a new understanding of today, time and space.

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:23 pm

The question of existence, the problem of existence, is in part,
one of how do we understand experiences, how do we create
context for experiences, how do we classify the point and meaning
of experiences?

The experiences we have, from birth to death are the same experiences,
in other words, each of us is born and each of us will die. Each of us will
have experiences like school, family, society, government, indoctrinations...
As a man, I will have experiences that men have, like peeing standing up
and the male version of puberty and the awareness of other people being
sexual objects. I will not have the experiences of women. And the specific
experiences we have affects us as much as the general experiences.

The experiences are the same for us, life, death, puberty, love, marriage,
sex, but the difference is that each of us understands each experience
differently. My understanding of education is different then yours because
of social, psychology, economic and political differences but all of get educated
in some fashion. How we understand it is different, but the event is the same.

So how do we understand the question of "what ought we to do" in
terms of experience? If we stick with experience instead of ideology,
then we can understand better "what ought we to do"? Or said another way,
what factors, what is the nature of being human and how does that
relate to experiences?

We human beings are social creatures. We exist together, not separately,
we cannot exist alone. We must have other human beings to survive and any
construct of human society must include this aspect of human beings being
social creatures. This socialness is part of being human. It is, in a great part,
the reason why humans beings survived the long evolutionary period of
our youth. Our social nature is partly why we succeeded as animals
as we grew into human beings. Now some animals have other evolutionary
means of success like sharp teeth and claws or they can run fast or
they can hide... evolutionary success has many different parts to it,
but one of the reasons humans survived was this social nature we have.
This social nature is best exemplify by our need to cooperate.
The distinguishing factor of human survival is the ability to cooperate.
The modern ideology that proclaims rugged individualism and the myth
of the self created man is a lie. We do not self create. We are created
by the hands of thousands who have touched our lives and by the thousands
who touched those hands and the thousands who touched their hands.
We are the product of millions of years of evolution and training.
And in those millions of years, we were influenced by millions of lives.
Human success is not the result of our individual actions, but by
the actions of all those who came before us who cooperated and
created the modern world. I cannot emphasize this enough. We are the
creation of millions of years of cooperation between human beings.
If you fail to understand this, you fail to understand human beings.
The key to human success has been in the creation of our social
organizations like the family and the state. This is a another step
in the evolution of human cooperation. The social structure that
lies at the heart of human survival comes from the ability to
create social structures like education and protection of ourselves
by the means of government. This ability to create social structures
is done by our social skills. Social skills that is not linked to intelligence
but by emotional skills. Social structures are created over generations
and by emotional skills. This is the basis of our emotional skills.
The ability to work in and become part of social structures like the family
and society and the government. That is a vital part of being human.
The ability to use our social skills to allow us the ability to survive.
The key to our survival comes from our cooperation and that cooperation
comes from our social skills and that comes from our emotional skills.
One of the key factors of survival is by being social and being part of the group.

One of the next factors of survival for the human being is the rationality
or the individual intelligence AND the collective intelligence we have.
We combined not only in social structures but in common debate
in which we used our collective intelligence in debate to create
policy. In other words, the creation of modern human beings
came about over the million of years in which human beings debated
over campfires, past, present and future actions.

This rationality or use of intelligence that allow us to survive
without the tools of the animals like sharp teeth or claws
or not being able to run fast, is a key part of human survival.

So we have the social skills/emotional aspect of being human
which is the skills of cooperation and the creation of social
organizations and we have the intelligence aspect of survival.

thus we now understand how come we have two important
and crucial aspects of human ability. the social and the intellectual
aspect, the social skills to adapt within the group and the intellectual
aspect to create goals and a vision of who we are and where we
need to go next. The ability to create social organizations is an emotional
skill. It is this combination of emotional and intellectual skills that allowed
us to survive.

But what does this mean to us today? Let us take IQ45 attacks upon
both the social organizations and the intellectual aspects of human
existence. IQ45 has attacked social organizations that have successfully
allowed us to survive and grow as human beings, social organizations like
the government and social natures like kindness and cooperation that
has allowed us to succeed and grow. Plus he has attacked intelligence
which is the second part of the equation of human success. We must
have and use both the emotional skills and intellectual skills if we
want to survive and prosper going into the future. To attack
our key to survival which is cooperation and the creation of social
structures is dangerous to our future.

So let us relate this to another point I have made which is
system understanding. For a system to succeed, that system
must have energy going into it and every system must
have increasing energy going into it to maintain itself.
If IQ45 takes away energy from our social systems, then
he threaten to cause disorder and chaos within the systems
because disorder and chaos is caused by the loss of energy going
into a system. This energy helps a system maintain and grow
the order within that system. It takes energy to maintain order
within a system. To keep the solar system flowing on its
path, it takes energy to maintain the system. Every system
must have energy to maintain itself and without that energy,
the system begins to fail which is the growth of disorder
and chaos within the system. The term for this is entropy.
The loss of energy which maintains a system order.

So what IQ45 is doing is causing the system, the social system
of government and society to lose energy and thus become
unstable and increase disorder and chaos. That is why conservativism
is so dangerous. The basic premise of conservatism is based
on an idea that is dangerous to social organizations and government because
it drives energy from those social organizations and government which increases
disorder and chaos in those systems. The survival of human beings derive from
the strength of human social organizations and government. We are only
as strong as our social organizations. Social organizations which allows us to survive
and prosper. and then we return to the question, what of experiences?

How do we understand experiences? What does my explanation of
emotional and intellectual engagement in regards to our social
structures and organizations help you to understand experiences?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6850
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:11 pm

Let us look at another aspect of this...…

conservatives preach and extoll the value of greed.
However, when we examine this value, it changes
into a negative and destructive value. Greed damages
a system, any social system. Greed has no effect on
such natural systems such as a solar system, but
on a social system such as society or government, greed
damages that system. How? by taking energy that is
better served by going into a system and taking that energy
applying it to own's selfish needs. In other words, Greed
takes energy into itself instead putting energy into a social
system or government. That investment of energy into oneself
instead of a social structure removes the much needed energy
that allows a system to maintain and grow itself. If energy is spent
on private matters like greed, then the social structure and government
has less energy which is entropy. That is why we must overcome our
negative energies because those negative energies take away
energy from our social structures and government. The energy needed
to maintain our social structures becomes less because of negative energy
and that leads to chaos and disorder. Order comes from energy being
put into a system and disorder comes from the loss of energy
in a system. Negative energy, negative values take energy away
from social structures and thus increases disorder and chaos.

Now remember energy doesn't have to be gas or oil or solar energy,
energy is the effort someone puts into something, energy is the input
of activity one puts into a system... thus energy can be
people putting energy into social system like government or
society or any social structure...….. Thus when we have over 100 million
people failing to vote, they are taking energy away from our government and
our social structure and thus damaging it. By voting and engaging in our social
structures and government, we increase energy into the system which allows
it to maintain itself and grow, prosper. Energy put into a system allows it
to maintain itself and grow itself, and every social structure, organization must
have ever increasing energy to maintain and grow itself.

Thus we cannot put energy into negative values like nihilism or greed
or anger or lust because putting energy into those values prevent energy
going into our social systems like government. You only have a set amount
of energy and what shall you spend that energy on? That is the point
of the Kantian/Kropotkin question, on what are we going to spend our energy on?

Put your energy into valuable and important things like the survival of the human
race and the survival of the planet earth and stop putting energy into such
unimportant matters like greed and hate and anger and lust and watching TV.

Put your energy into stuff that counts and that will help continue the human race....

Ask yourself, what did I do today to improve the energy of the social systems
that are essential to my existence? What did I do that increased the energy
of social systems like social organizations and the government?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6850
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:38 pm

Ever wonder why dictatorships fail and why communism
failed and democracy has succeeded?

The reason is simple enough, dictatorships and communism as
practiced by the soviet union failed because it prevented the energy
of the people to fuel the dictatorship/communism. In other words,
if a political system doesn't have enough energy which is
motivation and enthusiasm, the system will eventually die.
Motivation and enthusiasm is energy put into a system and
no different then gas into a car or food into a biological being.

Apathy and disinterest takes away energy from a system and
thus increases disorder and entropy and chaos. if you want a viable,
organized society, you must have motivation and enthusiasm and
energy put into the system for it to survive. That is why today
political systems are failing because of the attacks upon the
voting rights and disenfranchising of people leads to the failure
of political and economic systems. You want America to survive,
you must, must increase the energy going into the system
and the only way to do that is by creating motivation and
enthusiasm in the system by engaging people in the system.

Creating energy and positive energy at that, will be the cure
for what ails America. All questions of government and the systems
within government, both societal and individual are questions of
energy. Does that system, both individually and societal have enough
energy to maintain itself and even grow itself or is the system lacking
enough energy to maintain itself? That is the real question of political
science and politics and philosophy and all things social, does that
organization have enough energy to sustain itself? The family unit is
an excellent place to begin to understand how energy is used
to maintain and even grow a unit like the family.

We have families that must have energy to sustain itself
and that energy is not just fuel of cars or planes or trains but
the amount of energy the family itself puts into the family unit.
Successful families have/put more energy into the family then
less successful families.... It becomes a question of family success
comes from the energy a family puts into itself and social systems
like government and businesses and chess clubs all become
a question of how much energy, not just money, but motivation
and enthusiasm people put into the social systems, that is energy.
and the current drive to disenfranchise American's takes away from
the motivation and enthusiasm people have for their political and
economic systems...….. In other words, businesses fail because they
don't have the motivation or enthusiasm to sustain a business.
The drive for profit/money which negates humans and their
values also negates their motivation and enthusiasm for a business
and its driver, the capitalism system. If you want to motivate and
enthuse people, you must, must engage them by giving them
greater profits and greater participation into the capitalist and
political system. You want America to survive, you must engage
with people so they become motivated and enthused participants
in those systems and the only to do that is by giving them the
motivation to increase their energy levels in the system by
giving them a share of the gains of the system..... Not the
pennies on the dollars but a far more and increased participation
in the money made and decisions made...…. if you want a business
or government or any social system to be successful, you have to
increase the participation of the people within that system and the
only way to do that is increase their share of profits and their share
of participation and their increase participation into government.
To disenfranchise people is to decrease the amount of energy people
will put into a system and enough of a decrease and the system
will fail. That is where we are at right now..... The apathy and
discouragement people feel in the political and economic system
means that people will no longer put energy into those political
and economic systems and thus they will begin to fail and we
see this today in the beginning of the failure of the American
system because people have taken their energy and put it
into something besides the social and economic and political
systems that we need to survive. We must get people a reason
to engage in and participate in our social, economic and political
systems and that means we must give them a vested interest
in maintaining those systems and the only to do that is by
giving people a share of those systems. We must invest people
with the social, political and economic systems. Thus we must
reward them in some fashion to increase their participation
in these systems... rewards them via both increase share
of the wealth of capitalism and the increase share in
participation in the government to the people's benefit.
If people don't benefit from either government or business,
then why bother engaging with them? There is no benefit
right now to engage with or increase the energy one puts
into government or business because the energy put into
such a system will and is negated by the lack of rewards
for such participation into government or business.....

People have to feel that their participation and energy
put into a system is worth it and right now it isn't worth
the energy or time or effort to engage with or participate
in government or business or any social organization.

and thus we have disengagement and apathy and general not
caring if the system lives or die because we get no benefit
from either engaging with or participation in government or
business.... when we increase the benefits of engaging
with government and with business, then we shall see an increase
in motivation and engagement and enthusiasm and thus an increase
in energy in the social, political and economic organizations and thus
we shall have a better chance of succeeding in the social, political
and economic systems that we have. The success of all social,
political and economic systems/organizations come from the amount of energy
we put into those systems/organizations.

so what energy have you put into societies systems or organizations
that will allow it to maintain and grow itself?

for that is the question of human existence.... how shall we expend
our energy? On what shall we expend our energy? On private
goals or private desires or shall we expend our energy on
social, political or economic systems or organizations?

This leads us to negative energy like anger and hate and lust
and greed for these private uses of energy takes away from
the overall and needed energy a system needs to maintain and grow
itself.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6850
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:14 pm

so what does this all mean for such things as private property?

Well, if we have private property, then we are using our energy to
keep and maintaining such private property. We don't use our energy
on such public activities as the political, social and economic.
We use our energies on private matters which don't benefit
us socially and politically and economically. The point of energy use
is to improve ourselves in a public manner as in the social, political
and economic. the engagement for us to understand is
the engagement between the private use of energy and
the public use of energy. When I use the energy of greed or anger
or hate or lust, I am using that energy for private uses which doesn't
benefit anyone including me. It is only by the use of public energy
that we bring benefit to us and to others in our society. Only by the
use of positive energy or public engagement with society or the political
or the economic does our energy help maintain and even grow
the social, political or economic. We must bring our energy to
benefit our society, or our government or our economic well being.
and that is only possible by bringing our energy to public uses,
that is to engage with society and government with energy and enthusiasm.

We must fuel our society with energy and enthusaism along
with the cold hard cash that is the energy of taxes. We must
pay for our society in cash in the form of taxes and
we must pay for our society with engagment and energy and enthusaism.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6850
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:14 pm

As we are social creatures, being born to be social is our default
condition. This sociability of human beings is the start to us
understanding what it means to be human and, and the
questions of human existence such as "how am I to live"
"what am I to spend my energy on". These simple questions
are question leading us to political science. How are we to
organize ourselves? The answer is found in one simple phrase,

"We the people"

As it is our strength to organize ourselves, we must begin all political
philosophy here. Being social is the human condition and the best
format for us to be social is democracy. We can collectively decide
our present and future as we always have done, in discussions between
ourselves. The very strength of human existence and the reason for
our very survival has been the human ability to unite and discuss
matters that matter to us both personally and collectively.

Individually, we can not survive on our own. As an individual,
no one human can survive or exists on their own. This is not only true
physically, but emotionally and psychological and mentally. Humans
are constructed to live and work and play with each other.
For that is how we became the leading animals on earth.
By our working together as a group. That is the human key to
success. So any attempt to create an ideology or myth that
proclaims that we have success individually is simply wrong.
The myth of rugged individuality is just that, a myth.
The strength of humans is in their collective approach to
existence. One for all and all for one is not just a movie
slogan, but it is the very reason human beings exists today.

So this idea of going it alone and the solitary individual creating
greatness is a myth. Surely we must exist together or we die alone.

So this means that politically and economically, we must organize ourselves
into collective units. As that is what we do best. The social organization
of the hierarchy approach of the modern world is doomed to failure because
it doesn't address the very strength of the human animal, which lies
with cooperation and discussion of the values that matter to us...…

The up and down approach of business must be replaced with a
general leveling out of hierarchy into more of a group leadership effort.

We survive and grew because we practiced more of a group understanding, more
of a group leadership model instead of a hierarchy model. A problem arose and
the leadership didn't solve the problem, the entire group after discussion
and group engagement then worked on solving the problem. We survive as human
beings not with a top down model of leadership but with a group leadership model.

We want to create a new model of existence and that is really an old model of
existence. This "new" solves several problems that exist in the modern world.
First we have the problem of alienation which is the question of the feeling that
I am apart and separate from my society. If you want engagement, then
you must, must include everyone into the discussion that affects their lives.
This also helps in apathy that people feel in modern life. If you include people
in the discussion of where we are and where we need to be, then
you bring people back into society and away from alienation and apathy
and yes, even nihilism. For our modern society has practice nihilism for
for far too long... where the modern pursuit of profits/money has
driven people into being negated as they are valued less then profit or money.
We don't need to make the planet the center of the earth as religious types
proclaim. We just need to return people to a place of value by removing the
current model of nihilism that exists, both politically and economically. The answer to
what the solution for our modern life is the return of people into
being able to engage with and be part of discussions about matters
that matter to them and the hierarchically system currently in use,
doesn't do that, the hierarchically system we have both politically and
economically.

The driver of the Kantian/Kropotkin question is no longer
the top to bottom theory of modern life. The new driver of
the Kantian/Kropotkin questions lies within the communal
discussions and decision making that was the basis for becoming
human. The group in discussions with itself, that becomes
the driver of the Kantian/Kropotkin questions. "What can I do"
is answered in a group context because the real question is
"What can we do" and that is the real question.

Now one might argue that we will slow down "progress",
with a group leadership model instead of a top down leadership model,
perhaps, but I am not so sure that is a bad thing. It might not be a bad
thing if we took our time and made our decisions a little slower.
It is a rare time when a decision must be made overnight and as
anybody who has made a rather quick decision knows, sometimes the very
act of rushing a decision can lead to rather bad decisions being made.

the modern world can learn to slow down and takes its time.
From this we can make better decisions and we can learn to
enjoy what we have. Today, we rush from here to there without
any understanding of why is it so important that we rush about.

So far the pluses of removing the top down leadership model outweigh
the negatives. With the group leadership style, we can get people
to become engaged with society again, we can remove alienation
and apathy as part of our current modern condition and we can slow
down the rush to judgement that exists today. Rushing to judgement
can often lead us to make hasty and unwise decisions.

This idea of group leadership means we adapt as the leadership model
in all phases of our lives, politically, economically and
socially. Democracy becomes the ideal form of any discussions regarding
the Kantian/Kropotkin questions...… We engage socially and politically
and economically with and through the democratic format.

Our engagement with life is a communal engagement as
that has been the human method since the beginning of time.
Even that most dictatorship of formats, the family, has
democratic tendencies as even the family has voting rights.

One might claim that this new/old method is quite inefficient
but I would argue that the world and nature and humanity
are not models of efficiency anyway. The highest goal of
achievement is not efficiency. Show me anything that has ever been created
that has been 100 % efficient. Nature certainly isn't that efficient and
any man made system such as the car engine or solar panels are not
very efficient. Stars and planets and galaxies are not very efficient. So why
this emphasis on something that we human cannot ever, ever, ever reach
in any case? This emphasis on efficiency flies in the face of everything
we know about human beings and the universe. Nature doesn't strive
for it, so why should we?

So what should we strive for if not efficiency? We should be striving
for the means and ways for us to become better human beings
and that is only possible within and by a group of people living together
and working together and playing together and making decision together.
Not the modern model of the up and down leadership but the much wider
model of communal decision making.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6850
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:08 pm

and what of experiences? experiences are how we relate to each
other. I work and I work in a really shitty job/company/industry.
If you work in a shitty job/company/industry, you can relate to
me and my shitty job. Humans use experiences to relate to each
other. I am married and have been for 22 years. Those who have
been married for a long time can relate to that fact. We have
a commonality in the length of our marriage. We share that
experience and thus we can relate to each other. Before I was
married and had a child, I thought, I believed that I knew
all the information needed to be married and to be a father.
I was wrong. The only experience for being a father is being
a father and the only experience for being married is to be married.

I lack the experience to be a doctor or to be a surgeon. Doctors
and surgeons practice, train, experience being doctors and surgeons
for years before they actually become doctors and surgeons.
This experience is invaluable to them to learn, to experience being
doctors and surgeons. They have the specific skill set needed to
become doctors and surgeons.

I had spinal surgery and the surgeon was considered one of the
best spinal surgeons west of the Mississippi, but he had no and
I mean no personality of any kind. He had the
worst bedside manner of any doctor I have ever met, but he was
a great surgeon and I decided to use him. My workmen comp doctor
was in the surgery to watch and he told me that this doctor was
a very skilled and accomplished surgeon. Just no bedside manner.
so which skill do I value? the fact he was a great surgeon or
the fact he had no bedside manner of any kind?
the fact I am able to move today tells me, that given
the choice again, I would pick a great surgeon
over having a good bedside manner. That is the skill set
that was necessary for me to find in a surgeon.

So this idea of having a skill set can be manifest in several
different ways. For example, what skill set do I need to
become a valued member of society? What skill set would I
need to become a better human being? What skill set would I
need to become president of the United States?

Experience tells us what skills set is necessary to accomplish
a certain goal. For example, let us say, I want to climb
Mt. Everest. I would need to get the skill needed to climb
Everest and I would need people around me with the skill sets
to get me to and from Everest. I cannot accomplish climbing
MT. Everest by myself for I lack the necessary skill set to accomplish
that feat. I no longer have the physical skills or tools to
to make that journey. I did once, a very long time ago, but not now.

So it is more then just understanding the skill set needed to accomplish
some task, but the understanding or being realistic enough to know
if I have or might have the skill set to accomplish something.

I play chess but I am not very good, but I keep trying.
Realistically, I will never become a grandmaster or win
the world championship at chess but I can try to become
the best player I can possibly be and that is a realistic goal
for me to achieve. We can only become who we are by
becoming realistic about who we are and what is possible for us.
Experience can teach us about what is possible and what is
impossible for us to reach. I cannot fly by flapping my arms
really fast. I am realistic about what I can accomplish
physically because of my age. I don't believe I can ever
run a marathon ever again but I can run, maybe a mile or two.
I can work at being the best possible person, runner, athlete
or thinker that I can be, given a realistic understanding
of what is now possible for me.

Experience gives us our realistic possibilities for some
doing or actions we might take. But I have a greater
possibilities for, a realistic understanding for what my mind
can do such as philosophy and the study of history
and other such mental activities. I am not as limited
in mental activities as I am in physical activities.
My mind still functions and works at a high level
whereas my body does not. So I go with my current strength which
is mentally, not physically.

Experience can give us general guidelines of what is possible
and what is not really possible. And those older folks whose
days of running marathons are over, can relate to my issue
and those young folks who can still run marathons cannot.

This understanding that experience gives us a knowledge of
our skill set and what is possible and what is not possible
given our current skill set. I cannot run marathons but
I can be president of the United States or I can be a dam
good philosopher or I can relate what is left of my physical skill
set with others who are old like me.

I can still walk many miles whereas because of her declining
physical nature, my mom cannot walk more then a few hundred feet
and she knows it because her experience has given her an understanding
of her physical possibilities and my experience has given me
an understanding of my physical possibilities.

Experience is a tool to understand what is possible and
what is not possible. So what is still possible for you
and what is impossible for you given your current skill set.

This is the value of experience.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6850
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:38 pm

as our understanding of experience has shown us,
we are social creatures, social animals and we rely upon
that socialness to become who we are...…..
what that means is this, as we are social by nature and
to discover who we are also must be social. We judge ourselves
and our place in the universe in terms of our place, our standing
within the polis. In other words, we cannot become who we are without
some understanding of our social place in the human world.

We define ourselves, judge ourselves in regards to other human beings.
It is that association, of a human being in relation to other human beings,
that we define ourselves and judge ourselves. we do not stand in isolation,
by ourselves, when we understand who we are. If we decide to become something,
that something is done in regards to our relationship to other human beings.
I decide to become a nicer person, that is not done in isolation, that is done
as a response to other human beings. I cannot judge my intelligence or
my competence or who I am without other human beings to base
my judgement upon. I define myself with my relationship to other human beings

Comparing and contrasting is the only way we humans have a sense of
who we are and what is the "right" thing to do and what is the "moral" thing
to do and what is the logical/rational thing to do.... All of this is based upon
comparing and contrasting ourselves with other human beings. It is by our
relationship with other human beings that we define ourselves.

It is this comparing and contrasting to others that allows us to discover who we are
and what is the meaning and goal and point of life.

I can only see myself in terms of others human beings. However as I am a man,
I don't allow myself to be judged by others. In other words, when someone
says, "you're an idiot" I simply don't accept their words because I am secure
in who I am. I am not affected by others when they say such things, but
and this is important, I am still defining myself in terms of other people.
Everything I am trying to accomplish as a human being is done in relation
to other human beings. My behavior for example, is not done in isolation
to other human beings, my behavior is my relations to other human beings.

So we have a couple of things going on, first, we define ourselves in
terms of our relations with other human beings. If I am smart or funny
or kind or mean, that is in terms of my relations to other human beings.
I cannot be mean or smart or kind to myself, but I can be to others.

Now one might suggest that I can learn to be kind to myself, however
this leads us to some interesting places. To be kind to myself, suggest that
there are at least two of us, the mean Kropotkin and the Kropotkin that needs
kindness. I have often heard it said that someone needs to forgive themselves
for actions or words, said or not said. but to forgive yourself, you require at
least two people within yourself, the one being forgiven and the one
who is offering the forgiveness. We see again that as Goethe suggested
we are not just one soul but at least two souls and if we have two souls,
why not three or four or eighteen souls within our breast. We have heard
of people having multiple personalities, movies and books are based upon
this scientific fact including the famous one with Sally Fields called "Sybil".
If some people can have this, why not everyone? The only reason
that psychiatrists get called in is because the multiple personalities
interfere with day to day living and that is really all we do, live day to day.

So in my relations with other human beings, I am reacting to others
differently. So with my idiot 26 year old boss, I just ignore him.
And with others at work, I react differently to them based on
my relations to them. In essence, I play different roles at work
and my relationship at home is also more role playing. I respond to
my wife differently then I do people at work and I respond to my daughter
differently then either work or my wife. And I cannot respond to the customers
I deal with every single day, up to 300 customers a day, so I respond to
customers differently depending on if they are male or female or young or
old or if they are douches. We have set customers. People we deal with
virtually every single day and my interactions with them are different
from causal customers and with my co-workers. We human beings, have a series of
complex actions and interactions every single day with different people.
A fixed and set personality would not actually be advisable in my job
because I am forced to deal with a multitude of vastly different people
every single day and I cannot respond to each different person with
a fixed and set series of responses. I must be able to adapt and change with
every single person I meet every single day.

think about Autistic people. They lack the skills of communication and
interactions that I take for granted. They are unable to adapt and change
with encounters with people as I do and I am guessing you do. They only
have one way to interact with people, but human beings to survive
must be able to interact in multiple number of different ways with
vastly different people. to think about it this way, I have a multitude
of different people within me allowing me to act and interact with
other people, but autistic people have only one way to interact with
people. They have but one personality and one soul in their person
and look at what happens? They are unable to effectively communicate
with people. A fixed personality and a fixed soul is a limiting factor
in dealing with people. The trick in being able to have communication
with people is to have adaptable and flexible personalities within us.

We discover who we are in our dealings with and interactions with
other human beings. We become who we are when we understand who
we are in relationship to other human beings.

Philosophy is just another method of understanding that relationship
with other human beings.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:58 pm

it is the relationship between human beings that has
caused or created such things as history and economics
and philosophy and morality and ethics and mathematics
and...……….

For without the relationship between human beings,
we would have no need for any of the disciplines
listed above. A human being alone has no need for any of
those things like philosophy or math or history or ethics or...…

Those disciplines are only needed because we humans,
we humans are social creatures and we must exist together.
We can only survive together or surely we will die alone.
And thus we have these disciplines, that help us in understanding
who we are and what is possible.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:36 pm

So begin to understand that "to be human is to be social".
To be human is to act and interact with our fellow human beings.
that is what it means to be human.

Now let us relate that basic understanding with our social, political
and economic systems. The human being can only exist and become
who they are by involvement with other human beings. That is the basic
human fact we must live with. So any political, social or economic
policy or system that does not address this fact of the human social
nature is doomed to failure. It is by our working together, living together,
playing together and dying together that we humans become humans.
so our political system must be of a social nature. For that is who we are,
social. So we must work for any political system that engages
us socially, politically and economically. So the political system
that is right for human beings is democracy. Not representative
democracy but direct democracy. For representative democracy can
be hijacked by the wealthy and powerful. As it exists right now in
the United States we do not have a democracy, but we have
a corporatocracy. That is the political battle of our age.
to make America a place where the government is

"of the people, for the people by the people"

a true democracy where we the people, the union of human beings have control
over and in charge of our own fate because that is what
is important about being human. Having control over and be in charge
of your own fate, of your own narrative. The quest to be human is
not just a social one or a personal one, but the quest to be human
is a political and social and economic quest.

The economic understanding of the human being is the same.
we are social creatures and we must have an economic system
that allows us to act and interact with each other. That means
that the current economic system of capitalism is not the answer.
The truth is, economic systems like communism is the economic answer
to our understanding of human beings. We must and need to engage with
each other and the only honest way to do that is by social economic
systems like communism.

The final understanding of systems is the social and we must
also discover a new means to that end. We are social creatures
and the answer to us becoming more human is to engage even
further as human beings. The new technology which isolates human
beings is a danger to our well being. The ever increasing "smart phone"
is dividing us into smaller and smaller numbers when we must be
engaging into larger and larger numbers to find our human nature which
can only be found in engagement with our fellow human beings.

we can only become who we are by engagement with our fellow human
beings. The true human being is found in their engagement with their
fellow human beings in the marketplace and the meetings halls
and musical concerts and in the polis. Our political, economic
and social systems must reflect that need of human beings to engagement.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:25 pm

Now one might ask, why not an economic system like
capitalism for our economic system?

and the answer lies in the fact that capitalism is an adversarial
system and the path to our being human lies in our systems
that are about cooperation. It is by the cooperation of human
beings that created who we are and the entire human society,
not by competition or by being adversaries that created
the human being and the human societal system.

If the path to us becoming human is by cooperation and the
organization of human beings, then the path into the future
cannot be by any other way or means. We cannot survive or exists
using adversarial or competition system of the political, economic
or social.

Rome wasn't built in a day and it wasn't built by one man.
The building of Rome took a thousand years and millions of
people. By cooperation and the use of organizations that helped
to build Rome. Rome wasn't built by competition or human beings
being adversarial, it was built by years of cooperation and hard work
and people uniting over generations to build up Rome.
That is the role model of human beings past, present and future.
Generations of people who cooperated and believed in a
future that included all of them, not some of them or not
those who have money or power, but all Romans. For to build
a future must include all, everyone who wants to share in that future.
And that is how an city, organization, ism, myths all become built.
With the energy and motivation of everyone working together, cooperating
to build something that will endure into the future and preserve the past
and engage the present. Any thing that is to be built must have the
energy, passion and motivation of all involved to achieve its goal
and the only way you can get that energy, passion and motivation is
to include people, not exclude people. People become motivated when
they have a stake in both the present and the future. And
having a system that makes cooperation and uniting to achieve
a goal is the way to get that energy, passion and motivation.

creating a system that is adversarial and competitive does not
create a system that engages and motivates and creates passion
in people to begin the process of engagement to create a future.

It is the goal to create engagement within people and then they can
use their energy, passion and motivation to create the future.
and the only way to create energy and passion and motivation is
to include people politically, economically and socially.
Inclusion is the path to engagement and that engagement will
help build the future.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:09 am

The question of experience also includes the search for order.

If you think about it, life, human existence is a battle between
order and disorder. Disorder is the state of entropy that exists
in every single system that exists. Entropy is the loss of energy
in a system and every single system suffers from that particular
curse. So we have disorder in our various systems. We see this today
in the ongoing battle between disorder which is IQ45 and his forces
fighting for disorder and chaos and those on the left who are fighting
for order. Which frankly is not the way these things unfold, but
this is the modern world where nothing seems to go as planned.

We see this battle between order and disorder in every aspect of our life.
Politically, economically and socially. Those who fight for security today
are actually, by their actions, fighting for disorder. It is a strange state of affairs.

The key element of this is the use of energy to increase order or to state
it the other way, combat disorder. Every system is a balance of order
and disorder. Never remaining the same, every changing line or status
between order and disorder. At some point, a system in question will
have a higher level of order and at another point, it will have a lower
level of order (or higher disorder depending on how you say it)

The fight today is over the amount of order that exists within society.
Those who fight for security, are fighting for order (again usually)
and those fighting for freedom, are fighting for a lower level of order,
or greater disorder. I am fighting for liberty/freedom and so I don't believe
in order as the ultimate objective of either the individual or society.
Some mix of order and disorder are required for us to successfully navigate
our lives.

The trick and it is some trick is to find the right line of order and disorder
in our lives, socially, politically and economically AND individually
and collectively. Too much order and we become static, unmoving, unchanging,
stagnant..... to much freedom and we become unstable, variable, unpredictable,
uncertain, capricious...……….

We must find the line between these two extremes.

But how? How do we navigate this difficult balancing act between
too much order and too much disorder?

The key, I think, is to emphasis the values within us. The values
of the higher angels in our human body. We must hold firm to
those values of love and justice and freedom or whatever higher
values you have chosen to maintain our own sense of self, are
own sense of who we are and what is our possibilities.

If we hold onto justice as our core value, then it doesn't matter
what external actions are going on. The battle between order
and disorder are contained by our holding onto the value of
justice which becomes the, to use a word I hate, a lodestar,
in which the outer world doesn't rock us as much because we
have our value or values to center us regardless of the events
happening outside of us...…..In the face of ever increasing
violence and hatred, we can hold our values as a centering piece
of sanity to keep us from losing hope or disinterest in the
world descending into chaos because of the loss of
the higher values in the followers of IQ45. They follow the
lower values of hatred and anger and greed and lust...
and it is condemning them to nihilism because those lower
values only lead to nihilism...…...

The lower values cannot lead one to order or optimism or
understanding. the lower values of anger and hate and greed
leads people to lawlessness, repudiation, terrorism and disorder.

The existential threat to America is this idea of MAGA
and its determination to exist in disorder and chaos
and anarchy and mob rule... the lower values of existence.

It is easy to destroy and bomb and revel in chaos like the
followers of IQ45 do.... it is much, much harder
to build and create and generate or form such much needed
idea's like beauty and honesty and freedom and justice because
those idea's require energy to create, to create order one needs
energy...….. to create disorder and chaos, one only need to
tear things down, as the follower's of IQ45 love to do.

the followers of IQ45 are engaged in their pursuit of disorder
and chaos and lawlessness because it is easy to destroy then to
create and it is easier to hold negative values then to build/create
and to hold higher, positive values.

So the question becomes simple, are you engaged in the pursuit
of order as the resistant movement is or are you engaged in the pursuit
of disorder/chaos/anarchy as the followers of IQ45 are?

Order or disorder?

what do you fight for?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:17 am

We are in a crisis in this country and I believe part of the reason is
the alienation and discouragement we face as American's.

and that alienation and disengagement of American's rise from I think
a couple of factors. One very important factor is the vast difference
between the reality of the American political and economic and social
systems and our theoretical understanding of our political, economic
and social systems.

For example, we have a very nice, clean, well thought out political
system as posited by our educational system with its voters
vote and the representatives do the bidding of the people
and everything has a nice neat place in this political description
and we all know that this very pretty description of our political
system has no relationship to reality in any, way, shape or form.

Part of the cause of the current crisis in America is this difference
between the pretty description of the theory of our political system
and the reality of our political system. Our democracy has been hijacked
by corporate interest and money and the massive infusion of money into
our political system enabled by the best court money can buy,
the United State Supreme court. It is this money that make a mockery
of any description of the theory of our democracy, whereas the
reality of our political system requires us to completely dismiss
the very pretty theoretical discussion of our political system.

It is this clash between the reality of our political system and
the theoretical explanation of our political system that is
creating, in part, our current crisis of American against American.

The left still hold the traditional theoretical understanding of our
political system and the right has not only accepted the reality
of our current political system but the right has embraced the
reality as better fitting of its political agenda which is corporate fascism.

The buying and selling of the politicians which allows the corporate
fascism to suck the American citizens dry of all money, influence and
possibilities. It is this attack by corporate America upon the citizens
of this country that is being fought by the left. The left still believes
in the traditional understanding of our country..... That politicians
actually work for the people of this country and we don't work for
them...….

"government of the people, for the people, by the people"

That is still the standard upon which the left still operates upon.
The right has simply sold its soul to corporate interest for a percentage
of the profits. The root of all evil is money, an adage that is disputed
only by those who stand to gain from money which is the corporations
and politicians. Due to village idiots like IQ45, we have had a very curious
reversal of policies in which the left has been the protector of
the traditional customs and policies whereas the right has
abandon all hope and has simply caved in to special interests
which includes Russia. This curious state of affairs will drive
historians crazy when they try to understand what has caused
the party of treason, THE GOP, to simply bow down and sell this
country downriver for the promised of 30 pieces of silver.

The party of treason has simply sold itself for money and power.
Two things which are by their very nature, ephemeral.

the left still believes in those old fashion idea's like honor
and decency and justice and truth. Virtue's that, I hope,
still mean something in this modern world that has sold
its soul for pennies on the dollar.


Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Meno_ » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:42 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote:We are in a crisis in this country and I believe part of the reason is
the alienation and discouragement we face as American's.

and that alienation and disengagement of American's rise from I think
a couple of factors. One very important factor is the vast difference
between the reality of the American political and economic and social
systems and our theoretical understanding of our political, economic
and social systems.

For example, we have a very nice, clean, well thought out political
system as posited by our educational system with its voters
vote and the representatives do the bidding of the people
and everything has a nice neat place in this political description
and we all know that this very pretty description of our political
system has no relationship to reality in any, way, shape or form.

Part of the cause of the current crisis in America is this difference
between the pretty description of the theory of our political system
and the reality of our political system. Our democracy has been hijacked
by corporate interest and money and the massive infusion of money into
our political system enabled by the best court money can buy,
the United State Supreme court. It is this money that make a mockery
of any description of the theory of our democracy, whereas the
reality of our political system requires us to completely dismiss
the very pretty theoretical discussion of our political system.

It is this clash between the reality of our political system and
the theoretical explanation of our political system that is
creating, in part, our current crisis of American against American.

The left still hold the traditional theoretical understanding of our
political system and the right has not only accepted the reality
of our current political system but the right has embraced the
reality as better fitting of its political agenda which is corporate fascism.

The buying and selling of the politicians which allows the corporate
fascism to suck the American citizens dry of all money, influence and
possibilities. It is this attack by corporate America upon the citizens
of this country that is being fought by the left. The left still believes
in the traditional understanding of our country..... That politicians
actually work for the people of this country and we don't work for
them...….

"government of the people, for the people, by the people"

That is still the standard upon which the left still operates upon.
The right has simply sold its soul to corporate interest for a percentage
of the profits. The root of all evil is money, an adage that is disputed
only by those who stand to gain from money which is the corporations
and politicians. Due to village idiots like IQ45, we have had a very curious
reversal of policies in which the left has been the protector of
the traditional customs and policies whereas the right has
abandon all hope and has simply caved in to special interests
which includes Russia. This curious state of affairs will drive
historians crazy when they try to understand what has caused
the party of treason, THE GOP, to simply bow down and sell this
country downriver for the promised of 30 pieces of silver.

The party of treason has simply sold itself for money and power.
Two things which are by their very nature, ephemeral.

the left still believes in those old fashion idea's like honor
and decency and justice and truth. Virtue's that, I hope,
still mean something in this modern world that has sold
its soul for pennies on the dollar.


Kropotkin



Peter , it had to, because its really broke, indebted and printing money like crazy, , 40 or more per cent of the gross national income is going to interest on the debts. It an overblown elephant, and both parties know it, and they cooked up a pian to device this story to intrigue the public as to what really is going on.

What is really going on is that Trump is an amusing old man, who is run by the corporate Internationale, some of which are based in other parts of the world, who really don't care for the ugly American, all they care for is profit. This whole thing is a necessary act to keep things together, because we are and so is the whole world tired of repressive government, especially the newer generation, and the facades and the masks are increasingly difficult to form real people. This is not Trump' s fault, it is the fault of rapid expansion of world wide industrialization, population growth, and massive production of products which degrade the quality of life.

On top of all that, they want US style freedoms, which are not affordable even here. Freedom is just another word , because gross consumerism is really. bondage. This is the crux, and poor. broke Trump, on a very short leash to bankruptcy banks was given this must do, or else scenario.

He is not the boss, neither is the other protagonist , Putin.

China holds the debt, and our payments to the national debt is a large part of the pie.

They are all acting to save this system, while trying to psych each other and the public out, beginning to disbelieve the magic formula of laissez faire

No one person, society, or prez is responsible, it is the devaluing of human nature which is at stake by denoting the quality of life.

That is the Birth of Tragedy in modern life, the faulty reconstruction of humanity without a real mold or model, and the cracking of the social mask.

However there is no quick fix, and we should pray to the Good Lord that when the world goes bonkers, it will not happen because of the ideals upon individual psychology which have faltered our senses.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:40 pm

Meno, after reading your post, I am not sure
what you are proposing? As a solution, should
we just give up or should we fight back or should
we be doing something else?

It is not enough to diagnose an illness, we must
also be ready to seek a cure. And what is your cure
for what ails America? What is the solution to our illness?


Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:34 pm

I suggest that we are ill/sick because of several different factors.

One: we are suffering from society's nihilism. Society in its pursuit of
profits/money has negated humans and their values. This nihilism
is quite evident in America's reaction to the death of black people
at the hands of the police. OH WELL. Is pretty much the response
of white America to the unnecessary deaths of its citizens. We have
become immune to the gun violence that exists in America.
and this becomes evident in where we show our outrage.
A dog lock in a hot car garners much more passion then
a dozen deaths in a church or a synagogue.
That is nihilism, pure and simple.

two. We favor or champion the corporation over the individual.
This is another form of nihilism. When we give massive tax cuts/breaks
to immense and out of control mulitnational corporations instead of
funding programs which feed and cloth and house the young or old or
the infirmed. That is nihilism where we consider the health of a multinational
corporation to be more important then the health of our citizens.

Three. When we just watch as the mentally ill president attacks
those instititions that are needed to keep America running like
a free press and a working state department and the judicial system
and institutions that must be outside of presidential control like
the FBI and the CIA. Personally, I despise these institutions but,
but if we must have them, then we must insure their institutional
integrity by making sure they are independent of outside influences
like presidential or congressional interference.

As a people we are not free if we don't have these institutions
working, doing their jobs independently of outside influence.

And all of this comes against a background where we don't know
what we want to accomplish as a people. We are against things,
but what exactly are we for?

That is the failure of the conservative mindset. It is against many,
so many things. It is the party of no for a reason, but what does
the country and the party of no actually stand for?

To what do we say yes to, outside of massive and
crippling tax cuts/welfare for the rich?

What do you say yes to?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Meno_ » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:02 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:Meno, after reading your post, I am not sure
what you are proposing? As a solution, should
we just give up or should we fight back or should
we be doing something else?

It is not enough to diagnose an illness, we must
also be ready to seek a cure. And what is your cure
for what ails America? What is the solution to our illness?


Kropotkin




I am unsure, either. But cures are different, sometimes the cure comes from one end , the individual needs to cure himself somehow, through a kind of wholeness which only he knows for himself, and that is one way.

The other is through social cure, and that is even harder because, it involves so many regions, groups, and institutions who at times falter in their effort to join forces and link up their psychic manners of treating themselves under and over so many dissolute , sets of boundaries.

These boundaries must interphase with each other through whatever means less violent ones, absorb each other integrating their feelings with the know-how out there, whether they be of technical and human combined, without the fear and hesitation which always accompanies major shifts in policy or technique.

To bring this down to application, see man must have faith in his instincts to survive, and not put up barriers.

Bring it down to earth, so that everyone can gain knowledge in the actual kindness of creation through self creation.

Do not find fault before accepting your own and treat your brother as you would treat yourself, and present yourself as you accept to understand others.

These are foundemental challenges in a near faithless world, but perhaps this gross entropy we are all experiencing now, may mean nature's efforts to regain something very ancient and forward signaling that even when we hit the bottom, its only a part of what's going on, and a person who does think he hit bottom, can and must get up and try again.

Its like the myth of Sysiphus , who carries a heavy load up a mountain, so unbearably heavy that it almost kills him and when he almost made it a few Liu chez from the top, he can't beat to push it over and it is flung back by the enormous force of gravity.

Now he is near the top but can't get on there, because he looses all energy to do that because he lost his load, his object to live for, and he has to descend again into the lower realms to find the source, the mitherload of his search.

And then he starts all over, but not without hai ing more energy whi c he can not recapture by the use of his memory, but he needs to connect with the added energy gained through more and more trials.

And the energy is there in a store down below and its free , but the price is there in different forms and it is up to him to mine it out.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:41 pm

I took a few days off to think about an answer...….


What is the status of our "Present age"?

Look about you. What do you see?

I see fear and the stench that comes around when we are driven
by fear. Our present age is not lacking in passion. God knows what passion
we mere mortals have unleashed upon this mortal coil, no, no, our age lacks
reflection. We are unable to simple stop and wonder what has become of us.
Instead of reflection, we wield our passions as a sword. The problem lies with
the fact that our passions have been muted, made impotent, by our desperate
need to fit in and be part of the "civilized" crowd. It is simple uncool to wonder who
we are and what are we to be? I wonder who in this "modern" age actually
sits down without all that technology and ask, ask themselves a simple question,
engages in simple reflection about "who they are"? Who is so uncool as to
begin the engagement with themselves as to the nature of being?
It is so unmodern to wonder, to engage with oneself as to the nature
of who we are. For don't the ads tell us who we are...… become part of
the Pepsi generation. Be all you can be in the army. Buy our deodorant
and all the women will throw themselves at you. Didn't you know?
Listen to the ads and everything will be understood. The ads offer us
glimpses into images of who we might be. We the advertisers, we
can sell you an image of role playing game, want to play "The player"
easy enough, want to be the cool trend setter, done, just buy our product
and you are that trend setter. It is not being we are interested in but
we are interested in becoming that image of being. For the fact is, that
to become, being something, is hard work, whereas if we can purchase
a image of being, it is a lot easier. We can proclaim our status of, our image
of a ladies man or a trend setter or a trust fund baby, by simply buying
the correct image with a car or a house or trendy clothes or a styling haircut.
We don't actually need to be any of these things if we are simply an image of
those things. The image, that is what is important, not the being for being
takes effort and hard work and self-reflection that simply doesn't fit into
our days because our days is filled with yoga classes and tai chi
and we simply don't have the time to engage in self-reflection.

And why do we plays this game of creating an image of ourselves instead
of actually taking the time to work on understanding who we are?

Why hasn't anyone told you Kropotkin, that the world is "owned" by the
(pick your choices) the Jews, big business, the trilateral commission,
the illuminate, the freemasons and we don't stand a chance against this
"evil" group that runs everything and so we simply don't reflect upon
matters that we have no control over...………… It is simpler to engage
in playing images then to understand how the world really works.

Self reflection means we might actually have to do something about
what we find out and we simply don't have time, you know with being
unable to switch the yoga class and everything...….

We are sleepwalking through the world, through our lives because we
refuse to engage in any type of serious personal engagement with
who we are and who we might become. God forbid we engage with
self reflection because it might interfere with our social life or our school
work or making money. Being part of the process, being part of the system
is more important then understanding what that system has done to
negate our being and our values..... the nihilism of the system is more
important then engaging in any serious self reflection of our being, of
who we are and what we might become.

We are sheep hiding behind some image we have bought on TV,
pretending to be something when we are fearful of any type of
engagement with the serious task of discovering our true nature.

the young, they demand respect because they have no respect
for who they are. that they have no idea of who they are and
what is possible for them but that very thought frightens them
and so they hide behind the demand for respect...……
respect is earned, not given.... so earn that respect by
the honest engagement with who you are, not with the image
you have bought, but the true self that you are...……

We old people, we are guilty of sins ourselves...…

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:40 pm

and what are the sins, the crimes of the old people?

We preach values we ourselves don't follow. We proclaim ourselves
Christians and we practice violence and prejudice and bigotry
and intolerance and hatred. We find it abhorrent to have someone
proclaim their Pagan or atheist viewpoints, and yet we "Modern"
souls find it necessary to proclaim to any who will listen, that
we are "Christian" in our viewpoint but we are anything but "Christian".

We preach values we ourselves don't follow... that is our crime, that is our sin.
This disconnect between our preached values and our actions has created
a divide in our souls that cannot be healed by yoga classes or repenting to god.....

We "know" we are guilty of crimes and yet, we absolve ourselves with a slight of hand
declaration of values that we violate every single day.


To practice what we preach.... that is the modern dilemma.....
for to practice what we preach requires us to be honest and an honest person
is very, very, very hard to do these dishonest days. For to be honest requires
us to suffer the stones thrown by other dishonest people, people who
also don't practice what they preach, but they hide their dishonesty
with loud proclamations of how guilty everyone else is, in not practicing what
they preach...……...the symbol of the modern age is the double standard
that everyone practices, preaching values that they do not follow.....
This double standard is another sin, another crime of us old folks.
We sin every single time we accuse others of crimes/sins we commit
every single day...…….. We are dishonest to the core if we don't follow
the values we preach. If we preach values, we must then follow those values
even if the cost to us is the modern version of running the gauntlet.....
which is public attack and ridicule and charges of hypocrisy by those
who practice hypocrisy on a daily basis. We old folks play these foolish games
of charging each other with failure to be a "modern" person.
To be "modern" in this day and age, requires us to preach values we don't
practice and to be hypocrites about it when we accuse others of preaching values
they don't practice.

What does it mean to be an honest person these days? Just someone
who proclaims that these are my values and actually attempts to practice
those values...… That is why Gandhi is so important. Not because
of what he accomplished but because he proclaimed values and he
attempted to follow those values... even if he failed, it doesn't matter because
he attempted to be an honest man in an dishonest modern world. He practiced
the values he proclaimed... who among us has been so "truthful"? Only a "modern"
man would proclaim values and then practice values opposite of the proclaimed
values. Only a "modern" man would be so disingenuous as to accuse people of
practicing values that they themselves don't follow.

Hypocrisy, thy name is called "American values". IQ45 is not the progenitor of
our modern hypocrisy, proclaiming values that we don't follow", no, IQ45 is
simply the conclusion of our modern sins/crimes of preaching values
that we do not follow...……. IQ45 is a "Modern" man because he stand for nothing,
acts for nothing, believes in nothing outside of the modern values which is nihilism,
the one, true god of America. The negation of human beings and their values...…
that is the true "modern" crime/sin.... we negate and negate and negate, all the while
accusing others of not practicing what they preach. We negate when we follow money/profit
to the exclusion of human beings and their values. This negation is our hypocrisy.
We proclaim ourselves to be a "Christian" nation and yet we negate those values in pursuit
of profits and we proclaim to have as our values, "Truth, justice and the American way of life"
and yet, we negate those values when we pursue money/profits to the exclusion of
all other values. We are so practiced in hypocrisy that we don't even see it anymore.
We proclaim values that we don't even pretend to follow anymore. and what of the honest man?

the lonely soul who proclaims their values and then, and then has the audacity to
actually attempt to follow those values.... We ship those people into jails
and prisons and mental institutions because they threaten the status quo
of following our modern hypocrisy of proclaiming values we have no intention
of following. ………. it is tough to be a "modern" person, when we must
be hypocrites to appear to be "true" American's. It is a sad state of affairs
when we elect vast number of hypocrites to be our so called "leaders".

And the modern hypocrite will say, the left is no better then the right
and thus missing the entire point. You, you, you are the hypocrite
and I am the hypocrite and we are all hypocrites when we speak of
left/right. When we need to be asking ourselves this final question,
am I practicing what I preach? If not, then we must become "unmodern"
and find out what are the values we should be holding and practicing?

What values should we preach and what values should we practice?

that is the only question that we "moderns" should be asking ourselves.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:06 pm

Until we engage in this question of values, what values should
we have? any other question is bullshit. About the question of
gender or politics or abortion or race or migrant caravan is simply
avoidance of the real question of values. Which values should
we have and then we should preach those values...…. that
is the only question of our "modern" age. The only question
an individual should have is about values, what values are my values
and what values should I engage with? All other questions are simply
bullshit. I must begin by knowing myself and understand
the values that I was indoctrinated with, what values were
impressed upon me as a child. Then after knowing thyself, comes
the engagement with this question of, if not those values, then
what values? and then comes the next step, after I discover
what values are my values, my real values, then comes the part
where we become who we are by engaging in those values,
we practice what we preach, by engaging in values that we have
become...……. We have learned what values are our "real" values
and we engage with and become and practice those values.

And until we are honest with ourselves about what values
should we hold, we shouldn't be quite so quick to accuse others
of hypocrisy when we ourselves fail to engage with or to practice
what we preach.

What values are my values? that is the only question I must ask myself.
What values are values that I should engage with? What values are values
that can lead me from ignorance to knowledge? I must become those values,
values like honesty and tolerance and love and justice and truth. That is the point
of having those values is to practice those values and not to preach values
I do not engage with. Become who you are by practicing the values you are.
That is the modern question. It is not enough to preach values but we must
begin to live them and anything else is simple bullshit......

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6850
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Meno_ » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:01 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:Until we engage in this question of values, what values should
we have? any other question is bullshit. About the question of
gender or politics or abortion or race or migrant caravan is simply
avoidance of the real question of values. Which values should
we have and then we should preach those values...…. that
is the only question of our "modern" age. The only question
an individual should have is about values, what values are my values
and what values should I engage with? All other questions are simply
bullshit. I must begin by knowing myself and understand
the values that I was indoctrinated with, what values were
impressed upon me as a child. Then after knowing thyself, comes
the engagement with this question of, if not those values, then
what values? and then comes the next step, after I discover
what values are my values, my real values, then comes the part
where we become who we are by engaging in those values,
we practice what we preach, by engaging in values that we have
become...……. We have learned what values are our "real" values
and we engage with and become and practice those values.

And until we are honest with ourselves about what values
should we hold, we shouldn't be quite so quick to accuse others
of hypocrisy when we ourselves fail to engage with or to practice
what we preach.

What values are my values? that is the only question I must ask myself.
What values are values that I should engage with? What values are values
that can lead me from ignorance to knowledge? I must become those values,
values like honesty and tolerance and love and justice and truth. That is the point
of having those values is to practice those values and not to preach values
I do not engage with. Become who you are by practicing the values you are.
That is the modern question. It is not enough to preach values but we must
begin to live them and anything else is simple bullshit......

Kropotkin





A brief sub analysis as to the underlying causes of why I believe you are on the money.

Religion successfully covered the object: carried up the hill by Sysyphus, even to the brink of faith: and then the final break, and angst and despair set in.

People were unable to carry willfully an object, that lost its value, because they started to remember it, and fear its total loss, intuiting that they can never really reach the goal of setting foot on that plateau, by the time the goal appeared within sight, it has lost a lot of that value, it somehow diminished.

Now the cover was no longer necessary, because there was so little left; to cover.

So now the clincher. The angst developed into the fear, the specific fear of mortality with no returns, and it was based on perception of the futility of the goal related to the value of being, as an existential crisis, foremost as apart in alienation.

More and more got alienated, and the more it got uncovered from families , particularly the heads of families : the Father.

So they needed support. Social support. They needed it more as the ideal families started to fall apart, in proportion to it.

It has slowly resulted in a crisis, where the father started to leave the family, and the mother had to take over.

The mother had to become self sufficient, and increasingly sought help from agencies that could give a hand to increase her perception of security.

What resulted is a willingness to trade ideal values for security. The need to become somebody that could face life and death with more and more like people, which added to the feeling that if they were to become more alike, then the fear of will be perpetually diminished, since they did not fear lookin. through an ideal state as the father did , but envisioned a perpetuum of alike and liked , by familiarity, their own families disintegrating and becoming dysfunctional , they pine for familiarity, of resembling qualities in people.

And most of it done in remembrance of the Son, their son.

How is this significant?

This is hard to understand , but in developing countries qualities and characteristics are more valued as racial characteristic then cross national-political Alliances.

The mortal fear is allayed somewhat by global identifocation of power motives, and the prior colonisation does bode for trouble when reactions start to pop up , as they are now, in many parts of the world.

The fear of eruption and subsequent suppression of them, create the overall con flirting tableau, to those, who think that short term band aid affects will fool such large cover ups, by clever oratory based on contradictory subterfuge.

However given the extremely ideological machines on both sides, of is yet a matter of conjecture which set of advertised program will be more credible overall.. The enormous power of the U.S. military empire , holding together by the threat of unlimited war, caused pop ups all over the world. Angela of Germany resigned, under tremensous pressure May of Britain is under constant pressure by a male dominated international syndicate.

That is the real name of the game, and both sides do have warranted gripes not at all in conjunction with internationally cohesive sane dialogue, and all fear the oncoming insanity of a probable real war.

To avoid it , it is imperative that a cohesive and stable multi leveled political standard be set, regardless of those few power mad , who would see it as an opportunity to radically reduce population as a.solution, and profit qualitatively, at least.

Imagine some very uncompromised and ill informed men. with members of their tribe conjoined , relishing the thought of survival on their retro-looking terms into the manna loaded haven of qualifying a new life with a new oncoming vision of nature's blessing. of retributive solutions. .

Impossible? That is why I think naive realism such as you presents makes a lot of sense.
Last edited by Meno_ on Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Meno_
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:48 pm

I thank you Meno for your engagement with these matters.
I appreciate your thoughts on this... It is irrelevant if I
agree or disagree, the point is you are engaging with your
own thoughts and that is what matters. Please continue to
engage with what really matters which is the pursuit of
what makes us human and what are our possibilities.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Posts: 6850
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:48 pm

How do we justify our actions and our beliefs, either
to ourselves or to others? I hold the belief that there are
UFO'S and I hold this belief because I saw a UFO when I
was a kid. So I hold this belief and I justify it because I
was a personal witness to it. I don't need outside evidence
or other witnesses because I can attest to my own evidence.

How would I justify other beliefs of mine? I hold the belief
that liberalism is a far better idea about the nature of human beings
instead of conservativism. How do I go about justifying this belief,
either to myself or to others. Upon what standards would I use to justify
my "liberalism" belief? I can justify my belief with "evidence" such as
human beings are by nature, social creatures. We do not exist as
conserervatives claim, we are not single, solitary, afraid of everything
creatures. The vast majority of Americans don't own guns because we aren't afraid,
the percentage of Americans who actually own guns is around 17 or 18%.
We belong to many different social societies. The human being who tries to
exist alone, will soon die alone. A single, solitary human cannot exists....
it is as simple as that.

The very basis of the conservative understanding of what a human being
is wrong. The liberal understanding of people fits what we know about
human beings. A liberal description of human beings better fits the facts about
human beings. And isn't that the point of our descriptions of reality? To find
the best description of reality we can find and then use that description to
better understand our reality? Science uses math and systems understanding
to better describes reality and the better description of who human beings
are is the liberal description of human beings.

So I can justify my belief in Liberalism because Liberalism better
describes human beings as they exist today.

OK, so let us continue this understanding of the way we justify
our beliefs. A belief that exists and is common among uneducated
people is that White people are superior to black people. It is a belief.
So how does one justify that belief? The facts certainly don't support
that belief. So how can one hold that belief? we have several categories
of beliefs and some beliefs are fact base. I belief the Earth is 93 million
miles away from the sun. I hold this belief because it is a scientific fact.
I personally cannot prove that the earth is 93 million miles away from the sun,
but people like scientists can make the calculations and prove that the
earth is 93 million miles away from the sun...… I can't but people with
actual math skills can.

But with a belief like the one that whites are superior to blacks have
no scientific basis, has no facts to support it, has nothing to suggest it it true.
It belongs in the second category of belief which is faith base beliefs.
I believe in god. That is a faith base belief because there is no evidence
of any kind to support that belief. One might say, but I saw god.... Insist upon
that too much and the men in the white coats might come for a visit. I
hold evidence for god existing because I saw god or I heard god or I felt god's
presence. There are no facts there, just some faith that a being called god
exists and you in some fashion witnessed him. the problem lies in motivation
for seeing god. I did not have any motivation to see a UFO. It wasn't part
of the habits, ism's, ideologies, myths, superstitions of my childhood
indoctrinations. To suggest I had some ulterior motive to claim to witness
UFO's is to suggest that didn't care about the fact that at the time of my
witnessing a UFO, it wasn't cool or something everybody did. To state you
witness a UFO is to ask for ridicule and people laughing at you. Now days
it is not a thing to claim to have seen a UFO, Jimmy Carter says he saw
a UFO. No one ridicules or laughs at you anymore. but when I saw it,
about 1969, it wasn't something you admitted to. It was a sign
of existing outside of the group and being "out there". It was a negative.

So what is the motivation of seeing "god". I would suggest that most
people who see god or hear god or have some intimate knowledge of god
also grew up in a religious household where part of the childhood indoctrination
was about belief in god. All knowledge, every that has ever occurred to us,
still exists in some fashion in our soul or body or mind. We still have
memories of our childhood indoctrinations somewhere in us. That memory
still lies within us and that is what comes out in someone who claims
to have witness god in some physical fashion.

We have a president who is racist, a bigot, sexist, a pathological liar,
and hate minorities and the handicap. Just how does he justify his
beliefs? What standards does he use? The standard he uses is money and color.
Everything including people is judge by the money they have and the color
of their skin. Two standards that mean absolutely nothing.... the color of ones
skin has nothing to do with who a person is..... Skin color is just an accidental
trait, like being 6 feet tall or having brown hair or having 6 fingers. These traits
are simply accidents of birth, nothing more. You don't judge people on accidental
traits because those people had nothing to do with the creation of those traits.
and money, most people of wealth were born into wealth. Bush jr was born into vast
wealth as was IQ45. Being born into wealth is also an accident of birth. I was born into
wealth and by age 10, we were poor, dirt poor. So which Kropotkin would you judge me by,
the being born in wealth or being poor by age 10? And I had nothing to do with
either Kropotkin. I had nothing to do with the wealth at birth and nothing to do
with the poverty at age 10. So how would you judge me? With evidence that
I had nothing to do with? Accidents of birth? Might as well judge me by being
5ft 8inches tall because I had nothing to do with that either. To hold beliefs
based on such accidents of birth in regards to skin color or wealth is silly.

So upon what standards should we hold our beliefs? Should I really
consider whites to be superior to blacks based on some fantasy about
accidental traits in birth?

We must base our beliefs upon facts. Facts that have some basis in reality,
like human nature is closer to the liberal vision of people instead of
the conservative vision of people which is less fact base and more
like childhood indoctrinations that were never examined or understood.

More on this later as I must get ready to go to work.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:05 pm

So I hold X..Y...Z beliefs. How would I justify holding those beliefs?

Belief X is the belief in GOD. Now how would I justify such a belief?
Well, everyone believes in god. UH no, not everyone believes in god.
The belief in God is the only way to understand the universe.
UH no, there are dozens if not more ways to understand the universe
outside of a belief in god. One might say, God is the answer to all the
questions. UH no, there are many answers depending on the questions.
It is rare that there is only one answer to one question. Most questions have
many different answers. Some of course better then other answers, but still
many answers are available for one single question. What time is it? That
question depends upon where you are. Here in California, it is 9:30 in the morning.
Where you are changes the answer.

I hold belief Y....which is the belief in Liberalism. I believe in liberalism
and that it is the best way into the future. How can I justify that belief?
I can say that Liberalism best matches what we know about human beings.
I can raise my arguments and you can raise your arguments. We may never
have an answer because the answer requires a value judgement.
You judge by some chosen standard that the question is answered this way.....

I say Barry Bonds is one of the top 5 best baseball players of all time...
and the stats support my assertion. But you may state as part of your
argument, that Bonds "juiced" and that disqualifies him from any debate
about the top 5 best baseball players. Your statement however is a value
judgement. You use some other standard outside of stats to determine
his top 5 status. Now it is said that Babe Ruth was the greatest player of
his time, but and this is important to note, that blacks were not
allowed in the MLB at that time. It was white players only and so,
we are unable to correctly judge who was the greatest player of his time
because of the prejudice of the time. In fact an argument can be made
for a black player named Oscar Charleston to be the best player of that era.
So any answer on this type of question depends upon the criteria used.
So by cherry picking the criteria used, one can make the case that
IQ45 is the best president of all time. Of course, the truth is he is the
worst president of all time.

But that is the point of value judgements. It can be used to justified
anything depending on the criteria used. How you judge something is
just as important as why you are judging something. And that leads us
back to beliefs. Our belief system is a value judgement system.
What values are we judging and why those values. Is the most
important value of the president, honesty? Then Jimmy Carter becomes
the best president of all time. Is the value used for president character,
then we might suggest Carter or maybe Lincoln. The value itself
determines our understanding of the best president. Even the word
"best" can be understood in terms of what criteria we used to decide
what the word "best" means.

It is my belief that much of our judgements made like best president
or best ball player depends upon the criteria used and that is nothing
more then a decision on values. what value or values do we use to make
our judgements upon.

so the question of our beliefs is really a question of what values
are we using.

If I hold these beliefs, what values am I employing?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:47 pm

If our beliefs simply a value judgment system, then
we ought to understand our values. What values are
you interested in? and that understanding, determines
what your beliefs are. My value system determines
my beliefs or more correctly, it should. We often
just accept the value system indoctrinated in us as
children and we return to the question of our childhood
indoctrinations. Everything is connected. You just have
to understand the connections to make sense of your life.


Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:54 pm

Or perhaps the question of existence, the problem of existence
is simply a question of what values are we going to value.

Therein lies the 20th and 21st century question, what are the values
that we shall follow. You might say, that the last 118 year have simply
been a battle over what values we shall live under. If you pick IQ45
with his Nazi dictatorship, then you are choosing certain values and if
you pick democracy and freedom, you are picking other values.

the question of beliefs is simply a question of which values shall
we uphold. what values shall you uphold?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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