Morality is fake and doesn’t exist

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Re: Morality is fake and doesn’t exist

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:17 am

Serendipper wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Serendipper wrote:If determinism is true, then there certainly is no such thing as morality.
So, no one, for example, in a deterministic universe, is affected by ideas of the Good towards certain behaviors not others?

If determinism is true, then there is no "one". No you, no me, no others.
That's avoiding the issue I raised.
Morality is often arrogance, egoism, and identification with self.
How can something that does not exist be, only often, these other things?

That question says a lot indeed. If there is no good and bad, but you insist that there is, then that's arrogance.
I haven't insisted there is good and bad. In fact I am a moral nihilist. But morality exists. And if morality cannot exist in a determinist universe how the hell can arrogance. And what is the point of saying I am being arrogant. It is utterly irrelevant.

For example you assert a god and rules, then you've laid the groundwork for a system where you are above those who don't follow the rules of the non-existent god. The whole ideology is a game of one-upmanship.
Wow. I mean, hopefully you are familiar with the term strawman. And this is not just an example of a strawman in relation to me, it is an example in relation to people in general. AND AGAIN. You use what you seem to think is a negative root for morality, iow one you judge from a moral standpoint, to argue that morality does not exist. And you use a theist example, as if this was the only kind.

Further it seems like you are making a moralistic claim against the existence of morals.

lol yeah that's the humor in it. There are a lot of paradoxes:

It is objectively true that there is no objective truth.
We shouldn't think in terms of ought and should.
It's bad to believe in good and bad.
Moderation in all things, including moderation.
No tolerance of intolerance.
All things must exist in relation to something else, except the totality.
All statements must be backed by empirical evidence, except this one.

(I *should* make a list)
I am not sure how calling your position paradoxical means that it isn't self-contradictory and thus problematic. Was this meant as conceding my point?

Good point. I think it boils down to defining sin as "the assertion of illusion" and therefore defining yourself to exist (pride) is the only possible sin.
I don't believe in sin not did I mention it.

Virtue that is conscious of itself as virtue, is not virtue. Virtue that is not thoughtful of itself as virtue, is virtue. This is why I say the only innocent motivation is that of "fun" (which is lack of conscious motivation; it's just following nature without thought of action; purposelessness).
Well, not only are you giving an example of a morality that exists, you have that morality.

We could say that morality is illusory then, but it's not as profound nor funny. Simply saying it's illusory doesn't conjure the idea that's it's bad to think in terms of good and bad. The distinction is that thinking in terms of good and bad is not itself illusory, but the good and bad are illusory; therefore it's bad to think in terms of illusions.
1) there is a distinction between believing that objective good and bad do not exist and thinking that morality does not exist. I believe I am not the only one pointing out that morality clearly exists, even if what is called good and bad are not objective. It might be helpful for the discussion if you could acknowledge this or defend the position that morality does not exist also. So far you haven't done that. 2) you are a moralist. cAlling it ironic and paradoxical does not eliminate it being a morality, one that is used to judge people, and would end up, say in parenting, leading to guilt just like any other morality, for example.


Philosophers and social psychologists have noted that pride is a complex secondary emotion which requires the development of a sense of self https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride

So the more "plugged into the matrix" you are (realize your self), the more proud you are (under illusion).
And the sin of pride is being asserted. People often think that if they deny that they have a belief or do not openly state it, the way what they do functions in relations to others no longer exists. But that is not the case. You have a morality which judges people based on one could paraphrase their relation to ego or self and ideas related to that AND related, but not the same, in relation to pride. Morality, moral judgment, hierarchy of selves - even if you think they do not exist - an a communication dynamic that will do the same things that other moralities do. You, from the inside, don't really get to say this is all ironic, but it is ironic.

I was really entering to focus on the existence of morality or moralities, but here I find not just that you believe moralities exist, but you even have found yourself one you think is objective. When you meditate,do you notice the way you judge people from it?

I find it easier to deal with moral objectivists who know they are moral objectivists. Not because their arguments are easier to counter, since some of them can be really quite ingenious, but because they are more honest about what they are doing.
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Re: Morality is fake and doesn’t exist

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:07 pm

Serendipper,

If determinism is true, then there is no "one". No you, no me, no others.


Speak for yourself! Yours is not a path that I would travel on. There is always another side to that coin.
The freedom to act, the freedom to transcend.

The Path of Least Resistance
The Human League

Faced with the choice
What would you say?
The path of least resistance
It seems the only way
But can we look a little further?
Too little far I think
Self-belief's the answer
And not another drink
The safe method, the only way
You rationalise your course
Stay part of the crowd
And never find the source
Feel wanted, feel numb
Just stay as you are
The truth is - comfort kills
And you don't need that car
So sad, the early grave
When all the fun's for free
Start digging the early grave
And keep it warm for me
Faced with the choice
What would you say?
The path of least resistance
It seems the only way
But let's look a little further
Too…
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Morality is fake and doesn’t exist

Postby Serendipper » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:37 am

There is a major miscommunication here lol. When I said "you", I meant "for instance if you were". It's a generality of shorthand and not directed at you personally. Probably just how I talk.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Serendipper wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:So, no one, for example, in a deterministic universe, is affected by ideas of the Good towards certain behaviors not others?

If determinism is true, then there is no "one". No you, no me, no others.
That's avoiding the issue I raised.

No it's not. If everything is determined, then you do not exist. If you do not exist, then how can you be moral or anything else? What I mean by "you" is you as a controlling entity having a will that is not determined by the universe (a free will). If the universe is determined, then it's just a bunch of dominoes knocking each other down and that includes you.

The fatalist is under illusion that the universe is pushing him around because he doesn't realize there is no one to be pushed around in a determined universe; there is just the big happening.

Morality is often arrogance, egoism, and identification with self.
How can something that does not exist be, only often, these other things?

That question says a lot indeed. If there is no good and bad, but you insist that there is, then that's arrogance.
I haven't insisted there is good and bad. In fact I am a moral nihilist.

What I meant was: If there is no good and bad, but if you were to insist that there is, then that's arrogance. I left out "if you were to".

But morality exists.

How do you know?

And if morality cannot exist in a determinist universe how the hell can arrogance.

I guess it can't if arrogance is a moral attribute. But it's a moot point because in a determined universe, no one can exist.

But if you do exist and if morality is an illusion, then believing in an illusion is not itself an illusion, therefore it exists as a delusion, right? The desire to be under that delusion is the arrogance that exists. Morality asserts that you exist, that other people exist, and that you are better than some of them. Afterall, we can't have the moral without the immoral. So in defining yourself as moral, you're defining someone else as immoral.

And by "you" I mean in general and hypothetical.

And morality presupposes that if you were them (which you are), you'd act differently (but you don't). Otherwise you'd have to prove the existence of a "spirit" which is independent of the universe, but somehow able to affect it. Without the magical spirit, you're just the universe and so am I, and so it's arrogant for an arbitrary aspect of the universe to believe it is better than any other aspect. It's self-righteous, hypocritical, conceited. This is true regardless if I am self-righteous, hypocritical and conceited for pointing it out.... as if I'm better than you because I'm amoral. To judge the argument on my behavior is an ad hom and not relevant.

And what is the point of saying I am being arrogant. It is utterly irrelevant.

I'm not referring to you, but speaking generally.

For example you assert a god and rules, then you've laid the groundwork for a system where you are above those who don't follow the rules of the non-existent god. The whole ideology is a game of one-upmanship.
Wow. I mean, hopefully you are familiar with the term strawman. And this is not just an example of a strawman in relation to me, it is an example in relation to people in general.

No it's just an example. Not a strawman. Not essential to my argument, but merely an example as a courtesy for extra clarification.

AND AGAIN. You use what you seem to think is a negative root for morality, iow one you judge from a moral standpoint, to argue that morality does not exist.

I already conceded this point last time lol. (look down a couple inches)

And you use a theist example, as if this was the only kind.

I didn't use it "as if" it were the only kind. I said "For example...."

Further it seems like you are making a moralistic claim against the existence of morals.

lol yeah that's the humor in it. There are a lot of paradoxes:

It is objectively true that there is no objective truth.
We shouldn't think in terms of ought and should.
It's bad to believe in good and bad.
Moderation in all things, including moderation.
No tolerance of intolerance.
All things must exist in relation to something else, except the totality.
All statements must be backed by empirical evidence, except this one.

(I *should* make a list)
I am not sure how calling your position paradoxical means that it isn't self-contradictory and thus problematic. Was this meant as conceding my point?

Yeah your point is valid, but there is some merit in my perspective. For instance if the universe exists, then what does it exist in relation to? That problem has no logical solution because if it exists, then it's not the universe but part of a bigger universe. But if it is indeed the totality of everything, then it doesn't exist because there is nothing to exist in. It's absurd! That's the analogy to the moral argument that paradoxical things are not necessarily self-contradicting. Everything seems at least partially circularly defined (the universe exists in relation to itself because there is nothing that is not the universe in which to relate to).

Everyone has a metaphysical assumption that they can't prove (self-supporting axiom).

Good point. I think it boils down to defining sin as "the assertion of illusion" and therefore defining yourself to exist (pride) is the only possible sin.
I don't believe in sin not did I mention it.

I'm just swapping synonyms for variety.

Virtue that is conscious of itself as virtue, is not virtue. Virtue that is not thoughtful of itself as virtue, is virtue. This is why I say the only innocent motivation is that of "fun" (which is lack of conscious motivation; it's just following nature without thought of action; purposelessness).
Well, not only are you giving an example of a morality that exists, you have that morality.

The mindless and purposeless (fun) cannot be moral. But if the mindless were to flatter itself for its mindfulness, then that's immoral since it conjures into existence that which doesn't exist (self) and asserts the illusion as superior.

Maybe we could say that belief in an illusion causes what would otherwise be illusory to manifest.... similar to light creating its own medium of propagation as it travels. I mean, a wave propagating through nothingness is absurd too, right? In similar fashion, immorality is created by the assertion of morality.

I'm just stabbing in the dark because I don't know, but it wouldn't be a journey if I did.

We could say that morality is illusory then, but it's not as profound nor funny. Simply saying it's illusory doesn't conjure the idea that's it's bad to think in terms of good and bad. The distinction is that thinking in terms of good and bad is not itself illusory, but the good and bad are illusory; therefore it's bad to think in terms of illusions.
1) there is a distinction between believing that objective good and bad do not exist and thinking that morality does not exist.

No there isn't. Morality is delineation into good and bad. Objective-anything can't exist unless it can exist relative to itself, which may be possible, idk.

I believe I am not the only one pointing out that morality clearly exists, even if what is called good and bad are not objective.

Only relative morality exists and even then it's relative to arbitrary culture.

2) you are a moralist. cAlling it ironic and paradoxical does not eliminate it being a morality, one that is used to judge people, and would end up, say in parenting, leading to guilt just like any other morality, for example.

I have no problem admitting I am a hypocrite. I wish I could take my own medicine. But my hypocrisy doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Philosophers and social psychologists have noted that pride is a complex secondary emotion which requires the development of a sense of self https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride

So the more "plugged into the matrix" you are (realize your self), the more proud you are (under illusion).
And the sin of pride is being asserted. People often think that if they deny that they have a belief or do not openly state it, the way what they do functions in relations to others no longer exists. But that is not the case. You have a morality which judges people based on one could paraphrase their relation to ego or self and ideas related to that AND related, but not the same, in relation to pride. Morality, moral judgment, hierarchy of selves - even if you think they do not exist - an a communication dynamic that will do the same things that other moralities do. You, from the inside, don't really get to say this is all ironic, but it is ironic.

I was really entering to focus on the existence of morality or moralities, but here I find not just that you believe moralities exist, but you even have found yourself one you think is objective. When you meditate,do you notice the way you judge people from it?

I find it easier to deal with moral objectivists who know they are moral objectivists. Not because their arguments are easier to counter, since some of them can be really quite ingenious, but because they are more honest about what they are doing.

Don't judge the message by the messenger.

Friend, there is no way out of the game.

Image

And she has found a way to be superior to him by pointing out that he has found a way to be superior to the atheists and fundamentalists.

You've one-upped me by pointing out my hypocrisy and I'll one-up you by redeeming myself and so on and so on.

The only way to win is not to play, which is to not exist as a self. There is no such thing as an unselfish act.
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Re: Morality is fake and doesn’t exist

Postby Serendipper » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:49 am

Arcturus Descending wrote:Serendipper,

Howdy :)

If determinism is true, then there is no "one". No you, no me, no others.


Speak for yourself! Yours is not a path that I would travel on. There is always another side to that coin.
The freedom to act, the freedom to transcend.

If... if.... if determinism is true.

If there is a you, then obviously determinism is not true.


The Path of Least Resistance
The Human League

Reminds me of Occam's razor. The simplest solution wins.



[Verse 1]
There are those who think
That life has nothing left to chance
A host of holy horrors
To direct our aimless dance

[Verse 2]
A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
The stars aren't aligned
Or the gods are maligned
Blame is better to give than receive

[Hook]
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill

[Verse 3]
There are those who think
That they were dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them
They weren't born in Lotus Land

[Verse 4]
All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You can pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate

[Hook]
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill

[Instrumental Solo]

[Verse 5]
Each of us, a cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet

[Hook]
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill
Serendipper
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1251
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Morality is fake and doesn’t exist

Postby phyllo » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:50 pm

Only relative morality exists and even then it's relative to arbitrary culture.
So then it does exist.

I guess that means you only think that objective morality does not exist. Which is another topic of discussion.
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10901
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Morality is fake and doesn’t exist

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:04 pm

Serendipper

Howdy :)


Right back at you cowboy. :evilfun:


If everything is determined, then you do not exist. If you do not exist, then how can you be moral or anything else? What I mean by "you" is you as a controlling entity having a will that is not determined by the universe (a free will). If the universe is determined, then it's just a bunch of dominoes knocking each other down and that includes you.


True, there would not be a real Self. I may be wrong but perhaps part of the reason that people cannot take responsibility or feel that they owe no responsibility toward anyone is because of a lack of real self-identity.
I like the domino scenario. I think that at times there is that domino effect going on in the world as with wars/terrorism, ad continuum but at the same time sometimes those dominoes stop and that is when we can see more clearly what has to be done. At times we have no control, all is going to hell, but then we find that opening and we MOVE.

The fatalist is under illusion that the universe is pushing him around because he doesn't realize there is no one to be pushed around in a determined universe; there is just the big happening.


He needs a new paradigm or vision.

Speak for yourself! Yours is not a path that I would travel on. There is always another side to that coin. The freedom to act, the freedom to transcend.

If... if.... if determinism is true.
If there is a you, then obviously determinism is not true.


Are you throwing the baby out with the bathwater here, Serendipper? I experience a me, I experience others but that does not mean that there is NO such thing as determinism. It is real for me, whether it is nature, the elements, earthquakes, floods, wars, et cetera. We are all touched psychically by and influenced by the things happening around us and people around us, including our individual personal histories and the history of the world. I think that it would be absurd to not realize this just as it is equally absurd to believe that we cannot exercise any kind control of what goes on around us. The *natural* things which we cannot control we control in a sense by realizing that we cannot control them and thereby go with the flow of them.

Perhaps Determinism is not such a bad thing when you think about it because it is that very thing which we come to see and understand that we have no control of which teaches us to rise up,fight and change our own fates/destiny instead of whimpering like the fatalists and the nihilists that there is nothing which can be done.

Free will and choice may not always be so completely *free* as there are unconscious and unremembered movements which flow beneath ~ this I experience ~ but at the same time they are still choices and actions which we plow through which do make us self-determined creatures. Human history itself attests to this. Anyway...lol

Reminds me of Occam's razor. The simplest solution wins.


I figure you were being ironic there.

[Verse 1]
There are those who think
That life has nothing left to chance
A host of holy horrors
To direct our aimless dance

[Verse 2]
A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
The stars aren't aligned
Or the gods are maligned
Blame is better to give than receive

[Hook]
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill

[Verse 3]
There are those who think
That they were dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them
They weren't born in Lotus Land

[Verse 4]
All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You can pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate

[Hook]
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill

[Instrumental Solo]

[Verse 5]
Each of us, a cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet

[Hook]
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill


I never heard that before. It is really very profound and *real*.
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Morality is fake and doesn’t exist

Postby Meno_ » Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:56 pm

Good one , Arc.Couldn't have said it better myself, though as all of You probably have guessed it by now, I do not personally have a self.
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