a new understanding of today, time and space.

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Meno_ » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:10 pm

Meno_ wrote:If it's changed you're too late.
But really it stands out almost demonically.

time .11:10 pm PST
Last edited by Meno_ on Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Meno_ » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:13 pm

It's just changed by one. (If You follow numbers)

-- -- -- --- ---- ----- ------ ------- --

and I ask, how does the transitory nature of life answer the question,
the question of the meaning of life?


Best approximation in the time allotted. Or, by reversing the flow, and see if time shortens as it travels backward (looking back), as it appears to shorten moving forward.

And if it doesent, why not, and can You change that, without loosing Your sense, mind, relationships.

Don't recommend it to every/any 1.

But, seriously, life is not only recaptured as a film, but it can be run slower, and back wards as well. Without actually demonstrating that, because the simulation will become overtly actual, try it metaphorically, so as not to appear as though individual frames and actions within form backward and obvious looking movements. That may give an inkling, and verify a lot of thinkers , first and foremost Heidegger , Heraclitus and Parmenedies before him, unwittingly skipping Husserl and don't yet ask me why.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby promethean75 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:55 pm

peter wrote:in a roundabout way, I am asking the question, did or does or will my life
have meaning?

first of all that's one of those existentialist party slogans that's responsible for getting philosophers all fucked up in the head and up all night. 'does my life have meaning' isn't even a real question. what do you mean 'does your life have meaning'? are you asking a specific question about some aspect of your life? you gotta narrow that question down some or every philosopher in a ten block radius that hears it will go nuts with it and you won't get a sensible answer from any of em.

peter wrote:and I ask, how does the transitory nature of life answer the question,
the question of the meaning of life?

well we got three possibilities. eternal life in some magical realm, total annihilation, or... and this one's my favorite... a repetition of everything over and over and over again. now there's no plausible evidence for the first option, a shit load of plausible evidence for the second option, and a little plausible evidence for the third option. the good news is, with the elimination of the first option, there's no way you can lose. so, if it's curtains after you die, you'd not be around to know it and therefore wouldn't be able to suffer it. and if there's some kind of repetition, you get to do the whole thing again, which means you'd get to talk to me again, and that alone is enough to justify a life.

but you have be ready for total oblivion. you gotta think long and hard about your death and get your head right, because it just might be a one-shot deal, peter.

meanwhile, old people should spend the last half of their life putting all their energy into their family, especially their children (if they have any). you want to try to live vicariously through them, stay close to them (unless you hate em), involve yourself in everything they do, and give your elder wisdom as guidance. you want to say things like 'no, fuck no, are you retarded, don't do that! i did that once and let me tell you... it did not work out,' and 'yes, that's a smart choice, and here's why: [insert wisdom].'

old people have a very high rank in the family, or should, and with that comes great responsibility as well as privilege. but really, at your age you're supposed to enjoy yourself. what about hobbies? got any hobbies?
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:46 pm

As noted our modern ism's and ideologies such as communism
and capitalism and Catholicism, all exist outside of our control....
we are victims of each in the fact we have no choice in the
grand movement of those ism's.... in communism, we exist
within the grand sweep of history in which we can only watch
as historical materialism, which is a broad force of history
works out our personal and collective fate, all of which is outside
of our personal ability to control...…. individually, we are victims
of these broad forces, not having any means to control or change these
forces..... the same exists for capitalism, whereas our individual fate
is determined by that "invisible hand" of broad market forces that we
have no control over... victims once again of forces outside of our control
or any ability to change...….but there are other forces outside of our control
in which we have no control over or any ability to change.... we have modern
technology.... do you have any control over all these new technologies?
who among us actually understand how our cars work or how the computer
works? Not that many.....these modern forces of technology exists
outside of our control and our ability to change.....just like those ism's
and ideologies of capitalism and communism......do you have any control
or ability to change anything that exists in our "modern" world? no, not really....
the political system has been bought and sold as our individual congressmen
and senators have been bought by big money and big business like big pharma
and the Cock brothers and the NRA.... do you have any say or influence given
the money now flowing into politics? no, of course not...…
so once again we see the average person having no control over or
any ability to change our political or economic or social structure of
the modern world...….

modern man is competently powerless to control any aspect of their lives...
we are victims of our "modern" world which has taken away any chance we
have to change, affect, direct or move people or events in the modern world...…

Now how can I personally have any meaning when I have zero control over
any aspect of my life? I cannot change or control any part of my economic,
political or social life...…… life is what happens to me.... not what I do to life....
the technology already exists to put me out of a job... we can easily have
stores with no need for cashiers or baggers.... the only thing saving me is
the fact I shall have already retired or died before the new technology
destroys an entire industry......and I have absolutely no control over this....
it will happen regardless of how I approve or disapprove or even feel about it....
it is not a question of if, it is a question of when will my job of being a cashier disappears....

and this is the modern world writ small.... events outside of my control and my
ability to affect will completely change my life and not for the better......

the large, grand scale forces that are beyond my control changing and dominating
my life without any input from me... it will just happen and there isn't a dam
thing I can do about it...…… and that is in essence, modern life..... forces changing
and impacting us without any input or response from us... it will just happen and
we can only respond to it...……….and that response will be pretty meaningless because
no one will be able to hear it in the midst and confusion of all that white noise
of society.....

so, once again, I ask, how do I find meaning in this modern age?

those broad and all encompassing forces of our modern times,
in the midst of all those forces, how do I find meaning?

forces I have no control over and forces I cannot affect...…

and we engage with these broad forces we have no control over
by wondering if someone has a "hobby"? such a irrelevant question.....
given the how unimportant our lives have become in this modern world...
can we have any meaning in the broad forces like the "invisible hand of god"
that dominate capitalism or the "historical materialism" that dominates
communism or the plan that god has for all of us to lead us to the final days
of judgment..... we are irrelevant in the midst of forces we have no say over
and we cannot control...… in the midst of that irrelevancy, how can I find meaning?

I would have better luck trying to stop the earth from circling the sun then
finding some relevancy in our modern world...….

is Voltaire right? should we just be content with taking care of our own garden
and leave the business of life to outside forces we have no say over and no
control over? is withdrawing into ourselves an answer? we see millions of
our fellow human beings have already taken that course.....
anyone who says, a pox on both houses has already withdrawn into
themselves, into their own garden...…

and in our modern, secular world, I don't see how we can find meaning in
such impersonal forces like religion or god...………

so, what is left? do we retreat into ourselves, into our fixation on
celebrity news or our passion into our own personal field of hobbies
or sports or TV or drugs or booze? so many have left the field of
battle, left the outside world for small personal goals..... which is
why millions fail to vote every election... they have given up trying to
change or influence or having a say in matters that dominate their lives.....
the impersonal forces of capitalism and bought and sold politicians
have millions of people abandoning life and retiring their own
personal garden.....

and once again I ask, how do I find meaning in the midst of all this?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:06 pm

in addition to the above, I left/forget about other forces we
have no control over, evolution, physics, biological, astronomic.. forces
of which we have no say over and no ability to control.... we cannot control
the natural forces of physics or biology or astronomy..... we cannot change
what evolution has done to us and we cannot change what is happening in
the stars and we cannot change the forces of physics...… these are just
another brick in the wall in terms of forces that we have no say over
and we cannot control...….we cannot control gravity or space or time
and we have no say or control over...……

now combine these forces with all the other forces I mentioned in the last post...…

and once again, how do I meaning given all the forces in the universe that I
have no control over and have no say over?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:52 pm

want to see how the Modern universe works where we
have no ability to control or have a voice over our "world"...
please see Kafka, "the Trial" and "the Castle" these are
excellent reminders of the modern world.....

thus offering us a way ART helps us process and understand the world....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:52 pm

we question the point of both Descartes and Kant's final
results...… for example, Descartes wanted to set the limits
of knowledge so that science could fit into the "current"
way of thinking... in other words, to make room for science
by denying faith.... which of course he didn't because he was
a Frenchman living in a time where it was dangerous to deny
faith.....but the real question lies with this question....
so we know the limits of knowledge, now what?

where does it lead us? the middle ages was the age of faith,
but where did that faith lead us? read any good history of the middle ages
and see exactly where faith lead us? The thousand plus years of the middle ages
were some of the most abysmal years in human history.... faith has little value if
the results were as terrible as the middle ages were really terrible years for human

now you can make an chicken or the egg argument for which came first,
the rise of or the rebirth of civilization or the slow loss of faith that
ended the middle ages...……..Descartes of course wrote after the middle ages
and even after the Renaissance during another age but, but the questions of
Descartes were questions that had lingered on from the middle ages...…

and the questions of Kant were also about Knowledge....what are the limits of
knowledge? but the essential question of Kant about knowledge leaves out
an important point...… this question of the limits of knowledge,
what are we suppose to do with it? what does it lead to? what it does it mean to us?

and that is the question we always need to ask, what does it lead to?
what is next? so we try to think about another period of history which
is the Enlightenment. Ok, so we are suppose to free ourselves from authority,
to dare to think for ourselves, Sapere Aude, and then what?

we have found ourselves trapped inside of the many forces of man and nature....
we are trapped inside of the force of capitalism where the "invisible hand of god",
the market forces has left us without free will or the power to act freely because
we cannot escape these market forces which dominate our lives.....

we cannot escape the forces of nature which is gravity and evolution
and the cycle of the stars and galaxies as they circle around the universe....
(of course what they circle is up for some question)

so we think for ourselves and we get an understanding of how trapped
we are in the various forces that exists...…

so now what? we cannot escape into religion or god because we
are trapped in forces also beyond our control... if god has a plan for
the universe and us, then we have choice, no free will, for no matter what
we do or say, we cannot change or control or have any say about god's plan....
Religion traps us as firmly as our ism's and ideologies trap us as does
the forces of nature trap us...….

so Kant offers us self determination as a goal and once again we must
ask, then what? as a victim of the many forces of ism's and natural
causes, my self determination which cannot affect or
control or have any say about those forces which dominate my life,
what does it matter to pretend to have self determination when
those forces of ism's and natural forces are the real factors in my life.....

the question becomes, what can I do in the face of these forces which
control my life..... what response can I make in the face of these forces?
How can I find "salvation" given the nature of these forces which control
every part of my life...… how can I be "saved"?...…

Nietzsche response was to postulate the eternal reoccurrence and the
ubermensch……..to say yes, to the forces of the universe which control me
and my life.... to find the very limited aspect of our lives and learn to
control that aspect of life...… here we find ourselves looking at morality.....
and ART as responses to the limited possibilities we have in the midst
of forces which dominate and limit our possibilities.....

so given how we are at the whim of forces beyond our control
and us not having any say in capitalism and communism and religion....

how are we to be "saved"?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:34 pm

How to be "saved"?

How to find "salvation" in our modern world?

I think we have to deal with what we know, know to be true....

I am life.... life is transitory.....I am transitory.... I will live for
a relatively short period of time and then I die... pure and simple...

my existence will be of short duration...….

but the cells, the atoms within my body, have existed since the beginning of time
and will continue to exist long after this current form of being human, my
next existence will compose of many, many different living creatures...…
as my current atoms, cells will decompose into something else and my individual
cells, atoms will take different forms, dog or cat or bird or bee or something else

we exist within forces that limit or control who we are.....
we have natural forces which limit us, gravity, evolution, chemistry...
we also have forces in ism's and ideologies that also limit us...
we are encased within such ideologies as religion, capitalism,
communism and as we are encased, we exist without any
recourse or voice in or ability to change those forces that
dominate us...…...we have no say in capitalism because
we are determined by "the invisible hand of god"
which is the market forces outside of our control and we
have no say about those market forces...…….

so, how do we understand the "now what" given
this understanding of these forces which give us no control over
or no say about them...…

we must work within the very narrow limits of what is left after
the forces that are, limit our actions...….

for example, we exist within the market forces of capitalism which
don't allow us much room for freedom or action given we are determined
by those market forces...….

I can say no, no to those market forces and not allow myself to be
a victim of capitalism but that leaves me to a very short and miserable
existence as I cannot survive on my own.... I cannot control my existence,
to clothe and feed and house myself outside of the forces of capitalism.....

to do so is death.... and the main rule of existence is "thou shall do whatever
it takes to survive"...…. that is a rule of evolution that has been
written into our very DNA..... the very fabric of who we are is
written by the forces of evolution.. the rules which we cannot
disobey without direct and immediate consequences.....
we must eat and we must drink water and we must sleep
and we must release body waste and we must have contact
with other human beings.... these rules, these forces of evolution,
we must obey them... we have no choice.....so can I be "saved"
from these rules or commands of evolution? no, we cannot change
these rules from the force of evolution...……. so, to be able to
understand what is possible in regards to being "saved"
from the forces that dominate our lives, we must also understand
what we can or cannot change......

I am a transitory being who has to follow certain forces, the force of
gravity.. I cannot change as I cannot change the rules of evolution...
I am forced by these other forces to have limited ability to change..
I cannot change my need to eat as I cannot change the force of
gravity..... so what can I change?

these forces which dictate what are our possible actions or reactions,
what can we have control over or have any say about in regards to these

we cannot change the natural forces that dictate who we are, gravity and
evolution and the circling of the stars..... but we can change the ism's
and ideologies that dictate our lives but I cannot change those isms' and
ideologies by myself... that is the next lesson to be learned.... the forces that
dictate or dominate like capitalism and communism and religion, I cannot
change or have any say over them as one solitary individual...…

it takes millions of people to effect change in those forces like
capitalism or communism...….or religion...……….

as individual people we cannot change the forces of the world that
hold us hostage... but we can try to convince millions of others to
change.... and therein lies another possibility to be "saved"....

the coordination of millions of people... we can be "saved" with the
collective actions of millions in changing those ism's and ideologies
that have us having no say or control in our lives...…..

now I am the first to admit that what I have offered has
many difficulties.... but that is the point of being saved...if it
was easy, everyone would do it...…….

so how are we to be "saved" from the forces which dominate our lives?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:49 pm

let us take a deeper, more in depth look at a particular
ism.... capitalism...……

I have already noted that capitalism negates, promotes nihilism
because it negates humans and their values in the pursuit of profits....

now let us look at this new picture of capitalism that I have presented....

we have no say or cannot affect capitalism because capitalism is about
those market forces "the hand of god" and these market forces determines
our fate, not our own actions... the market forces can "determine"
or decide that I am no longer useful as a checker, the CEO then
based on market forces, the loss of profits, decides to downsize
the number of people employed by the business.... the CEO reduces
operating costs which is "dictated" by market forces..... this reduction
is purely done by "market forces".. impersonal forces over which I have
no control over, I have no say over, and I cannot affect..... I can call this
nihilism because it negates human beings and their values based on
forces I have no control over and have no say over...…

we see that capitalism is, in its very nature, nihilistic.....
if we have no say over something and have no control over
something and cannot affect it, it is by its very nature, nihilistic....

so let us continue this...… let us take this notion of religion....

we have, by common consent, god and god is supposed to
have a plan... the second coming is part of the plan and
the apocalypse is also part of this plan... a plan in which we
have no say over and no control over and we cannot affect it.....
all we can do is say, yes or no, to some belief in god and jesus…
and by doing so, we are "saved".....if this is true, then it is irrelevant
what I do or think or say.. the second coming is a-coming and the
apocalypse is a-coming...……. and if I have no say over and cannot
change it, it negates anything I say or do...because what I say or do,
is irrelevant...……. I am negated and anything that negates or devalues
human beings and their values is nihilistic....

so religion negates me and my values..... as does capitalism...
as does communism as does any ism or ideology that I cannot control
or affect or have any say over...……

so, as I always say, now what?

now what?


"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:56 pm

one of the noticeable things about life is the ways
we exist in conflict.... I will give some small examples which
can be extended to large things.... I may want to have lunch at a pizza place
and my wife wants to have lunch at an sushi place.... as we have been together
for over 25 years, we can easily resolved this conflict in the usual way,
we go to the sushi place, ummmmmmmmm…yah.....anyway...

not all conflicts are so easily handled.... one person wants, desires, something
and another person wants or desires something else and we have some conflict over
whose desires and wants gets met...…..this is the very nature of human conflict.....
one person/group/nation wants or desires something and another person/group/nation
either has it but doesn't want to give it up or their wants and desires clash in some

the very essence of conflict lies within those inner wants and needs and desires
that the human beings are attempting to fulfill in some manner or fashion.....

the fulfillment of wants/needs/desires is the basis of conflict...…. so to avoid
conflict, do we attempt to follow ascetic and deny and reign in our wants
and desires and needs? that path is a very attractive route, but has it succeeded?

I would say no, if you read the accounts of the ascetics of the Medieval period who
went into the desert and tried to control their urges, they suffered
and had conflicts within themselves during their entire ascetic journey.....

even the Buddha tried the ascetic route and turned away from it as being
unsuccessful...… the entire Christian philosophy centers itself around
this idea of asceticism, of denying oneself the pleasures of the flesh.....
and you cannot call this call to asceticism by any means to be successful....

so, the answer seems to lie in another fashion... how do we limit conflicts
by somehow handling our wants, needs or desires?

as I have gotten older, I have found myself in less conflict with others because
my wants and desires and needs have grown less...… the passion of youth is
far less in me as I have grown older and with less passion comes less conflict....

but I certainly cannot expect the fire and fury of youth to be contained by any
such lessening of those passions...… so, perhaps the answer is correctly
given by Nietzsche...…….. we spend our youth fulfilling our passions, we
quench our fires and passion in our youth by answering our wants and desires
and needs...………….the Greeks found this to be an answer in their Dionysian
rites.....the set program of holidays in which the people found release in
Dionysian or the excessive and out of control actions of the people...…..
you find release and you return to being in control.....and being in control
is Apollonian... which is harmony, being in control, math and science,
we see in this dichotomy a possible solution to our problem of how do
we solve this question of conflict...………

human beings have energy and the key question, and perhaps the most
important question of being human, is this, how do we engage
in our energy? upon what do we use this energy?..... how do we engage
in our energy which is found in wants/needs/desires among other places?

as I have gotten older, I have less energy and thus the reason I cause
less conflict is I have less energy...… but we cannot expect people to
voluntarily lessen or remove that energy... we need that energy as
a people, as a society, as a nation...… the question becomes, where
do we direct that energy? it could be said that war was created so that
society can direct that energy into useful and beneficial ways for society...…

that energy of fire and passion that drives people must be dwelt with in
some fashion and turning it into an a self-denial or asceticism will not
work as evidenced by the many who have traveled down that path.....

if we find an answer to this question, we find the answer to this question
of how do we handle conflicts.

or to answer this another way, the Christian solution to conflicts
by asceticism cannot work..... so we reject the Christian solution
and try to find another solution...…….

this question of conflict resolution is a critical one in our modern day
and age...…………..

and what is the answer?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
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