have to get parole in a few years...assuming he pleads guilty. If he doesn't then he'll just keep sitting there.

THIS SHIT HAPPENS EVERY DAY.
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby omar » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:08 am

Reasonable

Well, speculation about what he knew in advance is well...speculation.


Not denying that it is speculation, but better to speculate from the facts. Kap was convinced that he had the right to protest while in uniform, hence the court case. Because of his court case we can assume and speculate that he thought that his talent would still ensure that he would be a part of this league, rather than convinced his actions would cost him everything. That's how I see it.


The NFL only recently became "for profit". They were granted non profit status for the vast majority or their existence. I guess they switched that over about 2 seasons ago.... Not sure how old this controversy is with this player, but I think the for profit thing may be actually a factual error in your post at least at the time this all started.


You're right, but teams did pay taxes before that and to the teams went the bulk of the profits so my argument stands. They are not public, but they do have investors and for them, these teams are for profit investments.

Now onto the part about private citizens rights being revoked by the companies they work for...I'm not sure how I feel about that. Do you think that's just? Does the NFL think that's just? If they do, and they have a strong case that it is, then why not just come out and say, "we fired and blackballed this guy because he's protesting in uniform. Here is a convincing argument that doing so is just." Why would they do something that they consider to be just and then not be forthcoming about doing it? Strange behavior indeed.


NFL teams don't have to say why they don't hire player so and so. With thousands of players available each year that go unsigned (Kurt Wagner was working a nine to five job) teams can afford to pass on anyone for a lot of "reasons" that are quite frankly petty. "He will be a distraction". What?! They are supposed to be professionals or easily distracted youths?. The more likely reason is that such and such player is not worth a risk, whatever the team perceives as a risk, and, because supply exceeds demands, they can afford to do so. If you make money from selling over-priced seats, will you hire someone that may cause potential buyers to stay at home and watch the game on tv? Brady being the exception.

The US, has increasingly militarized it's police. Mandatory minimums are tearing families apart and ruining people's lives. The prison system is for profit. The police have been granted de facto rights to usurp the judicial system and administer justice on the scene increasingly. The internet has brought this issue to light and a great number of people...and an increasing number of people either know someone, or themselves have been on the shit end of a police encounter. Both sides of a highly polarized political environment for the most part agree that reform is necessary, and I suspect that it's not happening because of a combination of profit motives, bureaucracy, disproportionate power in the hands of those who determine when and how those reforms occur, and a variety of other reasons not the least of which might be the historic reality that poor people, and people who are of minority races have traditionally not fared as well as wealthier people of majority races when they encounter the criminal justice system.


That's all fine and dandy. No one is arguing that there are no reasons TO protest, but that you can protest without dragging an entire organization into that protest. Is he Kap the next MLKJr? Sadly, the answer is no. I agree with all of what you have said and it troubles me, but I believe that this is a democracy, that a democracy is the best way to address such issues, that I served in the military because I believe in protecting our freedom, like the right to vote which too many take for granted, including a certain Kaepernick. The for-me case at the courts further cements my view that his outrage was genuine at a personal level but that his vision is lacking.
Suppose that he wins the case. He gets money. How does that improve the situation of thousands of the black community in jail? Suppose that arbitration compels the NFL as a whole to protect the right of people to stand, sit, or knee during the anthem: how is that going to help reduce police brutality? It may have many effects including turning the league into a platform for SJW albeit in front of a largely empty stadium, thus taking away from the very impact the silent protest meant to achieve. Of course this is only speculation. Who knows, maybe without voting, without political action in the traditional sense, maybe the ills facing minorities will be cured. "Oh we never knew until Kap took a knee and opened our eyes!"


So this guy makes more money than he ever thought he would. He's sitting pretty for the rest of his life. He decides that since in the recent past it's become a broadly discussed issue that the things I stated above are occurring, or at least being publicized at increasing rate that he's going to use the platform that he earned through his talents to bring light to it and attempt to add some legitimacy to the voices that agree with his take on the matter.....that matter being the issue of police brutality and the disproportionate application of criminal law across varying demographics, and then all of a sudden, he's vilified by exactly the people who benefit from things being the way they are. Crazy.


He could've organized a march in his off time. Worked on a spike lee project. His public persona, which he owns, can be effective without being in uniform. He was free to do any of that but thought that the ONLY way, the ONLY recourse he had, was to be subversive while in uniform for a brand he does not own, has no care in protecting. We will see soon enough if this Nike ad campaign experiment will yield positive results for a for profit company. Already Missouri has dropped Nike, but while some reports suggests a negative impact to their business, other news outlets report a surge in their sales. We will see if given the platform Nike has given him, conditions on the issues that supposedly animated Kap are affected by the fiat of advertisement alone. Again, in my opinion, only voting, becoming a voting block, a political force, can affect society in the dramatic way required to change the conditions for minorities and this cat just doesn't get it.


Here's the real kicker. You kneel to show respect for a king, or a god when you pray, in any other context this is an acceptable thing to do. When Tebow uses his platform to push Christianity, he's a hero. When Kaepernick uses his to shine a light on police brutality, he's anti-American and hates the troops.


Kap made it a point to tie his protest to the national anthem. Tebow took a knee before games, during, after, but he did not make it a point do it during the anthem. Tebow was good for business. As I said before, if Kap's kneeling was profitable then we would not be having this conversation. If Nike doubles its profit after the Kap Campaign, I wouldn't put it past the realm of reality that Kap gets a contract simply because teams want to put assess on the stands and if they made the relation Kap=$ that might happen.

But will any of that reduce police brutality for example?
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby barbarianhorde » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:19 pm

Kaepernicks new gig at Nike is another job on Trumps conto. The economy is sizzling.
Passions are really good for industry, I hope people will stay angry.
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby barbarianhorde » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:59 pm

What about black privilege? What about the privilege of getting to ruin the NFL and being called a hero? Face it if he was white and pulled some stunt he'd be shot dead.
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:14 am

What about black privilege?

Black privilege deserves its own thread, so does illegal alien privilege.
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:30 am

barbarianhorde wrote:What about black privilege? What about the privilege of getting to ruin the NFL and being called a hero? Face it if he was white and pulled some stunt he'd be shot dead.


A white guy would be shot dead for this?

The NFL is ruined?

You alright man?
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby omar » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:47 am

barbarianhorde wrote:What about black privilege? What about the privilege of getting to ruin the NFL and being called a hero? Face it if he was white and pulled some stunt he'd be shot dead.


That's a self-serving hypothesis.
Getting shot by police in the backs no privilege. Being targeted by police department profiling is no privilege. Don't mistake my aim. I am not saying that there is no reason for Kap to protest but that he should have protested in his time while wearing only his face instead of dragging the name of an organization to places it did not want to travel because their profitability depends on their wide appeal.
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby barbarianhorde » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:14 am

Yeah well thats what Im sayin innit? The dude is so privileged he gets to ruin the game and business for millions of Americans and he gets to do it because he is black. He can do no wrong, anything a back person says is per definition beyond reproach. Except of course if he speaks kindly about a white man then he is the devil himself.
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby WendyDarling » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:38 pm

Kaepernick ruined the US national anthem at sporting events, a time honored tradition as well.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby omar » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:41 am

barbarianhorde wrote:Yeah well thats what Im sayin innit? The dude is so privileged he gets to ruin the game and business for millions of Americans and he gets to do it because he is black. He can do no wrong, anything a back person says is per definition beyond reproach. Except of course if he speaks kindly about a white man then he is the devil himself.


No. He's ruining the business of the organization that employed him, using the jersey that belongs to an owner and not to himself. This isn't about America as a whole because while his protests may have ruined the Sunday NFL experience for some, for many in the african-american community, he represents something good about an NFL player that has not forgotten where he came from and kept it real rather than merely keeping it commercial enough to sell a product. Gotta keep both sides in front of you.

American history is a long history of suffering for the black community. Coming from that background makes the voice of african-americans stand out. It is not that what they say is beyond reproach. In fact, when Kanye commented that the success of slavery must have been possible, partially, because it was the slave's choice, his comments where ridiculed from all sides. When Omarosa began her publicity campaign for her book, saying horrible things about a particular white man (or is it orange?) she was/is dismissed with a "Bye Felicia".
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby omar » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:53 am

WendyDarling wrote:Kaepernick ruined the US national anthem at sporting events, a time honored tradition as well.


That sounds more like your opinion Darling. Protesting (and not just because of unhinged police brutality against blacks) during the play of the national anthem was not invented by Kap. Tommie Smith and John Carlos raised their fist during the anthem during the 1968 Olympic games medal ceremony.
I don't care about the consequences to the anthem. Those that respect the flag will not change their mind because someone took a knee or raised their fist. Those that do not respect the anthem will simply remain unmoved.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._nati ... m_protests
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:24 pm

omar wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:Kaepernick ruined the US national anthem at sporting events, a time honored tradition as well.


That sounds more like your opinion Darling. Protesting (and not just because of unhinged police brutality against blacks) during the play of the national anthem was not invented by Kap. Tommie Smith and John Carlos raised their fist during the anthem during the 1968 Olympic games medal ceremony.
I don't care about the consequences to the anthem. Those that respect the flag will not change their mind because someone took a knee or raised their fist. Those that do not respect the anthem will simply remain unmoved.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._nati ... m_protests

It's not an opinion when the anthem is no longer being played at sporting events (many non-pro leagues have quit playing the anthem), that's a fact that may be implemented at even more sporting events which is one of the only places that the national anthem is still played on a regular basis. So Kaepernick and his misguided cult of overpaid personality and bandwagoneers literally killed the playing of the national anthem at all sporting events around the US.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby barbarianhorde » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:46 am

That's what money does to bad people they use it to destroy everyone that was good to them.
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby Mr Reasonable » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:35 am

WendyDarling wrote:
omar wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:Kaepernick ruined the US national anthem at sporting events, a time honored tradition as well.


That sounds more like your opinion Darling. Protesting (and not just because of unhinged police brutality against blacks) during the play of the national anthem was not invented by Kap. Tommie Smith and John Carlos raised their fist during the anthem during the 1968 Olympic games medal ceremony.
I don't care about the consequences to the anthem. Those that respect the flag will not change their mind because someone took a knee or raised their fist. Those that do not respect the anthem will simply remain unmoved.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._nati ... m_protests

It's not an opinion when the anthem is no longer being played at sporting events (many non-pro leagues have quit playing the anthem), that's a fact that may be implemented at even more sporting events which is one of the only places that the national anthem is still played on a regular basis. So Kaepernick and his misguided cult of overpaid personality and bandwagoneers literally killed the playing of the national anthem at all sporting events around the US.



Is that worse than police beating the shit out of and or killing people with a trial?
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:04 pm

The police beat the shit out of or worse everyone who resists arrest and/or fails to comply...so? Behave, do what the police order, and you won't get beat...simple.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:40 pm

Don't you think that people should have some basic rights and that police should be accountable for violating them?
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby barbarianhorde » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:32 pm

Okay you convinced me. To give to dude a chance and he took it.



I guess he has a good point because he makes it like a sane person. He should probably go into politics. There aren't a lot of democrats that leave my stomach be.
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby barbarianhorde » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:43 pm

He can run for governor and swing Wisconsin.
Im completely in awe of Trumps ultranobility, but America still needs the two sided coin to keep spinning free in the air.
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby barbarianhorde » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:44 pm

You do not want your government unified. From a European to Americans, trust me on this.
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby WendyDarling » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:18 am

What basic rights are the police not allowing?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby barbarianhorde » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:25 am

Come on are you seriously going to deny that police gets away with shooting innocents a bit too much and justice gets way with putting people for life because they were smoking in te wrong zipcode?

If we as Trump beasts can't admit to that theres some injustice left in America even from the more conservative side, then we are not being conservative enough of the pursuit of happiness. You can't expect people to go on that pursuit when some serious humiliations take place with only a mocking grin by the authorities. It was far worse under Obama of course then it happened every month that a white cop shot a black person. But like ICE and the separated families people only notice because they need stones to throw at mr Trump and he is a real leader so he will step up and solve it. Obama never showed up once in a ghetto. Michelle Obama asks thousands of dollars to people for attending her book presentation. Trump forfeits his presidential salary. He is the man to make peace with the people on the block.
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby barbarianhorde » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:35 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:
barbarianhorde wrote:What about black privilege? What about the privilege of getting to ruin the NFL and being called a hero? Face it if he was white and pulled some stunt he'd be shot dead.


A white guy would be shot dead for this?

I wouldn't rule it out.

The NFL is ruined?

You alright man?

Im alright but I may be wrong in this one. The NFL is being used for politics in a decent way. By a dude with black privilege.
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Re: Colin Kaepernick

Postby WendyDarling » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:45 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:Come on are you seriously going to deny that police gets away with shooting innocents a bit too much and justice gets way with putting people for life because they were smoking in te wrong zipcode?

If we as Trump beasts can't admit to that theres some injustice left in America even from the more conservative side, then we are not being conservative enough of the pursuit of happiness. You can't expect people to go on that pursuit when some serious humiliations take place with only a mocking grin by the authorities. It was far worse under Obama of course then it happened every month that a white cop shot a black person. But like ICE and the separated families people only notice because they need stones to throw at mr Trump and he is a real leader so he will step up and solve it. Obama never showed up once in a ghetto. Michelle Obama asks thousands of dollars to people for attending her book presentation. Trump forfeits his presidential salary. He is the man to make peace with the people on the block.


Name some of the innocents please. Hey, way more unarmed white people get shot by police every year and they ain't throwing a hissy fit trying to act like their bad behavior isn't the reason it happened.
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