a new understanding of today, time and space.

This is the main board for discussing philosophy - formal, informal and in between.

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:54 am

ok, further thoughts on entropy...

being and becoming...I have noted this before....

what is being?
and what is becoming?

perhaps, perhaps being is the current situation, whatever that is
and becoming is the effects of entropy on being...

In becoming, we are engaging in entropy unless, unless we manage
to increase the energy input into becoming....

we become and that takes energy if there is no increase in energy,
then all that happened is entropy has taken place and the journey
from being to becoming is simply the journey of entropy..

so we have a diagram::::being-----entropy..... becoming...
that middle part entropy is the journey from being to becoming....

thus there is not really any being, we are always in the process of
becoming which is entropy...the journey of order to disorder.. unless
we find energy to put into that journey in which case becoming
is something other then just entropy.. perhaps an equation

being = entropy + energy = becoming

in my own personal entropy, old age/becoming...
it doesn't matter how much energy I put into my body,
entropy, which is the case of going from order to disorder,
will continue in my body which is the classic definition of
growing old, going from order to disorder...

I'm going from being, my current state to becoming, my future state,
and that will be determined by entropy....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 7695
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:43 pm

hang in there.. spitballing right now...

we have a couple of different theories to combine, somehow,
first we have the previously mentioned chaos and entropy
and we also have self organization....

I believe that we can connect these two idea's....

the act of self organization is well known in biology and chemistry
and physics and other disciplines....
definition of self organization is:

"self organization, also called, (in the social sciences) spontaneous order..
is the process where some form of overall order arises from local interactions
between parts of an initially disordered system. The process can be spontaneous
when sufficient energy is available, not needing control by any external agent"

so, we have social systems that have entropy... for example, we
can list churches, systems like the Catholic church having lost
energy... going from order to disorder...losing energy....

Now as Nietzsche noted, this loss of energy has lead to a situation,
best remarked by the notion, "GOD IS DEAD" and what does this mean?

the energy that we used to put into religion which was a means of
organization, a means of understanding "who we are" and "what we are
supposed to do" "what we are to hope for"

in other words, the Kantian questions.... what does it mean to the
questions of Kant if there is no organizing principle like religion?

the religious question is a question of morality... ethics...
how are we suppose to act in regards to our fellow human beings?

and if we act "properly" then we get a ticket to heaven, but what if
there is no heaven, then what? what becomes the criteria for our
interactions with our fellow human beings if there is not god?

and this was the question that Nietzsche tried to work out....
what is ethics, morality if there is no outside organizing
principle like religion or the church?

Here lies these question of self organization.... under what principles
do we self organize under, in regards to ethics or morality?

that is where we have been, as human beings, over the last 120 years....

if we do not organize with religious principles, then what principles
do we organize with?

and the answers offered so far have been nationalism or other such
anti.. ism's like anti-Semitism or anti- humanism or anti-..whatever....

in other words, the answers have been the rise of the prejudices
and superstitions and biases and habits and indoctrinations
of family, state, church, media.....

the attempt to self organize has been done with the prejudices
and superstitions of people.....not with any sort of rational,
logical attempt...… the philosophies of the 20th century like logical
positivism and phenomenology and ordinary language philosophy
and Neo pragmatism have all been attempts to create a self
organizing system for society within philosophy itself....

but the attempts failed because philosophy itself has
withdrawn from the concerns of the average person....
Philosophy has reduced its own area of expertise into
small, narrow fields of specializations... with few ever
reaching beyond their own field of specialization....

so the question still exists, under what guiding principle do
we self organize if we have removed the guiding principles
of religion that has served as an societal organization pattern
for centuries?

Liberalism and conservativism has been offered up as
possible means of self organization within society.....

the basic idea of liberalism has come from the
historical period called the "Enlightenment"
and conservativism has been basically "anti-Enlightenment"

the liberal ideals of tolerance and the sovereignty of reason,
and the use of knowledge as a guide and progress and fraternity
and the political ideas of constitutional government and the
separation of church and state are all ideas from the Enlightenment....

think of them as self organizing principles...…..

under what principles shall we self organize under?

that is the modern question...…

if we remove the religious question from the mix and
Nietzsche did remove it, "GOD is still dead"

then what shall be our organizing principles?

so said another way, upon what principles shall we
expend energy upon? that is entire question of
what it means to engage in organizing principles,
the use of energy in our engagement with our
chosen organizing principles.....

as human beings, as any system goes from order to disorder,
going from being to becoming, to the basic fundamental
process of the universe, which is entropy, how do we
engage in such a way as to maintain order in our chosen
organizing principles... instead of disorder, we must choose
and practice putting energy into any chosen system if that
system is to remain in order, being.....

so, ask yourself, what organizing principles shall we
organize under?

how shall we self organize?

each of us is an individual atom.... how do we
as individual atoms, become organized enough to
grow into something bigger then just an individual atom?

we know that as individual atoms, we cannot survive..
think of Hobbes and his state of nature: ……"the life of
man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short"....

so we must engage with or have some sort of organized
society which engages in our mutual protection....

the conservative argues that we need less organization,
less energy and that excess energy is put into
our own personal enrichment, but the liberal
who understands that we cannot succeed by our
own efforts knows and understand that we
must join together or die separately....to steal a phrase....

so we need to see society as a means of self organization
and a means of using energy to promote our general

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 7695
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:16 pm

so given the last post, how are we to understand
the 20th century?

the two world wars, the rise of various right wing ideologies,
the holocaust, the dropping of the atomic bomb,
various local brutalities such as pol pot and Stalin and Hitler?

we can account to them the loss of any sort of positive
self organization principles.... in other words,
they, the dictatorships of the 20th century as
attempts to self organize by anti-enlightenment
principles....principles such as tolerance
and the use of reason and self government is
against the values of the anti-enlightenment

conservatives devalue, demote the enlightenment
and its values.....

the 20th century could be considered to be
a battle between forces fighting the battle
between the enlightenment and anti-enlightenment...

which self organizing principles are we going to engage with?

and the question is also asked, why? why engage with
the enlightenment over the anti-enlightenment?

which organizing principles should we engage with?

conservatives fight a rearguard action against
the logical political and social steps of history...
and by that I mean, humans have gone from
family to small groups of families, to small villages
to small towns to city/states to every larger and
more sophisticated political and social systems...

and this growth is a logical progression because
of the ever increasing number of human beings on planet earth...

we cannot, cannot maintain order with the amount of
energy given to a small village that is needed for a
large country....in other words, to maintain society
and the state requires an ever increasing amount of
energy to maintain a balance...… order takes
a lot of energy to maintain.. and if we take
away that energy, then we begin the slide to
disorder...entropy begins its work...

so the amount of energy to maintain a village, is insufficient
to maintain a large city or a large country....

and that is where conservative go wrong...… they are about
denying large social structures the energy needed to maintain
order and by denying that energy, they are pursuing disorder
instead of order...….

to say, we must have a government small enough to drown in
a bathtub is to say, despite the fact that we have large
number of people, we can maintain order with a small amount
of energy.. and this is clearly not true....

the larger the system, the greater the amount of energy
is needed to maintain that system..... we cannot
in the name of conservativism, deny that energy because
to do so will cause the decay, the disorder and final collapse
of that system.....

to be anti-enlightenment is to be against the better angels of our
nature.....love, hope, honesty, charity, justice are values that
are denied by the anti-enlightenment crowd.....

the anti-enlightenment crowd favors emotions, feelings,
intolerance, bigotry, hatred, nationalism, anti-Semitism,

which leaves us the question?

are you a liberal or are you a conservative?

and what values do you value?

and what energy will you place into those values?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 7695
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:49 pm

what other self organizing principles do we have?

any ism or ideology is a self organizing principle...

for example, capitalism is a self organizing principle
Catholicism is another self organizing principle....

we have had some self organizing principles fail,
for example an failed economic system was
Mercantilism....two fairly successful economic systems
were Feudalism and the hunter/gatherer system...…

these are economic systems, we also have
political self organizing systems such
as democracy and monarchy and dictatorships.....

the ones that survive are the ones that can hold and maintain
enough energy to avoid sliding into disorder....
at some point, every single human self organizing
system has failed due to the lack of energy going
into that system.... energy is transferred into another
system or is dissipated into the air.....

we call this dissipation, this loss of energy,
well actually, we don't seem to have an
a name for the failure of political or economic
systems by the loss of energy enough to keep them going.....

we should however begin to name this loss of energy into
social, political or economic systems....

for example, the fall of Rome was really a loss of energy...
that energy that was used to keep Rome an empire,
began to go to Christianity and that loss lead to the failure
of Rome..... and the rise of Christianity....
want to understand social, political and economic
systems, then understand how energy drives
them and when energy leaves them.....

success and failure comes from the level of,
or the amount of energy a system has.....

American is going to fail, at of right now, because of
the energy that is needed to keep America going,
is going into such silly things as nationalism and
other such negative systems.. as anti-Semitism
and anti-humanism...….

energy is defined in both energy, time, money, effort
and enthusiasm about the system in question.....

put your energy into hating people and intolerance
and bigotry and prejudice, you are taking energy
away from America... it is as simply as that....
and every bit of energy that is taken away from America,
is one step closer to disorder and chaos and the final
dissolution of America.....

MAGA isn't putting energy into America... it
is about hate and negative energy toward others
that aren't you or believe in what you believe in.....

every single person who wears a MAGA hat is
engaging in taking energy away from America
and putting it somewhere else....toward
the dissolution of America.....

so where do your loyalties lie?

with your prejudices, bigotries, hatred, anti-humanism
or do your loyalties lie with reason, tolerance, justice,
hope and love?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 7695
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:28 pm

after a nice walk with the wife....

the future of philosophy lies in the next philosophy...
which is to say, what is after the Enlightenment-
anti-enlightenment philosophy?

where do we go after this?

I don't see academic philosophy having an answer because they
are involved in the narrow, academic specialties of their profession....

and I don't see politicians becoming involved in the creation
of the next set of ism's after the enlightenment.. anti-enlightenment.. battles

it seems to me that the next period of philosophy that comes about
will have both the enlightenment/anti-enlightenment theories
mixed together....

However, I could be very wrong and the next philosophical
stage has nothing to do with either the enlightenment/anti-enlightenment

but philosophy does seem to flow from one stage to another in
a coherent fashion....

Descartes flowed from the rise of science and the attempt
to fix the range of knowledge, the theory of epistemology,
took hold for 200 years....which was the point of Descartes..
to understand what we can know and not know.....

but our questions have moved beyond simple knowledge
and what we can know and not know....

we have passed on to the other side of epistemology
and moved into the understanding of what it means to
be human without the self organizing principle of religion.....

what other self organizing principle/principles can we use to
self organize?

beyond the obvious political/economic/social systems of
capitalism or communism or Catholicism or
democracy or dictatorships or monarchy or...…

we need to explore our possibilities in some other
political/economic/social system beyond, or outside
of our current systems....

we have a new world and a new world requires, demands a new
political/economic/social system...

and what will that new system be?

and what possibilities will it explore?

the battle between the enlightenment
and the anti-enlightenment forces needs
to move to a new battle ground...

and how do we know this?

because we are stagnate, fixed where we are right now...
and this stagnation is draining energy from us and our
current systems...

we must put our energy, time, money, effort into
a new system that will engage all of us into
a new understanding of what it means to be human
and what are our possibilities...

so, what is after the enlightenment?

answer that and you are on the way to becoming the
next Nietzsche....or Plato or Spinoza.....or perhaps Kant?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 7695
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state


Return to Philosophy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users