Ramification in Causality is meaningless lie of the human

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Re: Ramification in Causality is meaningless lie of the huma

Postby Serendipper » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:19 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Serendipper wrote:
iambiguous wrote:Are there limitations here beyond which philosophers are unable to go?

Yes I think so because the objective is the observerless observation. All we can know is only in relation to something else.


Still, as soon as you try to grapple with the implications of this, you are so far out on the metaphysical limb that, for all practical purposes, it becomes meaningless. A universe that simply is what it is. And with absolutely no one or no thing around to know that?

Yes I think so. If there is something else, we could only see it through our subjective lens in relation only to what we already know.

Or is there in fact an argument available to all rational and ethical men and women such that they are obligated to embody it or to be seen as irrational and unethical human beings?


Serendipper wrote: If someone is obligated to embody something lest they be viewed as irrational, then you've defined objectivity in terms of popularity. Truth is merely consensus of opinion.


No, in a world where some measure of human autonomy does in fact exist, it still comes down to that which can be demonstratred to be true objectively for all of us. We just don't know the limits of that. We accept that this exchange exists for all with access to the internet. That can be reasonably demonstrated. But how is it demonstrated that my argument or your argument is closer to the objective truth?

There is no objective truth. I'm cold. Are you cold? Is everyone cold? No, it's subjective to be cold.

This exchange may exist for everyone, but everyone will see it differently, so it exists uniquely for every person. There is no objective way to discern this thread. I speak in a way I think you will understand and you read in regard to a way you think I speak.

Unless perhaps it can be demonstrated that, say, the exchange is just part of some Sim world in which you and I are merely characters in minds beyond our capacity to even grasp.

It could be. Where do your decisions come from?

Who is asking?
Me!
Who are you?
Me, over here, I'm running that guy.
Ok, then who are you?
Me, over here, I'm running that guy who is running that guy.
Ok, then who are you?
Me, over here, I'm the one in charge.
Ok, then who are you?
.
.
.

On and on forever. We can never get to the origins of our decisions because we cannot take an objective view of ourselves.

Serendipper wrote:Well, you're not even trying to convey the meaning of dasein. You're speaking in difficult to interpret vernacular and beating around the bush, then tossing me an old thread so I can rummage around and by chance possibly stumble upon the right definition. It's just not that important to me to know the definition of that word to put all this work into it especially when you won't reciprocate and put work into a succinct and clear definition to save me all this stabbing in the dark.


Since I construe dasein [out in the is/ought world] to be an existential contraption derived largely from lives/relationships that can differ in many, many extraordinary ways, it is best in my view to situate that which I construe it to mean "out in the world."

So dasein is the subjective view of the world?

Instead, you appear to want the "25 words or less" version. The meaning and the defintion of dasein.

Yes

Like dasein were an actual thing I could take out of my pocket and say, "here, this is dasein".

I can define things that can't be taken out of my pocket and displayed.

What I am interested in is how you and others react to the OP such that the points raised are either more in or more out of sync with your own "I" when confronted with conflicting goods.

Conflicting goods is a duality (either or) and is required to have existence.

There are clearly things about yourself "here and now" that are true objectively: your age,

No, it's a relationship. I lived this many revolutions of the earth around the sun. There is no objective time.

your gender, your race, your sexual orientation, your height, your weight...the place where you were born, the experiences you had, the relationships you sustained, the books you read, the films you viewed etc.

All these things exist as a relationship.

And let folks like Krishnamurti bring "general descriptions" of this sort down out of the clouds of abstraction and park them in particular contexts precipitating particular behaviors deemed to be either sick or healthy.

Assertion of things that do not exist, as objects of attainment, would seem to me sick

Serendipper wrote: The only thing we know for sure is there is nothing we know for sure.


Yes, but "here and now" there are still distinctions to be made [in the either/or world] between those relationships able to be demonstrated as true for all of us and individaul reactions to those relationships which appear [to me] to be considersably more subjective.

If something were true for all of us, what would it mean?

Serendipper wrote: I think the desire to delineate the world into dualities (right and wrong) is a way of manifesting the self. So clinging to objectivity is resisting death of the self. The only way to exist is to carve yourself out of obscurity and form clear distinctions between this and that. I am here and everything else is over there. When the lines get fuzzy, then you get fragmented. I think it's mighty perceptive of you to notice it.


Again, the problem I have with points like this is how abstract they are.

There is nothing that's not abstract except the one thing that can't be beheld because you cannot look at yourself. Everything that you think is a thing is carved out of something bigger (ie an abstraction).

Bring this assessment down to earth and note its relevance when confronting behaviors in conflict over value judgments.

Point us to a particular context that is embedded in your own life; or to one in which a great deal of news has been generated of late.

Religion, for example, is a way of manifesting oneself as a good person in relation to bad people. "I am special because I do the right thing... unlike those heathen over there." When the lines between the righteous and heathen gets blurry, then identity goes away (fragmented and fractured). If there is no good and bad, then you can't be a good person because the concept doesn't exist. All religion is arrogance and nothing can be more egotistical than true repentance.

So we practice the religion of no religion because we want to be better than those arrogant fools practicing religion, but then we find we're just as arrogant in our religion of no religion. What a trap! Freedom from the trap comes when you realize that you and the trap are the same thing, but then you lose all identity and realize that's no fun, so you'll renounce satori and go back in the game.

Good tune by Jim Croce called "Age":

I've traded love for pennies; sold my soul for less.
Lost my ideals in that long tunnel of time.
And I've turned inside out and 'round about and back and then
Found myself right back where I started again.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1LvlKvr3B4

Here and now is the only place to be because there isn't anywhere else to go, but you can try.

It's just that different individuals will draw the line here in different places. Is it true objectively that human life begins at conception?

When does conception begin?

Or do we become actual human beings further on down the line? How can this be determined once and for all?

I say further down, but what defines human? If we ask people what defines being human, they'll differentiate it with regard to machines (empathy, compassion, creativity, etc). So if we apply that yardstick, at what age does a person display those attributes? Some never do. So now what? If we say humans are animate, then how do we differentiate from animals?

And, once determined, how ought rational men and women configure their moral and political narratives in regard to abortion?

According to their own convictions I suppose. Matt Dillahunty had a good argument for abortion saying that if one human doesn't have the right to parasite himself off another human without permission, then why afford that right to humans who haven't been born? That seems pretty solid.

And how is that then not an "existential contraption" more or less?[/i]


Serendipper wrote: I don't know, but why does it matter? The concept of a contraption is a contraption because contraption is a synonym for concept.


It matters because the extent to which you come to recognize that your value judgments are derived more from a particular sequence of experiences than from any deontological assessment, is the extent to which you are less likely to embrace objectivism.

I don't see much difference. Even if reason and evidence were a foundation, we still must have faith in it. There is no distinction between the absolute and the relative because whatever truth you hold will be relative to that yardstick. You either appeal to deontology or popularity or whatever foundation in accordance with how you're put together and with regard to a particular sequence of experiences.

But really, if there were an objective morality, it would exist independent of humans, which makes no sense because how can morality exist without moral agents? Morality is emergent and not absolute.

Instead, you are more likely to embrace moderation, negotiation and compromise in your political interactions with others.

Then it's just a matter of whether or not you take this as far as "I" do. Tumbling all the way down into a hole like mine.

Anytime you find yourself in a trap that you can't escape, it means you and the trap are one. It's an infinite abyss of your own making.

Again, bringing this down to earth. Bob is on trial for murdering Bill. A mountain of evidence [including fingerprints and DNA] is able to convince a jury that he is guilty. They [or the judge] then sentence him to death. What then are the facts [using either deduction or induction] that is able to establish in turn that executing him is just or moral or "the right thing to do"?

What's your own argument here? And how do you see it as either embedded or not embedded in the components of my own moral philosophy. A philosophy that revolves around the assumption that both moral narratives and political agendas revolve around arguments that revolves around "existential contraptions".

In a No God world.


Serendipper wrote: Morality is veiled "might makes right". Rather than retype it, I'll refer you to my post to Karpel viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194190&start=100#p2711863


Well, it is certainly true that when push comes to shove what counts is the extent to which you are able to enforce "rules of behavior" more to your own liking. But that doesn't make your own "liking" here any less an existential contraption to me.

I'm just saying that morality exists only because people, by virtue of numbers (might), say so (makes right). Might makes right. There is no way to know objectively if the baby that was not aborted will not grow up to be the next Hitler or the baby that was aborted could have discovered the cure for cancer.... or even if a cure for cancer is good.

This is the parable of the chinese farmer



If we can't tell what is good or bad, then how can we have rules?

KT is hell bent on insisting that his own rendition of "pragmatism" is not an existential contraption. But I certainly see it as one. He lived a particular life predisposing him to a particular set of values; but he refuses to let the implications of that disturb him as much as they disturb me. In other words, "fracture and fragment" his own particular "I" when confronting conflicting goods.

I can't think of anything that isn't a contraption because I can only think in terms of contraptions. Bruce Lee said we learn to forget meaning we practice so hard for so long that our routine becomes a part of us and is no longer conscious, but an unconscious reflex. So it transcends contraptions (conceptual/cataphatic knowledge) and enters into the non-conceptual (agnosis/apophatic) knowledge. By induction I believe we must have learned to beat our hearts at some point in evolutionary time and now it's an unconscious reflex that requires no contraptions to operate. It doesn't mean I'm right, but we had to acquire that knowledge somehow.

And to speak of grasping these relationships "epistemologically" speaks volumes regarding the gap between us.

Still, I have to admit that there may well be an epistemological foundation allowing us to assess them wholly.

Or we can just argue that in a wholly determined universe this exchange itself is inherently embedded in the ontological [and teleological?] "fabric of reality".

Pretty much, because if it weren't so, there would be no reality. But no teleology because that would undermine the purpose of purposelessness.

As for your rendition of Vos Savant's rendition of the Monty Hall problem, what on earth does that have to do with the gap between what we think we know about the universe and all that would need to be known about it in order to encompass it objectively?

Would all astrophysicists weigh in on this in the precise manner in which you do?

1000 phds said she was wrong, so it's illustration that what most astrophysicists think has no relevance. What most people know, ain't worth knowing.

I think most astrophysicists (if they were fair and honest) would say to me "maybe you're right, but who knows" because nobody knows. There are dozens of inflation theories and then variable speed of light theories and multiverse theories and who knows what else.

...how are deductions pertaining to the either/or world the same or different from deductions pertaining to the is/ought world.


Serendipper wrote: There is no difference and the ought is either/or because ought is discerned through relativity. You ought to do that, else this will happen.


Still, you have to admit this point will be easier to understand if you take it out into the world that we live in and embed it in a context in which deductions are made regarding facts able to be established and then made regarding our reactions to those facts such that some insist they indicate we ought to behave one way while others insist they indicate we ought to behave in another way.

Is it odd that you're looking for an absolute and then always tell me to bring it down to earth and relate it to something? If it's absolute, it's not relational and if it's relational, then it's not absolute. Objectivity is impossible because there is no context for it and it can't be said in terms of anything. It can't be brought down to earth and is abstract by definition.
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Re: Ramification in Causality is meaningless lie of the huma

Postby iambiguous » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:05 pm

iambiguous wrote:Are there limitations here beyond which philosophers are unable to go?


Serendipper wrote: Yes I think so because the objective is the observerless observation. All we can know is only in relation to something else.


Still, as soon as you try to grapple with the implications of this, you are so far out on the metaphysical limb that, for all practical purposes, it becomes meaningless. A universe that simply is what it is. And with absolutely no one or no thing around to know that?


Serendipper wrote: Yes I think so. If there is something else, we could only see it through our subjective lens in relation only to what we already know.


What I always come back to here is that whatever else might exists, our subjective lenses either overlap such that it can be demonstrated to exist for all of us or it can't. But if there are no conscious minds able to convey what they think does exist, what does it mean to say that it exist at all?

Sure, some seem able to wrap their head around this. I'm not one of them.

This part:

...in a world where some measure of human autonomy does in fact exist, it still comes down to that which can be demonstratred to be true objectively for all of us. We just don't know the limits of that. We accept that this exchange exists for all with access to the internet. That can be reasonably demonstrated. But how is it demonstrated that my argument or your argument is closer to the objective truth?


Serendipper wrote: There is no objective truth. I'm cold. Are you cold? Is everyone cold? No, it's subjective to be cold.


But some claims here seem to come considerably closer to that which "for all practical purposes" are construed by those who are "for all practical purposes" deemed to be rational human beings.

Would you be/feel cold buck naked at the North Pole? As opposed to, say, is it moral or immoral to strip someone buck naked at the North Pole? We might all respond subjectively to both inquiries. But who is kidding whom as to that which comes closest to whatever the objective truth might possibly be in a universe in which no one seems able to convey ontologically or teleologically what existence itself means.

Serendipper wrote: This exchange may exist for everyone, but everyone will see it differently, so it exists uniquely for every person. There is no objective way to discern this thread. I speak in a way I think you will understand and you read in regard to a way you think I speak.


True, but the fact that it does exist for all of us [sans Sim worlds, demonic dreams, solipsism etc.] seems to be clearly more true objectively than the subjective assessments regarding which of us comes closest to explaining it's existence embedded in Existence itself.

It "could" be this, it "could" be that. The distinction I make here is between the either/or and the is/ought world. In explaining where our decisions come from, the former seems considerably more reliable regarding the extent to which these decisions can be demonstrated to be true for all of us.

Serendipper wrote: So dasein is the subjective view of the world?


For me, dasein -- being thrown into the world "here and now" rather than "there and then" -- is applicable more in the is/ought world. There are things about "who we are" that are true for everyone. But with regard to our moral and political values, "I" is seen by me to be considerably more an existential contraption.

Instead, you appear to want the "25 words or less" version. The meaning and the defintion of dasein.

Serendipper wrote: Yes


Well, in that case, I suggest you take it up with the epistemologists here. Then after you have reached a consensus, bring the argument out into the world of conflicting goods. Such that "dasein"/"Dasein" can be understood more clearly by all those who wish to be thought of as rational human beings.

Like dasein were an actual thing I could take out of my pocket and say, "here, this is dasein".

Serendipper wrote: I can define things that can't be taken out of my pocket and displayed.


Okay, define freedom or justice...or time or space.

There are clearly things about yourself "here and now" that are true objectively: your age,


Serendipper wrote: No, it's a relationship. I lived this many revolutions of the earth around the sun. There is no objective time.


Technically true. That is, if, ontologically, you can define and encompass the meaning of time going all the way back to its very begininng. Or demonstrate beyond all doubt that it had no beginning at all.

And then imagine how, for all practical purposes, others would react to you refusing to say "I am 20 years old". Instead you say "I am 7,300 revolutions around the Sun old."

And then this: what about leap years?

your gender, your race, your sexual orientation, your height, your weight...the place where you were born, the experiences you had, the relationships you sustained, the books you read, the films you viewed etc.


Serendipper wrote: All these things exist as a relationship.


Yes, but these things can at least be demonstrated to have happened. At least to the extent that you are able to do so. After all, even in the either/or world a God is needed to confirm the objective truth of everything.

And let folks like Krishnamurti bring "general descriptions" of this sort down out of the clouds of abstraction and park them in particular contexts precipitating particular behaviors deemed to be either sick or healthy.

Serendipper wrote: Assertion of things that do not exist, as objects of attainment, would seem to me sick


Exist or do not exist in what particular context regarding what particular things?

Serendipper wrote: The only thing we know for sure is there is nothing we know for sure.


Yes, but "here and now" there are still distinctions to be made [in the either/or world] between those relationships able to be demonstrated as true for all of us and individaul reactions to those relationships which appear [to me] to be considersably more subjective.


Serendipper wrote: If something were true for all of us, what would it mean?


What does it mean to say that it is true that the Sun exists for all of? As opposed to this: what does it mean to say that we should completely abandon the burning of fossil fuels and rely entirely on solar power?

Bingo: there are subjective points of view, and then there are subjective points of view.

Serendipper wrote: I think the desire to delineate the world into dualities (right and wrong) is a way of manifesting the self. So clinging to objectivity is resisting death of the self. The only way to exist is to carve yourself out of obscurity and form clear distinctions between this and that. I am here and everything else is over there. When the lines get fuzzy, then you get fragmented. I think it's mighty perceptive of you to notice it.


Again, the problem I have with points like this is how abstract they are.

Serendipper wrote: There is nothing that's not abstract except the one thing that can't be beheld because you cannot look at yourself. Everything that you think is a thing is carved out of something bigger (ie an abstraction).


More abstraction. Bring these assumptions down to earth. Note the actual existential implications of them pertaining to actual human interaction in conflict.

This part:

Point us to a particular context that is embedded in your own life; or to one in which a great deal of news has been generated of late.


Serendipper wrote: Religion, for example, is a way of manifesting oneself as a good person in relation to bad people. "I am special because I do the right thing... unlike those heathen over there." When the lines between the righteous and heathen gets blurry, then identity goes away (fragmented and fractured). If there is no good and bad, then you can't be a good person because the concept doesn't exist. All religion is arrogance and nothing can be more egotistical than true repentance.

So we practice the religion of no religion because we want to be better than those arrogant fools practicing religion, but then we find we're just as arrogant in our religion of no religion. What a trap! Freedom from the trap comes when you realize that you and the trap are the same thing, but then you lose all identity and realize that's no fun, so you'll renounce satori and go back in the game.


Again, as a "general description" of religion this seems reasonable enough. But how each of us come to embody "I" in either a God or a No God world, seems clearly to be embodied all the more in the manner in which I construe the existential meaning [if not the essential definition] of dasein, conflicting goods and political economy.

That brings a particular religious denomination down to earth. It situates it historically and culturally and experientially in a particular context in which claims are made. Claims that either can be demonstrated as true for all of us or claims that are predicated instead on religious assumptions that cannot.

It's just that different individuals will draw the line here in different places. Is it true objectively that human life begins at conception?


Serendipper wrote: When does conception begin?


Sure, you can take it back to that. Or can take that itself back to the very definition and meaning of Existence itself. Was there a conception involved then?

Will that ever show up on a youtube video?

Or do we become actual human beings further on down the line? How can this be determined once and for all?


Serendipper wrote: I say further down, but what defines human? If we ask people what defines being human, they'll differentiate it with regard to machines (empathy, compassion, creativity, etc). So if we apply that yardstick, at what age does a person display those attributes? Some never do. So now what? If we say humans are animate, then how do we differentiate from animals?


Yes, so then it all comes down to philosophers or scientists actually being able to define...to define...human life. Whose yardstick? Whose definition? And we are animals.

And, once determined, how ought rational men and women configure their moral and political narratives in regard to abortion?

Serendipper wrote: According to their own convictions I suppose.


And how are their convictions not embodied in the manner in which I construe the meaning of dasein here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529

That's what I do here. I offer others a chance to bring their own value judgments out into the world of conflicting goods that we live in today. To describe them such that they do not think of "I" here as being down in a hole.

Serendipper wrote: Matt Dillahunty had a good argument for abortion saying that if one human doesn't have the right to parasite himself off another human without permission, then why afford that right to humans who haven't been born? That seems pretty solid.


It's "solid" only given its initial assumptions. As though others who argue against abortion don't have their own initial set of assumptions.

Then it comes down to the extent to which someone is willing to admit that: I'm right from my side, your right from your side. Or insists instead that their own assumptions are predicated objectively on one or another God or political ideology or intellectual [deontological] contraption or assessment of "nature".

Serendipper wrote: Even if reason and evidence were a foundation, we still must have faith in it. There is no distinction between the absolute and the relative because whatever truth you hold will be relative to that yardstick. You either appeal to deontology or popularity or whatever foundation in accordance with how you're put together and with regard to a particular sequence of experiences.


Yes, only to the extent that one is able to grasp Existence itself, are they able to jettison the part about faith. But some yardsticks -- Donald Trump is president of the United States -- seem considerally more likely to measure the objective truth than others -- building Donald Trump's wall on the Mexican border is the right thing to do.

You either grasp this distinction as I do here or you don't.

Serendipper wrote: But really, if there were an objective morality, it would exist independent of humans, which makes no sense because how can morality exist without moral agents? Morality is emergent and not absolute.


What makes no sense to me is making an argument like this as though in making it it becomes true. And that is basically what you are doing here in my opinion. You have no capacity [that I know of] to substantiate this claim.

And all I ask is that you bring it down to earth and make an attempt to at least try. In particular, as it is relevant to answering the question, "how ought one to live"?

Instead, you are more likely to embrace moderation, negotiation and compromise in your political interactions with others.

Then it's just a matter of whether or not you take this as far as "I" do. Tumbling all the way down into a hole like mine.


Serendipper wrote: Anytime you find yourself in a trap that you can't escape, it means you and the trap are one. It's an infinite abyss of your own making.


Again, what on earth does that mean? How are you not trapped in your own arguments [assumptions] about human interactions in conflict over values out of sync?

What do you do but, in regard to a conflict like abortion, take a particular political leap to the political leap of someone like Matt Dillahunty.

Assuming this and that, abortion is the right or the wrong thing to do. Assuming that your "I" is not down in the hole with my "I".

As for the Chinese farmer? Maybe.

But the bottom line is always that one way or another the consequences of what we do or of what happens to us gets entangled in good or bad in a particular context out in a particular world construed from a particular point of view.

What is contrued to be good fortune when the farmer's son is exempt from military service may be construed later as bad fortune when the enemy wins the war and confiscates the farm. You can take this sort of thing back as far as you are able.

But "for all practical purposes" there must be rules of behavior in any particular human community such that some behaviors are chosen to be rewarded and others chosen to be punished. Why these and not those?

And how close to my own understanding of this [given the components of my moral philosophy] is reasonable?

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But I always start from there. As opposed to the objectivists who start with the assumption that you are either "one of us" or you are wrong.

Still, you have to admit this point will be easier to understand if you take it out into the world that we live in and embed it in a context in which deductions are made regarding facts able to be established and then made regarding our reactions to those facts such that some insist they indicate we ought to behave one way while others insist they indicate we ought to behave in another way.


Serendipper wrote: Is it odd that you're looking for an absolute and then always tell me to bring it down to earth and relate it to something?


I'm not looking for an absolute so much as a frame of mind able to yank me up out of the hole that [intellectually and existentially] I have dug for myself. There seem to be facts about human interactions that we can all agree on. But we react to those facts differently in terms of what we think they tell us about right and wrong behaviors.

And that becomes more and more apparent [to me] when we discuss our specific reactions to specific behaviors out in particular contexts. "I" for me here is constrained by the facts. The facts don't go away just because you think something else is true.

And then the part where the facts are acknowledged by everyone [John eats meat] but our reaction to the facts vary considerably [John ought to or ought not to eat meat].

Serendipper wrote: If it's absolute, it's not relational and if it's relational, then it's not absolute. Objectivity is impossible because there is no context for it and it can't be said in terms of anything. It can't be brought down to earth and is abstract by definition.


With respect to existence itself, gravity is related to electromagnetism is related to the strong and the weak interactions. This part: https://science.howstuffworks.com/envir ... nature.htm

Now, can we call these relationships truly absolute? Or, instead, are they related to forces we are not even privy to yet? Even going back perhaps to the existence of God?

To speak of "objectivity" here being either possible or impossible seems presumptive in the extreme to me.

You can't possibly know what that means. Unless, perhaps, you do. And if you do, you should take any substantive evidence you have collected and communicate it to the scientific community at large and see how they react to it.

But I suspect that if any particular one of us had actually nailed all this stuff down, he or she would be on the cover of every magazine out there.

"Existence itself finally explained!!"
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Ramification in Causality is meaningless lie of the huma

Postby Serendipper » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:59 pm

iambiguous wrote:
iambiguous wrote:Are there limitations here beyond which philosophers are unable to go?


Serendipper wrote: Yes I think so because the objective is the observerless observation. All we can know is only in relation to something else.


Still, as soon as you try to grapple with the implications of this, you are so far out on the metaphysical limb that, for all practical purposes, it becomes meaningless. A universe that simply is what it is. And with absolutely no one or no thing around to know that?


Serendipper wrote: Yes I think so. If there is something else, we could only see it through our subjective lens in relation only to what we already know.


What I always come back to here is that whatever else might exists, our subjective lenses either overlap such that it can be demonstrated to exist for all of us or it can't. But if there are no conscious minds able to convey what they think does exist, what does it mean to say that it exist at all?

Sure, some seem able to wrap their head around this. I'm not one of them.


Think of it this way: If all bodies in the universe are moving, how can we know? We can only know ALL bodies are moving if there is one body that isn't.

So there are two takeaways: 1) We cannot make logical conclusions about ALL things (because there is no reference point). 2) In order for movement to exist, there must be something that is still and so existence itself is a relationship (ie movement exists in relation to what isn't moving).

So when you ask what can be demonstrated to ALL rational people, you've already left the realm of logic since it's not possible to make logical conclusions about ALL things unless we make an exception that at least one thing is different.

Let's say it's objectively true that all things are ruled by God. How do we verify that? We can only verify all things are ruled by God if there is at least one thing that isn't.

Let's say all things exist inside the mind. How do we verify that? What difference does it make to anything in the mind that it's in the mind? What difference does it make to things ruled by God that they're ruled by God? It's impossible to tell because there is nothing that is not ruled by God to compare it to. There is nothing that is not in the mind to compare it to. There is nothing that is not moving to compare it to. Objective statements are meaningless.

...in a world where some measure of human autonomy does in fact exist, it still comes down to that which can be demonstratred to be true objectively for all of us. We just don't know the limits of that. We accept that this exchange exists for all with access to the internet. That can be reasonably demonstrated. But how is it demonstrated that my argument or your argument is closer to the objective truth?


Serendipper wrote: There is no objective truth. I'm cold. Are you cold? Is everyone cold? No, it's subjective to be cold.


But some claims here seem to come considerably closer to that which "for all practical purposes" are construed by those who are "for all practical purposes" deemed to be rational human beings.

Would you be/feel cold buck naked at the North Pole?

This reminds me of the time I had taken some lsd and became scared that I might freeze to death in -10F temps precisely because I could not feel the cold... or it didn't feel cold to me. I wasn't numb, but cold didn't register as painful and I had no way to tell if I was in biological peril or not.

As opposed to, say, is it moral or immoral to strip someone buck naked at the North Pole?

It boils down to what is good for you. If you and I were at the north pole and reliant upon each other for survival and you stripped me naked to freeze in the cold, then you'd be hurting yourself. You would have to act in ways that are consistent with what is commonly called "moral" in order to benefit yourself. To say those actions are moral is pedestalizing morality into something objectively true and then by showing reverence to it is a manifestation of arrogance because now you're not doing something for your own benefit, but flattering yourself for following objective rules with the insinuation that someone else is not and that is how we get to people being burned at the stake and all sorts of righteous wars.

We might all respond subjectively to both inquiries. But who is kidding whom as to that which comes closest to whatever the objective truth might possibly be in a universe in which no one seems able to convey ontologically or teleologically what existence itself means.

It doesn't mean anything. Whatever happens in this universe cannot be remembered after the universe is gone. It's all just dust in the wind and we pretend it's not.

Serendipper wrote: This exchange may exist for everyone, but everyone will see it differently, so it exists uniquely for every person. There is no objective way to discern this thread. I speak in a way I think you will understand and you read in regard to a way you think I speak.


True, but the fact that it does exist for all of us [sans Sim worlds, demonic dreams, solipsism etc.] seems to be clearly more true objectively than the subjective assessments regarding which of us comes closest to explaining it's existence embedded in Existence itself.



It "could" be this, it "could" be that. The distinction I make here is between the either/or and the is/ought world. In explaining where our decisions come from, the former seems considerably more reliable regarding the extent to which these decisions can be demonstrated to be true for all of us.

Wherever our decisions come from is the same for all of us because we're all connected to the same spacetime fabric, but that fundamental thing can never be an object of knowledge because there is no one outside who can take an objective view.

Like dasein were an actual thing I could take out of my pocket and say, "here, this is dasein".

Serendipper wrote: I can define things that can't be taken out of my pocket and displayed.


Okay, define freedom or justice...or time or space.

Freedom is a relative term requiring an object to be free from. We can't be simultaneously free from law and crime because we're either free from crime because we're bound to law or we're subject to crime upon being freed from law. Being a slave is a good way to be free from worry, but to stand on one's own and truly be free requires lots of strife and aggravation.

Justice is retribution according to some arbitrary moral code.

Time is a relation of the movement of one thing compared to another within space.

Space is the condition resulting from a delay in the transmission of information.

Time and space cannot be separated because if there were no time, then all travel would be instant and therefore there would be no space.

There are clearly things about yourself "here and now" that are true objectively: your age,


Serendipper wrote: No, it's a relationship. I lived this many revolutions of the earth around the sun. There is no objective time.


Technically true. That is, if, ontologically, you can define and encompass the meaning of time going all the way back to its very begininng. Or demonstrate beyond all doubt that it had no beginning at all.

I think from the point of view inside spacetime (as a function of it), then time had no beginning, but from a point of view outside spacetime (if that were possible), then time would have a beginning (whatever that means outside of time). It's analogous to someone going into a black hole: from his point of view, he'd go right in, but from the point of view of someone outside, he'd take forever to make it past the event horizon.

And then imagine how, for all practical purposes, others would react to you refusing to say "I am 20 years old". Instead you say "I am 7,300 revolutions around the Sun old."

The natives used to talk in terms of "moons": many moons ago.

And then this: what about leap years?

That wouldn't apply when using revolutions around the sun. Leap years only come because we make a year a tidy number of days (instead of 365.25 days) since we can't have a 1/4 day.

your gender, your race, your sexual orientation, your height, your weight...the place where you were born, the experiences you had, the relationships you sustained, the books you read, the films you viewed etc.


Serendipper wrote: All these things exist as a relationship.


Yes, but these things can at least be demonstrated to have happened. At least to the extent that you are able to do so. After all, even in the either/or world a God is needed to confirm the objective truth of everything.

If God confirms it, then it isn't objective, but subjective according to the subjective lens of God.

And let folks like Krishnamurti bring "general descriptions" of this sort down out of the clouds of abstraction and park them in particular contexts precipitating particular behaviors deemed to be either sick or healthy.

Serendipper wrote: Assertion of things that do not exist, as objects of attainment, would seem to me sick


Exist or do not exist in what particular context regarding what particular things?

Krishnamurti said "We are talking about something entirely different: you are talking about self-improvement while I am talking about elimination of the self."

Serendipper wrote: The only thing we know for sure is there is nothing we know for sure.


Yes, but "here and now" there are still distinctions to be made [in the either/or world] between those relationships able to be demonstrated as true for all of us and individaul reactions to those relationships which appear [to me] to be considersably more subjective.


Serendipper wrote: If something were true for all of us, what would it mean?


What does it mean to say that it is true that the Sun exists for all of? As opposed to this: what does it mean to say that we should completely abandon the burning of fossil fuels and rely entirely on solar power?

Bingo: there are subjective points of view, and then there are subjective points of view.

The sun exists to everyone that exists to the sun in a transactional and codependent relationship. The sun isn't an objective thing. Solar power is free energy and seems the sensible thing to pursue. I'm not sure what you're trying to show with this.

Serendipper wrote: I think the desire to delineate the world into dualities (right and wrong) is a way of manifesting the self. So clinging to objectivity is resisting death of the self. The only way to exist is to carve yourself out of obscurity and form clear distinctions between this and that. I am here and everything else is over there. When the lines get fuzzy, then you get fragmented. I think it's mighty perceptive of you to notice it.


Again, the problem I have with points like this is how abstract they are.

Serendipper wrote: There is nothing that's not abstract except the one thing that can't be beheld because you cannot look at yourself. Everything that you think is a thing is carved out of something bigger (ie an abstraction).


More abstraction. Bring these assumptions down to earth. Note the actual existential implications of them pertaining to actual human interaction in conflict.

I don't know how.

You want action A
I want action B
Who wins?

Metaphors reign where mysteries reside. There is no way to bring it down to earth and even if I could, it would simply create something else that needed to be brought down to earth.

Point us to a particular context that is embedded in your own life; or to one in which a great deal of news has been generated of late.


Serendipper wrote: Religion, for example, is a way of manifesting oneself as a good person in relation to bad people. "I am special because I do the right thing... unlike those heathen over there." When the lines between the righteous and heathen gets blurry, then identity goes away (fragmented and fractured). If there is no good and bad, then you can't be a good person because the concept doesn't exist. All religion is arrogance and nothing can be more egotistical than true repentance.

So we practice the religion of no religion because we want to be better than those arrogant fools practicing religion, but then we find we're just as arrogant in our religion of no religion. What a trap! Freedom from the trap comes when you realize that you and the trap are the same thing, but then you lose all identity and realize that's no fun, so you'll renounce satori and go back in the game.


Again, as a "general description" of religion this seems reasonable enough. But how each of us come to embody "I" in either a God or a No God world, seems clearly to be embodied all the more in the manner in which I construe the existential meaning [if not the essential definition] of dasein, conflicting goods and political economy.

That brings a particular religious denomination down to earth. It situates it historically and culturally and experientially in a particular context in which claims are made. Claims that either can be demonstrated as true for all of us or claims that are predicated instead on religious assumptions that cannot.

We come to embody "I" because we're trained to.

In a 1927 letter to Sigmund Freud, Romain Rolland coined the phrase "oceanic feeling" to refer to the sensation of being one with the universe.[1] According to Rolland, this feeling is the source of all the religious energy that permeates in various religious systems, and one may justifiably call oneself religious on the basis of this oceanic feeling alone, even if one renounces every belief and every illusion.[2] Freud discusses the feeling in his Future of an Illusion (1927) and Civilization and Its Discontents (1929). There he deems it a fragmentary vestige of a kind of consciousness possessed by an infant who has not yet differentiated himself or herself from other people and things.[3]

Freud argues that the "oceanic feeling", if it exists, is the preserved "primitive ego-feeling" from infancy. The primitive ego-feeling precedes the creation of the ego and exists up until the mother ceases breastfeeding. Prior to this, the infant is regularly breastfed in response to its crying and has no concept that the breast does not belong to it. Therefore, the infant has no concept of a "self" or, rather, considers the breast to be part of itself. Freud argues that those experiencing an oceanic feeling as an adult are actually experiencing a preserved primitive ego-feeling. The ego, in contrast, comes into existence when the breast is taken away, and involves the infant's recognition that it is separate from the mother's breast, and therefore, that other people exist. Freud argues that it would not necessarily contradict psychoanalytical theory for this primary ego-feeling to coexist along with the ego in some people. The main argument for this is that psychoanalytical theory holds that all thoughts are preserved in a conservation of psychic energy. Therefore, the "oceanic feeling" described as a oneness with the world or a limitlessness is simply a description of the feeling the infant has before it learns there are other persons in the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanic_feeling

It's just that different individuals will draw the line here in different places. Is it true objectively that human life begins at conception?


Serendipper wrote: When does conception begin?


Sure, you can take it back to that. Or can take that itself back to the very definition and meaning of Existence itself. Was there a conception involved then?

Will that ever show up on a youtube video?

Or do we become actual human beings further on down the line? How can this be determined once and for all?


Serendipper wrote: I say further down, but what defines human? If we ask people what defines being human, they'll differentiate it with regard to machines (empathy, compassion, creativity, etc). So if we apply that yardstick, at what age does a person display those attributes? Some never do. So now what? If we say humans are animate, then how do we differentiate from animals?


Yes, so then it all comes down to philosophers or scientists actually being able to define...to define...human life. Whose yardstick? Whose definition? And we are animals.

When things began is an abstraction (a cutout from the whole continuum and artificially labelled a thing). There are no things or events except the one thing and the one event.

And, once determined, how ought rational men and women configure their moral and political narratives in regard to abortion?

Serendipper wrote: According to their own convictions I suppose.


And how are their convictions not embodied in the manner in which I construe the meaning of dasein here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529

That's what I do here. I offer others a chance to bring their own value judgments out into the world of conflicting goods that we live in today. To describe them such that they do not think of "I" here as being down in a hole.

I'm more than happy to play along, but it takes a good deal of energy to figure out what you're meaning with these obscure terms like dasein, conflicting goods, here and now. Talking to you is expensive in terms of blood glucose lol

Serendipper wrote: Matt Dillahunty had a good argument for abortion saying that if one human doesn't have the right to parasite himself off another human without permission, then why afford that right to humans who haven't been born? That seems pretty solid.


It's "solid" only given its initial assumptions. As though others who argue against abortion don't have their own initial set of assumptions.

Then it comes down to the extent to which someone is willing to admit that: I'm right from my side, your right from your side. Or insists instead that their own assumptions are predicated objectively on one or another God or political ideology or intellectual [deontological] contraption or assessment of "nature".

The only way to refute his argument would be to explain how you're different from a fetus such that a fetus has the right to parasite itself off someone else but other humans do not.

Well, maybe the fetus has extra rights because it's innocent, but isn't that true of babies in general? So then even babies should have the right to parasite from other humans. At what age does that right terminate? Do we pull the plug after that age? And what about animals? They're innocent too! So we should have animals attached by tubes to people to keep them alive? Is any human fair game or only the mother? Can we snatch people from walmart parking lots and harvest their organs for innocent babies so they can grow up to be sinners and have their organs reclaimed for more babies? All this is silly. It's much easier to say the rigths of a fetus do not supersede the rights of anyone else.

Serendipper wrote: Even if reason and evidence were a foundation, we still must have faith in it. There is no distinction between the absolute and the relative because whatever truth you hold will be relative to that yardstick. You either appeal to deontology or popularity or whatever foundation in accordance with how you're put together and with regard to a particular sequence of experiences.


Yes, only to the extent that one is able to grasp Existence itself, are they able to jettison the part about faith. But some yardsticks -- Donald Trump is president of the United States -- seem considerally more likely to measure the objective truth than others -- building Donald Trump's wall on the Mexican border is the right thing to do.

You either grasp this distinction as I do here or you don't.

Is it objectively true that the bishop moves diagonally in chess? What happens if someone changes the rule? Nothing happens because it's not objective, but relational. Some people don't consider Trump to be president.

Serendipper wrote: But really, if there were an objective morality, it would exist independent of humans, which makes no sense because how can morality exist without moral agents? Morality is emergent and not absolute.


What makes no sense to me is making an argument like this as though in making it it becomes true. And that is basically what you are doing here in my opinion. You have no capacity [that I know of] to substantiate this claim.

And all I ask is that you bring it down to earth and make an attempt to at least try. In particular, as it is relevant to answering the question, "how ought one to live"?

What is objectively true would be true regardless of opinions, so if it were wrong to murder, then it wouldn't be possible to murder. Since it is possible, then its not objectively wrong. Objectivity exists independent of ANY observer.

Instead, you are more likely to embrace moderation, negotiation and compromise in your political interactions with others.

Then it's just a matter of whether or not you take this as far as "I" do. Tumbling all the way down into a hole like mine.


Serendipper wrote: Anytime you find yourself in a trap that you can't escape, it means you and the trap are one. It's an infinite abyss of your own making.


Again, what on earth does that mean? How are you not trapped in your own arguments [assumptions] about human interactions in conflict over values out of sync?

What do you do but, in regard to a conflict like abortion, take a particular political leap to the political leap of someone like Matt Dillahunty.

Assuming this and that, abortion is the right or the wrong thing to do. Assuming that your "I" is not down in the hole with my "I".

I'm starting to think you want to be in the hole and are fending off all attempts to pull you out because that's where you want to be. That's fine because I sometimes think I like being in a depressed and gloomy state: as long as things are bad, then I know everything is ok :lol:

As for the Chinese farmer? Maybe.

But the bottom line is always that one way or another the consequences of what we do or of what happens to us gets entangled in good or bad in a particular context out in a particular world construed from a particular point of view.

What is contrued to be good fortune when the farmer's son is exempt from military service may be construed later as bad fortune when the enemy wins the war and confiscates the farm. You can take this sort of thing back as far as you are able.

Right, there is no way to tell what is good or bad.

But "for all practical purposes" there must be rules of behavior in any particular human community such that some behaviors are chosen to be rewarded and others chosen to be punished. Why these and not those?

It's completely arbitrary. Deer wouldn't have long legs if predators couldn't run fast. The societal organism will adapt to whatever rules are imposed and it honestly doesn't care. The whole race can go extinct and it makes no difference because life could re-evolve billions of years from now or possibly in another universe in an amount of "time" impossible to quantify and no alternative carries any more appeal than any other.

Further, the moment you impose rules, the organism will evolve ways around them. It goes immediately to work in response to your change no differently than antibiotics train bacteria to be resistant, so the implementation of rules is an exercise in chasing your tail in a cat n mouse game where having a better cat just results in more clever mice.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But I always start from there. As opposed to the objectivists who start with the assumption that you are either "one of us" or you are wrong.

I call them dogmatists.

Still, you have to admit this point will be easier to understand if you take it out into the world that we live in and embed it in a context in which deductions are made regarding facts able to be established and then made regarding our reactions to those facts such that some insist they indicate we ought to behave one way while others insist they indicate we ought to behave in another way.


Serendipper wrote: Is it odd that you're looking for an absolute and then always tell me to bring it down to earth and relate it to something?


I'm not looking for an absolute so much as a frame of mind able to yank me up out of the hole that [intellectually and existentially] I have dug for myself. There seem to be facts about human interactions that we can all agree on. But we react to those facts differently in terms of what we think they tell us about right and wrong behaviors.

And that becomes more and more apparent [to me] when we discuss our specific reactions to specific behaviors out in particular contexts. "I" for me here is constrained by the facts. The facts don't go away just because you think something else is true.

And then the part where the facts are acknowledged by everyone [John eats meat] but our reaction to the facts vary considerably [John ought to or ought not to eat meat].

Ought only exists in relation to a goal. If you want ________, then you ought to do _____________. If you don't want anything, then there is no ought.

Serendipper wrote: If it's absolute, it's not relational and if it's relational, then it's not absolute. Objectivity is impossible because there is no context for it and it can't be said in terms of anything. It can't be brought down to earth and is abstract by definition.


With respect to existence itself, gravity is related to electromagnetism is related to the strong and the weak interactions. This part: https://science.howstuffworks.com/envir ... nature.htm

Now, can we call these relationships truly absolute? Or, instead, are they related to forces we are not even privy to yet? Even going back perhaps to the existence of God?

They are related to duality. Where did duality come from? Well, duality come from unity: the coin has heads and tails because it's one coin.

To speak of "objectivity" here being either possible or impossible seems presumptive in the extreme to me.

Objectivity cannot exist unless it is observed and if it is observed, then it's no longer objectivity, but subjectivity because it could only be observed through a subjective lens given by how the subject relates to the object.

For example, let's say another universe exists, but we are unable to detect it in any way whatsoever. That universe would be objective because it's not part of a subject/object relationship and yet it exists; it's just sitting there all alone in the middle of nothingness. But because we have no way of detecting that universe, we can't say that universe exists. And if we could detect that universe, then it would not be a universe, but simply part of our own.

You can't possibly know what that means. Unless, perhaps, you do. And if you do, you should take any substantive evidence you have collected and communicate it to the scientific community at large and see how they react to it.

They wouldn't see it as fashionable.

But I suspect that if any particular one of us had actually nailed all this stuff down, he or she would be on the cover of every magazine out there.

"Existence itself finally explained!!"

This knowledge is 1000s of years old and went out of fashion long ago.
Serendipper
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Re: Ramification in Causality is meaningless lie of the huma

Postby iambiguous » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:14 pm

Serendipper wrote:
iambiguous wrote:What I always come back to here is that whatever else might exists, our subjective lenses either overlap such that it can be demonstrated to exist for all of us or it can't. But if there are no conscious minds able to convey what they think does exist, what does it mean to say that it exist at all?

Sure, some seem able to wrap their head around this. I'm not one of them.


Think of it this way: If all bodies in the universe are moving, how can we know? We can only know ALL bodies are moving if there is one body that isn't.

So there are two takeaways: 1) We cannot make logical conclusions about ALL things (because there is no reference point). 2) In order for movement to exist, there must be something that is still and so existence itself is a relationship (ie movement exists in relation to what isn't moving).

So when you ask what can be demonstrated to ALL rational people, you've already left the realm of logic since it's not possible to make logical conclusions about ALL things unless we make an exception that at least one thing is different.


But in a universe where there are zero, zip and absolutely nada conscious entities around to discuss and debate this, what possible difference could it make whether there are entities that don't move?

Given a complete understanding of how and why existence does in fact exist at all, there is [presumably] an objective truth. There are bodies that are still or there are not. But with no mortal minds on earth, no extrateresstrial minds or no Gods around to know this, what exactly does that mean?

The squabble over white swans and black swans would have been entirely moot with no minds around to create a narrative in which to discuss and to debate it.

Serendipper wrote: Let's say all things exist inside the mind. How do we verify that? What difference does it make to anything in the mind that it's in the mind? What difference does it make to things ruled by God that they're ruled by God? It's impossible to tell because there is nothing that is not ruled by God to compare it to. There is nothing that is not in the mind to compare it to. There is nothing that is not moving to compare it to. Objective statements are meaningless.


But if there are no minds around to even ponder the question, it all comes down to the relationship between an existing God and all that encompasses existence.

But: There are no philosophers around to even bring up anything relating to this. The subjective/objective debate exists only because there are minds able to broach it in the first place. No minds no meaning.

Then the part where the meaning that any particualr mind attributes to "I" may well be entirely determined by the laws of nature.

...in a world where some measure of human autonomy does in fact exist, it still comes down to that which can be demonstratred to be true objectively for all of us. We just don't know the limits of that. We accept that this exchange exists for all with access to the internet. That can be reasonably demonstrated. But how is it demonstrated that my argument or your argument is closer to the objective truth?


Serendipper wrote: There is no objective truth. I'm cold. Are you cold? Is everyone cold? No, it's subjective to be cold.


But some claims here seem to come considerably closer to that which "for all practical purposes" are construed by those who are "for all practical purposes" deemed to be rational human beings.

Would you be/feel cold buck naked at the North Pole?

Serendipper wrote: This reminds me of the time I had taken some lsd and became scared that I might freeze to death in -10F temps precisely because I could not feel the cold... or it didn't feel cold to me. I wasn't numb, but cold didn't register as painful and I had no way to tell if I was in biological peril or not.


But all of this is unfolding in a particular mind that either will or will nor perish in any particular context. Cold is perceived subjectively but there are certain biological parameters in which the capacity to perceive it is either sustained or not.

As opposed to, say, is it moral or immoral to strip someone buck naked at the North Pole?


Serendipper wrote: It boils down to what is good for you. If you and I were at the north pole and reliant upon each other for survival and you stripped me naked to freeze in the cold, then you'd be hurting yourself.


Not if killing you allowed me to consume you in order to sustain my own existence. In other words, in a context in which a rescue team was on the way and it was only a matter of surviving long enough for it to reach me. Good and bad here are points of view. And these are clearly more subjective than the objective parameters embedded in the either/or world of cold and human biology. And how this then factors into living or dying.

We might all respond subjectively to both inquiries. But who is kidding whom as to that which comes closest to whatever the objective truth might possibly be in a universe in which no one seems able to convey ontologically or teleologically what existence itself means.


Serendipper wrote: It doesn't mean anything. Whatever happens in this universe cannot be remembered after the universe is gone. It's all just dust in the wind and we pretend it's not.


What always boggles my mind here is how folks manage to think themselves into believing things like this are true with no capacity to actually demonstrate empirically that it is true for all rational human beings. Instead, it is true for them "in their heads" based on a set of assumptions they make about the existence of existence itself.

Serendipper wrote: Wherever our decisions come from is the same for all of us because we're all connected to the same spacetime fabric, but that fundamental thing can never be an object of knowledge because there is no one outside who can take an objective view.


This is more of the same to me. You assert something to be true based only on an intellectual contraption that you have concocted to explain 1] why something exists rather than nothing and 2] why this something and not something else.

Serendipper wrote: I can define things that can't be taken out of my pocket and displayed.


Okay, define freedom or justice...or time or space.


Serendipper wrote: Freedom is a relative term requiring an object to be free from. We can't be simultaneously free from law and crime because we're either free from crime because we're bound to law or we're subject to crime upon being freed from law. Being a slave is a good way to be free from worry, but to stand on one's own and truly be free requires lots of strife and aggravation.


Okay, but when you take this assumption out into the world of actual conflicting goods, how is it determined what the meaning of freedom is when John demands the freedom to own guns and Joe demands the feedom to live in a world without them?

And how is it demonstrated that either point of view is not just a manifestation of a wholly determined universe?

And how do we connect the dots between any particular answers that any particular one of us might give and an ontological definition and meaning of existence itself? And then to demonstrate the extent to which there is also a teleological component here?

Serendipper wrote: Justice is retribution according to some arbitrary moral code.


Any particular moral code is embedded first and foremost in prescribing and proscribing rules of behavior that revolve around sustaining human life itself. Capitalism? Socialism? Fascism? Anarchism? Survival of the fittest? One or another rendition of Plato's Republic?

Justice would seem to be largely ensconced in specific historical, cultural and interpersonal contexts re any actual community of men and women.

Serendipper wrote: Time is a relation of the movement of one thing compared to another within space.

Space is the condition resulting from a delay in the transmission of information.

Time and space cannot be separated because if there were no time, then all travel would be instant and therefore there would be no space.


Again, as though you actually do have access to an understanding of time and space going all the way back to whatever brought them into existence in the first place.

Instead, you think this:

Serendipper wrote: I think from the point of view inside spacetime (as a function of it), then time had no beginning, but from a point of view outside spacetime (if that were possible), then time would have a beginning (whatever that means outside of time). It's analogous to someone going into a black hole: from his point of view, he'd go right in, but from the point of view of someone outside, he'd take forever to make it past the event horizon.


But how could thoughts of this sort not be predicated on certain sets of assumptions that may or may not be shared by others? Who is the one able to settle it once and for?

Black holes as they are understood now, and black holes as they will be understood 10,000 years from now. Can we even begin to grasp the intelligence gap here?

Or this:

Serendipper wrote: If God confirms it, then it isn't objective, but subjective according to the subjective lens of God.


Yes, it is always fascinating to speculate about these things. But to speak of them as though you can actually know what is in fact true here? Well, that is something I no longer imagine as within my own reach. Or within the reach of any mere mortal grappling to understand All There Is as an infinitesimally tiny speck of existence in what may well be a multiverse.

Or this:

Serendipper wrote: Krishnamurti said "We are talking about something entirely different: you are talking about self-improvement while I am talking about elimination of the self."


Again, with respect to a particular human being interacting with other human beings in a particular context out in a particular world what of earth does that mean?!

How does "I" go about elimating his or her self? At best they can isolate themselves completely from all other conscious beings and commune with nature or with God. But their body will always be demanding food and water and shelter and protection. That part of "I" is either sustained or it perishes by tumbling over into an abyss that may or may not be oblivion.

What does it mean to say that it is true that the Sun exists for all of? As opposed to this: what does it mean to say that we should completely abandon the burning of fossil fuels and rely entirely on solar power?

Bingo: there are subjective points of view, and then there are subjective points of view.


Serendipper wrote: The sun exists to everyone that exists to the sun in a transactional and codependent relationship. The sun isn't an objective thing. Solar power is free energy and seems the sensible thing to pursue. I'm not sure what you're trying to show with this.


I'm making a clear distinction between the extent to which human beings can in fact know that the sun is as close as we are ever likely to get to calling something an objective thing, and the seeming inabilty of particular value judgments about solar energy to be construed in turn as anything other than subjective/political opinions.

Serendipper wrote: There is nothing that's not abstract except the one thing that can't be beheld because you cannot look at yourself. Everything that you think is a thing is carved out of something bigger (ie an abstraction).


More abstraction. Bring these assumptions down to earth. Note the actual existential implications of them pertaining to actual human interaction in conflict.


Serendipper wrote: I don't know how.

You want action A
I want action B
Who wins?

Metaphors reign where mysteries reside. There is no way to bring it down to earth and even if I could, it would simply create something else that needed to be brought down to earth.


More abstraction. You want action A in a particular context. Someone else wants action B. Therse are objective facts. But how are philosophers able to determine which action reflects that most rational and virtuous action?

And to what extent is what you think you want here predicated more on rational discourse than on the manner in which I construe the meaning of dasein here?

And someone partial to Romain Rolland "oceanic feeling" or freud's "primitive ego-feeling" would have to bring this down to earth. What do they mean in regard to particular behaviors that we choose in particular contexts given [in turn] what we think is true "in our head" about all of it in either a God or a No Go world.

And, once determined, how ought rational men and women configure their moral and political narratives in regard to abortion?

Serendipper wrote: According to their own convictions I suppose.


And how are their convictions not embodied in the manner in which I construe the meaning of dasein here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529

That's what I do here. I offer others a chance to bring their own value judgments out into the world of conflicting goods that we live in today. To describe them such that they do not think of "I" here as being down in a hole.


Serendipper wrote:I'm more than happy to play along, but it takes a good deal of energy to figure out what you're meaning with these obscure terms like dasein, conflicting goods, here and now. Talking to you is expensive in terms of blood glucose lol


Okay. Choose a context. Choose a set of behaviors in conflict. The whole point of bringing the discussion here down to earth is to make the terms less obscure. To connect them with the thinking of people who choose one thing rather than another. To note those objective facts that all rational men and women can agree are true for all of us.

Serendipper wrote: Matt Dillahunty had a good argument for abortion saying that if one human doesn't have the right to parasite himself off another human without permission, then why afford that right to humans who haven't been born? That seems pretty solid.


It's "solid" only given its initial assumptions. As though others who argue against abortion don't have their own initial set of assumptions.

Then it comes down to the extent to which someone is willing to admit that: I'm right from my side, your right from your side. Or insists instead that their own assumptions are predicated objectively on one or another God or political ideology or intellectual [deontological] contraption or assessment of "nature".


Serendipper wrote: The only way to refute his argument would be to explain how you're different from a fetus such that a fetus has the right to parasite itself off someone else but other humans do not.


Sans God, how could any mere mortal know beyond all doubt what the unborn have a right to? And, despite how different I might be from the fetus, I would not myself be around now if I had been aborted.

It always comes down to those who insist that the unborn have a "natural right" to life and those who insist that pregnant women have a "political right" to choose abortion.

Show me an argument able to demonstrate that it is either one or the other?

Serendipper wrote: Even if reason and evidence were a foundation, we still must have faith in it. There is no distinction between the absolute and the relative because whatever truth you hold will be relative to that yardstick. You either appeal to deontology or popularity or whatever foundation in accordance with how you're put together and with regard to a particular sequence of experiences.


Yes, only to the extent that one is able to grasp Existence itself, are they able to jettison the part about faith. But some yardsticks -- Donald Trump is president of the United States -- seem considerally more likely to measure the objective truth than others -- building Donald Trump's wall on the Mexican border is the right thing to do.

You either grasp this distinction as I do here or you don't.


Serendipper wrote: Is it objectively true that the bishop moves diagonally in chess? What happens if someone changes the rule? Nothing happens because it's not objective, but relational. Some people don't consider Trump to be president.


Sure, if you want to go that far out on the "what is reality?" limb, almost anything can be rationalized. But few are going to argue that it is immoral to recreate chess so the that the bishop can move both diagonally and horizontily/vertically.

And others can be just as adament that Trump is not president of the United States as they are that building the wall on the Mexican border is immoral.

"In our head" we can think that anything is true. We can think that Trump is just a character in a Sim world or a creation in some demonic dream. So all it can ever come down to in the end is in closing the gap between what we think is true and what we can demonstrate is in fact true for everyone. With even that problematic given the gap bewtween "I" here and a whole understanding of existence itself.

Serendipper wrote: But really, if there were an objective morality, it would exist independent of humans, which makes no sense because how can morality exist without moral agents? Morality is emergent and not absolute.


What makes no sense to me is making an argument like this as though in making it, it becomes true. And that is basically what you are doing here in my opinion. You have no capacity [that I know of] to substantiate this claim.

And all I ask is that you bring it down to earth and make an attempt to at least try. In particular, as it is relevant to answering the question, "how ought one to live"?


Serendipper wrote: What is objectively true would be true regardless of opinions, so if it were wrong to murder, then it wouldn't be possible to murder. Since it is possible, then its not objectively wrong. Objectivity exists independent of ANY observer.


Again, as an intellectual contraption, this is true for you because it is in sync with all the assumptions you make about the meaning of "objective truth", "opinions", "murder" and "observers".

But put these elements out in a particular context in which different people construe the meaning of a particular killing in conflicting ways and then what?

A particular killing may or may not be demonstrated to have in fact been a murder given the law in any actual particular human community. But different individuals interpreting the facts of the killing in different ways may or may not agree on whether the killing ought to have been illegal. Some may insist it is justified, while others insist it was not.

In other words, we may well not live in a world where there is an objective truth here that transcends the subjective opinions of the observers. They may all agree that Jim killed Jack. But they may not all agree that the killing was justified.

Unless of course we live in a wholly determined universe where so called "subjective opinions" are an illusion.

Serendipper wrote: I'm starting to think you want to be in the hole and are fending off all attempts to pull you out because that's where you want to be. That's fine because I sometimes think I like being in a depressed and gloomy state: as long as things are bad, then I know everything is ok :lol:


No, I am looking for others convinced that they are not down in this hole, to bring their own value judgments out into the world as I do here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

They either will or they won't. And we will either agree that they have or we won't.

But "for all practical purposes" there must be rules of behavior in any particular human community such that some behaviors are chosen to be rewarded and others chosen to be punished. Why these and not those?


Serendipper wrote:It's completely arbitrary.


On the contrary, it is embedded first and foremost in subsistence. And then the extent to which particular historical, cultural and experiential memes, shaped and molded by nature, are in turn able to reconfigure nature into any number of actual social, political and economic permutations. People just don't embody particular thoughts and feelings and behaviors out of the blue.

Again, the exception here being a world in which everything --everything -- unfolds only as it ever could have.

But even here we are back to why it is this way and not some other way.

Serendipper wrote: Is it odd that you're looking for an absolute and then always tell me to bring it down to earth and relate it to something?


I'm not looking for an absolute so much as a frame of mind able to yank me up out of the hole that [intellectually and existentially] I have dug for myself. There seem to be facts about human interactions that we can all agree on. But we react to those facts differently in terms of what we think they tell us about right and wrong behaviors.

And that becomes more and more apparent [to me] when we discuss our specific reactions to specific behaviors out in particular contexts. "I" for me here is constrained by the facts. The facts don't go away just because you think something else is true.

And then the part where the facts are acknowledged by everyone [John eats meat] but our reaction to the facts vary considerably [John ought to or ought not to eat meat].


Serendipper wrote: Ought only exists in relation to a goal. If you want ________, then you ought to do _____________. If you don't want anything, then there is no ought.


That is an ought embedded more in the either/or world. John wants to eat meat. Okay, what ought he to do to accomplish this? Well, he can hunt the animals down himself, he can purchase it in the grocery store, he can steal it from someone. He either does in fact accomplish it or he doesn't. But that is different from the ought embedded in the is/ought world.

Ought he to be a hunter? Ought he to steal? Ought he to eat meat at all?

And human goals...how are they not embedded/emdodied largely in the manner in which I construe the meaning of dasein?

And then conflicting goods. And then political economy.

With respect to existence itself, gravity is related to electromagnetism is related to the strong and the weak interactions. This part: https://science.howstuffworks.com/envir ... nature.htm

Now, can we call these relationships truly absolute? Or, instead, are they related to forces we are not even privy to yet? Even going back perhaps to the existence of God?


Serendipper wrote: They are related to duality. Where did duality come from? Well, duality come from unity: the coin has heads and tails because it's one coin.


I have no idea what "on earth" something like this means. Let alone how it relates to the manner in which I construe the subjective/objective distinction relating to conflicting goods in a No God world.

To the extent that gravity and the other forces are true "absolutely"...how is that related "for all practical purposes" to this duality coming from unity. A coin is a man-made thing embedded in, among other things, the manner in which any particular community goes about sustaining the means of productions. Money, in other words. But there are any number of ferocious conflicts that revolve around what is deemed "just" in regard to the use and the distribution of money in any particular community.

To speak of "objectivity" here being either possible or impossible seems presumptive in the extreme to me.


Serendipper wrote: Objectivity cannot exist unless it is observed and if it is observed, then it's no longer objectivity, but subjectivity because it could only be observed through a subjective lens given by how the subject relates to the object.


Yeah, I sometimes come close to understanding things like this "theoretically". But when actual flesh and blood human beings observe actual phenomena out in a particular world, there are still going to be those things that reasonable people can agree are true, and those things which are deemed true given an attachment to a particular set of moral and political prejudices. Which I then largely subsume in dasein.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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