a new understanding of today, time and space.

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:34 am

we have values and we have actions...…for the actions to be successful
we must have the right values

so let us give another example.....

a man enters a relationship with a women....
he has the values of hate, of anger, of greed and of lust....
I predict that relationship won't work or succeed.....

a man is alone again..... for a man to succeed in his goal of
finding a mate, a wife....he must find a women with whom he
share the same values with...….if a man enters a relationship with love
and compassion and charity..... he will far more likely have a successful
relationship...…. not a guarantee but a better chance of success...…

so, if a man enters a situation, he must first decide upon the his values...
and if the situation fails, it might have been the values the man brought into
the situation...….the situation required one set of values and the man brought
another set of values, the wrong values to that situation.....
and situation failed..... the results weren't good.... and then the man
can learn from that situation...….. that is how we learn...….

but the key factor in learning is understanding the values we brought into
any learning situation and every situation is a learning situation...……

sometime aggressive actions are required in some situations....
but don't bring aggressiveness into every situation.... learn
to understand every situation...….. not every situation requires the
exact same values...……. and yet people quite often take the same values
into every situation and when the situation fails, they never take a look
at the values they brought into the situation.. they will blame something else....

every situation that fails must be understood in terms of the values that
situation required and what was brought into the situation value wise...….

we need to learn what situation requires what values and what values
will work in different situations...………. the one, values, requires the other,
action and they must engage together.... you need values to match the
situation and the situation must match the values.... otherwise you tempt
failure...…….. and only after the situation resolves itself, the end results,
then you can begin to understand the role of values and the action taken.....

you understand the results as a question of values... where the right values in
place in that situation? and if the right values weren't in place and you had
failure, then what values were the right values for that particular situation...…

our understanding of reality now becomes a question of the values used
in what situation and what situation required what values...……

that is the new reality...… a question of values and their uses...…..

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:36 pm

so we have questions of the modern age...…
and they come from the Kantian questions,
what can we know, what are we to do, and what can we hope for?

but we don't exists in a vacuum, we exists in the middle of …………. life...…

and part of life is the indoctrinations by society in the myths, habits, biases,
prejudices and superstitions that society has and wants you to have...….

we also exists in the "modern" age...…… or perhaps its the "postmodern"
age, I can't tell them apart...…anyway...….

and we have values...… so the question becomes how to connect these different
aspects of our lives...……

the modern age or was it the postmodern, anyway, this age has its own
values...… they are easy to spot...……… what do we value?
we value money...….. and our side values support this one basic value.....

we value punctuality, we value efficiency, we value obedience.... all very
useful values for making money...…..

"so what can we do" in light of our modern values?

the only choice that is offered to us is monetary choices...……..
we must become "contributors" to society.....we don't allow any "deadbeat"
persons or group of people to exists.... we must all contribute to society to
be considered "useful" to have "value"..... upon this fact lies the war on
minorities and women and anyone not considered to have value...…..
women and minorities are not considered to contribute to society
in a "production" or "consumer" aspect...……….. they don't spend enough
money in society eyes to be "contributors" to society or they don't produce
enough goods to be a contributor...…….. and that is how we value people,
by monetary means...… do they contribute in some monetarily fashion
to the "betterment" of society? and by betterment, we mean, do they
contribute to the "bottom line"?

and this "bottom line" is really the end judgement of a society in which
money and profits are the only worthwhile goals...………..

and so modern age answer to "what must we do"... the answer is to
contribute to the "bottom line"...…….we must become profitable in some
fashion to have value...….. no profit, no value.... simple as that...…

my question is simply this, is our contribution to society solely to be based
on the question of the "bottom line?...………

doesn't this question of the "bottom line" asking for a "reevaluation of values"?

I think so...….. but where do we begin?

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:13 pm

and we return with the question of the last post,
we need a "reevaluation of values", but where do we begin?

we know that values must contribute to the "bottom line",
just like people, we must have values that help us make money/profits
or those values are worthless..... if it doesn't make money, it has no
value... that is the modern viewpoint...…

and we know this age of the last 118 years to be a nihilistic one and why?
because values that don't contribute to the bottom line are ignored
and crushed... values like love and charity and peace and justice
and honor have no place in modern society because those values don't contribute
to the "bottom line" and the "bottom line" is the only value worth holding in
modern society...….

those values of however are the values that make life worth living......
it isn't values like punctuality or obedence or efficiency that make life worth
living...... it is values like love and hope and dignity and honesty and compassion
that make life worth living...........the values that are destroyed in the pursuit
of money/profit..............

we make our stand for a new world, not on the bottom line, but on
those values that have been rejected by the modern arbiter of values, modern
corporations............

we begin "reevaluation of values" with an understanding that the answer
to the questions of human existence, the question of the "human condition"
does not begin with the pursuit of money/profit.....or even actions.....

the "reevalauation of values" begins with the values themselves...

not with the actions but with the values...…. we find out what values
are really our values, not the values we were indoctrinated with, but with
values we have come to truly understand is a part of us...…..
to really come to your values, you must first of all, have a "reevaluation of values"
from the value you were indoctrinated with...… and then and only then can you
begin to realize what values are really the values that represent you or you
are.... remember Nietzsche, become who you are.... and that means become
the values that are you..... and how do we do that? we engage with
Socrates with his sentence, Know thyself...……….

see all of these "random" sentences are really part of a larger, overall
understanding of who we are.... we must begin our "reevaluation of values"
with knowing who we are, know thyself, and we can understand what values
are really who we are, become who you are...…………..

it is not the actions that count in our live..... for our actions don't give
our life meaning, it is our values that guide our actions and thus it is
the values that give our life meaning...… so to discover who we are, truly are,
we must begin with values...…. and which values are really the values I want
to live my life by..... not the values that we were indoctrinated as children,
but upon values I find for myself..... and we take those values and apply
them to the actions in our life...….. thus, we begin to take actions only
once we have discovered the values that bring meaning to our lives and
use those values to engage with the actions of our lives...……..

we begin with values...….. and live our life based on those values....
our actions, all of our actions, must follow from our values.....

you want to make changes in your life? begin with the values you have.....

you want to make changes in the government or society, begin with the values
you have and then, then discover what values does the government have or
the society have... and go from there...… the government or society to truly
represent you, must share your values... that is why we are so alienated from
the government or society...….. because we don't share the same values....
the government and society and big business, have different values then you do
and that difference is the basis of our alienation from our society or government or
big business...………

the battle over government that we see today is not the battle of what actions to take
but a battle over what values shall we have...…………

so we have the Kantian question,

What can we know?
what should we do?
what can we hope for?

and now I add one more question to the Kantian questions,

what values should I/we have?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:43 pm

so I might hear someone say, Kropotkin, you have rejected
actions in favor of values? say it ain't so, joe...…….

the question of values and actions seems complicated but it really isn't...…

we find our values, be it love or passion or compassion (see the nearness of
these two words, to be compassionate one needs passion)

anyway, we find our values and then we take actions...…. the actions
will tell if our values are good values, values worth having...…
the actions validate our values, we use actions to understand our values,
and we use actions to determine if our values are useful in any given situation.....

I have used a relationship analogy earlier, a man who has hate as his values,
won't be very successful in his relationships and the actions of the relationship
will tell him that his values are wrong..... he uses hate instead of love
in a relationship and the relationship fails.... he shouldn't think it was
the other person who failed, he should think about the values he brought
into the relationship...… the values define the actions..... if he has
values that allow the relationship to grow and prosper, then he has
values worth keeping.... the action, the success of the relationship,
tells him that...……… our actions are meant to confirm or deny the
worth of our values... we act and then by that action, we can know
if our values are good...……..the action is meant to help us understand
our values...…………. the values comes first, then the action...…

our understanding of action and values is wrong...……..

we must begin with and end with values.... the actions only
tell us if we have values that can allow us to engage with our actions.....

so life is a question of values, not of actions..... we act in support of our values.....

so the question of life is a question of what values do we have and when actions
succeed or fail, then that action should lead us to explore other values that will
allow us to succeed... values are what allow actions to succeed or fail...…..

and so we must focus on the values, not on the actions....for actions can only
tell us if our values are right or wrong...…..

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:24 pm

it is not our actions that define us,
it is our values that define us......

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:50 pm

one might ask, what values do I have?

look at your actions, your values are exposed by your
actions..... your actions state, loud and clear, what
your values are.... but if we change the values, the
actions we have also changes...…………..

so, if your actions are violent, hate filled, having anger,
then that is your values... violence, hate, anger......

if your actions are peaceful, filled with love, offering hope...
then that is your values.. peace, love and hope........

look at your words....... if you repeat racist, sexist, violent,
tirades against women or minorities or gender, then you are
racist, sexist, violent.......... the words and actions condenmn
you..........those are your values... deny it all you want....
but it is true........... be mindful of your speech and be mindful
of your actions.... for they expose to the world what your values are.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:10 pm

we have the values of capitalism which are the values
of greed, lust, miserly, all negative values because they
don't improve any systems be it the system of self or
the family system or the social system or the governmental
system...…..

but what if we ourselves don't hold those negative values of
greed, lust, miserliness..... and we are force into a economic
system that does value those values? how are we to exist
with our value system that is different then the expected
social values of our system, be it economic or otherwise.....

let me give you another example, we have had culture's
and political systems that have had clear and defined values...
an example of this is Sparta.... the only values accepted
were military values.... all training, all education and all values were
involving war and fighting and being militaristic and martial...…

but what of the person, a man who felt different values.. a person
who thought that his personal values were of the scholar or of learning?

how would that person fare in a martial society like Sparta?

we have a clash of personal values and societal values...…..

what of the man today who doesn't value the economic values
of our current society.... what of the man who values/believes
in personal values of sharing, compassion, equality.... in other
words, a man who values are communistic...… that is in direct
conflict with the values of modern society...….

how do we resolve this conflict of values? we ask, what
would Sparta do to a man whose values were different from
the Martial values of society? most likely either execute him
or banish him...………..we don't do either but we do
punish him in other ways...….we call him Liberal in a pejorative
way or we call him a communist also in a disparaging way or
we simply isolate or neglect him...…………
and for the human being, a social creature, isolation is the
greatest punishment one can have...………

so society wants you to protect the system by
drafting you into the army... but your values are
peaceful, pacifistic, non- violent...…. must you serve
in an army that expects you to kill when your own personal
values are against killing?

we see this clash of values every day, where the personal
values clash with the social values of the society or the state...…..

when one's personal values are in conflict with society values,
we have another example of alienation...……… how do we resolve
these conflict of values between the individual and the state/society/culture?

which leads us to a second question, should we hold our own personal
values even to the point of death? how strongly should we hold our
personal values.... should we hold those personal values even to the point
of being punished by the state...……..

we read in history books of the long battle between the values
of the Roman Empire and the values of the Christians...…..

we see that for over 200 years, the state did battle over this question
of values with individuals to the point of the state executing those whose
values are different then the state...……………… this battle of values is not
just an ancient one...….. we have wars over different value systems
such as the Nazi's and the west value system which was decided by
World War 2...……….

and we see this continuation of the battle in values in the ongoing clash
of the neo-nazi's and forces of the left doing battle in places like
Charlottesville and Berkley...……………. so we have not only the battle
of values involving the state and the individual but within groups of
individuals...…………….. and once again, how do we resolve this?

upon what principle can we all agree upon that will limit these
clashes of values that happen with great regularity...…..

and to continue this thought, we have elections that are simple
peaceful examples of the battle of values...……. we have contested
elections because we have contested values...………… and how are
we going to resolve this conflict?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:31 pm

the original basis of philosophy was not as we know it....
the original basis of philosophy was that philosophy was
a way of life..... it wasn't as we know it, a impartial, impersonal,
series of facts about what certain philosophers believed in.....

we believed that Descartes was interested in creating certainty
especially for the new science..... and each philosopher after
continued on this path of creating certainty for the new science.....

the ancient philosophers wouldn't have considered that philosophy.....
their idea was that philosophy was not just a series of facts but
a way of life....that philosophy was a spiritual exercise and a way of
living out one's life...….Stoicism for example, wasn't just to be studied
but to be lived...…..you went into one of the 4 schools of philosophy
as a way of life... not just studied, but lived.... the 4 schools were
stoicism, platonic, epicureans, aristotlism……………. these schools
are different from what we think of philosophy...……..

we do philosophy,
they lived philosophy

and that is the difference between the ancients and us...…

they weren't about the facts of philosophy but about how to live philosophy....

this idea of living philosophy as a way of life was taken over by
Christianity...…. and here we also just do Christianity instead of
what they did which is living in Christianity... that is the difference
between ancient Christianity and today's Christians..... we do Christianity
and they lived Christianity...……...

one of the things that every school believed in was to
examine thyself...……. the process for every ancient
"philosopher" be it pagan or be it Christian, was to look inward....
the process was involving looking at oneself and not worrying about the
outside world......the problem with this is the fact that so many became
engaged in looking at themselves and ignoring the outside world that the
outside world, collapsed..... the middle ages are a result of so many
people engaging in looking at themselves that there weren't enough people
engaging in the world to keep it going...…….. society became so engage with
examining itself that it didn't have enough people to maintain society...…

so we should engage with looking inward, becoming who you are by
finding the values that you really are, not the values that you were
indoctrinated with.. but your true values that can only be found
by knowing thyself...… but we can't allow to happen what happen
to ancient civilization which is so many become involved in
their engagement with becoming who they are, that we don't
have enough people to engage with society and keep society running....

as with everything else, it becomes a question of moderation.....
but if we engage with moderation, how are we to begin the process
of living our philosophy..... not just doing, but actually living our philosophy...…

we are stuck here..... we must be moderates in our engagement with life,
but to actually live our life philosophically, isn't moderate..... it is fairly
extreme to actually live our lives philosophically, be it philosophy or be
it Christian...…….. do you know of anyone who actually lives Christianity
instead of doing Christianity.... you know, lives it instead of preaching it...…
I don't know of such a person and I doubt you know of such a person
and to honest, I doubt there are a thousand people in all of the United States
that is living Christianity instead of just speaking the words with no
emotional investment....

so how, if at all, should we begin to live our philosophy instead
of doing philosophy? should we begin to engage with philosophy
as a real, livable plan of action or should we just study the words
and say, Descartes began modern philosophy by intellectually
practicing doubt...… for that is exactly what he did...
he intellectually practice doubt... he didn't live doubt,
but he intellectually practiced it..... as all we modern philosophers
do, we intellectually practiced it... we don't live it...…

so, should we engage with philosophy as a way of life or should
we continue to intellectually practiced it?


Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:41 pm

so in the last post, I wrote about how we don't engage in philosophy,
we simply intellectually practice philosophy, with no regards
to the actual, existing world...…..

so, we have to wonder about values....
we have X number of values... so do we also
practice values by simply intellectually spouting off words
that make it seem like we have some values or
do we actually live our values, like the ancients actually
living their philosophy, not just as an intellectual game, but
within the world as part of our day to day living...….

do you engage with values as an intellectually practice or
do you engage with your values as a way of life?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:01 pm

so the question becomes, how does one practice philosophy
as a way of life and still exists within the state??????????

this may be our modern question...… how can we live philosophy
and still peacefully exists within the state?

for it is clear that having our intellectual discourse on philosophical
matters will not interfere with the state for they are intellectual,
not as a matter of a way of life...….. but can we have a philosophical
way of life and still be part of the state?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:18 pm

when I was an anarchist, I easily could have engaged
in intellectual discourse about anarchism, .......

but I didn't, I didn't just engage in the intellectual
practice of anarchism.... I lived the life.....
I was out of the system as far as I could possibly
be out of the system...... the only thing I did in those
years to participate was to vote in the national elections...
I didn't have a bank account, I usually didn't have a car,
I was paid under the table, cash, as far as possible, I
lived the live of anarchism.......... It was a way of life....
by choice......... I was even homeless for a time.....
but I was young.... at my age, being homeless isn't really
an option anymore... I like my couch too much.....

I can see how people have taken a position, be it anarchism
or christian and make it a way of life......... but philosophy,
think about turning that into a way of life..........

it would mean staying true to whatever values you subscribe to,
it would mean that in the conflict between the values the state
wants you to have and the values you deem important, you stay true
to your values even to the point of being punished by the state.....

if you believe in your set of values, you must believe them regardless
of the threats or punishment that you might receive from holding those values.....

but what values are worth that punishment?

I would suggest big values like justice and love and hope
and charity are values worth holding and worth being punished over...….
but ask yourself, why these values? why not other values????????

so what other values are worth holding that are worth life and death?

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:05 pm

so we this collision between the state and the individual....
and that collision is because the values of the state are different
from the values of the individual, whatever those individual values are.....

but let us look at the values of the state....

the state to be successful must enforce certain values upon its citizens....
obedience, sacrifice by the citizen, religion values, (whatever religion the state
allows) but how does the state pick its values? The state picks values that
ensure the state survival...... those values deemed necessary for the state to
continue to survive, those are the values the state wants from its citizens.......

so the state will allow some citizens the freedom to ignore those chosen
values of the state, those citizens are allowed that freedom because
of some value those citizens bring to the state, be it status or knowledge
or wealth or artistic value......... but the vast majority of citizens are
expected and required to follow the values of the state.... think of Sparta
and its martial state... citizens were required to follow those martial
values regardless of what the citizens has for values...... the state comes first....

and we today, have the same process in place, we are expected to
follow the states values, regardless of our own personal values.....

and this is the basis of the collision between the individual and the state
that we see quite often.........think of the fact that homosexuality was
illegal in the United States until quite recently... that that homosexuals
loved and that love was considered illegal because it was love between
two males or two females............ this conflict between the state
and its citizens has been resolved to some extent in the last few years........

but this conflict of values drive our current discourse....
think of liberals and their push for justice, which is equality between
people and the push by conservatives for security...…….. these values
have been in conflict for decades..... or think of the so called "culture wars"
of the last 40 years... they are a battle of values.... between conservative values
and liberal values...……..think of abortion or voting rights or the
military budget, they are all a fight over different values,
played out over specific issues...…...

a budget is a moral document because it is about what values
the government has and those values are highlighted by
specific issues the government funds or defunds for that matter....
if we value old people, then we increase the funding for matters
involving old people, if we don't value them, then we defund those
issues... simple as that......the priority of government and its values
are simply listed in the money spent on projects that the government
favors...….

and a look at the budget, our budget shows that we spend a
vast amount of money on military means, we have a martial
vision of the world, given the money being spent on the military...…
this is a value decision about how we see the world...…

the budget shows the values...…. and social issues that are important
to liberals are not given very high priority and that is shown by
the very little money in the budget to social issues which are simply
values taken to specific issues...………...if the budget shows
us our values, that those values are martial, which are values
about obedience and violence and hate...…

those are the values of the United States and have been the values
of the United States for over 40 years...…….. if the United States
had true believe in the values of love, peace, hope, those values
would be in the budget, but they aren't...…

but what if as a person, I hold those value in opposition
to my state... what if I was a peaceful person in a martial state,
like the peaceful man in Sparta?

my values are in conflict with the values of the state...…
how does this conflict get resolved?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:27 pm

let us recap and see where that leaves us.....

first, we are born, society, parents, media, state, church, spends
years, even decades indoctrinating us into official, canonical
beliefs, biases, myths, ism's, prejudices, superstitions...…

as we age, we soon learn to know thyself.... we discover
ourselves as the victims of this indoctrinations.... we discover
that our views and beliefs are really those indoctinations of childhood...

we attempt to overcome these childhood biases and prejudices...
this is our overcoming of values... those values installed in us as children......

we then become who we are by discovering which values are really the value
that we are...... so the process is to know thyself, to overcome, then to become
who we really are........... at every step it is the values that are discovered
and overcomed....from the values we are indoctrinated with, to the values
we overcome to the values we finally become, for that is who we are, our values.......

past, present and future are all here in our understanding of values.....

we also have our Kantian questions,
what can we know?
we should we do?
and what should we hope for?

and we have the Kropotkin question,
what values should we have?

our understanding of values is that we have both individual values
and we have collective values, values that are shared within the society.....

our collective values is understood best by our federal budget,
for that is a moral document...…….

and we spend the most money in the budget on all things military...
that is our values, we are a martial society with violence and hate
as our primary values...…………

and we wonder why our society is failing today.....
because our investments within society is not
with the people or their concerns but with building
weapons and training and things military...….

those who say we must be secure have won the battle...
and those who fight for justice/equality have lost...…

and we will continue to fail as long as the conservatives win
their battle to be secure instead of fighting for people based
values like justice/equality or freedom...……….

in other words, we are practicing the wrong values given the situation...…
and that is always the path to failure...…………

and we continue...….

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:06 pm

uproar about a paper in middle school and what
we can learn about it...….. there was a middle school
classroom that ask the question, about "whom should we leave behind"
in regards to what if the end of the world came and who should
we take and whom should we leave behind...……

I think this is an excellent question and one that raises several different
types of question..... the uproar by the way, is about the possibilities
the teacher gives the students, given the possibilities, the teacher listed
several different types of people.... what value should we give to each person
as in deciding who we should we leave behind...……….

if we value, intellectual, then we would bring intellectual types,
if we value science, then we would bring scientist
and if we values athletes, then we being them along...…

but in understanding that we leave behind other types of people behind...…

we can focus on types of people, male or females or Christians or Atheist or
black or whites or..... we can divide the world in almost infinite different
ways.... the question itself exposes the limitation of our thinking in terms
of what we value...…………………

do we bring kind, loving people or do we being military types or
do we bring only people who love dogs...…………….

with the understanding that by not bringing a type of person to be saved,
we don't value that quality...……..

if you could save just 12 people on earth, what type of person would you
try to save or whom would you leave behind?

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:24 pm

in trying to understand us..... who am I?
we are also trying to make sense of us in the midst of
the world.... how do we exist in the world.....
who am I in the context of the world....
where is my place in society.....
how do I make sense of society and culture
and the whole dam world....

as I have already condemned various aspect of the world,
the industrial revolution and conservatism and capitalism, I
now point out an unindicted co-conspirator, see IQ45 for
an understanding of that term....

I point out modernism and post-modernism...……

what is modern and what is post-modern?

that is implicit in my writing..... we are living in an modern
age with perhaps post-modern underpinnings...
but who the fuck knows?

and therein lies the problem...…… any dabbling in who we are must
face, as an unindicted co-conspirator, modernism and post-modernism....

what does it mean to us that we are "moderns" or perhaps we are,
"post-moderns"...… I sure the hell don't know and I know you don't know,
so we are left with trying to connect who we are and what are our possibilities
in the face of being in the modern age and what our age, our modern age,
is, is just as important as our understanding of our Kantian questions
and the one Kropotkin question...… what values make it the modern age,
and what values are connected to the "classical" age...… Goethe
speaks of this when he try's to understand the "classical" with the "Romantic"
which was the current rage of the time when he wrote... which he helped create
the "Strum und Drang" movement of Germany during the 1760's and 70's.....

we are still in the Romantic era for we haven't "cured" ourselves of our
"Romanticism"..... so we are still in the "modern" age..... and when we finally
cure ourselves of "Romanticism", we shall begin a new age...…..

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:28 pm

one thing we cannot disconnect is the fact that we cannot
separate "Modernism" or even "Post-modernisms" without
separating it from the industrial revolution..... in fact,
you might be able to say, that modernism is really just
another term for the industrial revolution...…

we must come to terms with what it means to exist,
the human condition, cannot be understood without
reference to the industrial revolution

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:59 pm

wait, what, did you just accuse the "modern" era of being "Romantic"....

yep, in part....let us think about this...….

we have the tyranny of the industrial revolution, the time clock and
the standard uniform of the working class.. and the the greatest
crime in the "Modern" world which is insubordination........

we have has a reaction to that Nihilism, the dramatic
emphasis on the individual and the need for our "modern"
conspiracy theories..........

one small example, Hitler was a "Romantic" and the proof
lies in his need to conspiracies that become anti-semitic
and other conspiracies that exists in response to the
tyranny of the industrial revolution.....

we have "Romantic" responses to the industrial revolution that
include the conspiracy theorist need for conspiracies.....a need to blame
is a response to the tyranny of the industrial age....I am trapped
into this tyranny by the, pick one"..... Jews, gays, Catholics, state...….

this need to blame is a "Romantic" response to the tyranny of the
"Modern" age…..

what does it take for us to escape this "Romanticism"?

to take responsibility for our current state of affairs... instead of
finding blame.... to take responsibility means one is able to
begin the search for an solutions that that will eliminate our "modern"
tyranny...…

but to blame is to try to shift responsibility to someone else, thus
making them the cause for your misfortune instead of yourself...…

the Jews are not the problem, nor are the "uppity" blacks or minorities....

and you cannot find a solution to the problem by "white superiority" or
other such nonsense...….. the only solution that is truly a solution,
is to begin by understanding the nature of our world and then and only then
can we begin to undo the tyranny of the modern world which is lead by
the tyranny of capitalism...…….. the solution is to fight the tyranny at its source,
instead of the so phony, romantic solution in blaming others that are different
from you...…..for they too, are victims of the tyranny of modern world,
the industrial revolution and its foot soldiers, capitalists...….

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:25 pm

But Kropotkin, what the hell does the modern age has
to do with "Values"?

Everything

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:40 pm

Peter Kropotkin: But Kropotkin, what the hell does the modern age has
to do with "Values"?

Everything

K: Did you try to connect the dots between this idea of the "modern age"
and values or.... or did you think to yourself, "I'll wait for Kropotkin's answer"
and forgot about it?

if you tried to answer the question about values and the modern age,
that is engagement thinking...... trying to engage with a subject...


did you think, no, I'll wait for Kropotkin, that is passive thinking...
you didn't engage with the question at hand, you simply waited for an
answer....

and therein lies the problem with the world........ passive thinking,
just waiting for an answer instead of trying to engage and create an answer
without any prompting from Kropotkin or the state or society.......

so the question is life and then the answer is engagement.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:36 pm

after 8 straight days of work, I'm back but values
will have to wait....

Math..... the idea of numbers..... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10...………

we have these numbers..... let us look at the number 1...….

look down at the table and spot one, (1) book..... on my table, the
kitchen table actually... I have 6 philosophy books..... my daughter
books from school, are another 2 books... so I have 8 books on my kitchen table....
pretty simple, pretty basic.........but this idea of one, of one book.........
think about it...... look at the book, I am looking at Copleston's
" A history of philosophy" book two....that is one book.....

but the reality is quite different..... I look at Copleston's book and
what do I see? I see a book... I don't see the number 1 as in one book....
the idea of one is a mental idea, not a physical idea......
I see a book but I don't see any type of number for that book.....

so when I look at my table and I see books, I don't see that there
are 8 books, I see books and mentally, I create the number 8 to
account for the number of books.....in real life, we just see individual
books, I see the "A history of Philosophy" and mentally, I create the number 1...
it doesn't exist physically, the number 1, it is a mental construct.... numbers
are really mentally constructs we use to help us create order and sense in the
universe............I wish I could take credit for this but the credit lies with
Husserl.. numbers are a psychological event, not a physical event....

but what about all those numbers that we use accurately and succesfully
to understand the universe........ let us think about this.....

what came first, the event or the math? I would suggest that the event
comes first and the math comes later......is the event, say the creation
of a black hole, a mathematical event or a physical event?
it is a physical event and the math is done later...… this suggest
that the reason something can be mathematically described is
because the system which is being described is a stable system.....
for example, the solar system, we can mathematically describe the
solar system but that is because the solar system is a stable system...
and so we can quote, backdate it,..... because the system is stable,
it can be mathematically described...… we cannot use math to describe
an unstable system...…..is the failure there, the system or is the failure
the math? so when we describe or use mathematics to understand a system,
we are actually just understanding a system using math... and the math only
works because the system is stable.... it is the stability of the system that
makes the math work, not the math that makes the stability of the system
work...…….

then is the universe a mathematical universe?
no, the universe begins and once a system like a solar
system becomes stable, then and only then will the math work.....

but what about Einstein? his math was able to predict or understand
many things that he didn't know about...……. He created the math
and then later a system was found that fit the math... the system comes first
and the math later, later describes it.... the universe is not a mathematical
universe... it is a systems universe.....and once the systems become stable and
survive then, then it can be mathematized...…….

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:54 pm

why does the universe hang together?

is it because of the math?

no, the math describes why the system hangs together but the system
is not math, but system is...…. and we use math then to describe why
it is.. the value of the system, any system is its stability, not the math...…

and why does the solar system hang together?

not because of math, but because of another system, gravity...
which hangs together because of another system which is space/time...…

space/time is a physical system, not a mathematical system......
space is a physical thing as is time......... and with any, any system
the way it hangs together is the way different systems reinforce each other.....

an example of this is how the human body works, the various systems
reinforce each other... but that is acomplished by evolution...
if the systems don't reinforce each other, the system will fail, become
unstable...... it is that by becoming stable, that the system succeeds...
and then we can mathematically describe that system.......

so, space/time is a physical system and gravity is a physical system
which reinforces the other physical systems like the solar systems.....
not, not because of math, math can only describe the systems,
but not the disorganizations of the system.....

but what about the chaos theory? it is simply a name for this
disorganization of the systems.... it is not the math of this
disorganization but the disorganization itself that is important........

life is simply a study of systems and how they work.....

life is not about the math of the systems for math can only
be used to describe something that already exists and is stable....

an unstable system cannot be described for it is always in the process
of becoming more unstable...… we don't have the words or the math to
accurately describe an system that is in the process of becoming
unstable...….

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:12 pm

ok, the question of continuity..... in math for example,
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10,...…………………………………

the single biggest question in regards to systems is continuity....
expecially in regards to biological systems.........
but it also works in regards to physical systems and
to natural systems......
let us begin with biological systems.... the heart must work,
beat with continuity, it's entire existence.... if the heart
does not continue, it cause such events as a heart attack..
even a brief disruption of the heart's continuation will cause
serious consequences for a human being........

what if, say gravity, for example, briefly stopped working,
this discontinuation can cause serious consequences in our natural
system of the solar system..... the system must continue for
it to be stable........so one of the basic understanding of
systems is this idea of continuation, things must continue
for the system to exist.....

so for a system, any system must rely upon this notion
of continuation.....so for us, we must hold onto this idea
of continuation for our understanding of systems......

it is one of the reasons for the stability of systems......

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:39 pm

now what drives systems?

why that is energy...…. we use energy all the time.....
I ate breakfast this morning and I am using that converted food
into energy... but that is the nature of the universe.....
we convert matter into energy and we also, convert energy
into matter..... this is basic in E=Mc2... energy equal mass....

matter and energy convert into each other and you cannot destroy
either one... the amount of matter and energy remains the same
in the universe..... but, that leaves us the question of entropy....
a body over time gain in entropy.. which is really a body become
more disorganized over time........ we see this in the human body
over time......I am 59... my body has been losing it ability to
function over time.... I can no longer do the things I could do
when I was 20, like run 15 miles or stay up all night drinking and
and then go to work at 9:00 in the morning like nothing happened.....
my body energy level has gone done.... this is entropy.. at work
in my body......

but that energy lost from my body it doesn't disapper, it
can't, remember, you cannot destroy energy or matter..
it simply converts into something else......

as I age, my body will continue to suffer from entropy,
the loss of energy from my systems......... and at some
point, the loss of energy from my systems will be enough
to cause the loss of life, my life......... we die from a loss
of energy...........if disease or if accidents or something like that
doesn't kill us first......

I have nowhere near the energy I had when I was young....
I am old... I get tired easily...... my body can no longer hold
or store energy like it once did...........

and that is the story of life.... the physical systems of the physical
body loses energy and when enough energy is lost, the body dies....

but that energy cannot disappear... the energy from my system energy loss
goes back into the overall system... as energy or heat or matter... but it
returns to something outside of us...…

so the human body is really just a system, an energy system
that exchanges energy with the outside..... energy comes into
a body in some form, be it energy, heat or matter, and then
leaves the body in some form...be it energy or heat or matter

we are energy taking form and we receive energy and we
release energy..... so we are a system within a system within
a system...…..

all the matter and energy created at the beginning of time,
still exists in some fashion, it cannot be destroyed...
it can only be converted into something.....
so we have energy converted into matter and that
matter being converted into energy...…and back and forth...
a system is simply a matter/energy conversion machine....
as matter and energy get converted into each other by
various means.... the sun, the human body, burning a branch...…

suppose, just suppose the system was disrupted by something....
the system was not continuous, but intermittent..... we would
have systems failure...… so we must continuously have
this conversion of matter and energy at all times...……..

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:09 pm

ok, all this is fine and well, and I "FEEL" that you are most
likely wrong, but what does this have to do with anything, Kropotkin?

Uh, everything...…

this explans the failure of politicans and political parties and
most explanations of the universe.......

and why communism is a better understanding of the universe
then capitalism.....WHAT? WHAT in god's name are you babbling about
Kropotkin?

politicans don't understand the universe or understand
our society in terms of systems......they attack every problem
as if it is a separate problem from every other problem.....

NOPE, every single system is connected to every other system......
thus poverty is connected to our use of energy to our institutions
to our method of electing politicans..... every system is connected
to every other system and this explains why we don't have success
in our social or political programs.....

because the, the "solutions" and the "problem" is considered to be
separate from other systems/problems/solutions.......

we consider for example, immigration as a separate and distinct
issue, which requires one distinct and separate solution....

but the system of people moving from one location to another
is a system which has its own moving parts... and you must address
those moving parts before you can address "immigration" as an issue....

in other words, politician have failed because they don't consider
something like immigration as a whole system, part of another system
which is part of another system which is part of another system...….

we must address something like immigration as an entire
system, not as a individual and separate part...……..

and so why is communism a better example of understanding then
capitalism? because at least communism treats matter and energy,
which is what we are, as part of an overall system....
communism says, that the underlying aspect of human existence
is economic, the substructure as Marx called it...…
he treats human existence as part of a system which is what we are...…

but don't make the common mistake of thinking of human beings
as only part of a system..... we are also creatures of
existentialism...…… we feel and we hurt and we love
and we hate and we have all those messy emotions of human beings..

and we can have those emotions and still exist as matter/energy
beings that intake and outtake energy and matter...……

for the two principles don't exclude each other...….

and for the 64,000 dollar question, how do we connect
values and all this talk of energy/matter?

any thoughts?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:43 pm

OK, let us take this alleged solution to immigration..
building the wall...……

this rather dumb and idiotic "solution" doesn't solve jack
and it certainly doesn't solve the immigration problem
why? because it doesn't solve the overall issue that
causes immigration... the solution to immigration must
be part of an overall strategy or overall understanding of the
systems that create immigration in the first place....

if for example, you have people fleeing Honderas to escape
violence and gangs, to solve the question of people fleeing
to the United States, immigration to the U.S. you must solve
the question of violence and gangs in Honderas, so people won't
immigrate to the U.S from Honderas.....solve that system
and you solve that part of the equation, immigration from
Honderas...... it doens't involved doing anything in the U.S
at all, but it does mean helping Honderas solving their problems

so, the new paradigm is really this.... if I want to solve
my problems, I am faced with solving your problems....
we are connected as in connected as in a system is connected...
we are Venus and Honderas is Mars and Russia is Earth and we are
connected as any system is connected and if one thing affects
one part of the system, it affects every single part of the specific
system and the overall system.....

this is true of any "problem" or any "solution" or any system......
all systems are connected and all systems must have solutions
that equally work for every system or any given system might
face a loss of energy which might lead to a systems failure....

for example, the complete loss of a government in say, Yemen,
means that the system we know as Yemen doesn't have the energy
to create an government....we have a working an orderly government
because we have a system, a governmental system that exists
like human beings, it intakes energy and outtakes energy...…
if we reduce the amount of energy going into a government, then
we risk a partial or total systems failure...…… and here, here is
why the conservative "solution" of less government fails..... to have
a government small enough to drown in a bathtub is to create failure
in government which leads to failure of our society and failure in
our culture because government and society and culture are
part of and different systems... each system is connected to each other....
killing government just means killing one very important aspect of society
which kills the culture and kills every other single system within the U.S....

to maintain America, means we must put energy into government
and energy into society and energy into culture, for each is another
aspect of both individual systems and part of the overall system
we call the United States of America...……………..

we now see the value of government and the value of systems
and the value of our own lives...…. but what of values?

we drive the systems with our values.... if we offer love
as our value, that will better help our various interconnected
systems to continue to exists.... for love is a form of energy,
a positive form of energy..... and that stabilizes, put into a system
energy that allows a system to maintain itself..... for a basic understanding,
a system, any system to exist and continues to exists, is by
the exchanging of energy and matter as we exchange and use
energy and matter...… every single system has this in common,
the exchange and use of energy and matter...……. so we must maintain
the exchange and use of energy and matter into every system to allow
that system to continue its existence.....if we fail to do so, the system
will begin system failure until enough energy is put into the system
to save it or it dies from lack of energy/matter...…….

so building a wall doesn't contribute to this energy/matter problem/
solution of our present system..... but, but putting energy/matter
into Honduras will help our present system.... because it puts energy/matter
into a connected system to ours and that benefits both systems as we are
connected.....

every so called problem requires an overall look at the entire system before
any solution can be found...…………..

so from a systems understanding we can better solve our current
issues and problems...……

did I mention that building a wall is a really, really stupid idea?
and only a lost and confused people would think that it is a good idea.....

Just checking.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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