a new understanding of today, time and space.

This is the main board for discussing philosophy - formal, informal and in between.

Moderator: Only_Humean

Forum rules
Forum Philosophy

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:54 pm

URUZ wrote:all late night funny men agree: orange man bad

K: ummmm, limited use of words, no imagination, can barely communicate,
lack of education, low IQ...……….........must be an IQ45 follower or perhaps,
perhaps.... Donald, is that you? Does the orange monkey actually grace our
little site? Inquiring minds want to know? Upon second thought, naw,
IQ45 only goes to websites with lots of pictures... easier to "read"
as he has along with his followers, very limited reading capabilities.

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:45 pm

So yesterday was hell, 8 hours of hell.
And I heard lots of stories about how people were rushing
around trying to get this item or that item for Thanksgiving
and at no point, did I hear anybody actually make a comment
about giving thanks. It was about finding a certain type of stuffing
or why we didn't have a certain item and they would have to go
to another store to get that item and where they were going to
eat and who was coming.

Our holidays are simply excuses for more materialism buying
crap for our real religion, consumption. We simple exist to
consume food or drink or we buy crap like big screen TV'S
hoping for a low price, a "doorbuster". '

In all this running around and our rampant materialism,
we have forgotten us. We don't think about who we are
as human beings or who we are as a species.
Our holidays are specifically built to prevent us from
any sort of contemplation of our selves and our souls.
Not that people need an excuse to avoid thinking about
who they are... for the most part people go out of their
way to avoid thinking about who they are and what are
their possibilities. We go out of our way to avoid thinking
about the nature of who we are and most people are quite
ok with that...……

but ask yourself this? are you happy or satisfied or at peace
with yourself? Or are you agitated or slightly dissatisfied or
feeling alienated from society or yourself? I would suggest if
people actually thought about it, took the time to engage
in honest thinking about themselves or as the man said,
"taking stock"... I wonder how most people would react if they
actually had any sense of how dissociated they really are from
who they are what are our their possibilities. We actively engage
in avoided any sort of understanding of our selves. We engage in
mindless actions that help us avoid any real understanding of who
we are...………

think about it this way, think of how we eat junk food. Junk food
is mindless, empty calories, that doesn't sustain us and has no nutritional
value of any kind. It is as healthy to eat the carboard box as it to eat
the junk food we consume inside the box. Most people given a choice
will eat junk food instead of taking the time to consume real food,
nutritional food. In our thinking we do the exact same thing,
we think about, in a sense, junk food instead of thinking about
nutritional thoughts which are thoughts about who we are
and what are our possibilities. Our thinking corresponds
to our eating habits. we eat junk and we think junk...
instead of eating healthy or thinking healthy...….

We understand the computer belief that says,
Garbage in.. Garbage out..... and so we go even further
back and think about what we read or our movies we watch or
what magazines we read.... if we put garbage into our heads,
all that come out is garbage. If we engage in an honest understanding
of the world instead of engaging in our bad faith or false understanding
of the world, we would be putting into our minds.. good things instead
of garbage. things that nurture our souls, things that feed our souls,
things of value..... and now we understand why people read such
enlightening and food for thought books like philosophy books
and fiction that feeds our soul like Tolstoy and Goethe
and Dostoevsky and poetry like Whitman and Dante...…
Our reading habits feed our souls with nutritional thinking
and not crap...….

Your soul demands to be feed just like the body and we can either
feed the soul junk food like the junk food of our modern wasteland
of crap on TV or ever recycled movies like superhero's movies.
Or, or you can begin to feed the soul real food, real nutritional
value for your soul by reading poetry or great literature or
philosophers like Nietzsche that force us to reexamine
our values and the fact that we are not a fixed, set beings,
that we are always, always in the process of becoming,
going to something and our readings, our healthy food for the soul,
gives us a sense of what we can become, what are our possibilities?
Art is food for our soul and letting us know what possibilities we can
achieve because we are always in the state of becoming, the question is,
what are we becoming, are we becoming more human? given rise to
the higher values that we human can aspire to or going down to
the lower values that are possible for human beings?
and by our "eating" nutritional value matter that engages
our mind, our soul, we can better begin to see who we are
and what is possible for us...… the battle as always is
to become more human, to overcome and to know ourselves
and become who we are. And the books and literature
and movies we read and watch, give us our understanding
of who we are..... garbage in...………. garbage out.....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:40 pm

Garbage in, Garbage out... this thought can drive much
of how we view the world...….

in this idea of thought as food, we can also use behavior
as food we offer up to people....I am a parent and the way
I "feed" my child is very much part of the Garbage in garbage out,
viewpoint. If I offer up to my child garbage, behavior or words or
actions that is garbage, I demean or attack her in some way, or
if I am intolerant or ignorant or show her bigotry, that is in some
fashion idea's as food for her, garbage in and as that is the only food
she knows, we get her to do garbage out..... think of our behavior
and actions and words, as food for other people, and if we give them
garbage then its garbage in and we can only expect garbage out from them.
This is why we practice tolerance and attack bigotry and hate and anger,
for these hateful idea's are food being offered up to people. Hate
and anger and greed and lust and bigotry and intolerance is food offered
up to people and if all we show them is these lower animal instincts,
then we have garbage in and people can only offer up garbage out.

Our actions and words, and behavior are a type of food and
we can offer up junk food in such actions and words and behavior
as greed and anger and lust and hate.... these are junk foods of idea's...
we must offer to people real food, real nutritional "food" and that we can
do by offering up to people with our thoughts as food. If we offer up
tolerance and openness and kindness and love, think of those as thoughts
as food and those "foods" are like healthy food, nutritional food for people
to engage with. If we offer up junk food like hate and anger and fear
and greed, we offer people junk food that has no nutritional value.

Garbage in, garbage out...….. if we treat people badly that is garbage
food we send to people.... but we treat people well and with love and kindness.
that is food we send to people, nutritional food....

That is why we must reject IQ45 and his followers food of hate and
violence and greed and lust and anger... it is garbage food that doesn't offer
us anything of nutritional value and our souls, our inner needs must be feed
with nutritional values of love, hope, peace, kindness...… garbage in...….

and if are souls are feed with nutritional food of kindness and love and peace,
and our souls will grow up to be healthy and alert and be full of love...
and that is the state our souls should be in. But we cannot have healthy souls
if we only allow crap like hate and anger and lust to be our only food for
our souls. That is the value of literature and art and philosophy...
they are food for the soul and they are nutritional food and they
allow us to grow up to be big and strong, healthy individuals.
Just like heathy food like fruits and vegetables help us grow
strong and healthy bodies. The principle is exactly the same...
the food we put inside of us determines our later health
and we must receive healthy food, both for our soul and our bodies.

We can change the food we offer up to people......both in actions
and in thoughts and in behavior.... garbage in... garbage out.....
and in our offering up healthy "food" for our souls as well as our
bodies, we are engaging in striving for strong, healthy bodies,
in ourselves and, AND in others...…. our actions, our behavior is
just food for thought.

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:01 am

Garbage in... Garbage out.... in regards to nihilism.

We have to understand the flowing nature of GI. GO... Garbage in.... GI
Garbage out...... GO...….

GI.. GO... and we sow the seed of GI and GO as it flows from
human to human. We put out Garbage... hate and anger and greed
and lust and that becomes the Garbage in that people get...
and then they release their Garbage out which flows to someone else
and they take in GI and then they release GO. This flow is what makes
our actions and words so important. Our words and actions don't just stop
when we put them out as GO and then those same words and actions become
GI for someone who then passes it on as GI... GO.....

Now we understand the next step of our equation which is nihilism.
If we pass on our current nihilism that becomes GI... GO...
for example, we know that business, corporations and the business
community strives for and try's to gain profits/money... it is the cost
they are willing to occur that is damaging to people.... If those
business and corporations practice as they must practice, nihilism, which is
the negation of human beings and their values..... That nihilism is another form
of GI.. GO.... We see that nihilism as GI.. GO... and we are affected by it and
if our basic dogma and ism's and habits and prejudices and superstitions
also are the practice of nihilism, then we get as GI nihilism and that is
supported by the inherited values of our childhood indoctrinations...
this becomes an eco chamber where our childhood taught indoctrinations
of nihilism are reflected back at us by the GI..GO of the economic
and political systems of our day which also practices nihilism.

We see reflections of our childhood indoctrinations in our adulthood
which looks like conformation of our values but in reality is nothing more
then the GI..GO of nihilism as practiced by our economic and political system.

GI..GO of the type practiced by our modern corporations and media and
official state policy and the culture leads one to the nihilism as practice
by our modern corporations and media and state policy and the culture.
As the GI... GO circulates about from person to person to group to group
and at every stop the GI..GO may or may not confirm a person's
already formed indoctrinations which may have or may not have
been overcome and begins the process of becoming who you are...…..

I would suggest that the process of GI.. GO begins in our
childhood indoctrinations which is the garbage we hear as children
that passes as knowledge of the "reality" of our universe and our
place in that universe...…….

The ever flowing GI.. GO is one of the "certainties" of life...
we ever have GI at which point we decide if it is worth anything,
then we may or not pass that garbage out to others...….this becomes
the value of education... it can help us decide if some garbage is really
garbage or is it valuable information which can help us become better
people in our society...….

so what is the point is we can decide what we put out into the universe,
be it useful or be it garbage and by making intelligent, smart choices,
we can put out solid, important, valuable information instead of garbage
for the use of people and most likely those people will be friends or family
or co-workers.. people we interact with everyday. we must become aware
of what GI.. and GO we spread every single day. For our GI..GO will
flow a long ways in its journey as it passes from person to person....
and depending on the person GI.. GO passes to, it might help people
or it might hurt people.... if we pass as GI..GO the nihilism
of our age, we will be hurting people as we pass on the nihilism
of our age which is the negation of human beings and their values...….

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:47 pm

as mentioned last time, GI. GO flows from generation
to generation as the myths, habits, prejudices, superstitions
of our childhood indoctrinations. I am wondering about
one aspect of it. We have a word for the negative aspect
of GI. GO. and garbage is really an excellent word for the
negative crap that we use in in GI... GO.....

But I note that I don't have a positive word... In other words,
I can use garbage as a negative term for the message we pass
from one person to another person, from parent to child, from
the media to a person, from the state to individuals, any time
we negate another with a negative message, garbage is an excellent
word but I have no word for a positive message one gives another.

Not GI... GO but what word does one use to describe a good message
to another? Not garbage because that is the negative, but what word
would one use to describe a positive message?

In that very point lies our very failure. We don't even have a word for
a positive uplifting message outside of a religious context... gospel......

I like the word gospel... let us strip it of its religious context and
make the word gospel be the positive message we offer up instead
of the negative words, the garbage, we offer up to people...........

I offer up a message of the gospel of a positive message of mankind.
We shouldn't engage in the message of nihilism, of GI.. GO....
but we should engage in the message of the positive...….

the gospel as it were.....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:40 pm

As noted before, life is a series of equations,
Life = death...……… is one example.
so in life = death... we cannot have too much on
either side of the equation. to much life on the one
side or too much death on the other side is bad.
the equation must roughly match...…. Now is life itself
an equation and not just the process within life being
an equation, I don' know...…

The amount of rationality within life must match the
illogical aspect of life........so if one side of the equation
becomes too much, it throws the entire equation off.

r = irr rationality = illogical

the problems in society are when the equation is thrown off by
too much of something on one side of the equation.......

In other words, the moderation within society creates
a better balance within the equations of life.... to extreme
on any one side creates an inbalance and that threatens the equation....

Even our process of childhood indoctrinations has a balance.....
the garbage we are feed as children must be balance with
our growth as human beings which is a process of
becoming who we are by becoming aware of those childhood
indoctrinations.....and overcoming them........ this is an equation......

the garbage we are taught is balanced by our learning experiences
which balance out the childhood nonsense...……..

Once we overcome our childhood indoctrinations, we create
a new balance, a new equation.... and that is what being
an adult is.... just creating new balances or new equations...…..

The balance in our lives or the equation means we cannot go to one
extreme or another...…..we cannot upset the balance of our lives
with extremism of drugs or booze or actions or even thought...…
to create a balance with these extremes is hard because the balance
must come from become more extreme on the other side of the equation...…

booze = sobriety...….. notice the spacing between them...…
the equation to be equal must be spaced equally...….
the extremism of one side forces extremism of the other side
to balance the equation...………..

if liberals = conservatives here...….. to balance the equation,
liberals must move further away from the equation sign.....
so liberals must become more extreme to balance the equation....
Liberals = conservatives......
instead of where the equation should really be....
Liberals = conservatives...……. both in the middle, nothing on
the extreme edges.....

right now it is the conservatives that are on the extreme, throwing
the equation off balance...……..

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:55 pm

What is morality?
What are ethics?
How are we suppose to act/behave with our fellow human being?

One notion is the notion that the law is what we are suppose to follow...
Whatever is the law is the correct way to act/behave...…

But that Truism means that if slavery is the law, then slavery is the correct
way to behave/act. Then if the law is the final criteria, then all sorts
of acts/behavior is allowed... for in the history of human beings,
all sorts of behavior was legal and justified..... The concentration camps
of Hitler was legal, the forced sterilization of human beings with "defects"
was legal, the banning of marriage between white's and black's was legal
and in fact, was legal until 1967 in Virginia... during my lifetime.....
the Jim Crow laws of the deep south was also legal in my lifetime....

You cannot justify the legality of the law with morality or ethics because
the law quite often is used to enforce unethical and immoral actions.

For example, today the laws are used to justify the murder of citizens
of this country by police officers. Murder is allowed by the law, our law.

You cannot use the law as some basis for a morality, for an ethics...…

This is an example of GI. GO..... we give lip service to the idea of
morality, justice with an example of how the law is the basis of
morals or ethics, when in fact, we cannot use the law as an basis
of morality or ethics.

So upon what basis should we use to have morality/ethics?

Religion? We have many who claim that America is a "Christian"
country and yet, and yet, we have many who don't even offer up
lip service to "Christian ideals" anymore...…… We had an fox news
type, her name was Tomi Lahren, saying her that watching
migrants getting hit by tear gas was the "highlight" of her
Thanksgiving weekend.. and I am sure Mrs. Lehren considers
herself a "Christian" and yet, her views, not by any standard
given in the bible, can be considered to be a "Christian".

This double standard, this dichotomy, this contradiction between
one's stated views and one's action are the result of what I have
called... GI.. GO...…

The garbage in, is the myths, superstitions, biases, prejudices
of family, state, church, media of childhood indoctrinations...
and without any attempt to overcome that GI, leaves us with the GO
the garbage out of believing on thanksgiving weekend that
tear gassing innocent women and children can "make" a weekend.

Mrs. Lerhren is just another example, of which one can create
"ad nauseam" from conservatives. In fact, if ask for a definition
of a conservative, one could, with ample justification,
simple say this, "A conservative is one who practices a double standard".

and the basis of their double standard is GI, GO.
They haven't been able to or are unable to free themselves
of the garbage that was their childhood indoctrinations.

As to the answer to the question, what is the basis of morality if
it isn't the laws, can never be answered by an conservative because
they are too tied into their unacknowledged and unexamined
belief system. They hold to their GI, GO without any doubt or
understanding of what it means to hold onto the unexamined

The conservative lacks the courage for an attack upon their
belief system, no, they pride themselves upon their courage of
their beliefs and therein lies their failure.

So upon what basis should our morality, our ethics be based on,
if not religion or, or the law?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:56 pm

If we are to "correctly" understand ethics/morality,
we should better understand what that means.

What is ethics/morality?

Ethics: the moral principles that govern a person's
behavior or the conducting of an activity.

2. the branch of knowledge that deals with moral principles.

Morality: principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong
or good behavior and bad behavior.

2. a particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially
one held by a specified person or society.

So, what is the basic principles of the U.S?
What are the morals, principles, of the U.S?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that
all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their
creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these
are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"...

Think of the declaration of Independence as a mission statement
for America. How far have we fallen from our basic mission statement
is quite clear upon even a basic examination of what is happening
today in America. That America has attack people, men, women
and children without any regard to the understanding that "all men
are created equal" that means just that "all men are equal" even
if they are not citizens of this country...…… For the fact is, that
to discriminate because one is not a citizen of this country flies
in the face of the mission statement of our founding fathers.

But one might argue that the founding fathers by using the words,
"all men" have discriminated against women and minorties and
I agree with that...... we have expanded the definition of "all men"
to mean "all human beings" for we cannot in good conscience,
or without being conservative, having a double standard,
exclude those like women or minorities or those of color.

If we exclude people based on nationality, then we are not
following the declaration of independence, for we are not
following the part that says, "all men are created equal".

It doesn't say, "all men are created equal as long as they are
citizens of this country" no, it says, "all men are created equal"
and we have expanded that to include "all human beings"

To practice, as the conservative practices a "double standard",
is not a very useful method of ethics/morality or law.
For it cannot be made universal, this selective use of
a "double standard". For it can be used to justify anything,
and that is a "relative" standard. Something conservatives
abhor and yet, they cling to it like drowning men cling
to a lift preserver.

If we are to engage in situational ethics, as the conservative
practices it, but refuses to acknowledge, then we must
understand what it means to practice situational ethics.

It is quite simple, the situation dictates the ethics.
but does that mean that there is no method or means
to ground ethics or morality as a "universal" or "sociality"
standard of behavior?

Does it mean we have an "individual" ethics but not
a society ethics? Can a society have "universal" ethics, morality?
Because situational ethics would suggest that a "universal"
or "societal" ethics is not possible.

Perhaps I am looking at this the wrong way....

Let us return to the idea of the equation.
we have an equation that must
equal on both sides of the equation. I have used
this as an example, life = death...…… this equation
must equal. if we have too much life on one side, then
life must suffer because we cannot, we do not enough
resources to be able to give individuals the "right to life,
liberty and the pursuit of happiness". If death becomes
too much on the equation then we threaten society with extinction.

the equation should be roughly even for it to work.

if our equation is this..... Justice/ equality = a society worth living in...…
then we must make justice/equality as our goal.....
so we must make our laws, our justice as being equal for everyone.
The further away from justice/equality our society gets, the less
a society is worth living in.

So ethics/morality is really the attempt to create justice/equality, not
only in legal form but in all aspects of society. So ethics/morality is
just another means of pursuing equality in all aspects of our life,
be it individually or collectively.

this is just one means of attempting to bring ethics/morality beyond
simple situational ethics. Ethics is the attempt to have justice/equality
in all aspects of our lives.

So to return to our definition of ethics/morality.

Ethics: Moral principles that govern a person's behavior or the conducting
of an activity" two: the branch of knowledge that deals with moral principles.

Morality: Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong
or good behavior and bad behavior. Two: a particular system of values
and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or

We can use justice/equality as a means to bring a system of values
or principles of conduct in regards to our behavior.

The answer to the question of ethics/morality is, is this just/equal
to all persons involved? The question of ethics is the question of
being just/equal to all persons involved.

So, a policeman who kills an innocent person, is that policeperson
being just/equal, to that person killed? No, quite clearly not.
For the person being killed is not being treated equally and for justice
to be justice, it must be equal. Equal treatment for everyone is justice.
so discrimination is not justice for it is unequal in its treatment,
and intolerance is not justice for it is unequal in its treatment
and bigotry is not justice for it is unequal in its treatment.

We can now see what our ethics and morality should be...…
it must be equal in its treatment of both individuals and
and any group of people within a society. Unequal treatment is
injustice for it is unequal in its treatment of people and justice
is the equality of treatment of people.

We have a system of ethics/morality...…

what is your system of ethics/morality?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:49 pm

If we accept the idea of Justice being equality,
and we then must practice justice as equality,
the practice of justice must be applied equally
to all aspects of society including the economic.

The inequality of capitalism is clear to anyone who
has thought about capitalism from the original and
best critic of capitalism who is Karl Marx to today.

we must practice justice/equality in all area's of our life
and the economic is just another area of our life which
demands justice/equality.

Now many defend capitalism as a economic system because
it is "blind" in its operation. But capitalism is about choices
and no one, absolutely no one "chooses" to be poor.
It is not a choice that millions of American's live week to week,
from paycheck to paycheck. But to blame the "system" is
also a failed tactic because the choices made for capitalism
is strictly about profits/money.... which is the process of
negation of human beings and their values.

The pursuit of capitalism is the pursuit of nihilism of
human beings and their values. Nihilism is the negation of
humans and their values. The executive make "choices"
which are nihilistic because they negate human beings and their values
in favor of profits/money.

To practice economic justice requires that people are treated
equally economically, and to do as executives do and
favor profits over people is nihilistic and not, not justice for
the favoritism of profits is the act of someone who is
using the system to economically favor themselves over
others. The executive/CEO is acting in their own best interest,
trying to accumulate profits/money at the expense of the workers
is not only nihilistic but unjust, unequal. It is treating people
differently to maintain one's own profit margin. Economic injustice
is no different then political injustice and for the same reasons.
and social injustice is no different then political or economic

Justice is equality regardless of the system that is in question and
anyone who favors their own situation over others is practicing
being unjust.

the real question is not about what is justice, but
the real question is about how far we intend to
engage in justice. Should we just practice justice only
in regards to the political or should we engage in justice/equality
in ALL aspects of our life. Just how far should we carry this
concept of justice? Should we practice justice/equality in
every area of our live or should we limit justice to the
political? and not to the economic and social and from
the individual to the collective?

How far are you willing to carry justice?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:30 pm

one word I have avoided and the one subject I have
avoided is ambiguity.

Ambiguity: the quality of being open to more then
one interpretation; inexactness.

Is there more then one meaning to words like
nihlism and justice? Of course, that is the point
of discussing such words because they are ambigious
in their meaning. Justice can have more then one meaning just
as nihilism can have more then one meaning. Must my interpretation
of these words like justice and nihilism be the correct one?
The answer is obviously no, there can be many different
versions of these words as well as other words we use commonly.

But the garbage in, garbage out theory suggests,
that the garbage in that we get in our childhood indoctrinations
influence, perhaps even dictate our understanding of words like
justice and nihilism. The different understanding of words like
justice and nihilism come from the garbage in that we have received
instead of our reevaluation of what justice means to us or what
nihilism might mean to us as we overcome those childhood indoctrinations.

Then by our overcoming, we can see, perhaps, that my understanding of
the word, justice and the word, nihilism, might be right? maybe?

But until we experience the overcoming, the Zen of our existence,
we cannot be sure what the word justice or nihilism may or may not
mean in our current time frame...…..for as we grow and evolve
from baby to toddler to child to young adult to adult to middle age
to senior citizen, our understanding of words also changes. What seems
to be radical, changes as we age. What seems to be radical at 40 is not
radical at 18 or 21 and might seem incredible radical at age 59...….
the exact same idea or notion changes as we age..... suggesting that
it is not the idea or the notion that changes, but us...……..

so what is justice at age 20 maybe or may not be justice at
age 40 or justice at 60. This evolution of our understanding
of the ideas that we have in our life is a natural changing of our
understanding of idea's like justice or nihilism, this is another
reason that we have such a tough time trying to pin down
idea's like justice or nihilism. Those idea's change as we age.

But Kropotkin, you are not making anything certain...…
your concepts change with the wind.... yep, and that
is an answer right there. there is no certainty and any
attempt to gain certainty is doomed to failure.

But if we cannot gain certainty, then what are we trying to do?
exactly, what are we trying to do?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:46 pm

Part of the "modern" failure has come about because
we haven't given any thought to what we want to accomplish
or what ought we accomplish or what should we accomplish,
not just as individuals, but as a society or a state.

What is our goal? Simple enough question, what is our
overall human goal? What kind of people are we now and
what kind of people do we want to be or should be in the future?

This failure to project our possibilities is not just a political
failure, but an economic failure and a social failure.

Yesterday we were....
today we are.....
tomorrow we will be.....

Simple enough and yet few if any give any thought to what happens after today.

Now individually we might have goals like being able to retire at age 60,
( I fucking wish I could retire at 60, but alas, I shall be working until I'm 90)
But what goals should we accomplish as a people? Should we work toward
abolishing poverty? Should we work toward colonizing the stars? Should we
work toward world peace? I say yes. We can and we ought to work on all three
goals. So what is stopping us? a failure to truly understand what human beings
are and what we could be.....

As I have stated before, I think the Buddha is wrong in making suffering
the primary instinct or primary value in the world....
for the Buddha, Life is suffering....

and the Buddha thought that suffering was caused by our attachments. We are attached
to people, things like money, feelings/emotions.... and the Buddha thought
that by ending our attachments, we can gain freedom. If we stop our desires and
cravings, we can become enlighten and end the cycle of suffering that is otherwise
inherent in life. This philosophy is one where we can see where we are now
and where we need to be in the future. How do we become enlightened is the goal.
So all our actions and thoughts are in this future event of becoming enlightened.

And this is what we need both individually and collectively, a goal in which
we can see the past, of what we were, and the present, of what we are,
and the future, of what we will be and how do we achieve our future goal
of what will be...….

the means to achieve our future goal is in the political and economic
and social realm. We achieve our goals by using our political, economic
and social structures, institutions, organizations as our means of creating
the space needed for us to achieve our goals. We achieve our goals because
the political, economic and social institutions and organizations we have,
have freed us from enough burdens to allows us to achieve our goals....
for example, because the state takes care of the roads, individually we don't have to,
and that create for us, time to engage in our own needs. Because the state
educates our children, we don't have to and thus we have time to accomplish other
tasks. Our political, economic and social institutions give us time and space to achieve
our own goals. We do not serve the institutions or organizations, they exists
to serve us and this is important to note... they serve us and we and they ought
to remember that. Institutions like the police departments and the educational
system are there to serve us, not us to serve them and the same for the political,
economic and social institutions of our modern era, they exist to serve us.

governments fulfill a basic and essential function of keeping the system running,
so we can accomplish other task. so when we decide upon a goal, that goal is
about us accomplishing other task with the assistance of the institutions and
bureaucracy of the government... note I said with the assistance of, not
as below the institutions but in command of the institutions/bureaucracies.

"We the people in order to form a more perfect union"

We the people, and we the people are in charge and we are in charge
of the government and we are in charge of the institutions and bureaucracies
of the government. The government and the institutions and bureaucracies work
for us.... simple as that.

So what goal should "we the people" engage with that will benefit us
and improve us going into the future?

We can begin with education...…. we have a failed educational system
and that failure lies with the fact, that education today is about
job training. Our entire educational system is about training workers,
about turning children and young adults into workers. It is about
marketplace values when education should be about the questions
of the nature of the human being. We should not train people to become
workers, we should educate people to become human beings. The goal is
not to work for 40 years to make someone else wealthy inside a rigged
system, no, the goal should be to help people to learn how to doubt
and to begin the process of understanding who we are.

Our educational system is misguided at best and dangerous at worse,
because our educational system exists to train people in job skills, whereas
we should be educating people in how to become human. Jobs skills
shouldn't even be taught. the question of life is not, what job should I have
and what skills do I need to do that job, but the question of life is
who are we and what is our goals, as human beings.

You want to make a change, make that simple change.
Don't learn a job skill, instead learn to think and wonder
and doubt and discover who you are. Train to become a human
being, not a worker. and once we have become human, we
can then focus on the goal we need to create that we can
individually and collectively, reach for.

You have been miseducated, you were taught job skills and not
how to be human, what are you going to do about it?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:48 pm

In my last post, I laid out an shocking
admission, that we, you have been miseducated,
and I laid out the blame on the fact that you have
been educated with job skills instead of how to become human
or even more basic, what does it mean to be human?

How have we been miseducated?

Recall, I have on occasion, mentioned the childhood indoctrinations
of biases, prejudices, myths, superstitions, habits...…….
well those childhood indoctrinations are the early attempts
at education. The prejudices and biases we teach children
is education and now we begin to understand why it is so
important to have an reevaluation of values, of discovering
what values we were taught and then begin to overcome them,
with the end result of us becoming who we are with values
that truly represent who we are, becoming who we are...……

We are overcoming our early education by our overcoming values/
indoctrinations that we were taught as children.
I haven't called it education, I called it childhood indoctrinations but
they are the same thing. When "educated" one is told that America/Americans
hold certain values and we are told that America is about "life, liberty,
and the pursuit of happiness" or that America is about "truth, justice and
the American way of life" Those are values that we are suppose to embrace
and follow.... but what if, what if those values are false values or that
we have a contradiction between what we preach and what we act upon.....
the "true Christian" today says, don't follow my actions, follow my words...
for my actions of violence against immigrants and religions and hatred
against my fellow man is contrary, contrary to the word of Jesus but mark
my preaching, because I have declared myself a Christian without
actually acting like a Christian...….Those who practice a double standard
are legion in this country and they hate to be called out for their
contradictions but, but I call them out...…

The ones who practice contradictions are also miseducated but
they have never overcome their early indoctrinations and thus
they still believe in their childhood indoctrinations. They
haven't become who they are because they haven't evolved
into the values they truly are and thus become who they are.....

You have been miseducated because you have been trained, educated
to be a worker...…..not educated to be a human being and thus
you are miseducated. What is the path to becoming human?
Certainly not through the economic system that is the epitome of
nihilism where you are negated, devalued in the pursuit of profits/money.
How can the road of nihilism educate you in becoming human?
Only through a positive path, not a negative path can we begin
to understand what it means to be human.

Our education to becoming human begins with our positive
values of love, peace, hope, charity, honesty...…….
We learn what it means to be human via positive values,
the higher instincts...…..

Oh my friend, you have miseducated and only by a reevaluation of
values can you redeem yourself, only by becoming who you are, can
you be saved from being a worker all your life. The highest value in life
is not to be a worker, but to become the values that reflect our higher values.
I have committed the highest crime in America today, I have committed
disobedience to the values of America today. We cannot consume our way
to becoming human and we cannot work ourselves to death to become human,
no, the only path to becoming human is to take the long path of reeducation
and becoming. To know thyself, to overcome, then to become who you are...
this is the road to real wisdom, the road to understanding...…..

you might say, I doubt you..... and that doubt begins the road to wisdom...…

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:03 pm

today I woke up, showered, shaved and off to work I go.....
I spend 8 hours in a mindless grind of scanning items like
cat food and deodorant and frozen meals and bananas
and it was just like yesterday....and the day before....
and every day for the last 11 years.....

As I engage in this nihilistic process, I grow old and weary....
My days ahead are shorter then my days behind....
How do I find comfort or relief in my days of mindless drudgery....
How do I find peace of mind in these endless days of routine.....
When do I find the release of my soul as my body is ground into dust....

I am tired... tired in mind, body and soul.. tired of life......
my days are interchangable with every other day......
with no means of escaping the daily monotony.....
must I wait until death to set my soul free?

I've tried to escape my days with the religions of man....
I've tried the multitude of idolatries of man.....
I've worship to the god, Mammon...…
I've worship the dialectics of philosophy....
I've worship to my 65 inch big screen TV...…
I've sat on well worn pews waiting for divine inspiration.....
My search for a god, something to worship, the divine in all of us...
has failed...….

I live in this modern world, a world bereft of hope or redemption......
We live in poverty because our souls are bankrupt...…
We have mortgaged our souls for a piece of the American pie...…
and the time of reckoning is at hand.....
what have we gained in our worship of Mammon?

I am and we are disconnected and alienated from each other....
I am and we are distrustful of each other
I am and we are living in fear and despair
I am and we are without meaning or purpose
I am and we are estranged from life itself

It has been said that art has failed us...
perhaps it is because we have failed art....
it has been said that science has failed us....
perhaps because we have failed science....
it has been said that philosophy has failed us,
perhaps the failure is ours to share.....

Even this poem has failed..because I am using words to describe
deep seated feelings that defy descriptions....
how can I use words to describe the horror of existence I feel
how can I use words to describe the nightmare of our "modern" times...
how can words describe feelings that reach down to my very soul,
feelings of alienation and of despair and discouragement and melancholy

How do I escape?

That is the question of our modern times..
How do we escape our wretched modern times...
how do we free ourselves?

The pain, misery and sorrow that fills the land is palpable
and noticeable to even the dullest of eyes.....
We try escape by filling the halls of congress and the White house
with dullards and fools and idiot orange buffoons.....
We try to escape the pain and sorrow by pretending its not there...
We try to escape by addictions of all kinds...
our land of failure is littered with our various attempts of escape from our modern times....

we only look ever more ridiculous in our attempts to escape our modern times...
What are we to do?

Escape is impossible because we cannot escape our times....
suicide is surrender and addictions are a mask...
where does that leave us?

We cannot outrun the tides of dissatisfaction that litter our shores...
we cannot run far enough away to escape who we are...
we can only turn and face ourselves...…

Our modern times can be best described as a hurricane
with the fury of winds and rain and sheets of lighting in the sky.... overwhelming us.....
How do we find protection from the vast forces of our modern hurricane?

We begin with an simple acknowledgment,
I am but a man... A human being....
and I must break free...….
I must escape the hollowness of our times.....
I must escape this modern wasteland.....
the desolation of our modern age....

I am exhausted and broken by the daily death of my soul
with every 8 hour shift......perhaps that is where we begin.....
work, jobs, a career is not the solution, but part of the problem....

We have an education....
but we are simply being trained for a job..
that is what passes for an education these days
I say it, is not enough.... we must be reeducated...retaught....
to become more then just a worker,
we must be reeducated to what it means to be human.....

Our exhaustion and alienation and despair come from us being just workers...
which is the lowest possibility of being human... we are so much more
then just worker ants in our hive of civilization...…..
it is not in our daily grind of mind numbing work in which we find our possibilities...
but in our possibilities of being human
that we escape that which so defines the modern era....
the horror of existence, the nightmare of alienation and despair.....

It is in who we might become, not just who we are, that allows us
the possibility of escaping our modern age...…..

Today I woke up, showered, shaved and off to work I go...
I spent 8 hours in a mindless grind scanning items like
cat food and deodorant and frozen meals and bananas
and it was just like yesterday and the day before
and every day for the last 11 years

Is this the sum of what I am?

is this my only possibility?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:41 pm

But Kropotkin, I am not alienated nor in despair
nor do I see the horror of human existence or the nightmare of the
modern era.....

That is ok...….. I can witness for the both of us....
Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exists,
it just means you can't see it...….

What I write about is not a fact like the earth is 93 million
miles from the sun...… what I write about is one human being
understanding of our modern world...…. it is not written in stone
nor intended to be catholic in nature... it is simply one vision of
who we are...…what is your vision?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:48 pm

how are we to think of ourselves?

think of a dot .

think of another dot .

we have two dots, what is the connection between the two dots?

think of other dots .
. . .

What is the connection between each dot?

Can you connect the dots into a line?
of course, do so....

Now in the midst of those dots, make an X

. .
. .

That X is you. Not the collective you, but the individual you....
That X could be you or it could be me or it could be anyone on planet earth.
What is the connection between that X that is you and the surrounding dots?

We have an answer for that in the childhood indoctrinations of myths,
biases, habits, prejudices, superstitions...……
the myths connect the dots with the individual X, that is us...…

We have an two dimensional representation of us as an X and our
surroundings which is the dots.... but we are not, not two dimensional,
we are three dimensions, no, we are four dimensions..... suddenly
what has seem to be pretty basic, has become quite complex.....
we have height, width, breath and the 4th dimension which is time...…

We see ourselves as two dimensional beings when in fact, we are 4 dimensions....
existing in space and time..... and as we know from Einstein that space and time
are the same thing and we also know that we are matter existing in space/time...
and what else do we know from Einstein? that matter and energy is the same...…
I can burn the matter that is known as Kropotkin and create energy.....
Matter and energy is the same... now we have another aspect of existence along with
4 dimensions...…

so how I also connect the dots? by such things as calling it dot, a human being
so we are connected by our humanness... I can also connect the dots by
calling each dot life, we are connected by our existence which is life
or we can connect in other ways besides biological... we can connect
by our society or our nationality or our race or our color or our religion...
there are numerous ways we can connect any set of dots..... it just
depend on our imagination as to the various ways we are connected...…

so we are space/time and matter and energy for we can exist and
explain ourselves in any number of ways...………

Our ism's and ideologies are simply just another way to explain ourselves....

Jesus and Marx and Einstein and Newton and Spinoza are all simply people
attempting to explain our connection to the collection of dots and the
connection to us...………….

how do you explain a collection of dots and the single X that is you?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:52 pm

As an X, how would I connect myself to the other dots, to
the overall reality of the universe?

I could define myself by one single trait, of being white
or of being male or of being an American or of being Jewish...
I can define myself in any number of ways, I can connect myself
to all the other dots in the universe in any number of ways.

but many only define themselves by narrow standards, of being "white"
or by gender or by nationality or by religion...…

and in so narrowly defining themselves, they limit themselves....
If you define yourself as being "white" you deny other possibilities...
If you define yourself by nationality, you deny other possibilities...
If you define yourself as Jewish, you deny other possibilities.....

If I say, I am an atheist, I deny the possibility of being
catholic or being Buddhist or being agnostic or being Jewish...….
or being all of the above....

Why do people deny themselves possibilities by
limiting themselves to only one possibility like being incel
or being religious or being white...…

I cannot experience being a women being pregnant... that possibility
doesn't exist for me.. but I can experience sexuality or religion
or nationality..... it isn't about what isn't possible, it is about what
is possible for me.... and by defining myself in such a limited manner
as in a "nationalist" I am limiting my own possibilities....

Why do people take such pride in such a limited understanding
of their own possibilities?

I can connect with those other dots in so many meaningful ways,
different and diverse ways that to limit myself seems to be a silly act
of insanity.....

Why don't I self define in a catholic way? a universal way.....

Why would anyone so narrowly define themselves as to limit their
own possibilities?

I could guess fear of the possibilities inherent in being human....
If I limit my possibilities then I limit my possibility of being wrong...

If I limit my possibilities to being "white" then I eliminate obscurity
and narrow my choices into the safety of one possibility....
I can be "certain" if I limit my choices to one and only possibility....
if I allow other possibilities then I allow uncertainty into my world...
for the greater the possibilities that exist, the greater the uncertainty
that exists...……..to limit my possibility to just one choice is to become
'certain"...………..only a fearful person tries to limit their possibilities to one....

I stand in some relationship to the other dots... if I accept many different
possibilities then I cannot be certain which possibility is the correct one....

each ism, each ideology, each prejudice and each superstition is another
possibility that exists for us...…….to become human, fully human, I must say yes to all
possibilities...….to limit my choices is to say no to my possibility of becoming
more fully human...…….and to limit myself to only one choice is to say,
no to all other possibilities.....inclusion is the path to becoming, not exclusion.....

What do you say yes to?

and what do you say no to?

and your answer to both questions define you as a human being.....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:57 pm

I have often stated that the real trick is not in the
answers but in forming the "correct" question.
Einstein and Newton weren't great because they
found answers, they are great because they were able
to formulate the right questions........

So how do we understands ourselves in the form of
the "correct" question?

What does it mean to be Human?

How do we become who we are?

What are the values we should have has human beings?

As I stated before, I think human existence is a question
of values......I am a white male who is almost a senior citizen,
what values should I have? and if you are a black female,
what values should you have? Are they the same values or
because of our much different starting point, should the values
be different?

I think that if we accept the positive values of our higher nature,
the values are going to be similar... values like love, peace, harmony,
justice.... values which I call building values..... those values build
into something. Negative values are negative because they don't build into anything,
they are destructive, they negate and deny.....

Destructive values only purpose is to negate, destroy and thus
they can be wide ranging and random......

So the human question is about the values that we should hold
and act upon........what values are values that we can then
use to become who we are.... for the process of becoming who you are
is simply the process of becoming the values that you hold.....instead
of proclaiming you hold positive values like christian values and then
you act with negative values like hate, violence, greed and lust.......
You cannot hold one set of values and act upon another....Like the
Christian and the conservative do today, claim they live in Christ's values
but act upon negative destructive values....... we must become our
proclaimed values.... to become who we are......so the values
we proclaim are the same values we act upon......

What was the value of Gandhi? He acted upon his values in a consistent
manner.....His beliefs were the same as his actions............
He didn't proclaim one set of values and acted upon another.......

Can you say the same?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:50 pm

In reading Hegel and about Hegel, one often comes across
statements about "THE WORLD" as if the world were some
unified, united thing. Statements like this, "As the world itself is rational"

This is a problematic thought at best. The human tendency is to
create unity where none exists. I have stated, more then once,
that everything is connected and it is, but that doesn't make the "world"
a unified, world of thought or reason. The world exists, and we are participants
within that world, but the world in which we exists isn't in some way
unified or prone to human conceits like being "rational". The world is
and we are... but any rationality we might see comes from us, not from the world.

The world/universe runs on its predetermined rules and laws and forces like gravity
and the 3 laws of motion and the 3 laws of thermodynamics.
The world/the universe is "genetically" engineered to work in a certain way
just like animals have their genes and instincts which drive how they
operate. Just as we cannot attribute to animals rationality because of
their DNA operating instructions, we cannot attribute to the world/universe,
any rationality because it is simply obeying what it must obey in following
the force of gravity or the 3 laws of motion...…….even evolution is simply
guidelines for the rules of how animals grow from simple creatures to more
complicated creatures...…. The "guidelines" of evolution is simply
a picture of how animals become more complicated in nature...…..
It is a set of rules of how animals achieve this complication.

Now don't mistake the "rules" of evolution as being some sort of
rationality, it isn't. When we speak of the world, we simply speak
of individuals, either people or animals, or both, and the plant life
which follows its own rules...…….. The world, properly understood
is simply a collection of individuals. Now these individuals may have
rationality, but the "world" in which these individuals operate in, does not
have rationality. so it is important to keep separate this notion of "The world"
and the individuals within that world...…

So the "THE WORLD" does not have rationality or purpose or design, the
world simply exists and it is those creatures that exists within the world
that create the meaning/purpose or rationality of "THE WORLD".

We must be careful in giving 'THE WORLD" meaning and purpose that
doesn't exist within "THE WORLD". "THE WORLD" is and we are,
and the 2 don't necessarily support each other or create meaning
for each other.

So our understanding is that when people state, "The world is a harsh
and cruel place" that is an incorrect statement. It is us as operators of
the world that has created the conditions of being "harsh and cruel".
The world has done nothing of the sort, being "harsh and cruel" for
the world is simple following those rules and laws that the "THE WORLD" must
follow, just as animals must follow their DNA and their instincts.

Anthropomorphism is the human trait which is the attribution of
human traits, emotions, intentions, values to non-human entities.
And our thinking the world as being rational is just one such
example of Anthropomorphism.

So for reading of Hegel, we see that he too Anthropomorphize
"THE WORLD" and thinks that it is some "rational world" when
in fact the world is nothing of the sort. Hegel's failure is
assuming facts not actually present. He has created
a fictional idea which is the Anthropomorphism of "THE WORLD"
and given "THE WORLD" traits and intentions that the world doesn't have,
like rationality and purpose and intent.

Hegel's thought is flaw from the very beginning because it is based
on a flawed idea, that "THE WORLD" is somehow human in nature
and it isn't. "THE WORLD" just is and it is us that create value and meaning
in the world. We make the world a "harsh and cruel" place. We should
finally own up to this basic fact. That we humans are the creators of the world,
in our actions, words and interactions between each other. If the world is a
"harsh and cruel" place, we are responsible for it and we are the remedy
for the world being "harsh and cruel". The answer to the question of what
kind of world do we exist in, is simple our actions and interactions between
ourselves and our fellow human beings, that create what kind of world we live in...…

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:12 pm

If we understand the above correctly, then we understand
that we are the creators of our world. If I were to take a baseball
bat and hit someone, the world wasn't "harsh and cruel" nor did
any of you have anything to do with it, I was the creator of being
"harsh and cruel" to that individual human being. We have used
this failed understanding of the world to escape responsibility
for the world. If we can successfully place the blame elsewhere,
put the world on the hook for it being "harsh and cruel", then
we have escaped responsibility, accountability for
the world being "harsh and cruel".

We make the world responsible to make us unaccountable for
"the world" being "harsh and cruel".

If the world is rational, then we are off the hook for
"THE WORLD" being a place of poverty and crime and
pollution and global warming...… but the world is neutral,
it doesn't have any rationality or any designs on making the
world suck...…..It is us..... we are responsible for the "THE WORLD"
being a "harsh and cruel" place. It is our actions, our words, our
interactions with each other, our intentions and our goals that
make "THE WORLD" seem to be "harsh and cruel".

The world has a large series of problems and we must face up the
to fact that we humans are responsible for those problems.

That in the nutshell, is the question. Are we going to take
responsibility or not?

It doesn't matter if the problems were created thousands of years ago,
at what point do we begin to accept responsibility for actions
done by humans, for human, with humans in response to some
question or problem. We are accountable because the acts, actions,
words and interactions that created a world that is "harsh and cruel"
were done by human beings. By virtue of the fact we are human,
we are responsible for the acts, actions, words and interactions of
the past human beings. Actions, words and interactions done in
our name, done for our "benefit" and so as inheritors of the world,
we are now accountable, responsible for the debts of our fathers.

Just as we are accountable for the debts incurred by our parents
when they die, we are accountable for the debts of action and words
and interactions we have inherited...….

If we have inherited the debt of a "harsh and cruel" world,
then we have to, as to pay off that debt, try to make the world
less "harsh and cruel"...……….

"THE WORLD" is our debt and we are responsible for that debt
and like in any inheritance, we are put in charge for the world's
situation regardless if we are responsible or not, the inheritance
is there and there is no escaping that debt.

We are to held accountable and responsible for the state of the world....

What will you do to improve your share of our inheritance?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:42 pm

understand this; I am not attempting to "understand"
anything or explain anything, I am just describing...….

I exist: How or why I exist, is, for now, unimportant.
I exist within the "world" what the world is, is unimportant, for now.
I exist as a biological entity: I am living.
This living means that I must, must follow certain rules or laws
of life. Just as natural systems have rules or laws, the laws of motion
or the theory of gravity, I must "obey" certain biological rules/laws.
My rules/laws can be called necessities. I must eat to survive.
I must breath, I must drink water, my body to survive, must obey biological
necessities. I must remove bodily waste. I have no choice.
To mentally/emotional survive, I must have love, security, freedom...…..
I must have contact with my fellow humans, not as a physical need, but
as a psychological need, a mental and emotional need. We are social creatures,
we must have social contact to survive....(which is why the worse form
of punishment is solitary confinement) For some the scars of loneliness can
never be healed.

We have, for lack of a better word, a "world". Now what exactly is this
"world"? The "world" is our interactions with anything outside of us.

For example, I have the day off. I can do many things on my day off.
I can read or watch movies or jack off or pet the cat or stand in front
of the window and watch the "outside world". However, I must, must follow
my biological necessities, I must eat, I must breath air, I must drink water,
but because I am only alone for a few hours, I can survive without any
physical contact with other human beings. So we have two type of actions,
one is biological necessity and one is based purely on choice.
Now at this moment, I am doing laundry... I kinda like clean clothes,
and my wife has told me to do the dishes. These are mixed type of
things, I don't necessarily have to do them, but someone does.
As my back is really bothering me this morning, I probably won't
do the dishes as that means I have to bend over and that hurts too much.
And my wife understands (or so I hope) and so she will do the dishes later.
I can also walk around my condo, just walk. Now at what point of this day
of being inside my condo, will it mean, am I, "IN THE WORLD"? We often
talk about "the world is a cruel and harsh place" and yet, in my condo,
am I "in" the world? The "world" seems to be something outside of me
and my condo. As I exist, right now, in this moment, am I "in" the world?
I am not in contact with the "world", I am not on the phone, I am not
watching TV, I am not looking outside, am I "in" the world? I am on
the computer writing this, but until I press send, it simply sits on
my computer, waiting. How can I use the sentence, "the world is
a harsh and cruel place" just sitting here, quiet and peacefully listening
to music and writing this. The sentence "the world is a harsh and cruel place"
has no meaning in this moment, in this place. It is outside of me and
outside of my condo. Now if someone were to suddenly break in,
a home invasion of sorts, then suddenly, "the world is a harsh and cruel place"
seems to fit. But that requires someone to interact with me. I haven't left,
they entered. If I were to shower and changed into something other then
the sweats I am wearing, and I were to enter the "world" then, as I am now
"in" the world, the statement that the world is a "harsh and cruel place"
might be accurate. The act of engagement or entering the world,
that becomes the answer to the question of, what is the world?

Something outside of me. If I leave my condo and walk down the main
street of my little town, then I have entered the "world"...….
As I walk down the street, I can engage with or participate in with
other lives, other beings, animal and human. In my little town,
everybody walks their dog down the main street, so I see all kinds
of dogs as I walk, and I either engage with or ignore them and they
might do the same. At this point, there is no biological "necessity"
driving me. I don't have to engage with or be part of any person's
activity. My physical needs, my necessities, have been met and so
I don't need to "obey" anything right now. I walk because I want to
and my interactions with other people can be random because I cannot
know or anticipate who else is walking down main street. I might know them,
I might not. So another factor of "this world" is its randomness, chaos as it were,
anything might happen as I walk down main street. I cannot know.

Is the world "a harsh and cruel place"? I cannot know until I interact with "the world"
and something happens. Now if a car being driven down the street suddenly loses
its brakes and hits me as I am walking across the street, that can be considered
to prove the point that the world is "a harsh and cruel place" but it can also
be considered to just be a random occurrence. The world is a random, chaotic
place, one can never know what will happen or why.

It is this interaction with things, people, places that constitute
"the world". I do not have control over these interactions, they
are random. It is this "other", the interactions outside of me,
that is the "world". The cat has been bother me all morning,
hanging around and walking all over the computer
and clinging to me. I finally feed the cat and the cat is no
longer bothering me. It is that interaction that is the "world".

So interactions are the "world", but how am I suppose to
understand those interactions? If they are as I have suggested,
random interactions, then what "sense" of them, can I make?

I can suppose that those interactions are the work of "god" but
there is no evidence of that. Because if the interactions are
random as I have suggested and caused by god, then god
is random, chaotic. Now some might suggest that those interactions
were not random, but those interactions were created by and
part of god's plan for me and the "world". But still I cannot react to
that because if those plans are "inscrutable" as suggested, I cannot in
any way, shape or form, understand them, I cannot react to them.
I have no means or way to react to "inscrutable" plans...…
I am, by definition, unable to understand them, and thus I have
no way to react to them...……..they lie outside of me.

I can suppose the interactions of me and other people, places, events
are part of some "scientific" explanation for the "world". But as we know,
science as shown us the "world" is random, chaotic, just as we have discovered
walking down main street. But that still doesn't help us understand anything.

Things happen when we interact with the "world".
How are we to explain those "things"?

Last edited by Peter Kropotkin on Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:49 pm

so the question becomes, what does it mean when we
say, "the world"? What does this "world" look like, how
do we understand it, what does it mean to be in the "world"?

How are we to understand, "the world"?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:47 pm

so given what I have said, we seem to have a dualism, like
Descartes, mind/body problem or Plato's eternal world
and his temporary/ impermanent world.

We know because we exist within them, we humans have
rules/ laws we must obey if we are to exist or continue to exist
and the "world" the "universe" has its rules/laws, it too must obey,
the laws of motion and the theory of gravity, for example. The "universe" has
laws and rules and forces it must follow, necessity demands that
universe follows certain rules/laws/forces. Just as we must "obey"
our necessities of eating, breathing, waste control, bodily feedback and
other laws/rules/ forces of life. And some of the rules/laws that govern
the universe, also govern us. We too must "obey" the laws of gravity
and the laws of motion. The universe must also follow certain
rules/laws we must obey, for example, the need for energy, for consumption
of matter which allows the continued existence of the universe and us.

This is what Einstein meant by his famous formula, E = Mc2...….
The universe and us, we are both energy and matter as the two
are interchangeable. If it is matter, it is energy and if it is energy, it is matter.

so what looks like a dualism isn't really a dualism. If we break down
the universe and we break down us, we see that it is the same thing, energy/matter.

so as I quietly sit in my condo and listen to music or if I walk down
the main drag of my little city, everything I see is matter/energy.

If it looks like a dualism, that means we may not have broken it
down to it basic parts. But in regards to Descartes mind/body problem,
if we hold that mind and body are two entirely different things,
what about mind? body is clearly matter/energy so it is accounted
for, but what is mind? what is thought? It is energy and so it too
can be converted into matter. Everything in the universe is
energy/matter. If if it matter, it can become energy and if it is energy,
it can become matter.

So how do we humans, how do we understand the universe?

We experience the universe. We have contact with the matter/energy
of the universe and then we tell some "tale" about that matter/energy.

We are matter/energy and we experience other matter/energy
and then we try to "explain" that experience in some fashion.

at certain temperatures, water can be a solid like ice and at another
temperature, water can be water, and at other temperatures, water
can be in another state which we can call vapor. In other words, water can
be solid, wet or a gas. There are four states of matter, solid, liquid, gas and
plasma. we can also stipulate other forms of matter, glass or liquid crystal
or in more extreme conditions, such as the Bose-Einstein condensates,
neutron-degenerate matter and quark-gluon plasma which only occurs,
respectively, in situations of extreme cold, extreme density and extremely

So this "simple" question of matter can suddenly become quite complicated.

But isn't that true for anything. We can, by how we go in depth
into something, create complications. Humans are, visually,
different from animals, and yet if we exam both animals
and humans, we find they are actually very similar. They have
similar body functions, similar purposes of inner organs, similar
genetic code, similar ways of movement, similar information
gather systems which we call senses.

Animals and humans must obey certain laws/forces/rules that
is imposed by our common evolution. Our shared history means
we are connected in many ways and yet, we look different.
we allow our different forms and structures, to confuse the matter
between humans and animals. We are in fact, animals.
We are simply two species which have a common ancestry.

The difference between animals and humans is the difference in
how they respond to each other and to events/ experiences.
And that is really the function of how evolution/ changes
has created different response to experiences. We both, still,
respond quite often with the same response like the fight or flight
response both human and animals have to extreme experiences.

Now have I "solved" or settled anything, nope. Not in the least.
In fact, I may have complicated matters by pointing out the various
differences and similarities in animals and humans.

I have in fact, muddle things by not even really having a point.

and so what? Is having a point going to "solve" anything?

How would you go about answering the question I didn't even pose?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:06 pm

"she should have died hereafter;
there would have been a time for such a word.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
creeps in this petty pace from day to day
to the last syllable of recorded time,
and all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that
struts upon the stage and frets his hour upon the stage
and then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

To those who have read my last several post and wondered.
For some will wait, most in fact, until Kropotkin reappears and answers
the questions he raises.... And some, a few, will try to answer the questions
raised by putting together the clues.... yes, the clues... for there
are questions asked and mysteries to solve and we have a whodunit with
clues and everything...……… for we are in the crux of the problem....

We have a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

How do we solve an tale that is full of sound and fury, signifying nothing?

We can look for pattern and coherence and meaning even if none exists
or we can say, you say tomato and I say tomahto, or we can
hold to the mystery and proclaim it is beyond our comprehension...….

in the way we seek understanding or not, we tell the world who we are,
are we the scientist/philosopher or are we the religious or have we gotten to the point
where everything is the same anyway, why bother?

How are you going to approach what I have written?

the answer is not what I wrote, but in how you answer it.

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:24 pm

or said another way.....

what is truth?

am I understood?

doubt it...…

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:07 pm

As my back hurts, I called in sick today

So I'm very tired of Hegel, so to break it up, I began
another book, "Philosophy, as a way of life" by Pierre Hadot.

As I read it, I came across a very interesting idea.

"Now we have a better understanding of atopia, the strangeness of the
philosopher in the human world. One does not know how to classify him,
for he is neither sage, nor a an like other men."

It is this atopia, that I wish to write about.

The strangeness of the philosopher in the human world! What a concept.
Indeed, why should one even think about philosophy when there is money to
make or deals to make or to influence others, so to make money...…….

But he is not a sage..... and the sage in the Greek world was the highest form
of what a man could be. But the philosopher is not a "regular" man either.
How do we account for such a person? What can we do with a person who has
rejected the values of their society? This smacks of the highest crime in the modern
world, disobedience. What is wrong with someone whose chief goal isn't making money?

I have rejected modern values as being nihilistic..... the pursuit of money/profits
to the negation of people and their values is nihilistic.

But I am not a sage for I haven't listed any alternative values to
substitute for our nihilistic modern values...…..

Instead I have done something different. I have engaged in
getting people to see their own possibilities. I have offered up
the ancient method of philosophy which is philosophy as a way of life.
The modern world sees philosophy as a outside of yourself understanding
of abstract idea's that don't have any meaning in one's direct life.....

Philosophy is an abstract discourse into several area's of inquiries
that have no impact in one's life. One might study Epistemology,
the philosophical study of knowledge, which dominated philosophy
for two centuries, from Descartes to Kant. One might study Metaphysics,
which is the branch of philosophy dealing with the nature of existence, of being.
Now one might study ethics, which is the study of moral values and rules.
One can study Logic which is the study of rationality and seeks the basis
upon which rational discourse if possible. Logic has dominated the philosophical
scene for over a 100 years and has lead to no great understanding of who we are
and what are our possibilities.....We have political science which is the study
our political environment and its possibilities and we have Aesthetics which is
the study of beauty and taste and understanding the criteria of standards
we use to study and understand beauty. This understanding of Aesthetics
has pretty much fallen by the wayside in favor of other idea's, mostly

In each of these is the abstract understanding of our lives.... we can study
philosophy in terms of these abstract idea's and still be terrible human beings,
because our study of philosophy is about an intellectual understanding of philosophy,
not a emotional or philosophy as a way of life..... Philosophy done intellectually,
as it has been done in the modern age, engages the brain, but not how we live or
how we should engage in our lives..... You can study philosophy and not have
it engage in any way, shape or form in your life. It is just an abstract study
that means nothing in our lives. We can study philosophy and commit crimes
like murder or torture or rape because the study of philosophy is not engaged
in who we are or how we should engage with the modern world.

Philosophy is an abstract study about an abstract subject which engages
in the world abstractly. When I proclaim one should, know thyself, it is
not about an abstract engagement with who you are as a person, I am Kropotkin
and I believe in...….. No, it is about knowing who you are as a person, I am
Kropotkin, and I am not taking philosophy seriously because I can read the most
profound philosophical message and then go out and engage in the world
in a most superficial manner with no thought as to what is my responsibility
to become a better person, a more philosophical person. I can read the most
profound message and then lie, steal, cheat and yes, even murder because
the philosophy I read, is read superficial and doesn't engage me on a personal
level......I don't need to take philosophy seriously. I can read it the modern way
which is to say, it doesn't involve me as a way of life. Philosophy is simply
another subject to study like knowing the declaration of independence
was written in 1776. It doesn't affect or matter in my life in any way, shape or form
that the declaration was written in 1776. It is just a date which as no
meaning in my life. It doesn't change or impact or involve me on any other level
outside of being information that I happen to know. My actions nor my behavior
will not be any different because I happen to know the year of the declaration
of independence and the same can be said about philosophy.

Descartes created the modern notion of the body/soul problem.
what does that actually mean to us as human beings is unimportant
because it is simply a fact to know, not to engage with or to
change one's life, but simply just to have a fact and knowing that
fact changes nothing in my life and philosophy done right should
change and move and shake one into beliefs and actions that make
a person become more engage with their life.

Philosophy should become a way of life, not just facts to know...…

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state


Return to Philosophy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot]