Morality is falsifiable iambiguous

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Morality is falsifiable iambiguous

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:16 pm

Quite simple really. Make suicide as easy as you can ideally make it, and have zero suicides in existence.

Make homicide as easy as you can ideally make it and have no homicides in existence.

That is moral perfection for life.

If life doesn't survive that, then life has been proven immoral.

It's called falsification iambiguous.
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Re: Morality is falsifiable iambiguous

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:42 am

Ecmandu wrote:Quite simple really. Make suicide as easy as you can ideally make it, and have zero suicides in existence.

Make homicide as easy as you can ideally make it and have no homicides in existence.

That is moral perfection for life.

If life doesn't survive that, then life has been proven immoral.

It's called falsification iambiguous.


Now, we haven't equipped ourselves ideally here, so suicides and homicides in this context don't make an argument.

I will however point out, that this ideal exists, and we are still here.

We have somehow decided this context is worth living... perhaps birth/rebirth karma, or just infinite heaven afterwards.

To the extent that every being was given the capacity to suicide themselves and homicide everyone else, nobody chose to do that.

Doesn't mean there aren't consequences for immorality, simply that every being that exists has already chosen never to hit that switch in ideal realms where they manifest.
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Re: Morality is falsifiable iambiguous

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:14 am

The point made in the first post, is that absolute, pure morality for living exists per the conditions set forth... every being having the ability to destroy every being and nobody doing it ever.

In or less than ideal scenario, we can run inferential proofs of what behaviors kill the least number of people. Number one on the list incidentally is women stratifying their sex toward "players" - males who contradict themselves. This is why post modernism is all the rage.

It's not logically tenable, and that's the whole point.

I ask any moral subjectivist to debate me on the above axiom...

You see, ANYTHING!!! That happens in a cosmos where everyone can destroy all life forever by simply thinking it into being... and nobody does it, makes every subset moral. Doesn't mean there aren't moral consequences - it does mean that everyone agrees with them at root level.
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Re: Morality is falsifiable iambiguous

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:13 am

Ecmandu wrote:Quite simple really. Make suicide as easy as you can ideally make it, and have zero suicides in existence.

Make homicide as easy as you can ideally make it and have no homicides in existence.

That is moral perfection for life.

If life doesn't survive that, then life has been proven immoral.

It's called falsification iambiguous.
Or those alive wnatt to survive and think not killing themselves is gonna help them survive (obvious) and that at least having some other people is more fun and helps them survive (perhaps tricky for some minds to get, but many do). So what is falsifiable need have nothing to do with Good, but rather with selfish urges to survive. A strategy the wolf, the dolphin, the elephant, the musk ox, also will use.
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Re: Morality is falsifiable iambiguous

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:08 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Quite simple really. Make suicide as easy as you can ideally make it, and have zero suicides in existence.

Make homicide as easy as you can ideally make it and have no homicides in existence.

That is moral perfection for life.

If life doesn't survive that, then life has been proven immoral.

It's called falsification iambiguous.
Or those alive wnatt to survive and think not killing themselves is gonna help them survive (obvious) and that at least having some other people is more fun and helps them survive (perhaps tricky for some minds to get, but many do). So what is falsifiable need have nothing to do with Good, but rather with selfish urges to survive. A strategy the wolf, the dolphin, the elephant, the musk ox, also will use.


Not true. The question is what is good in life (moral)?

If every being in existence can just *poof* existence for all beings simultaneously, and not one being chooses this, then life is axiomatically good, and all the subset behaviors are axiomatically good, moral etc...

Think about it a moment before considering that this isn't all true by definition.
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Re: Morality is falsifiable iambiguous

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:15 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
Not true. The question is what is good in life (moral)?

If every being in existence can just *poof* existence for all beings simultaneously, and not one being chooses this, then life is axiomatically good, and all the subset behaviors are axiomatically good, moral etc...

Think about it a moment before considering that this isn't all true by definition.

Let me sum up what you've said, just to make sure we are on the same page.

If every being in existence could destory all life in the universe, and none of them chooses to do that, then life must be good, and all behaviors in life are good since they are a subset of being alive behaviors.

Since the thread begins with falsifiability, what you are saying is: the above is a possible test to see if there are objective morals, hence Goodness can be part of a scientific hypothesis.

Let me know if I have misunderstood or not explained something well enough or left something out, etc.

Problems:
1) just because a hypothesis is falsifiable it does not mean it is true.
2) I don't think the testing protocol limits the variables enough. Someone might 'push the button' for other reasons: temporary rage.
3) I am pretty sure someone would push the button. I am not sure what this would prove or disprove.
4) Every person could be seen as choosing whatever they choose for a variety of reasons, not because they assess life as good or bad. For example some would argue that those who would not push the button would do this because they fear death - iow are programmed to avoid it by their DNA. There could be other explanations.
5) Good in relation to what? Let's say no human pushes the button. And then we humans continue to exist. We develop space travel and destroy other species of intelligent life. Yes, we chose to live, but are we Good?
6) I don't see how all behavior becomes good if we choose to live?
7) Your test would not show that humans are not bad. Bad creatures want to live and be bad. Since they are bad they let all humans live. And the badness continues. i cannot see where self-interest must entail that one is good. I covered this point in another way in the previous post.
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Re: Morality is falsifiable iambiguous

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:12 pm

The test is perfect, and you understood me well.

If any being for any reason, "pushes the button", then it is proof that life itself is immoral. Their condition doesn't matter, only that they understand all life will never have occurred and never will if they push this button - including babies, where the button is placed in every crib.

Since we know for a fact, it has never, nor will ever be pushed... (think all possible universes here) we know for a fact that life was deemed moral to all beings that exist. This isn't about our world so to speak, obviously, everyone being tortured would suicide if they had the option or kill their tormentor (thus torture is immoral).

What I offer is that every being on some plane of existence has this ultimate option available to them, and none ever choose to use it.
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Re: Morality is falsifiable iambiguous

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:53 am

I guess, I think that some people would, in their bitterness, push the button. There is a strong 'if I can't find love (or whatever) then I want no one to, since none of you care, pattern and I think out of the billions more than a few would push that button. Certainly some of the rooftop shooters, etc.

But then I do not think this demonstrates that life is immoral.

We'll just have to leave at we disagree.

But I like the thought experiment. It's a refreshing angle, even if I don't think it holds.

Maybe tweak it a bit.

I'll give it a mull myself.
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Re: Morality is falsifiable iambiguous

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:31 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:I guess, I think that some people would, in their bitterness, push the button. There is a strong 'if I can't find love (or whatever) then I want no one to, since none of you care, pattern and I think out of the billions more than a few would push that button. Certainly some of the rooftop shooters, etc.

But then I do not think this demonstrates that life is immoral.

We'll just have to leave at we disagree.

But I like the thought experiment. It's a refreshing angle, even if I don't think it holds.

Maybe tweak it a bit.

I'll give it a mull myself.


I don't think it needs any tweak. Even if someone trips and accidentally hits the button... *poof*. Proof that existence is immoral.

Sure, lots of people may want to continue on, perhaps even forever, but who are they to judge others or the cold hard fact that an accident could *poof* us all ... not much of an existence then!
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