To Bypass Metaphysics

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To Bypass Metaphysics

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:35 am

The idea of god is real, it is even what defines mankind to a large extent.
Is God perhaps identical to the idea of God?
Is not the idea of God sufficient to drive on mankind and torment his mind to come up with brilliant thoughts and dig up "divine" powers?
the idea of god is at least the fuel int he engine, if not the very architecture of the engine somehow.
The notion of limitless power and infinite reason, surely a less inspiring idea could have produced lesser ambitions.

I do not mean that gods do not exist, but the God, the Center Creator - I think that this is best explained as the idea along which the universe now unfolds through mankind at this point, where science is stripped of its explanatory powers once the idea of God is abandoned. Science after all bears objective witness in to the unfolding of the mind that is experienced subjectively as religion. Science is conceived from the same place where religion is experienced - science is to religion like the son who refuses to keep silent. Its ways have no bearing on its truths, only its capacity to control is godly.
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Re: To Bypass Metaphysics

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:22 pm

The problem of science vs religion is possible only in minds that see creation as finished business. In creative evolution God is the Maker who is being made, the integral power within that which moves toward the fact of life. We are unaware of ends and beginnings-- We are a middle state where being is always becoming. Our power is within ourselves. The idea of God is possible only within the concepts we have about human evolution. It is not something outside of itself.
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Re: To Bypass Metaphysics

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:44 pm

"The idea of God is possible only within the concepts we have about human evolution."

This is a little confused. Perhaps too broad a stroke?

................

This constant becoming, being with no knowledge of beginnings or ends, is it not rather a self dellusion? A being scared of the begginings and ends one does in fact have knowledge of?

Dellusion is a human necessity. WHEN it is a human necessity. Otherwise it is cowardlyness.
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Re: To Bypass Metaphysics

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:44 pm

Ierrellus wrote:The problem of science vs religion is possible only in minds that see creation as finished business. In creative evolution God is the Maker who is being made, the integral power within that which moves toward the fact of life. We are unaware of ends and beginnings-- We are a middle state where being is always becoming. Our power is within ourselves. The idea of God is possible only within the concepts we have about human evolution. It is not something outside of itself.


The idea of God did exist before the idea of evolution. When Darwin came around the priests felt threatened, thought the idea of evolution negated God, and vice versa.

The idea of God is God, is all Im saying.
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Re: To Bypass Metaphysics

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:46 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:"The idea of God is possible only within the concepts we have about human evolution."

This is a little confused. Perhaps too broad a stroke?

................

This constant becoming, being with no knowledge of beginnings or ends, is it not rather a self dellusion? A being scared of the begginings and ends one does in fact have knowledge of?

Dellusion is a human necessity. WHEN it is a human necessity. Otherwise it is cowardlyness.


The Earth was once born, so was the Sun, and both will die.
The only thing of which I have been able to successfully argue to myself that it can never end is self-valuing logic. I think all the rest has a beginning and an end.
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Re: To Bypass Metaphysics

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:51 pm

For me it was Chaos, that which englobes everything, nothing, and anything else. Everything else. The possible and impossible. The things for which there are no words yet, anymore, or ever. Even the things that don't touch that which makes words, yet, any more, or ever.
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Re: To Bypass Metaphysics

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:33 pm

Yeah I knew that.

I don't disagree.

But my mind is such that I only came to understand Chaos satisfactorily through VO.

Hence why I dubbed VO Chaos Logic recently.
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Re: To Bypass Metaphysics

Postby Silhouette » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:22 pm

There are things that come before God and Science - primarily the ability to distinguish within an otherwise continuous stream of consciousness.

Life that acts in its own favour and acts to avoid its threats will outlast and replace that which doesn't, or that which does so to a lesser extent. (Dare I say: a self-valuing, no?)
This is either by chance without perception of the difference, or it is in response to discriminatory sensory information.

Then there is the ability to group together similar discrete experiences. These groups are what turn into "Gods". "The" God is all of the "good stuff" grouped together.

This is what an "idea" is: the mental grouping together of discrete experiences. Ideas can resemble reality or abstract elements of it that don't go together in reality as far as you know: imagination. In this way, God is merely representative of the ability to imagine - taken to a certain kind of extreme.

Science is just making something useful (predictive rather than merely descriptive) out of it.
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Re: To Bypass Metaphysics

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:13 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Yeah I knew that.

I don't disagree.

But my mind is such that I only came to understand Chaos satisfactorily through VO.

Hence why I dubbed VO Chaos Logic recently.


But surely you understand the contradiction of calling Chaos logic!

You can't even call it Ontology, because it englzzobes even more than ontology.

Theres this guy that calls it nothing instead. Which is silly, my hand is clearly not nothing, englobed by nothing in any way.
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Re: To Bypass Metaphysics

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:45 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Yeah I knew that.

I don't disagree.

But my mind is such that I only came to understand Chaos satisfactorily through VO.

Hence why I dubbed VO Chaos Logic recently.


But surely you understand the contradiction of calling Chaos logic!


Surely you know how much I smiled precisely because of this.
It is perfect.
I dare chaos to protest
and logic Ive already subdued I do with it what I want.
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Re: To Bypass Metaphysics

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:57 pm

The reason I took the names Chaos Logic and Axiomatic Chaos Theory to clarify VO some more is that the most direct result of self valuing logic is chaos.
There is an infinity of non-time of chaos between the logic and any order that may emerge to try and do some phenomenal self-valuing justice.

An instance of self-valuing logic is irreducible to anything but the logic, so in order to relate to another being it must do so not through that being but through the logic, disregarding the entirety of the actual situation. This causes perfect chaos, i.e. te inability for anything to be established. Only by pure chance can order arise, but when it unfolds and anchors itself fast, as there is no resistance to it on the part of chaos, only indifference.

Ultimately, since both logic and chaos exist the one can not categorically contradict the other.
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Re: To Bypass Metaphysics

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:07 pm

"A"="A" is useful precisely because it is always significantly false - this gives it its power to manipulate. The tension that holds the circle of mathematics is before this falsity, and this draws out conclusions - the brilliance of the falsity is in its power to beget.

What is true rather is "A"><"A", where both are greater than the same thing by the same order, but this one thing is Chaos. So no mirror, no equality before any objective arbiter; just a superficially coinciding appearance hiding all sorts of things, such as that perfect correspondence actually requires absolute irreconcilability, and more subtle clues.

Thats why I prefer detective work to mathematics.
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Re: To Bypass Metaphysics

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:30 pm

It's not... You know what? Fine.
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Re: To Bypass Metaphysics

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:40 am

I know.

But, cool.
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Re: To Bypass Metaphysics

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:19 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:"The idea of God is possible only within the concepts we have about human evolution."

This is a little confused. Perhaps too broad a stroke?

................

This constant becoming, being with no knowledge of beginnings or ends, is it not rather a self dellusion? A being scared of the begginings and ends one does in fact have knowledge of?

Dellusion is a human necessity. WHEN it is a human necessity. Otherwise it is cowardlyness.

Both physics and metaphysics owe their origins as ideas to the genetic and memetic evolution of humans. The idea of God evolved and will persist so long as it produces pragmatic results.
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Re: To Bypass Metaphysics

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:23 pm

Ierrellus wrote:. The idea of God [...] will persist so long as it produces pragmatic results.

Absolutely.

It is the idea of God which creates. This was largely my point.

Ideas aren't less real than horsepower. Metaphysics is just another engine.
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