a new understanding of today, time and space.

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Meno_ » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:47 pm

iambiguous wrote:
nihilism is the negation of human beings and their values.....

I belong to a union where we must, must unite together to
be able to combat the ongoing and ever present
nihilism of capitalism and corporations that slavishly
follow the nihilism of the modern world...…..


Yeah, I get this. The global economy is clearly personified by amoral capitalists. With their crony pols in the government, their military industrial complex states and their thugs in the military and police departments. And in an increasingly autocratic world.

And, sure, when your frame of mind revolves almost entirely around a potent combination of "what's in it for me?" and "show me the money", it's moral nihilism all the way down.

But the alternatives you propose are [to me] almost always encompassed in general description intellectual contraptions. And, from my frame of mind, a hop, a step and a jump from your own rendition of moral and political objectivism.

Unfortunately, in either direction, I am no less fractured and fragmented. And, so, not to be brutally cynical about the world we live in today is becoming increasingly out of reach.

Good luck with whatever hope you have managed to cling to.



Unless the autocrats see this as an obvious requirement to retain some measure of essential control, in the , vise of a hidden God.!
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:11 pm

both Iam and Meno have interesting if not slightly different takes...

today, I shall offer up another thought....

as I have written that the world is Marxian.. which is to say,
we are just as negated under Marxism as we are negated under
Capitalism....and vast forces which we have no control over dominate
us... the Coronavirus begins in China and wrecks havoc all over the world
and we, as individuals, have very little control over what may happen in regards
to governmental responses to the virus or to what the business we work for might do.....

when vast forces such as capitalism act, we individually, have very little control over it.....

I call that a Marxian world...… but the other choice is a Kierkegaardian world.....

which is to say, what happens out there is of far less important then what happens
inside of us... is far less important then the choices we make about who we are
and what it means to be human and what our values are going to be...…

To balance out the world, we need to balance out the Marxist world out there
with Kierkegaardian choices.....I see this as a balancing act.... when the world
takes our control away, we must immerse ourselves in our choices, think of this
like those famous scales of justice.. which must balance... if the world goes way
out of line then to balance the scales, we must go the other way in making choices.....

if the world makes few demands of us, then we don't have to go to extreme lengths
to balance the scales.....

if the world is moderate, we too can be moderate in our response to the
question, who are you and what does it mean to be human?

if the world is extreme, like it is now and demands all our time, money, effort,
to help maintain the world as it negates and dehumanizes us, then we must react
in extreme ways to deny the world its devaluation of human beings....

this sounds abstract but in my mind it isn't... I can clearly see how the world
has tried to deny who we are by the demands of the world that we sacrifice ourselves
to create profits/money.....

and the world shows us this devaluation every time it places money or profits
or material goods before human beings and their values....

when people demand that we put taxpayers money before
human beings, then we are devaluing people and their values....

when the state places private property before people and their values,
then we are devaluing people... dehumanizing them...

that extremism must be fought... and we can fight back with
Kierkegaardian choices......K. question was this,
how can one become Christian in a Christian world?

He felt that becoming a Christian was an individual choice, made
individually within the confines of our possibilities....

ask yourself, what choices do you make that exist outside of
confines of what society demands? for example, as a young person,
you must at some point decide to "do" something because that is a choice
society demands on all of us.... become a "productive" member of society.....

if I am asking myself what does it mean to be human and what are our possibilities,
but the standards of society, I am not, not being productive....I am leaching off
of society.....in asking personal, individual questions of existence....

Society/state demands that we are productive members of society....
but in that "being productive" we must sacrifice ourselves, out bodies
and soul and that is where I draw the line.....I must contribute to society
and that contribution must be in energy and effort and time into creating
profits.... and that is the only option available to me....

I have no other value outside of the creation of profits.....

and yet I deny this.. I can contribute by laying out the ground work of
what it means to be human in out modern age... but Kropotkin, you aren't
really being a "productive member" of society if you don't consume or produce
in ways that create profits...and that is a Marxist/capitalist vision of what it means
to be human....

the Kierkegaardian vision of being human asks ourselves, what does it mean to be human?

what are my possibilities? to engage with god is certainly one such possibility
but that is frowned upon within society because it doesn't create or consume
in ways that creates profits.....

to think about what our possibilities are isn't about creating profits
and that is the question K. asked.....

he engaged with one of the human questions and his answer was god.....

but Kropotkin, tell us what questions we should engage with?

I cannot... I can only tell you what questions I am engaged with....
each of us come to this individually, with our own questions about what it
means to be human and thus I cannot tell you what questions are yours....

and this choice, this possibilities of choices is Kierkegaardian...to engage
with your own possibilities is Kierkegaardian and not Marxism or capitalism...…

and that should we engage with something that doesn't create profits, is
against the prejudices and biases of our modern age....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby promethean75 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:16 pm

I call that a Marxian world...… but the other choice is a Kierkegaardian world.....


no pete you can't kick-or-guard against karl because he's like a UFC grappler... and you've seen what happens to folks who fuck with grapplers in the cage.

the whole kierkegaardian philosophical program was a brilliant expression and symptom of everything karl had diagnosed as the psychological basis for philosophy itself. and while karl never denies that european existentialism did ask legitimate questions about the nature of existence, the sonofabitch had enough sense to know the difference between conceptual problems and real, lived material struggle against real, lived material problems, and didn't waste time fiddling with poetry and creative writing projects. besides, how much of K's career as a polemicist was directed against the bourgeois and the church? see what i mean? there would be no bourgeois and church if karl were made sheriff from the beginning.... and hence, no kierkegaardian philosophical program.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:56 am

promethean75 wrote:
I call that a Marxian world...… but the other choice is a Kierkegaardian world.....


no pete you can't kick-or-guard against karl because he's like a UFC grappler... and you've seen what happens to folks who fuck with grapplers in the cage.

the whole kierkegaardian philosophical program was a brilliant expression and symptom of everything karl had diagnosed as the psychological basis for philosophy itself. and while karl never denies that european existentialism did ask legitimate questions about the nature of existence, the sonofabitch had enough sense to know the difference between conceptual problems and real, lived material struggle against real, lived material problems, and didn't waste time fiddling with poetry and creative writing projects. besides, how much of K's career as a polemicist was directed against the bourgeois and the church? see what i mean? there would be no bourgeois and church if karl were made sheriff from the beginning.... and hence, no kierkegaardian philosophical program.



K: ah, you have made my point for me... notice the very words you used....

Marx "had enough sense to know the difference between conceptual problem and real, lived
material struggle against real, lived material problems, and didn't waste time fiddling with
poetry and creative writing projects"

Marx didn't care about beauty or love or poetry or anything that actually does give
our life meaning... whereas Kierkegaardian problems are problems about beauty,
love, poetry.. in fact, we read Kierkegaard for his thoughts about Aesthetics..
thoughts about the things that Marx never notice or wrote about....

the world would be better off if we engaged in the Kierkegaardian problems
of love, beauty, poems, creative writing projects, Aesthetics... that is why we
read someone like Kierkegaard.....

Marx is engaged in economics and certainly doesn't have time for such
trifles like poetry or beauty... and so is the modern world of capitalism...
it doesn't have time for anything that doesn't "contribute" to the GDP or
the Dow Jones...that is the difference between the modern world of Marxism/
capitalism and a Kierkegaard world...….

I think we should engage in art and beauty and love with equal or more fervor as we
engage with material matters of profits and money or perhaps I could be so bold
as to suggest and be very unamerican in doing so and suggest that we should engage
in far less profits/money and far more engagement with art and beauty and love
and poetry and all matters of Aesthetics....

and that is my point....less materialism and more Aesthetics.. less marx/capitalism
and more Kierkegaard....

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby promethean75 » Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:43 pm

I think it's time that you read this, Pete.

Existentialism cannot take precedence in our world any longer. Maybe in the 20th century, but not today. We gotta get our ducks in order so we don't fuck this thing up. We can't afford these philosophical distractions anymore, Pete.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:21 pm

promethean75 wrote:I think it's time that you read this, Pete.

Existentialism cannot take precedence in our world any longer. Maybe in the 20th century, but not today. We gotta get our ducks in order so we don't fuck this thing up. We can't afford these philosophical distractions anymore, Pete.



K: I thank you for your recommendation of that essay by George Novack….
I haven't seen it before... it fits perfectly into my way of thinking over this
last year or so and it ties into the latest book I am reading: Order out of chaos,
Man's new dialogue with nature.. by Ilya Priogogine and Isabelle Stengers…..

the essay by Novack is about Marxism and existentialism.... the
reason that they are diametrically opposed to each other... and why they
cannot be fused into one theory.... I have read that essay at least 12 times
in the last day... I have come to think that Marxism and Existentialism can
be fused into one theory... because they describe two different things....

Novack's essay has this: "For existentialism the universe is irrational;
for Marxism it is lawful"

that in a nutshell describes the two... but it doesn't mean that they cannot
be fused into one theory....for example, we know that we exists within a
universe that has laws, all kinds of natural laws... we have the laws of thermodynamics
and the laws of gravity and the laws of evolution... we are bound by and created by
various different types of natural laws.... but we do have a chaotic universe despite
these many laws that dictate what kind of universe we live in...

we know that evolution for example depends upon chance and probability to
work and we know from such theories as Schrodinger's cat, for example.....
and Quantum Mechanics... the universe despite its "Laws" still has
chance and probability working within it....

we can guess that the "laws" of the Marxist can be applied to humans beings,
largescale and existentialism can be applied to humans small scale....

we can see from the game baseball for example, that there are very defined
rules for the game of Baseball.... Baseball exists within these defined rules,
there are 3 outs per side in one half inning and the game lasts for 9 innings
and that only 9 players can play in the field at one time and you only get three
strikes and you are out.... and yet, even in a game with such rules as baseball,
there exists chance and probability... hit the ball into the air and there are several
possibilities....hit the ball on the ground and there are several more possibilities....
perhaps the ball might hit a bird or perhaps the ball will be carried by the wind or
perhaps the ball might caught or caught and then dropped.. we cannot know in
advance what possibilities will exist during any given play.....

and so the same goes for the game of life.... we have set rules or laws which
we humans must obey, the law of gravity and the laws of physics... we must obey
those laws/rules or face serious consequences... and yet, within those rules lies
possibilities and chance and probabilities.....the human framework
does have rules and laws that must obeyed.. and yet we face chance and
possibilities within our lives...there is a set "law" that all human beings must die,
and yet, we in fact, cannot say that rule/law has been absolutely followed in
human history.....we don't know.. we can guess or assume but we can't know...

even within certain "absolute" rules/laws, there lies ambiguity...…

I am bound by certain physical, natural laws to be sure, but I am also
bound by certain human laws and rules... but within those laws lies
uncertainty and ambiguity....the law and god says, thou shall not kill and
yet, within that law of god and man, lies a great deal of ambiguity
and uncertainty...…….I can kill if I am a police officer in the line of duty
and I face some "risk" and I can kill if I kill in self defense and I can kill
as a solider in the army and there no risk and in fact, depending on
the situation, I can be rewarded by medals or promotions or I can be demoted
or even fired....

we speak of laws and rules as being absolute and certain but the reality is
that the rules of the universe, the laws of gravity for example may be
easily broken if we understood it better.....but for now, it is complete and
absolute.... for now...….it is the lawful way to think of our natural universe....
just as Marxism is the lawful way to think of human beings... we might be bound
to certain historical laws just as Marxism suggests but that doesn't mean we
are historically bound to those laws.....

for example, the principle of progress that has had so much attention
since the enlightenment.... we have clearly progress materially since
the time of pre-history... but it isn't clear if that rule/law of progress is
really a fixed, certain law or if it is an ad hoc law... just a temporary solution
to a question we have......we may be able to dump the law of
progress given enough time and understanding of our current situation.....

as the Marxist suggest, we exists within a certain framework and time period...
we are born into a already settle set of ism's and ideologies and biases
and superstitions and habits... I was born in 1959 and I was born into a given
set of circumstances in the Midwest part of America...the kids born today
are born into a completely different set of circumstances.... and yet, they
are born, as I was, in the United States...the general rules of America still
exists, then and now, we hold that America is the greatest country on earth
and we are still that shining city on the hill... but even the nature of that statement
that "America is the greatest country on earth" has changed.... times change
and is that progress? I couldn't say.... what was progress in 1959 is different then
progress today.....but the very word of progress hasn't changed...
our idea of progress has changed and has been adapted into our current situation.....

as a rule, progress still exists, it is still a rule and law...but its very nature has
changed.....

existentialism and Marxism may just be explanations of the different aspect
of human existence... one discusses the individual aspect and one explains
the rules/laws of existence... both may be right and both may be wrong...…

but that doesn't mean they are completely foreign to each other or they
describe the exact same thing......I think they are compatible and
describe different aspects of human existence...…

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:05 pm

we have, as noted, various rules/laws of science....
we have the rules of motion as defined by Newton
and we have the rules of Relativity as defined by Einstein..
both rules/laws are rules of motion.. how things move...

but how does rules/laws of motion help us understand what it
means to be human or what our possibilities are?

we have strict laws of motion and gravity but they don't
help us in our understanding of what it means to be human.....

those laws/rules don't give us the means to know what values
we should hold to or what is our place in the universe...…

the law/rules of the physical universe, of gravity and motion
and evolution and thermodynamics do not answer the
Kantian/Kropotkin questions of existence.....

How does a law/rule of motion help me to "know what I am to do?"
or how does the law of gravity help me to know "What should I hope for?"
or how does the law of thermodynamics help me to know
"What values should I hold?"

Marxism which is very much about the laws of nature but those laws
don't offer us any answers as to what it means to be human.....
yes, Marxism is "lawful" but that doesn't answer my questions about
what possibilities should I strive for, what possibilities are the possibilities
that will make me more then just animal/human. The laws of science,
that Marxism so believes in, doesn't offer me any answers as to what I
should believe in and what I should live for and what I should die for.....

just like the laws of man, the laws of society that has left questions of
morality and possibilities to the side.... the law of man says that slavery is
legal and women are nothing more then the property of men and Jim crow
laws were legal and that whites and blacks couldn't marry as recently as 1969.....

just because it is legal, doesn't make it moral or right... it is just legal.....
and legal questions rarely ever answer questions of morality and what is right.....

just as the laws of Marxism are "lawful" doesn't make the laws of Marxism
to be laws we should be obeying...……

the laws of Marxism may be laws which reflect the many but doesn't reflect
the one...….. existentialism may be rules about the one but doesn't reflect
the many or all...…

it is about the application of the rules which defines who we are.....

we must apply the right rules to the right person....

to the one, we may apply existentialism
and to the many, we may apply Marxism.....

and thus we can say without fear, that the two, Marxism
and existentialism can be fused, united into one overall rule or rules...…

because they apply to different number of people.....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:05 pm

both communism and capitalism are "materialistic" theories which
means they are not concerned with values.. but they are concerned with
"real live material struggles" they weren't concerned with such questions
of love or poetry or truth or Aesthetics questions like beauty....

no, they are down to earth and factual.. about the questions of
the bottom of the pyramid, that of how do human beings
engage with the important questions of fulfilling needs like
food, water, shelter, education and health care... important questions
to be sure, but questions of policies... what policies will get people
their basic necessities....and questions like should the tax rate be
23% or 25%?… are nothing more then policy questions...

and I'm not saying those questions are unimportant, I am saying that
they aren't the only questions of existence....

I am asking what are the values behind those policy decisions?

we can see very clearly the values questions with IQ45....

he and his followers believe in negative values of hate and anger and fear
and greed and lust and his policies follow those values.... he has no problem
locking up children in concentration camps and he has no problem with policy
issues of denying people food or water or any other basic necessity
people need to live.....and that denial of basic human necessities stem
from the very bedrock of values that IQ45 and the GOP party holds which
is money/profits are of more value then people lives....

in other words, your actions flow from the values you hold....

we cannot create actions without values behind them.....

the Democrats fighting for the nomination are fighting policy
differences.. they are not fighting a battle over values...
and that is the difference between the GOP and the democrats...…

the democrats are fighting over policy differences....

but in the end, the questions arises as it must...…

do you support values like hate and anger and fear and lust and greed?

do you teach your children these values?

do you hold to your daily actions with those negative values?

I don't and I don't believe most people hold to those negative values...

but if the democrats want to win, they must clearly and loudly
proclaim their values.

and those values must be of love and hope and charity and peace and justice
and then, then implement policies which exemplify those values.....

if we are to become that city on the hill, then we must hold values that
raise us up to being that city on the hill.... it is values that determines
if we are that shining city on the hill or if we are just another failing
country...…

IQ45 and his followers hold and believe in negative values...
and we must hold to and believe in higher/positive values....

which America do you want? do you want our values to be negative,
values of fear, hate, anger, greed, lust, nihilistic values that deny
human beings and their values? is that the America you want?
is that what being a human being is? a holder of negative values
in which we demand hate and greed and lust and intolerance
and bigotry in our selves and our leaders?

and we must question within ourselves, what values do we hold
and what values ought we hold?

not what actions should we take, but what values we should hold?

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:17 pm

ok, let us try this.....

we know from relativity that we "see" events from two different
perspectives... let us take a car accident...if I stand next to the
car accident and you stand far away, because of our "perspective"
we will see different aspects of the car accident...now is there some
"neutral" ground upon which we can see that accident? no, from every
single "viewpoint" lies a different perspective and from each "viewpoint"
give us a "different answer as to what is the truth....

this idea of viewpoint also governs our understanding of the
social, political, historical and philosophical....
from where I stand and my historical background
determines what my perspective is... if I am poor and a minority,
changes my perspective on events, such as something like a tax cut...
or a how judges are chosen.....if I am white and middle class, such as I am
today, then my viewpoint, my perspective is different on events like tax cuts...

at one time, my family was so poor, that we got lunches at school,
and sometimes that was close to all I had to eat....that perspective,
that viewpoint changes how I react to the idea of the role of government....

I see government as being a good thing because of my historical, philosophical,
and social history... whereas someone from a different background might see government
as being, as Raygun said, "Government isn't the solution, its the problem"
where I see government as being part of the solution.... but that is because of
perspective, viewpoint, my "historical baggage" of education and family
and life experiences.... to say, one is wrong is to say, your "historical baggage"
is wrong... but given we have no one viewpoint from which we can state
unequivocally "this is the truth"....

that is not to say, solutions aren't available....

we can understand and accept certain "truths" about human beings....

we are social creatures... a human alone is a human dead....we cannot,
cannot survive alone...… we must have help from other human beings if
we are to survive and even thrive.....we cannot educate ourselves,
we cannot feed ourselves, we cannot raise ourselves... in the memorable
description of Hobbes, "life outside of society would be solitary, poor, nasty,
brutish and short".

and he is right.... we must, must have other human beings to exist....
from that we can to begin to understand the role of government and society
within our lives....

but Hobbes solution of putting some powerful individual or parliament in charge,
is a personal, individual viewpoint of one such solution to the human condition....

others seem to believe that the "best" government is the least government....

but that solution fails the test of being able to survive and thrive as human beings....

we must have a strong civic structure to survive, but that doesn't mean we must
have a strong man or dictatorship for this to happen....

a strong civic structure can be a democracy or a monarchy or a
representative democracy... if we are to also include the basic premise
that all people should be able to determine their own past, present and future....

self determination is a crucial part of our human condition....

for if we do not have self determination, we become disconnected and
alienated from our political and social system...……

this is quite evident today in America...we have more people not voting then
voting and this is a sign of the profound disconnect and alienation people
feel about our current political system...….

I have played sports my whole life and one of the key factors in
creating a successful team is every single member of the team must
buy into the teams success.... if you see a successful team, you have seen
the buy in that every single team member did...….and in America today,
we don't have the buy in that is essential for our society to succeed....

which is the next point of any political or social system, you must have
every single part of that system buying into that system... think of your body
as a system, for your body to work, every single part or individual system within
your body must buy into your system to work... if your arm is doing something different
then your body, then you have a physical problem and you go to see the doctor to fix that
problem...…

so, how do we fix our current system where we don't have a buy in by our individual
members of our system?

what is the cure to solve our current political and social problem?

the only answer is being everyone into the system... to get a buy in from
everybody, they must be included and involved and they must have
a say in our current system.... otherwise, you won't get a buy in from
people and no buy in means that our system, as all systems that have only
a partial buy in, our system will bleed out energy and eventually die.....

as with any system, it must have energy to survive and thrive..
and the more people who disconnect from our current system, take
away energy from our system... if enough energy is taken from our current
system, our social or our political systems, those systems eventually run out
of gas and stop...… and so we must think of people as being part of a system..
some systems we belong to are small, the family system... two people commit into
being a system, we call that marriage, then the two grow with children.. my current
family is me, my wife and my daughter... some systems have a smaller group
and some systems have a larger group......I grew up in a large family of two parents
and there were 5 of us... at times, people would move in and then move out..
so the number of people actually living at home would change.. the system
would grow or become smaller depending upon factors....

we must make our choices given that we have many diverse and different
systems that human beings live in... we have the family system, the educational
system, the work system, we have voluntary systems like book clubs and involuntary
systems like being drafted into the Army... every single decision we make must
be made with systems in mind... every single individual and every single collective
decision we make.....our fighting about how large a tax cut or tax increase doesn't
actually answer any type of question of how it affects the various systems that
a change in taxes might affect.....not one single candidate today is talking
about systems understanding in regards to the choices we make....
and that is my reason not to accept any candidate right now....

they talk about tax cuts and budgets plan and education but they
don't tie all their babble into one coherent understanding of what
their plans means for the various systems that we inhabit....

if we eliminate student loans, what does that mean for our current
political and economic system? no one ever talks about that....

and as we are connected, every single person on planet earth is connected to
each other..... we cannot make any decision without impacting every single person
on earth..... every single decision we make individually and collectively impacts
everyone else.... that is the systems theory in play.... systems impact each other
in vast and different ways...… our thinking must not be ad hoc as it is in our
economic and political decisions made today..... we must engage in large scale,
wholesale systems thinking in every single choice we make....

and that is the failure of our political and social systems today....

they act as if they are independent and separate from each other...

they are bound and connected together in ways we can't even see...…..

to enter the future, we must begin with an understanding of our current
systems and that isn't even a thing today... we must do so if we
are going to have any success at all, as individuals, members of a group,
part of systems, world wide...… that is why those who oppose globalism have
failed to see the point... that cannot see how connected and interdependent
we are already...….. we are not fighting globalism... we are bringing the next,
logical step in human evolution which is to engage with everyone...…

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby promethean75 » Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:30 pm

Novack's essay has this: "For existentialism the universe is irrational;
for Marxism it is lawful"


any existentialist who utters the phrase 'the universe is irrational' means to say something about it sucks because he doesn't like it. mortality, natural disaster, disease, war, famine, poverty, Entertainment Tonight, etc. but all this has nothing to do with 'rationality' in the way that the existentialist wants to believe. the universe is no less 'rational' because of these things, and its only because the existentialist finds it disagreeable at times that he would say such a thing. this is why existentialism that continues to linger after its done its 19th century work - the death of god, the lack of objective values and ultimate purpose, yada yada - becomes a liability. it encourages 'wallowing', and wallowing is precisely what conservatives want/need the working classes to do to slow progress.

for a marxist, all of this process is 'lawful' in the sense that it follows a natural order... and the marxist is only describing what's happening and why it's happening. it doesn't say anything about what 'ought' to happen... because when you start making claims about what ought to happen, you start inserting values and doing philosophy. and that's what we want to avoid because when you do that, you become a mouthpiece for a particular set of prejudices and convictions that reflect more about you than the facts about the world. a philosopher loves nothing more than accidentally distorting reality on purpose.

so no, a marxist would never say 'the goddamn working class should own the means of production'... but what he will say is something like 'after an extensive analysis of historical trends and the general direction of the course of human evolution and development, there's a damn good chance the working class will end up owning the means of production.'

now people can do with that what they want - criticize it, lambaste it, condemn it, whatever - but that don't change nothing and it says more about what a particular person stands to lose than it does about the actual facts of the world. a philosopher will do back-flips to try and convince you that this should never be, but all you're hearing is a distress call from a person who's becoming more and more nervous as the world rapidly changes.

anyway yeah existentialism was a critically important stage in philosophy since it demolished damn near everything but analytical philosophy. its purpose was to assist in the deconstruction of ruling-class ideology that has persisted for over a thousand years, and clear the way for radical social and economic change. there's a pattern to all this, bro. in fact i think i bantered a bit about it in my first or second post here... the progression from platonism to enlightenment realism to structuralism to post-structuralism something something something.

really all that's left is analytical/structural marxism and nihilism. all the other nonsense has been formally usurped and exists now only in the personal memoirs of forum philosophers and independent authors coming to a bookstore shelf near you (again... and again... and again. i know, right. like give it up already).
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:51 pm

Now Pro75, I am going to answer your question? but not really answer
your question.....

I have been deep into this book by Prigogine called: Order out of chaos...
Man's new dialogue with nature...

and one of the topics he deals with is Entropy...and of course this idea
of order and chaos...but the big question he deals with is energy...…

let us do a quick review of philosophy and see what has been the deal
with philosophy....

with the "new" science of Kepler and Galileo and Newton,
we have come to learn of new vision of the universe...
a vision where motion, the movement of objects and stars
was the "Scientific" way and philosophy in some attempt to
become more "Scientific" adapted the scientific method.....

Socrates would have been rolling around in his grave had he known
this because Socrates whole point was to bring philosophy down to earth...
not to make philosophy scientific, for that was the whole movement of
philosophy before Socrates....to engage in the world scientifically
and see what that meant philosophically.....

but Socrates didn't want to have anything to do with that, he wanted
to bring philosophy "out of the heavens", not science, as was practiced
by the Pre-Socratic philosophers but about values and the soul and virtue...
Human values, not an understanding of the universe scientifically, but
philosophically....

so, when did Modern philosophy lose it way?

when it became scientific.. following the lead of Descartes
and Newton, Hobbes and Locke and Hume...…

let science do its thing and that thing is good, make no mistake,
I am not anti-science..... However I am for science being about science
and philosophy being about matters of philosophy....

there are many question of philosophy for which science cannot answer for us....

for example, science cannot answer questions of ethics, nor can science answer
questions of Aesthetics and most interestingly Epistemology.. the study of the
scope, nature and limits of human knowledge.....what did you say Kropotkin?

that science cannot answer questions of Epistemology?

Yep, no matter how big a set of Epistemology answers we get,
we cannot catalog everything... something will get left out of
the question of Epistemology...… we cannot put into a set
everything that is Epistemology.. no matter how hard we try,
something will get left out......try putting all the emotions we have
into some set or subset...no matter how many emotions you might get,
you will be missing some... that is the problem with any attempt to list
everything about a certain subject... you can never include everything....

thus all information we have is incomplete... we can never reach the
limits of human knowledge... something will be missed....

so to return to our problem.... science cannot answer certain philosophical
questions, no matter how hard we try to do so.....

so, science starting with Kepler, became about motion....
read your Galileo and it is all about motion, read Newton
and it is all about motion....a good deal of Einstein is about motion...
the theory of Relativity and the special theory is all about motion....

so, philosophy in its bid to become
scientific, became all about motion.....

and questions about motions is great for science, but the understanding of
motions doesn't answer philosophical questions...…

how is the question of virtue, a motion question?

it isn't.....but there is something that might be better suited to
answer questions of virtue scientifically....

and that is energy...…

re orientate philosophy to think of questions in terms of energy...….

ah, what the hell are you smoking Kropotkin?

see the next post....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:38 pm

we have in science certain idea's and one of those idea's
is the three laws of thermodynamics....

the three laws are basically laws of energy....

I don't care too much about the third law but the first two,
especially the second law is of great concern to me....

the first law states simply that there is X amount of energy in
the universe....that can never increase or decrease....energy moves,
but it doesn't increase or decrease....

we know this from Einstein when he made matter and energy
interchangeable.... they are different forms of the same thing
and so, that matter and energy can change form, from matter to
energy and back again.. but the amount of energy/matter doesn't
change...the overall amount in the universe is the exact same as it
was in the beginning of the universe and will be the exact same at
the end of the universe...…

that the second law is simply a comment about energy itself...
that energy spreads out.. and that spreading out is entropy.....
when energy is collected and used, it is in some form or another....

think of firewood....we have some wood.. it has X amount of energy.
it is matter and matter and energy is the same.....

so let us burn that firewood... the amount of matter/energy remains the same
after we burn that firewood.... we feel the change in terms of heat... that heat is
the same amount of energy as the firewood...there is no difference....

so what about entropy? Entropy is simply the leveling out of that energy.....

if we have a glass of hot water and then if nothing else happens, the
temperature of the glass water will slowly go down from hot to warm to room
temperature...that temperature drop is entropy... the dissipation of energy,
is entropy....I am old... just turned 61... old age is the action of entropy....

it is about the amount of energy I use... I cannot lift heavy things like
I used to.. that is entropy... I am weaker, not as strong, I cannot run as fast,
nor walk as long as I used to....even thou I still eat food and drink water
and I average around 5000 steps a day, the amount of energy available to me,
is lower then it used to be.....

ever buy a box of crackers and ate one and it was stale... that is
entropy... the box was sealed up and nothing impacted on the cracker
from the outside, but it was still stale... that is entropy at work....

I hate cleaning... left to me, our house wouldn't get clean....
but I have noticed that when we go on vacation, say, 2 weeks,
we might have left the house spotless, no dust, no mess of any kind,
and yet when we return home, the house was a dusty and smelled funny
and it wasn't as clean as when we left it... that is entropy.....the movement
from order to chaos.. by the dissipation of energy...…it takes energy to keep
a room clean and if we stop putting energy into cleaning a room, it will
get dirty.. that action of getting dirty is entropy...to keep a clean room requires
energy...to maintain order requires energy....

my wife and I will go out and happen to see young couples with children...
we have agreed to the fact that we don't have the energy to contain
children from being chaotic... to keep children in order, requires energy....

that is why we leave the raising of children to the young... they still have the
energy to maintain order.....

now any system to maintain itself requires energy... think of your body as
a system... if it is not feed, it will run out of energy and eventually die..
we must have energy in our system to be able to maintain it....

this is true of any system, be it natural, mechanical or biological...…

our biological system demands energy to maintain itself... as all biological
systems must have energy to survive....

now the forms of energy might be different between the systems, but
the basic idea is the same...for example, a car is a mechanical system...
it doesn't run on the same energy basis that a biological system needs....

a car requires gas to have energy... there is no difference between gas for
a car and food for a person or animal... it is the exact same thing..
energy.. it might take a different form, but it is still energy.....

remember Einstein, that matter and energy is the same thing....
gas as matter and food as matter is the same thing.. energy for
a system.....

and every thing, every thing is part of a system....
from our bodies to political systems to mechanical systems
such as cars and solar systems as our solar system is a system....

now look up system in the dictionary: a system is a set of rules,
an arrangement of things, or a group of related things that work toward
a common goal.. an example of a system are the laws and procedures of
a democratic government.. an example of a system is all the organs that work
together for digestion....

so, as we all, every single bit of matter or energy is part of a system,
then the trick is to understand systems as philosophy...…

so how is virtue, as an aspect of an system, how does virtue work?

that is a philosophical question.... what is the relationship
between virtue and any discussion of systems? how does virtue
work in regards to a political system? or how does virtue work in
regards to an economic system? we cannot take advantage of virtue
in regards to a mechanical system because virtue has no relationship
to any mechanical system such as cars... we cannot connect virtue
to mechanical systems nor can we connect virtue to our solar system..
it simply doesn't work....

but can we connect virtue to biological systems as the human body?

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:06 pm

let us try this....

can we measure the amount of energy in a system like
a sporting event?

I have both played sports and have watch sports my entire life....

and I can personally attest to the fact that in sports, as in other areas of life,
energy can play a crucial role....have you watched an exciting sporting event?

I have watch plenty of say, basketball games, my local team is the Golden State
Warriors.. they have been in the last 5 finals...over 100 plus playoff games....

and you can feel the excitement going on in the game, within the arena,
or in the bar if you are watching the game in a bar....that excitement is
a physical thing.... you can feel it...now, one might say, nonsense Kropotkin,
you can't measure the amount of excitement within an bar or an arena...

but you can feel it.. it is a physical presence...but Kropotkin,
you can't measure it you can't weigh it, you can't see how tall it is
nor can you tell much about how much energy is produce within
a game or in a bar..... NO, no, you can't and yet, it still exists...
don't fall into the trap that insist that something isn't real if
it cannot be measured or weigh or timed.. in some fashion.....

if it is not scientific, it doesn't exist.. that is simply not true....
because if that were true, then love, hope, justice, charity,
as well as the negative values of hate or anger or lust or greed
would exist either...……

a great deal of philosophy involves things that cannot be weigh or measure
or timed....how can you weigh or time, beauty or virtue?

it still exist even if you can't measure it in some fashion....

don't fall for the trap thinking if it isn't scientific, it isn't real....

business is driven by the measurement of things.. I am timed for
how long I spend with each customer and my money drawer is checked every night
to see how short I am in and people watch me on camera to see if I am standing in
the right place or if am doing something I shouldn't be, like talking to my fellow
employee's.. that is frowned upon and actively discouraged...… I am only suppose
to be working and nothing else....and in the midst of all this, where are the values?

for example, how does love fit into this? or how does any value fit into
this scientific understanding of work......

for a great deal of business comes from scientific research.....
look up Fredrick Winslow Taylor..to see the influence of science into
business....

but business has no interest in anything other then money/profits...
and it uses science to better increase money/profits....

the ultimate tool of business is the clock....time is money is a
business saying....I am timed in every aspect of my job....
from my breaks to my lunch to how long I spend with a customer...

that is science... but I am more then just science, I am a human being.....
and what does being a human being have to do with being timed?

and so we return to energy.... I am energy, for I am matter...
and matter and energy is interchangeable...…

and the energy I use at work is used to gain profits/money...
and it isn't used for anything else besides the expressed goal
of making money/profits...….

now ask yourself, is making money/profits really the best use
of what energy I have?

it depends upon the goal, now doesn't it.....

if I spend my energy on making profits/money for a company, then
I don't have any energy to make myself a better person, I don't have
any energy to create a better society, I don't have any energy to
do anything other then the creation of money/profits...…

we cannot allow the scientific understanding of the world outweigh
any other use of the world.. in other words, there is more being human
then to make money/profits...and if it isn't validated by science, then
it has no use....that idea must be removed...…

in modern day society, if it isn't measure, weighed, timed, it has no value....

we cannot waste time engaged in the pursuit of beauty or truth or justice or
hope because those things cannot be measured... that is what is the matter with
modern day society, if it cannot be measure in some fashion, it has no value....

but how does one measure love?

you can't... but according to the modern world, love has no value
because it can't be timed or weighed or measured....

and what does science do? it weighs, measures, times, put things
on a scale... so, we are a scientific world...…..

a Marxist/capitalistic world....materialistic systems that depends upon
some form of measurements, weights, times...….

so once again, how does one measure the amount of energy
that an exciting game of basketball creates in a bar or in person?

it can't be weighed or timed or measured.. so it is unimportant....

but I submit, it is the most important thing we do... what we spend our
energy on is the most important thing we do as human beings....

and I suggest that we should spend it on things that cannot be measured,
weighed, times... things like love, peace, justice, charity..

the path to becoming human isn't through measurements or timed events,
but in the path, the road itself and that cannot be measured.....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:57 pm

being and becoming.....

we are either being or we are becoming...…

I am.... or I am becoming....

the path of the human race has been the path of becoming....

from animal, like dogs, cats, cows, birds... to becoming animal/human..
where we still hold instinctual needs like sex and anger and hate....
but we can, at times, put those instincts on hold and do what we
want.... sometimes, I want to beat the crap out of the customers who
are idiots in my line... if I followed my instincts, I would...
but I rise above my instincts and.. with a great deal of effort,
I don't act upon my instinct.....In doing so, I am human and not
animal/human... for animal/human must still act upon their instincts...

to be human means to rise above instincts.. we use other means to
judge our actions.... logic, rational thought, just plain fear...
I don't beat the crap out of customers because I don't want to
explain to my wife why I was fired... that fear outweighs any other fear....

the instinct of fight or flight is an animal instinct... if we react to some action
without recourse to fight or flight, we are being human... we have risen above
just plain animal instincts.....

but we must continue the road to becoming human... we have risen above
being just an animal to being animal/human and we must continue the road
to becoming human, fully human.....

that means we rise above our instincts..... we make rational choices as to
whether we have sex or if we eat a meal or if we fight or flight...….

we pause and think.. instead of reacting instinctually....

and if we think, we quickly realize that wasting our energy on
such a meaningless concept of money/profits is dumb.....
I have spent my entire adult life working, 43 years and counting...
I have absolutely nothing to show for it outside of a bad back
and bad hips and knees that don't work anymore...…

working is a waste of my time and is a waste of your time....

there is nothing to be accomplished by working....

but Kropotkin, it puts food on your table... I can think of a half dozen
of different ways to put food on my table that doesn't demand that I
destroy my health for it.....

we are letting the routine, the habit of working, the superstition of working
determine our course of actions.... we actually haven't tried to move beyond
work as a means of putting food on our table.... we can begin by rejecting
materialism, meaning both capitalism and communism as THE political or
economic system that we can choose from... we have purposely limited our
choices to just capitalism or communism....we haven't tried to expand
our choices beyond capitalism or communism...…

we are just being and not becoming...…

to return to an earlier concept....

entropy... as noted before....if we leave a room, say the
living room alone for 2 weeks, the room will slid toward
an increased entropy state.. it will become dirtier...we must use
energy to maintain a state of clean in any room we live in.....

energy is needed to keep entropy at bay... we cannot defeat entropy...
we can hold it off, but we cannot defeat it....
eventually, the entire universe will fall into a complete state of entropy...
the amount of energy will remain the same, but the energy will become
so dispersed that it no longer can hold systems in place...….

recall that the human body is a system held together by energy....
if enough energy is dispersed away from the body, it will decompose...
we die... energy is holding the universe together... if the energy is
dispersed, then the universe itself will no longer function.....

the human question is not a question of motion as in science, but the
human question is a question of energy.....

"Upon what should I spend my energy on?"

that Kantian/Kropotkin question now gains much more
urgency if we correctly understand the role of energy in
human existence....

to maintain order in the universe, we must use a great deal of energy....

so, how does that effect the political state of affairs?

we now see the damage that IQ45 has done to the energy
state of America..... and every system is about energy....

he has taken energy away from maintaining our political system into
such useless matters as hate, fear, anger, greed, lust.....

we cannot raise enough energy to maintain our political system if
that energy is wasted upon such nonessential matters as hate, violence,
anger, lust, fear...…

that is the danger of IQ45.. he waste our energy away from the matters that
should mean something to us....

if we hate, we cannot build, for hate cannot build...
if we have anger, we cannot build, for anger cannot build
if we fear, we cannot build, for fear cannot build....

if we love, we can build, for love build energy
if we hope, we can build, for hope builds energy

I have been angry and I have been in love and I can attest to
the fact that love is an increase in energy.. hate and anger decrease energy
in people...and the only way we can build is by working with positive values
such as love and peace and justice and hope.....

what increases energy? that is what we must be working for.....

But Kropotkin, we cannot measure love or hope?

how can we build something that we cannot measure?

and that is the scientific part of our modern society...…

the materialistic aspect of modern society...…

it doesn't count if it can't be counted, or measured or weighed or timed....

you can't count or weigh or measure love....

but the path, the road to becoming human follows love....

you can't measure any part of what I say, so it becomes unimportant....

and that is the modern age in a nutshell....

next is becoming.....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby phenomenal_graffiti » Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:57 pm

The future entails 'becoming'. My question to those believing the brain creates consciousness is how do neural circuits in the brain "know" the future?

That is, how are there neural circuits in the brain capable of generating experiences of external world states that do not yet exist? For example, how are there neural circuits having the ability to form experiences of the external world that do not exist now or in the past, but will exist 5 minutes in the future, 10 minutes from now, etcetera?

It seems odd, given the immediacy of new, incoming experiences that there are neural circuits in the brain that have the future of the external world stored in them before the external world has a chance to form what the neurons are prepared before the fact to replicate.
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A: The conscious and unconscious mind of God.


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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:47 am

phenomenal_graffiti wrote:The future entails 'becoming'. My question to those believing the brain creates consciousness is how do neural circuits in the brain "know" the future?

That is, how are there neural circuits in the brain capable of generating experiences of external world states that do not yet exist? For example, how are there neural circuits having the ability to form experiences of the external world that do not exist now or in the past, but will exist 5 minutes in the future, 10 minutes from now, etcetera?

It seems odd, given the immediacy of new, incoming experiences that there are neural circuits in the brain that have the future of the external world stored in them before the external world has a chance to form what the neurons are prepared before the fact to replicate.



K: I gotta be honest, I don't have the faintest idea of what you're talking about....

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby surreptitious75 » Fri Mar 06, 2020 2:40 am

phenomenal graffiti wrote:
My question to those believing the brain creates consciousness is how do neural circuits in the brain know the future ?

That is how are there neural circuits in the brain capable of generating experiences of external world states that do not yet exist ? For example how are there neural circuits having the ability to form experiences of the external world that do not exist now or in the past but will exist 5 minutes in the future I0 minutes from now

It seems odd given the immediacy of new incoming experiences that there are neural circuits in the brain that have the future of the external world stored in them before the external world has a chance to form what the neurons are prepared before the fact to replicate

I do not think that neural circuits can actually know the future as such but they might be able to anticipate it through past experiences stored in the hippocampus
Because without some frame of reference with regard to what the future might become how could it be determined with any degree of accuracy ?
And so I would say that it is a phenomenon for which there is a rational explanation [ there always is ] but it is just not known at this point in time
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby phenomenal_graffiti » Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:32 am

That makes a sort of pseudo-sense ('pseudo" in the sense that external world neurons, as they are composed of something other than subjective experience cannot know or anticipate anything as they, not being made up of consciousness are as conscious as a brick) when it comes to their formation of the experience of the future five or ten minutes from now (although one can make the argument that the process of perception in terms of the brain copying the dispositions of the external world as it assumes "now' does not borrow from the past as past experience ceases to exist with every passing moment and the brain only receives and copies the external world as the external world forms its present in sensory terms), but past-experience-borrowing does not follow if in the future one experiences something one has never experienced before.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby surreptitious75 » Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:27 am

If the past ceases to exist with every passing moment then the future can never exist either except as an imaginary state
And so all sensory experience can therefore only occur in the present which is also in an ever changing state of existence
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby phenomenal_graffiti » Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:24 am

If the past ceases to exist with every passing moment then the future can never exist either except as an imaginary state.


Well, the subjectively experienced doppelgangers of states of the external world that no longer obtain cease to exist (in the mythology that the brain creates consciousness and that consciousness can come into and go out of existence).

The external world, meanwhile, according to the mythology that it and the objects it atomically "Play-dohs" into consists of physical energy which, according to the 1st Law of Thermodynamics cannot come into or go out of existence, must always exist and is only able to change into non-conscious, non-brain-generated forms of past, present, and future.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby promethean75 » Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:09 pm

through past experiences stored in the hippocampus


Shit I've had experiences with a hippocampus myself. 'bout twenty years ago me and a buddy drove to Greenville for some party his girlfriend was invited too. She was a student at ECU, and let me tell you... I've never seen so many fat girls in one place at one time, as I did on that campus. It was unbelievable dude.

(this fuckin guy)
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Tab » Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:47 pm

I see what you did there.

Strange, one of my favourite jokes now requires more thought about the punchline than it used to. You'll understand soon. I blame internet porn tbh. Anyway.

There was this guy, he'd been married for umpteen years and if they were honest, some of the magic had worn off. They hadn't had sex in months. One night he comes home and his wife opens the door. He looks at her in a way he hasn't for a long time. "Let's go upstairs" he says. His wife's eyes light up and she says "ok, let's go." They go into the bedroom. "Strip" he says, he's never been so masterful before. 'This is just like 50 shades of grey' she thinks as she throws off her clothes. She's naked, he comes closer. "Now, do a handstand." Channeling her highschool self she tells him to grab her legs and does a perfect handstand in front of the mirror. He walks behind her, and pushes his face between her legs. She gasps in anticipation.

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Meno_ » Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:03 pm

There was an Old Man with a beard,
Who said, "It is just as I feared!—
Two Owls and a Hen, four Larks and a Wren,
Have all built their nests in my beard.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:11 pm

I like these original takes on matters and I thank you for them....

When last seen, I was in the process of understanding
being and becoming in terms of thermodynamics....
entropy to be exact....and process is a good word to use....

being is a process as is becoming...….

and being isn't just being... we human beings because of process,
are always, always in some change or another... we aren't fixed...
physically anyway... our bodies because of processes that have existed for
billions of years, continue to change us physically...whether we are aware of
it or not... we age is one such process.... and what is aging? it is simply the
process of entropy at work in our bodies... our bodies become disordered
as we become older...and that disorder is shown by my inability to
run as fast, or to lift as much or my lack of endurance....
my body is decaying and that is entropy at work.....

we can never really just be... being is just a momentary stop in the
ever ongoing process of entropy... we are always becoming....

at some point, my body will become so disordered, that I will
naturally die of old age...... death is human entropy taken to
its logical end.....

at most, at most, we can only slow down the process of entropy...
if illness or accidents don't kill us, entropy is sure to....

so physically, human process is simply entropy working on our bodies,
making it disorder.. aging....and there is really nothing we can do about
entropy... the attempt to make us "ageless" is a futile attempt because
we cannot defeat physics. We cannot end something that is built into
the universe.... we cannot end something that is part and parcel of
the universe....there is matter.. stars, planets, comets, galaxies and entropy...
there is energy and there is entropy....

any description of the universe that doesn't include entropy isn't
really a description of the universe....

and so we return to becoming.....in human beings... physically,
becoming is really just more and more entropy,
disorder in the human being...is aging....

so when we refer to becoming in human being it cannot be
something physical because that is aging and then death...

no, becoming refers to something that we do emotionally,
psychology, mental.... it is growth that is inside of us..

when we understand human beings have gone from animals, like dogs
and cats and birds and cows, to being animal/human.. that isn't a
physical change we are referring to... the human structure hasn't changed
much in a million years... we are referring to the changes within us...
what has change internally that has allowed us to go from animal to
animal/human? we have done something other animals haven't done,
which is rise above instinct... we aren't ruled by instinct.. we can
react outside of our instincts... we have a third choice, outside of
fight or flight. and that third choice is a human choice...

and we want to continue our growth from animal to animal/human to
becoming human, fully human and that means we grow enough to
rise above instincts, all instincts...….. we make choices based not on
any instincts, such as to mate or to hold to hate but we can rise above
our instinctual nature and make our choices as human beings....
with rational, logical or even just common sense....

when we rise above instincts, that means we rise above violence,
for violence is an instinctual matter, we rise above petty bickering
about land or money or material goods or ego.....

we do what is right because it is right according to matters above instincts...
we do what is right not because our instincts told us, but because it
becomes the right thing to do....and that "right" thing to do, is
situational ethics.. and dependent upon the situation, we may
save ourselves and again, we may sacrifice ourselves....
there is no universal ethical requirement like Kant's duty....

but we can see how our understanding of matter like entropy
can lead us to make ethical choices... the universe is
engaged in entropy... we are part of the universe and thus
we too, are engaged in entropy....all that changes is the size...
we are small and we can see entropy happening to us, if we look,
every single day, whereas we cannot see within the stars and galaxies,
entropy, but it is there.. just as surely as it is within us, entropy
exists and influences the stars and planets and galaxies and the
universe...

so how are we to think about entropy and say, ethics?

the question of entropy is a question of disorder, things naturally
become disorder unless enough energy is put into the system to
maintain order....

to hold order within a system, is a question of energy being put into
that system.... as disorder is natural, entropy is natural, by doing nothing,
the disorder within that system will increase, that is the law of nature, of
entropy....to maintain a system, we must not only keep enough energy in
the system to maintain that system, but because entropy naturally
increases as time goes by, we must increase the amount of energy
that goes into a system....

a practical demonstration: your car...when we buy a new car, it needs
are basic and minimal... you put into it the right amount of gas and
the right amount of oil and watch the tire pressure.. basic stuff every
single car needs... as the car gets older, the car needs more work,
more energy, more time to keep it running.. that is entropy..
the car is aging, it is becoming more disordered....the car begins to
leak oil and doesn't work as well, despite changing parts...
the car is engaged in entropy just as we human beings engage
in entropy....at some point, even with care and new parts and
a lot of mechanical work, the car won't work as well as it did
when it was brand new..... and then at some point, the car
is so undependable that you start to think about getting rid of it....
it become so much of an time consuming, gas guzzling, money eater,
that getting rid of the car becomes the best way to save yourself
time, money, effort... that is entropy....you already know
what entropy is...…. and that there is no getting around
entropy...…

so the question of ethics in a system becomes a question of
maintaining energy in a system.. how do we keep the system
running? that is what social systems and political systems
and economic systems work on... how do we keep the system running?

and if the system is sucking up so much energy, time, money, effort,
perhaps we should think about replacing that system....

and that is where we are in regards to the economic system called
capitalism... is it worth the trouble to keep that system working?

that there comes a time in every systems life that entropy becomes
so much of a problem, that is it cheaper to dump that system then
try to keep it going, just like a car...….are we here with
not only the economic system of capitalism, but perhaps we are
also here with the political system, democracy?

has that "car" done all it can?

an understanding of where we are at, will help us engage in
some REAL dialogue about where we are and where we want to be....

Are our current systems no longer energy efficient enough to allow
them to continue on?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7701
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:29 pm

we can see this lack of energy and effort by our elections...
we only had, roughly, 57% of eligible voters vote in 2016....

just as we put energy, money, time, effort into things that
we want to save/preserve/keep.. if only slightly more then
half of all possible voters vote, then perhaps the current system
isn't worth saving?

people putting their time, money, effort, energy into things that
they want to keep, if they don't, then the answer become quite clear....

what is the solution?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7701
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

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