Atheists should shut up!

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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Tab » Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:52 am

An agnostic, who does not know if God if god exists.


Agnosticism is not the middle ground between theist and atheist. Agnosticism dismisses both stances as equally futile. When it comes to god You can not know. And so I walk into a room where a theist and an atheist are trapped, bound to talk round and round for all eternity, and walk out. It's that simple.

Everything else is up for grabs. I am free to 'know' other things in the way everyone else does.

So far, I have said this.

Theism involves belief. Atheism involves the opposite belief. They are however, both beliefs.

Both of these beliefs are based on pure theory and logic, because there is no observable, or testable empiric data that is consistent for all, or available to all. Even after 200,000 years of human exsitence. Please note here, I do not ask about value, or usefulness, both terms which you introduced, I only ask for consistency of experience, consistency of availability.

The realm of pure logic and theory falls under the jurisdiction of falsifiability. If a proposition cannot be proven false by any irrefutable, or even reasonable means, its claim to truth is moot.

Therefore, both beliefs are worthless. Hold either, hold neither, doesn't matter. Unless of course, simply being seen in society to possess these type of beliefs has worth. But this is socially attributed worth, not worth implicit to the belief itself.

Unlike scientific principles, which even if unfalsifiable at the time of discovery, lead to directly derived applications in the physical world, which are observed to work, and possess consistence both in their generation and effects enabling further reseach and the hope of resolution in the foreseeable future, theistic and atheistic principles have no directly attributable applications in the real world, and thus are stuck. Forever. Barring deus ex machina of course, over which we can have no control, rendering any human effort expended on this topic of discourse, wasted. The bus comes when it comes.

And that's it.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:31 am

And, of course, everyone has and bases choices on beliefs that they cannot and/or have not bothered to falsify or see if they can. Beliefs about the opposite sex, about friendship, about realism, about politics, about what to do in relation to a bad boss, about how to prioritize activities and on and on and on. There are philosophical assumptions, including metaphysical ones, that everyone uses (though they vary individual to individual, that have not been tested and some cannot be tested. There are more navigating the world beliefs and assumptions also that have not been tested and some cannot be that people use. We rely on intuition for all sorts of things also, or rather this is another way of looking at it. We have to and many of them are useful and many are likely correct AND if one has an instrumental epistemology clearly are correct and many are problematic. But we have to do this, because we have only so much time. But for critiics of atheists it is AS IF this is not the case and a rule is produced. But no one follows that rule. No one.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby surreptitious75 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:58 am

Atheism is simply a skeptical position on the existence of deities that are non falsifiable
Agnostic atheists do not believe in God but also know that he cannot really be disproven

God either exists or does not exist and that is the only valid statement that I or anyone can truly make
I do not believe in him but that is because I do not regard belief as a reliable metric for objective truth
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:09 pm

Tab -

"When it comes to god You can not know"

That's a fundie position.

At best you might claim "I can not know" but that too is prescriptive. Pure non-assuming skepticism says only "I don't know at this moment". Except when the person does know.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby surreptitious75 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:35 pm

Any truth claim requires evidence otherwise it cannot be demonstrated even if it is true
Arguments from emotion are logical fallacies and therefore cannot be accepted as valid

Because if the only place where your absolute truth exists is in your own mind then it cannot be objectively true only subjectively so
This can be demonstrated when two are convinced their respective truth is the real one even though they are mutually incompatible
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Tab » Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:36 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Tab -

"When it comes to god You can not know"

That's a fundie position.

At best you might claim "I can not know" but that too is prescriptive. Pure non-assuming skepticism says only "I don't know at this moment". Except when the person does know.


Then I'm a fundie. :D

Karpel keeps using mundane examples insisting that they are comparable, so meh. I'll go talk to a wall, or actually just stop talking. I don't believe either of you have really really considered what a being claiming to be god would have to go through to prove irrefutably to a human existing in this universe that their claim was true, but tbh. it's not worth the brain cells.

Gimme a scenario if you like, I'll shoot it down.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:45 pm

Tab

Say I meet you in the street one day, with a pamphlet. It has REJOICE on the front in big shiny letters. The blurb reads "Tsathoggua is the one true source of all things and Aston Smith is its prophet. And here it is, isn't it lovable..?"
19251402._SY540_.jpg

Now, you look in my whirlygig eyes and see I absolutely believe its true.

I have a belief in Tsathoggua.

Okay. lol Then you need to take me for coffee after having viewed that thing.

However, you, prior to meeting me, had no conception or knowledge of Tsathoggua whatsoever, and therefore had formed no beliefs about Tsathoggua either way because it's impossible to think about things you don't even know you don't know about.

This is a 'lack of belief'. An utter absence of belief.


Hmmm. I am not so sure that I would word it in that way, Tab. Obviously, there can be no belief if there is not first some kind of knowledge. Right or wrong? Belief has to be based on "something".
This is true in one sense but in another sense, you are putting the cart before the horse. Can there be a lack of "something" within "nothing"? I am probably not expressing myself clearly here.

Of course now though, I have introduced you to Tsathoggua, the one true source of all things... So now and only now, do you form a belief concerning its divine sourceness, very probably along the lines of "Tab is a loon and this Tsathoggua business is baloney."


Not really, Tab. My only belief would be that you are greatly delusional. :mrgreen:
Would you not say that there are some things which require no thought at all?

You become an A-Tsathoggua-ist. Denying its greatness. The only difference is now you have a belief about Tsathoggua, whereas before you didn't have any.


I still am not seeing things your way here, Tab. I see no belief nor disbelief. The T simply has no existence for me at all. Perhaps I am missing something here.

ie. believing god exists is a belief, a thing.

Yes it is.

And believing god does not exist is also a belief, a thing.


Hmmm... I am still not sure about this. Something seems to be missing from the equation here.
I can say that the way in which you have worded that statement might make it appear that "not believing' is a belief. But... if a man says: "I do not believe in God" isn't that actually denying the existence of belief?
#-o
I need help. lol

- god. And worse still, an idea that is impossible to prove, or disprove. #-o

This I truly do know.

Because anyone still debating god/not god really hasn't gotten past level one of the great philosophy game. Which makes me have a sad.

But Tab, you came into this thread, true? :evilfun:
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Tab » Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:14 pm

Oh sure, turn up now all the dust has cleared. :D

Arc, who tempted poor Tab into a damn theist thread, wrote:Belief has to be based on "something".


Ok, so you believe in something. The number 1 say. Subtract 1 from that number. Do you believe in the result..? :-"

If you do, then you believe in the absence of something.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby surreptitious75 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:49 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
Obviously there can be no belief if there is not first some kind of knowledge

So knowledge is the foundation of belief ? Are you absolutely certain about this ?
Is it not possible to have belief that is just emotional reasoning and nothing else ?
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby surreptitious75 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:49 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
Would you not say that there are some things which require no thought at all ?

You cannot have a thought that requires absolutely no thinking at all
As that is not physically possible and it also makes no sense logically
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Tab » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:10 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:
Obviously there can be no belief if there is not first some kind of knowledge

So knowledge is the foundation of belief ? Are you absolutely certain about this ?
Is it not possible to have belief that is just emotional reasoning and nothing else ?


Innate 'beliefs' - evolved aversions to snakelike shapes in infant animals. However even this extreme example presupposes some form of ancestral contact - awareness of, knowledge of the existence of - with the target of the belief.

surreptitious75 wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:
Would you not say that there are some things which require no thought at all ?

You cannot have a thought that requires absolutely no thinking at all
As that is not physically possible and it also makes no sense logically


Instincts and reflexes. She didn't specify thoughts.

Sorry Arc, thought I'd save you some time.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:32 pm

Tab wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Tab -

"When it comes to god You can not know"

That's a fundie position.

At best you might claim "I can not know" but that too is prescriptive. Pure non-assuming skepticism says only "I don't know at this moment". Except when the person does know.


Then I'm a fundie. :D

Your position is anyway.

Karpel keeps using mundane examples insisting that they are comparable, so meh. I'll go talk to a wall, or actually just stop talking.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law ;)

I don't believe either of you have really really considered what a being claiming to be god would have to go through to prove irrefutably to a human existing in this universe that their claim was true, but tbh. it's not worth the brain cells.

No idea why I would consider this. Why would a god want to prove that he exists? Can you prove that a god would want this? Utter shenanigans.

Gimme a scenario if you like, I'll shoot it down.

Not interested in that kind of thing.

Im not on anyones side here. Im just making the philosophical, skeptical observation that the phrase "you can't know" is a fundie claim. ("I don't know" is the non-fundie version of what is being tried to convey here) If you want Ill go and add my personal opinion. But only on request.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:58 pm

Oh yah well and if you ask me, does god exist?
I could refer you to Parodites' writings on Gnosticism, which would get you somewhere in the vicinity of the kind of cosmos of concepts wherein the term "god" makes sense to me at all.

Or I can discuss it within the frame of the kabbalists, at which Im rather good.
Playlist of my talks
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Tab » Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:22 pm

I studied a huge book on the kabbalistic tarot back in the day when I was trying to pull gullible university girls so I have some aquaintance with the tree of life and the sephira, but never really bought into it. Studied Wiccan beliefs and magic too, there was no end to my efforts to bolster my chat-up lines. You seem to have Aleister Crowley in there too. All praise the hermetic order of the golden dawn.

I'm sure I should be making some kind of wierd gesture now. Cthulhu fhtagn.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:25 pm

Note that I disagree with Parodites, but at least we understand of each other at what we disagree.
But in short I can tell you that I am certain that whichever God does exist, he/she/it is dependent on the logic Ive divined as much as any entity.

-- see your post

yeah Crowley is a great guy. Truly respect that dude.

But yo, these things are not propositions one needs to buy into, theyre rather tools, one may use to develop different modes of thinking. Lets say instruments enabling different kinds of progressions, as an analogy to music.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Tab » Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:34 pm

I dunno, I'm a bit too mundane, colloquial, Yorkshire-bred for that stuff. All we believe in is bread and butter and workin' downt pit.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby surreptitious75 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:35 pm

Crowley is easily one of the most misunderstood men who ever lived
There is far more to him than what the stereotypical image suggests
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:45 pm

Tab wrote:I dunno, I'm a bit too mundane, colloquial, Yorkshire-bred for that stuff. All we believe in is bread and butter and workin' downt pit.

Thats fair.
I believe that.

And I don't look down on that in the least.

I look down on people who believe in what some book tells them.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:47 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:Crowley is easily one of the most misunderstood men who ever lived
There is far more to him than what the stereotypical image suggests

And he loves being misunderstood.
But there is a whole society built around him - Thelema.

They've got a rather interesting discord group of which Im member.
I can give you the link in a PM if you're interested. You'd need to instal discord. Its a lovely interface with countless interesting servers.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:50 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Im not on anyones side here. Im just making the philosophical, skeptical observation that the phrase "you can't know" is a fundie claim.
Yes. It seems humble, but it is humble for everyone, at all times, and this is no longer humble (not that it was in the first place. It seems like a claim not to know, but in fact it is a claim to know a lot.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:52 pm

These guys always make me smile.
Some excerpt of a chat

***
Hey, any high powered destruction spells?

Asking for a friend

***
Have before you an unopened bottle of Corona beer. Knock once.

"Behold the dawning of the darkened sun, hoisted high upon the wings of the pale bat
She shall encircle the world, having risen from the waters of Ani which reflect the sea of Ain
In Silence shall she leave the world, and so shall begin the New World Order
Therefore, come unto me, you who tightens the breasts of the weak
You who steals the ruach like a thief in the night
You who make men boil like in a fire
thee, thee I invoke"

Make sign of the cross over the corona and consume

***
Thats lit

***
That sounds like. Way too powerful lmao
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:54 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Im not on anyones side here. Im just making the philosophical, skeptical observation that the phrase "you can't know" is a fundie claim.
Yes. It seems humble, but it is humble for everyone, at all times, and this is no longer humble (not that it was in the first place. It seems like a claim not to know, but in fact it is a claim to know a lot.

Well yeah, "you cant know" implies "I know all there is to know for you". Claims don't get any less humble than that.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby surreptitious75 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:58 pm

I have got Crowleys boigraphy by Tobias Churton because I know so little and wanted to learm more about him
I am interested in anyone who is unconventional in any philosophical sense and Crowley fits that bill perfectly
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:00 pm

Alright PM underway.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:02 pm

Except... you don't do PMs, I see.

:-?
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