Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes against

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Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes against

Postby Greatest I am » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:17 pm

Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes against humanity?

I see more than one Jesus speaking through the bible. The good Jesus would likely condemn while the less moral and good Jesus that most follow might not. A number of his policies have been found wanting, --- in moral terms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUfGRN4HVrQ

Dogma says that Jesus ascended to heaven and his rightful place as judge of the universe at Yahweh’s right hand. The pure hand says tradition.

Would Jesus dethrone Yahweh for the insane genocidal example he shows for a god, or would Jesus somehow justify what Yahweh, and himself to Trinitarians, did?

Would Jesus say that genocide was good?

Heaven forbid.

Condemn or Condone?

I say Jesus would condemn Yahweh.

What say you my moral friends?

https://vimeo.com/7038401

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:34 pm

I can work with the question 'should Jesus have condemned Yahweh, given what know about both from the OT and the NT-? And I would answer then yes. Or have condmened the presentation of Yahweh, at least. But as far as we know he did not and even made some statments saying he didn't judge Yahweh. And, of course, Jesus was likely fallible. As a kind of rabbi he might have found it hard, cognitive dissonence and all, to face his true reactions to the OT, let alone say them.
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:53 pm

Jesus is one aspect of a trinity Therefore Jesus is also Yahweh. Would He condemn Himself?
To what genocide do you refer?
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:05 pm

OP - you try to use God's son to justify your comdemnation of God. This is a bit wicked. Use your own conscience instead.
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby surreptitious75 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:10 am

Ierrellus wrote:
Jesus is one aspect of a trinity Therefore Jesus is also Yahweh

This directly contradicts the First Commandment which states that there cannot be any worship of false gods
Elevating Jesus to a God like status when he was a Prophet and Messenger is explicitly making him such a god

Mary the mother of Jesus is also explicitly made a false goddess by being given God like status
Although for the first three hundred years of Christianity she was not the mother of God at all

And so Christians over time violated on two occasions the most powerful Commandment of all and still do so today
False gods is not only a reference to Satan or Lucifer but anybody elevated to the status of God which is forbidden

This is not just the First Commandment of Christianity but also of Judaism and Islam
This is why Jews and Muslims do not believe in the Holy Trinity but just the one God

Also Trinitarianism makes no sense logically because it cannot be possible for Jesus to be dead after he was crucificed while God is still alive
Christians distorted the message of God by giving Jesus God like status and is why God had to send an other Prophet after him [ Mohammad ]

I am an atheist but of the three scriptures [ Torah / Bible / Koran ] it stands that Islam is the one that makes the most sense from a logical perspective
In Judaism Jesus is a blasphemer while in Christianity he is a God but in Islam he is what he is actually supposed to be namely a Prophet and Messenger
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:29 am

surreptitious75 wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:
Jesus is one aspect of a trinity Therefore Jesus is also Yahweh

This directly contradicts the First Commandment which states that there cannot be any worship of false gods
Elevating Jesus to a God like status when he was a Prophet and Messenger is explicitly making him such a god
It wouldn't be elevating what is not God to God's status if Jesus is an aspect of God. Could an all powerful deity place a portion of himself in a human body`? Well, why not? And it would be odd to have an atheist argue that this is the wrong faith and wrong belief. There are mysterious aspect to all religions.


Also Trinitarianism makes no sense logically because it cannot be possible for Jesus to be dead after he was crucificed while God is still alive
Christians distorted the message of God by giving Jesus God like status and is why God had to send an other Prophet after him [ Mohammad ]
Are you an atheist explaining why God had to send another prophet?

I am an atheist but of the three scriptures [ Torah / Bible / Koran ] it stands that Islam is the one that makes the most sense from a logical perspective
In Judaism Jesus is a blasphemer while in Christianity he is a God but in Islam he is what he is actually supposed to be namely a Prophet and Messenger
Supposed to be according to people who disagree with other people. Unless you, as an atheist, have direct insight into God's intentions, I can't see why your conclusions should be trusted.

Further there are oddities in all three religions and we have no good way to measure the oddities on an oddity illogical scale. Virgins waiting in Heaven vs. Walking on water. I get a reading of five for both on my oddity meter, but I am not sure if my meter is Kosher or Halal or.....
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:03 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
It would not be elevating what is not God to Gods status if Jesus is an aspect of God. Could an all powerful deity place a portion of himself in a human
body? Well why not? And it would be odd to have an atheist argue that this is the wrong faith and wrong belief. There are mysterious aspect to all religions

Jesus was a Prophet and Messenger so cannot be an aspect of God as well as Islam absolutely forbids anyone being equal to Allah
I am only pointing out flaws in Christianity that pertain to treating Jesus as God based upon its own Commandment and Scripture

The fact that I am an atheist is of no relevance at all
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby felix dakat » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:21 pm

This is a fascinating question which has perplexed people for nearly 20 centuries. In the second century, Marcion of Sinope taught that the teachings of Jesus were incompatible with the actions of Yahweh in Hebrew scriptures. Following Plato he called the Creator of the evil material world the "demiurge". Jesus Christ revealed a new God who was previously unknown to the world. This God was Supreme and above feelings of rivalry, anger and evil The Supreme God afflicts no punishment, takes no offense and is not to be feared. Marcion, of course, was condemned as a heretic by the Proto-orthodox Christian fathers.

I agree that there seems to be more than one Jesus in the Bible. This can easily be illustrated by the differences between the synoptic gospels and the Gospel of John. Many theologians and preachers have made careers of attempting to reconcile the various Jesuses characterized in the books of the New Testament. The apocalyptical Jesus of The Book of Revelation might himself be interpreted as genocidal on a global scale and hardly in a position to condemn Yahweh. The Jesus who gave the Sermon on the Mount of the Gospel of Matthew depicts a very different God one whose example of not judging and loving unconditionally we are challenged to follow.

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:27 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:Jesus was a Prophet and Messenger so cannot be an aspect of God as well as Islam absolutely forbids anyone being equal to Allah
That's your interpretation of what is possible for deities and your interpretation of what parts of Christianity and the Bible to prioritize. Others disagree.
I am only pointing out flaws in Christianity that pertain to treating Jesus as God based upon its own Commandment and Scripture
Actually that's not all of what you are doing. You used an appeal to religious authority to support you case.

The fact that I am an atheist is of no relevance at all
Of course it does. How can an atheist use an appeal to religious authority?

Further why should deities and miracles conform to what we think is logical. Even in our mundane world we have discovered things which operate in ways that were considered illogical. A lot of QM. It seemed illogical that particles could also be waves. Those seemed like mutually exclusive categories, until they were not. To think you can rule things about based on what from your perspective seems illogical seems confused me, esopecially in the context of deities and miracles and mysteries.

So yes, for parts of your argument you being an atheist does not matter, as in the part I responded to in the previous paragraph. But you appealing to Islam as an authority, your status as atheist is relevent. And you did it again in this post.

If you were a Musliim criticizing Christianity from that perspective, no.

From anyone's perspective, once we have Deities that are way beyond us, miracles and mysteries, to come in and then start saying this version of the deity is more logical just seems like hubris to me.
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:45 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:I can work with the question 'should Jesus have condemned Yahweh, given what know about both from the OT and the NT-? And I would answer then yes. Or have condmened the presentation of Yahweh, at least. But as far as we know he did not and even made some statments saying he didn't judge Yahweh. And, of course, Jesus was likely fallible. As a kind of rabbi he might have found it hard, cognitive dissonence and all, to face his true reactions to the OT, let alone say them.


The correct moral judgement.

As to judging, I do not recall Jesus saying to not judge. That would go against what he likely taught from scriptures, if he lived at all that is.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

To test, of course, is to judge.

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:46 am

Ierrellus wrote:Jesus is one aspect of a trinity Therefore Jesus is also Yahweh. Would He condemn Himself?
To what genocide do you refer?


If the Jesus you know is moral, what would his judgement of himself be?

How many have you counted in scriptures?

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:48 am

Fixed Cross wrote:OP - you try to use God's son to justify your comdemnation of God. This is a bit wicked. Use your own conscience instead.


Done that already and the fact that I can use Jesus is rather telling. No?

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:57 am

felix dakat wrote:This is a fascinating question which has perplexed people for nearly 20 centuries. In the second century, Marcion of Sinope taught that the teachings of Jesus were incompatible with the actions of Yahweh in Hebrew scriptures. Following Plato he called the Creator of the evil material world the "demiurge". Jesus Christ revealed a new God who was previously unknown to the world. This God was Supreme and above feelings of rivalry, anger and evil The Supreme God afflicts no punishment, takes no offense and is not to be feared. Marcion, of course, was condemned as a heretic by the Proto-orthodox Christian fathers.

I agree that there seems to be more than one Jesus in the Bible. This can easily be illustrated by the differences between the synoptic gospels and the Gospel of John. Many theologians and preachers have made careers of attempting to reconcile the various Jesuses characterized in the books of the New Testament. The apocalyptical Jesus of The Book of Revelation might himself be interpreted as genocidal on a global scale and hardly in a position to condemn Yahweh. The Jesus who gave the Sermon on the Mount of the Gospel of Matthew depicts a very different God one whose example of not judging and loving unconditionally we are challenged to follow.


True that Gnostic Christians rightly pegged Christianity as an immoral creed a long time ago.

As to following a policy of unconditional love, I would think that if it has value, then it has conditions.

I do not think unconditional love is really a thing because, for love to be true love, it takes two and an absentee god cannot love unconditionally if love needs works, deeds and reciprocity, and it does.

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:12 am

Greatest I am wrote:The correct moral judgement.

As to judging, I do not recall Jesus saying to not judge. That would go against what he likely taught from scriptures, if he lived at all that is.
What I said was that he didn't judge Yahweh, as far as we know. So we have his teachings which seem quite different form the OT deity, and we could judge Yahweh via them. But on the other hand we have his lack of judging Yahweh and that is also telling. He also seems to be keeping himself in the tradition. There's no 'I must break from this immoral tradition...'type stuff

This is what we have to go on while speculating about Jesus vs Yahweh.
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:49 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:The correct moral judgement.

As to judging, I do not recall Jesus saying to not judge. That would go against what he likely taught from scriptures, if he lived at all that is.
What I said was that he didn't judge Yahweh, as far as we know. So we have his teachings which seem quite different form the OT deity, and we could judge Yahweh via them. But on the other hand we have his lack of judging Yahweh and that is also telling. He also seems to be keeping himself in the tradition. There's no 'I must break from this immoral tradition...'type stuff

This is what we have to go on while speculating about Jesus vs Yahweh.


I read Jesus differently and see him preaching against religious tradition.

I E. When he said that the Sabbath was created for man and not man for the Sabbath. Man was to rule over god just as the Karaite Jews always did. I extrapolate from that that he would also say that gods are created for man and not man for gods.

I did not say that Jesus judged god. I am sasking you what you think Jesus' judgement of Yahweh would be.

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:48 pm

gods are created for man
What does that mean in a practical sense?
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:01 pm

phyllo wrote:
gods are created for man
What does that mean in a practical sense?


The seeking for god is the seeking of the best rules and laws to live life by. Note how Moses came back with laws and not some god.

That was how the ancients discussed theology, philosophy and ideologies, --- before the stupid literal reading of myths started.

A couple of quick links for you.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

This one shows how there in nothing wrong with creating gods and laws, as long as we do not let ourselves be subsumed by them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ1PDxeUynA

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:14 pm

The seeking for god is the seeking of the best rules and laws to live life by. Note how Moses came back with laws and not some god.
If you "create god" then you are also creating those rules and laws.

So why bother "creating god"? Just admit that you are creating rules and laws and leave god out of it completely.
A couple of quick links for you.
I told you before that I don't watch videos.
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:25 pm

phyllo wrote:
The seeking for god is the seeking of the best rules and laws to live life by. Note how Moses came back with laws and not some god.
If you "create god" then you are also creating those rules and laws.

So why bother "creating god"? Just admit that you are creating rules and laws and leave god out of it completely.
A couple of quick links for you.
I told you before that I don't watch videos.


Then best to ignore me as I do not have the time required to set down what I link to.

As to why I bother with god. For the same reason atheists are starting churches. I have a link for that as well but ---------

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:29 pm

Then best to ignore me as I do not have the time required to set down what I link to.

As to why I bother with god. For the same reason atheists are starting churches. I have a link for that as well but ---------
So you don't have the time to participate in a discussion forum, not even enough time to write out a few sentences to explain your position. :o

But you want me to spend 10 minutes watching your latest videos? And a total of 36 minutes if I watch everything that you posted in this thread.
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:13 pm

phyllo wrote:
Then best to ignore me as I do not have the time required to set down what I link to.

As to why I bother with god. For the same reason atheists are starting churches. I have a link for that as well but ---------
So you don't have the time to participate in a discussion forum, not even enough time to write out a few sentences to explain your position. :o

But you want me to spend 10 minutes watching your latest videos? And a total of 36 minutes if I watch everything that you posted in this thread.


Instead of 10 minutes of listening, I could have given you 20 minutes of reading.

Take the shortest or ignore it all.

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:15 pm

Instead of 10 minutes of listening, I could have given you 20 minutes of reading.
You don't know how fast I read.
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby omar » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:47 am

felix dakat wrote:This is a fascinating question which has perplexed people for nearly 20 centuries. In the second century, Marcion of Sinope taught that the teachings of Jesus were incompatible with the actions of Yahweh in Hebrew scriptures. Following Plato he called the Creator of the evil material world the "demiurge". Jesus Christ revealed a new God who was previously unknown to the world. This God was Supreme and above feelings of rivalry, anger and evil The Supreme God afflicts no punishment, takes no offense and is not to be feared. Marcion, of course, was condemned as a heretic by the Proto-orthodox Christian fathers.

I agree that there seems to be more than one Jesus in the Bible. This can easily be illustrated by the differences between the synoptic gospels and the Gospel of John. Many theologians and preachers have made careers of attempting to reconcile the various Jesuses characterized in the books of the New Testament. The apocalyptical Jesus of The Book of Revelation might himself be interpreted as genocidal on a global scale and hardly in a position to condemn Yahweh. The Jesus who gave the Sermon on the Mount of the Gospel of Matthew depicts a very different God one whose example of not judging and loving unconditionally we are challenged to follow.


I don't know Felix
I think that there is more than one "Felix", more than one "Omar" because we leave only impressions, not our essences in our personal encounters. Thus every writer encounters Jesus for the first time. The Gospels, separated by time, place and even language, HAD TO present different versions of Jesus. The only reason that there were agreements was due to the existence of a written account of all his deeds, which they fleshed out for their communities.
More importantly though is the existence of various Christianities, some which remain in the Biblical narratives.
The important thing is what about Heaven? Because if there is a Heaven/Hell realities, eternal (unlike the current life), then EVERYTHING that has and can happen takes on a different meaning. For example, the flood. If there is no life after death then it was the permanent extinguishing of millions. If there is an after life then there were millions added either to heaven of hell, given their proper judgment, thus just placement. A Judge is not regarded as a criminal.
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby barbarianhorde » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:15 pm

That's true. If you read different journalists to-day there appears we have seven different president Trumps.
It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed.
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby felix dakat » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:39 pm

Greatest I am wrote:True that Gnostic Christians rightly pegged Christianity as an immoral creed a long time ago.
You may be right. But first, why do you think Marcion was a gnostic? What is gnosticism? What is the immoral creed? Or shall we agree that these are digressions which will take us too far afield from the OP thesis?

Greatest I am wrote:As to following a policy of unconditional love, I would think that if it has value, then it has conditions. I do not think unconditional love is really a thing because, for love to be true love, it takes two and an absentee god cannot love unconditionally if love needs works, deeds and reciprocity, and it does.


Whether unconditional love is "true" or not, it's what Jesus is said to have taught in the Sermon on the Mount and contradicted in other places. And, I thought that the Jesus of the Bible, is what we were talking about.

However, I think there is plenty of evidence that unconditional love exists. Haven't you ever read about a mom who loves her axe-murderer son? Parents not infrequently can't stop loving their unworthy children and vice versa, children their unworthy parents. Love isn't rational in a narrow sense.
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