## philosophy in film

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### Re: philosophy in film

Molly's game is poker. And her game attracted any number of celebrities, high rollers and corporate executives. And then, over time, this attracted the Russian mob.

And we know all this because Molly's game is based on a true story. Molly Bloom's story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molly_Bloom_(author)

A rather extraordinary life to say the least.

Anyway, Molly's game was eventually busted by the FBI. Why? Because, along with the Russian mob, gambling itself is construed by different people in different ways. And while in some parts of the world it is all perfectly legal, in other parts it's not. Even within any particular country there conflicting jurisdictions.

And the laws here are often all over the board. What exactly can you do and what exactly can't you do? Even the lawyers themselves can be flummoxed at times.

Anyway, gambling it seems is a pursuit that some take to in a big, big way. It can take over their life. It can steer it in any number of ominous directions. It can even destroy it. Whereas, for folks like me, I don't get it. I've never been attracted to it all. And I really don't understand the mentality of those who are. And I'm not alone:

Jessica Chastain knows very little about gambling and has no interest in it. IMDb

And then the part where gambling gets intertwined in a post modern technology the authorities now have access to. Who really knows what information can be garnered from what device.

A lot of narrating here. And while some will find it annoying, I rather enjoyed it. Not much you won't learn about the world of high-stakes poker. And, as with other worlds of this sort, there are a lot of things that most of us don't really know at all. On the other hand, as a few reviewers point out, the movie is really just a "dumbed down" version of the book.

IMDb

Molly Bloom is banned from Canada because she pleaded guilty to a federal crime in the United States. She was granted a 48-hour pass to visit Canada for the movie's premiere at TIFF. Ironically, the film was shot in Canada.

According to Molly Bloom, the most money she'd ever seen lost in a card game session in one night was $100 million. The losing player settled the debt the following day. All of the extras in the card games are professional poker players. First-time director Aaron Sorkin wanted realism, right down to the way players handled cards during games. The amount of money that the FBI took from Molly, and the fine she paid, was substantially larger in the movie. trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4209788/tr ... tt_trv_trv at wiki: https://youtu.be/Vu4UPet8Nyc trailer: https://youtu.be/Vu4UPet8Nyc Molly's Game [2017] Written and directed by Aaron Sorkin Molly [voiceover]: A survey was taken a few years ago that asked 300 professionals one question: "What's the worst thing that can happen in sports?" Some people answered losing a Game 7. And other people said getting swept in four. Some people said it was missing the World Cup. But one person answered that the worst thing that can happen in sports was fourth place at the Olympics. This is a true story, but except for my own, I've changed all the names and I've done my best to obscure identities for reasons that'll become clear. ... Molly [voiceover]: I have a BA in Political Science from the University of Colorado where I graduated Summa Cum Laude with a 3.9 GPA. The median L-SAT score at Harvard Law School is 169. My score: 173. ... Molly [voiceover]: When I was 12 years old, for no particular reason, my back exploded. Less than ten minutes later, I was in the back of an ambulance. I had what's called rapid onset scoliosis. My spine was curved at 63 degrees and I'd need a 7-hour surgical procedure that involved straightening my spine, extracting bone from my hip, fusing 11 vertebrae together and fastening steel rods to the fused segments. ... Molly [voiceover]: My boots are basically welded to my skis. Right...so how does this happen? It happened because I hit a pine bough that had become frozen in the snow. And I hit it so precisely that it simply snapped the release of my bindings. Right in that moment, I didn't have time to calculate the odds of that happening because I was about to land pretty hard on my digitally remastered spinal cord which is being held together by spare parts from an Erector Set...None of this has anything to do with poker. I'm only mentioning it because I wanted to say to whoever answered that the worst thing that could happen in sports was fourth place at the Olympics...seriously, fuck you. ... Larry [Molly's father interviewing her as a child]: Who are the heroes or heroines in your life? Who uh, who do you really respect? Molly: I don't have any heroes. Larry: You don't have any heroes. Molly [voicover]: How's this for hubris? I don't. Because if I reach the goals I'd set out for myself, then the person I become, that'll be my hero. Even by teenage girl standards, I would appear to be irrationally angry at nothing in particular. It would be another 22 years before I'd find out why. ... Molly [voiceover]: Like I said, the day started by being about bagels. But that would abruptly change. Dean: My weekly poker game's moved to the Cobra Lounge. Tomorrow night and then every Tuesday night. You'll help run it. Take these names and numbers. Tell 'em to bring 10 grand in cash for the first buy-in, the blinds are 50-100. ... Molly [voiceover]: I'd regarded Dean as a nitwit when I regarded him at all. But on that pad were nine names along with phone numbers of some of the most wealthiest and most famous people in the world. ... Molly [voiceover]: I'd just finished counting out$90,000 in cash. I was in a room with movie stars, directors, rappers, boxers. They were going all-in all the time, burning through their buy-ins over and over. I Googled every word I heard that I didn't know. Flop, river, fourth street, tilt, cooler, boat, nuts...

...

Charlie [a lawyer]: I read your indictment after I got your call last night and I bought your book. I'm only on page 112, but Molly, did you commit a felony and then write a book about it?
Molly: I haven't run a game in two years. Not to spoil the ending, but that's when the government raided my game and took all of my money, assuming all of it was made illegally which it wasn't.

...

Charlie: Have you seen the other names in your indictment? Nicolas Koslovsky, Peter Druzhinsky, Peter Antonovich, the Gershen brothers, I mean, come on, Molly, just how deep into the Russian mob were you? Because your book doesn't say.

...

Molly: I've never hurt anyone in my life.
Charlie: Your friends have.
Molly: I've never heard of 90 percent of the names in the indictment.
Charlie: And the other 10 percent?
Molly: I didn't know they were connected. I had no idea who they really were.

...

Charlie [to Molly]: We regularly lend out our best litigators like me to the ACLU, Southern Poverty Law Center, veterans groups, but I don't think I can convince my partners to take a flyer on the Poker Princess.

...

Molly [voiceover]: The game had regulars and the game had guests. And four of the regulars were famous actors. And I'm gonna call one of them Player X. Player X subscribed to the belief that money won was twice as good as money earned. He lived to beat people and take their money.

...

Molly [voiceover]: Player X was the best player at the table and tonight this guy was the worst. He's staring at his cards. Even a reasonably good amateur would know it was mathematically the best hand which in poker is called the nuts. There was $47,000 in the pot and the guest was holding the nuts but he was starting to get confused because a movie star was talking to him. ... Molly [voiceover]: A fish is a particular kind of player. A fish has money. A fish plays loose and doesn't fold a lot. A fish is good but not too good. ... Molly [voiceover]: My job security was gonna depend on bringing Player X his fish. But where would I find people with a lot of money who didn't know how to spend it and liked to be around celebrities? ... Molly [voiceover]: Poker was my Trojan horse into the highest level of finance, technology, politics, entertainment, art. All I had to do was listen. ... Charlie: You extended credit. You're destitute and you leave two and a half million dollars on the street? Molly: I had to. Charlie: Didn't anyone try to buy your debt sheet? Molly: Everyone tried to buy my debt sheet, is this the right time...? Charlie: Why didn't you sell it like you sold your clothes? Molly: I couldn't. Charlie: Why? Molly: I couldn't be sure how they were gonna collect. Charlie: I was afraid you were gonna say that. ... Molly [voiceover]: There was a track star in the 1930's named Matthew Robinson. Matthew Robinson shattered the Olympic record in the 200 at the Berlin Games in 1936. Absolutely shattered the Olympic record...and came in second. The man who came in first was Jesse Owens. Jesse Owens went on to be a legend. Matthew Robinson went on to be a janitor at a whites-only middle school in Pasadena. The difference was four-tenths of a second. As if that wasn't enough, Matthew Robinson had a little brother who was also an athlete. His name was Jackie. ... Larry: What did everyone learn in school today? Molly [as a highschooler]: Uh, I learned that Sigmund Freud was both a misogynist and an idiot and anyone who relies on his theories of human psychology is a quack. Larry: I don't know why you'd say that. Molly: You asked me what I learned in school today. Larry: Is this Mrs. Linwood? Molly: Yep. Larry: Did she happen to mention anything about his work on the unconscious mind? Molly: His dream analysis has the credibility of a horoscope, but what got my attention was that he opposed the women's emancipation movement. He believed that a woman's life is about her reproductive function. Larry: So you're really getting to the nuts and bolts of why middle-class suburban white girls have been oppressed for centuries. Molly: Mrs. Linwood was just teaching us... Larry: Barbara Linwood doesn't like men, Molly. Molly: She doesn't like dicks, Dad, there's a difference. ... Dean: Is he cheating? Molly: No. Dean: How would you know? Molly: I'd know. Dean: He and Diego aren't in bed together? Molly: No. Dean: What about him and you? Molly: A 52 card deck produces hundreds of millions of random patterns but every time one of you loses two weeks in a row, you're sure something fishy's going on? ... Molly: You're gonna stop paying me to do that job because I'm making too much money doing my second job and if I say no I'll lose both jobs because "it doesn't seem fair"? Dean: Business is bad right now. Welcome to the real world. Molly: All right, here it is. Banks are loaning you money and they shouldn't. You're a bad risk, they know it. So the debt service on your loans is close to 20 percent which is crazy. 20 percent is barely survivable if it's a bridge loan but like, for instance, it's taken you ten years to build seven houses, all of which are worth less than they were before you built them because the housing market is on a downward trajectory for the first time in the history of houses and that's why business is doing bad, not because you're paying me$450 a week.

...

Player: Where's Dean?
Molly: I'll be hosting a game in this suite every Tuesday night. If you play tonight, you'll be guaranteed a chair for a year. If you prefer to play at the Cobra Lounge, there'll be no hard feelings.

...

Molly [voiceover]: The game was mine now.

...

Lawyer: Are you taking a rake?
Molly: No.
Lawyer: Then you're not breaking the law. Can I give you some advice?
Lawyer: There's a saying in my business. Don't break the law when you're breaking the law. Molly: What do you mean?
Lawyer: No drugs, no prostitutes, no muscle to collect debts.
Molly: Oh, I don't do anything like that. But you just said I wasn't breaking the law.
Lawyer: Keep it that way, because you don't want to break the law when you're breaking the law.
Molly: Am I breaking the law?
Lawyer: Not really.
Molly: We're able to find out for sure, aren't we? Laws are written down.
Lawyer: You're not taking a percentage of the pot?
Molly: No.
Lawyer: You're running a square game.

...

Player X: Are you fuckin' nuts? Donnie Silverman won the World Series of Poker.
Molly: You can watch it online. He took 11 hands at the final table. But he had the nuts on eight of them. And three of those...three were two-outers with four players still in the hand. He ran hot. He doesn't lock his chips down, he's reckless, he gives tons of action, and he's got 12 million dollars.
Player X: You know, I don't like playing poker.
Molly: Why do you play?
Player X: I like destroying lives. Give him a chair.

...

Molly [voiceover]: Bad Brad had raised 700 million dollars for a fund that traded oil futures. And every week, he came to the game. Lost $100,000 and tipped me$5,000 so he could play the next week. He wasn't getting any better. And the guys were feasting on him.
Brad: Can I get another fifty?
Molly: Can we talk for a second?
Molly: Brad, this game might not be for you.

...

Molly [voiceover]But first...Harlan Eustice. Player X said he met Harlan at the Commerce Casino and that he'd be good for the game but I wasn't seeing what he was seeing. He played tight, folding after the hole cards 64 percent of the time. It wasn't clear where his money came from. He produced backyard wrestling videos and other low-rent productions. But worst of all, Harlan Eustice was a good card player. Why would Player X want someone at the game who could beat him? I'd learn the answer to that one the hard way.

...

Charlie: This is the Russian mafia. And the three are tied together in the indictment through... A poker game.
Molly: Were they tapping my phones?
Charlie: No.
Molly: Thank God.
Charlie: They were tapping the phones of everyone you talked to. They've got you confirming that you ran rake games at the Plaza Hotel and various locations in New York. They've also got a confidential informant confirming that you ran raked games at the Plaza Hotel and various locations in New York. You were in violation of 1955, which is the part of the U.S. Code that makes it illegal to run an illegal gambling business. You know what you did? You finished writing a book before the good part happened.

...

Charlie: I need your hard drives.
Molly: Going back how far?
Charlie: What do you mean?
Molly: Well, I kept my hard drives when I'd buy a new laptop.
Charlie: You're kidding.
Molly: No, it had a record of who owed what and spreadsheets on the players.
Charlie: It has more than that. Every time you charge your phone by plugging it into the computer, the computer takes a record of all your text messages and e-mails.
Molly: My laptop has a record of all text messages and e-mails received years ago on phones that have been smashed with an aluminum bat?

...

Charlie: I want to run forensic imaging on your hard drives.
Molly: Oh, no, thanks anyway, but I'll be destroying those hard drives.
Charlie: Well, you can't do that, they're evidence.
Molly: Well, I'm gonna blow 'em up, I am literally gonna use explosives and scatter the remains in the sea.
Charlie: Except you told me they exist.
Molly: You're gonna have to pretend I didn't tell you.
Charlie: Can't do that.
Molly: Yes, you can.
Charlie: You were the one who wanted a lawyer that wasn't even a little bit shady.
Molly: New information has come to light, now I see that that was stupid. There are no hard drives.
Charlie: If you destroy evidence and obstruct justice on top of the charges already brought against you in this case, you will be, I promise, incarcerated.
Molly: You don't understand what's in those text messages.
Charlie: I understand you've had boyfriends and there'll be some exchanges that are a little bit, you know, embarrassing.
Molly: I don't care about embarrassing text messages from boyfriends as there's not left a small corner of my private life that isn't available for public scrutiny. There are messages that would destroy other lives. There are messages that would end careers and obliterate families. f those text messages were to be made public,
Charlie: They won't be.
Molly: If they were...
Charlie: They won't be.
Molly: ...it would be catastrophic for many people.
Charlie: I'm a lawyer. I'm legally...listen to me...I am legally prohibited from disclosing anything...
Molly: Someone leaked my last deposition to the National Enquirer, Charlie.

...

Molly [after Charlie tooses her his phone]: What is this for?
Charlie: It's got every text message and e-mail I sent in the last year as well as a variety of incriminating evidence about my clients. Now, if anything of yours gets leaked, you can sell my phone to the highest bidder and I'll lose my job and get disbarred.
Molly: So, in order to demonstrate the sanctity of your attorney/client confidentiality, you're betraying the confidentiality of all your other clients.
Charlie: I know you're not gonna look at it.
Molly: How do you know?
Charlie: I don't know.

...

Molly [voiceover]: I liked Harlan. But nobody else like him except Player X. He played tight, didn't give a lot of action and always got his money in good which means he was running the odds. In other words, he was playing poker and the others were gambling. And he won. By midnight, Harlan had tripled his original $50,000 buy-in but everything came off the rails with one hand. And that's how it happens. That's how you go full tilt. Harlan, the best player at the table, the best player at most tables, was about to get bluffed off the win by, of all people, Bad Brad. How? Because Harlan had never played with Brad before and didn't know yet that Brad was bad. Harlan's got a boat, nine's full. Brad's got nothing but his pre-flop betting made it look, entirely accidentally, like there was a chance he had pocket kings, which, if true, would give him the better full house. Brad's counting off 20 thousand which means he's gonna call and Harlan knows that if Brad's gonna call and not raise it means he didn't have the boat and he's betting a high two-pair, probably kings and queens. But then instead of calling the bet, Brad pushes 72 thousand dollars into the pot. Harlan looks a Brad. Every tell Harlan knows about, carotid artery pumping, stiff hands, Brad's doing the opposite. Brad's betting had represented a huge hand by calling on the flop, check-raising the turn and bombing the river. Of course, Harlan didn't know that Brad didn't know what any of that meant. So Harlan, always a good sport, said, Nice bet. I'm laying this down. As he tossed in what he didn't realize was the winning hand. Brad tosses in his cards too and one of them flips over and Harlan sees... Harlan: You didn't have pocket kings? Brad: I didn't have any kings. Except the one in the middle. Harlan: You had two pair? Brad: I had one pair, the nines in the middle. ... Molly: You're on tilt. Everybody knows it. You're playing without the weapons you need to win. Harlan: You're right. Just give me 500,000. I just gotta get back to even. Molly [voiceover]: That should be the second line of every gambler's obit. "Mr. Feldstein died while trying to get back to even." Harlan never did. You can say that again. Player X: I think we should talk about capping your tips. Molly: You want to get together with the other players, who on my tax return are called clients, and discuss putting a ceiling on my wages? Player X: That's right. Molly [voiceover]: Right there, right then, that fast, I lost the game. It was the next Tuesday, game night. He waited until he knew I'd be on the way to the hotel and then sent me a text. It said, "We're playing at Dave's tonight. No need to show up." And I knew the truth even before I answered the call that came next. Player X [on the phone to Molly]: You are so fucked. ... Molly: I'm refusing you permission to seek a minor role reduction. I'm refusing you permission to invalidate my entire career. I built a successful... Charlie: Hey, do you want kids? You interested in having a family? Molly: Very much. Charlie: I don't get you some point reductions and the sentencing recommendation guidelines say 8 to 12 years and that's before they try to jam you up more for money laundering. Molly: Money laundering? Are you... Charlie: The moment you changed the Russians' money for chips. Molly: I would've had to have been aware where the money was... Charlie: Find me 12 men and women who'll believe that you weren't aware of exactly who was sitting at your table and where their money came from. So, that's it. You were a cocktail waitress. ... Molly [voiceover]: When I lost the L.A. game, I told myself it was no big deal. It was just supposed to be an adventure and a way to meet influential people. And I'd saved over$200,000. But that was just a weak firewall I'd hastily built to keep out the humiliation and depression I knew was coming. It had to end sometime. I just thought it would be on my time. The game had given me an identity, respect, and a defined place in a world that was inaccessible and in one irrational heartbeat it was taken away. I was irrelevant and forgotten overnight. It'd been two weeks since I lost the game and I made an appointment to see someone because now the humiliation and depression had given way to blinding anger at my powerlessness over the unfair whims of men. It was that there weren't any rules. These power moves weren't framed by right and wrong, just ego and vanity. Selfish whims with no regard for consequence. No fairness, no justice. And that giggling, cackling call from Player X. You are so fucked. I couldn't lose to that green-screened little shit and I didn't want a therapist to make me feel okay about it. You know what makes me feel okay about losing? Winning. I got on a plane to New York.

...

Molly [voiceover]: Wall Street, Madison Avenue, Fifth Avenue, the Dakota, the San Remo... the players were here, I just had to bait the hook. This time, I didn't have movie stars. This time, I used Playboy Playmates.

...

Molly [voiceover]: We couldn't promise anyone they'd rub elbows with movie stars. But New York has one thing Hollywood doesn't. The Yankees. And there was one Yankee in particular that every man in America would line up to lose to.

...

Molly [voiceover]: It took only seven weeks of recruiting to get ten players and seven on a waiting list. And in these circles, that was more than enough to start the mythology. By morning, gamblers would be telling and hearing stories about this game in London, Tokyo, and Dubai. All in. At the end of that year, I reported an income of four million, seven hundred and seventy-three thousand dollars. Every square inch of it legal and on the books. I was the biggest game runner in the world. All tips. I still hadn't taken a rake. And I still hadn't accidentally recruited members of a Russian crime syndicate.

...

Molly [voiceover]: Casinos had discovered that certain scents make people more likely to place big bets. The casinos pump those scents in through the ventilation. I had custom candles made.

...

B: Your exposure's crazy. It's not if, it's when. You're gonna get blown up. Your risk is nuts.
Molly: If I took a rake, this game would no longer be legal.
B: And if you can't cover, this game will no longer exist. You're the bank now. You're guaranteeing the game.

...

Molly [voiceover]: There was now 3 million dfollars on the table. B was right, I was extending credit, big numbers. And it's not like Harlan Eustice hadn't already put the fear of God into me. If I couldn't pay, one time, that'd be the end of the game. I was the house. That's how quickly I made the decision. And just as quickly, B calculated two percent of the pot and took it off the table. That was it. I'd just taken a rake, in violation of U.S. Criminal Code 1955.

Cue the Russians?

Molly [voiceover]: People have asked, "Wasn't there any way to tell that some of the players at your game are connected to one of the darkest, deadliest, and far-reaching organized crime syndicates in the world?" No. There wasn't.

...

Charlie: The government is expressing an interest in you being a cooperating witness.
Molly: You don't say. Who could have possibly seen that coming? Let's have the conversation. It'll be short because I don't know anything at all that can help them.
Charlie: You don't know anything that can help them convict the Russians but you know things that can help them.
Molly: Did you know that 97 percent of federal cases never make it to trial? Even though the chances of being convicted at trial is a little more than one in a hundred.
Charlie: If you want to go to trial, that's fine but it's gonna cost you in the area of three and a half million dollars.
Molly: Which the Justice Department knows I don't have because they took all of my money in a civil forfeiture which they can do without a warrant because my property doesn't have a presumption of innocence. Then after I'm arrested by 17 agents holding automatic weapons, totally necessary and not at all meant to intimidate me, I'm given two days to hire a lawyer and appear in a courtroom on the other side of the country.
Charlie: If you are saying that everything that happens from the moment you are arrested is designed to persuade you to plead guilty, you are correct.

...

Charlie: So, to be clear, you're not interested in entering a cooperation agreement with the prosecutors.
Molly: If I had testimony that would lead to the conviction of a bad guy, no one would have to coerce me into cooperating. But I don't. I have dirt. I have dish. I have gossip. So my value to the prosecution is exactly the same as it is to Hollywood. I'm here to ensure the New York Post covers the trial. I'm here to sell tickets.

...

Molly [voiceover]: I felt like I was in a hole so deep, I could go fracking. It didn't feel like depression, it felt more violent. I was tired of living in the frat house I'd built for degenerates. I was tired of the greed-- mine, not theirs. Everybody's. I was sick of being high all the time. I was sick of living in the gray area. I couldn't recognize myself and what I recognized, I couldn't stand.

...

Russian mob thug [to Molly after beating her up]: It wasn't an offer they made. It wasn't a suggestion. This'll be your only reminder.

...

Molly [voiceover]: I couldn't call a doctor or go to an E.R. They'd take one look at me and call the police. My eyes were swollen and black. my lips were cut and bloody. I couldn't feel my face.

...

...

Larry [to Molly]: You tripped over a stick. Okay? Twelve years ago you tripped over a stick. It was a one-in-a-million thing. You tripped over a stick. That's what you did wrong.

...

Charlie: There's a new offer on the table. We hand over the hard drives. We hand over the forensic imaging of the e-mails and texts in exchange for uh...
Molly: What could they possibly offer for me to do that?
Charlie: Your money back. They'll give you all your money back plus interest. It's over 5 million dollars.
Molly: Is that why they took it in the first place? So they could offer it back to me?
Charlie: Yeah. For what it's worth, if we went to trial you'd have to hand over the forensic imaging in discovery.
Molly: But that's different from voluntarily handing it over.
Charlie: Sure, but it's not really voluntary anymore when the alternative is prison. And that's what they're gonna recommend, 42 months.
Molly: Why do you keep breaking eye contact with me?
Charlie: I-I'm looking right at you.
Molly: You think I should do it.
Charlie: You gotta let me keep you out of prison.
Molly: You've seen what's on those hard drives.
Charlie: Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot more than a little color. Yeah, but complete immunity. All right? You get all your money back. You'll be the first defendant to walk out of a courtroom better off than when you walked in.
Molly: Careers will be ruined. Families. Wives, lives on both coasts...
Charlie: Hey, when a rich guy goes to jail he spreads his money around. His-his lawyer knows how to take care of that. He spreads his money around. You don't have any! The composition of female inmates in federal prison...they did not commit financial crimes. They're drug dealers. They get raped by prison guards. You...you will not be anonymous, Molly. You will be a target!
Molly: Children will read their father's text messages saying he wished he'd never had kids. Charlie: These guys...These guys, where are they? Why are you in this alone? Where are your friends? Where is the one guy saying, "Hey, you know, Molly, I know you're doing everything to save my life, what can I do for you? Let me buy you a sandwich. Where are they, Molly?" You kept their secrets. Where are the people you're protecting by not telling the whole story in the book, by settling the Brad Marion suit, by not taking five million dollars of your own money, by going to jail? Where did everybody go?!

She doesn't buy it. Why? To protect her good name.

Judge: Understanding everything you've been told, do you now wish to enter a plea?
Molly: Yes, sir.
Judge: How do you plead to the charge?
Molly: Guilty, Your Honor.

...

Molly [voiceover]: And then something happened.

...

Judge: Would the defendant please rise for sentencing.
[Molly stands]
Judge: Based on all available information, this court manifestly disagrees with the government's sentencing recommendation. This courthouse is located within spitting distance of Wall Street. I know this from my personal experience trying to spit at it. The men and women who work there will commit more serious crimes by lunchtime today than the defendant has committed in this indictment. I simply don't see how either the people or the cause of justice are served by locking Molly Bloom in prison...Ms. Bloom, this court sentences you to two hundred hours of community service, one year of supervised probation, drug testing and a two hundred thousand dollar fine. This case is adjourned.

...

Molly [voiceover]: And that was that. It was crying and hugging, jokes from my brothers. Tough talk about how no one messes with the Blooms and level-headed talk about Christmas miracles. Steaks and beer bought by my father and full reenactments. And in the middle of it all, as grateful as you are, the reality starts creeping toward you like the tide. And that's the first time you have the thought... "What do I do now?"

...

Molly [voiceover]: I'm a felon. I'm 35 years old, unemployed, and pled guilty in a mob indictment. I owe the government close to two million dollars in taxes assessed on the civil forfeiture plus the two hundred thousand dollar fine. And you better believe they're gonna come get it. I have a quarter of a million dollars in legal bills. I don't know what I'd say in a job interview, or if I'll ever be given a job interview. And for some reason, I'm not allowed to go to Canada.

...

Molly [voiceover]: Did anything good come of this? Not really. But I learned something encouraging. I'm very hard to kill. Winston Churchill defined success as The ability to move from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm. So, I guess I'm pot-committed.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
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### Re: philosophy in film

What seems like centuries ago, I toyed with the idea of becoming a "Maoist". So, as a consequence, I was ever keen on figuring out how life actually did unfold for "the ordinary people" who were embedded both historically and existentially in the revolutionary upheals unfolding in China back then.

Well, as they say, that's all over. China today [politically] may well still basically be in the hands of an autocratic few, but the economy [like the social interactions] is anything but what it once was "back then".

It appears that the "cultural revolution" has given way [almost unimaginably] to a rendition of "state capitalism" that some argue will soon become the dominant economy around the globe.

So, naturally, I'm curious once again to understand what life might be like for the "ordinary people" now that these enormous changes continue to reconfigure what I once thought was into what I think might be now.

In Old Stone, "a Chinese taxi driver finds himself plunged into a Kafkaesque nightmare where no good deed goes unpunished...in a society rife with bone-chilling callousness and bureaucratic indifference."

On the other hand, as with Daniel Blake's travail in England above, is the ordeal endured by Lao Shi in China basically a snapshop of the world to come for all of us? Is this the path we are all headed down? And how typical is this sort of thing in modern day China?

Stil, as with Daniel Blake, in turn, it's just a single snapshot of a particular narrative revolving around a particular context. So, by and large, we will generally take out of it only that which we first put into it: our own unique sense of reality.

Here's how one reviewer [Manohla Dargis] reacted:

His first mistake is reporting the accident; his second is trying to help the bleeding victim instead of splitting. No good deed goes unpunished in this vision of contemporary China, a dog-eat-dog world in which the strong don’t just consume the weak, they also suck the marrow out of every last bone.

What else is there until someone is able to tell us definitively that which all "rational and virtuous" men and women are obligated to think and to feel.

Until then, we're on our own.

This is basically the story of an honest and decent man who tumbles down into a set of circumstances that reconfigures him into something altogether different. Then it's only a matter of asking yourself, "what would I have done?"

And this is also a world in which, yet again, as with Daniel Blake above, Lao Shi's own unique set of circumstances [as a teeny tiny individual] get dumped into a labyrinthian procession of one or another official "procedures".

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Stone
trailer: https://youtu.be/1CGfmjazFz4

Old Stone [Lao Shi] 2016
Written and directed by Johnny Ma

Doctor: We need to get him registered first so we can perform surgury. The cashier is over there.
Lao Shi: But isn't this covered by insurance?
Doctor: Hurry!

...

Sign on the wall in the hospital: HAVE YOU SMILED TODAY?

...

Cashier: It's 234 rmb for this bill. And this one is 12,340 rmb.
Lao Shi [shocked]: how can it be so expensive.
Cashier: The surgery alone is over 8,000. And the emergency room is 1,000.

He may as well live in America.

Lao Shi [to the police]: I was driving, and I had a passenger who was very drunk. He grabbed my arm all of a sudden causing me to swerve. That's how I hit the motorcycle.

...

Police: It's against procedure to leave the scene before we've arrived.
Lao Shi: I had no choice. The doctor said he would have died if I had been any later.

...

Wife: What's wrong? You've been acting strange all day.

...

Insurance agent: Normally the driver should report the accident to the company as soon as possible. Then the company reports to us. That's the procedure. Now, the most important thing is the police accident report.
Lao Shi: I tried to save someone. I didn't have time to wait for some report.
Taxi company official: We have our procedures, so does the insurance company. They can't just pay if we don't follow the right procedure.
Insurance agent: Mr. Shi, without the accident report, we cannot know if the man's injuries are from the accident or from you driving him to the hospital. How do we know if it's our responsibility to pay?
Lao Shi: What are you saying, that I hurt him by helping him?!

So, it's all about the money there too. And now the guy on the motorcyle is in a coma. With bills mounting everyday.

Captain: What's that?
Lao Shi [holding a phone]: Someone left it in the cab. I think it belongs to that drunk guy I picked up the other day.

...

Wife: So what were you doing at the hospital today?

...

Wife: My husband is a taxi driver, and he had an accident a few days ago. He took the guy directly to the hospital and didn't wait for the police to arrive. These are the hospital bills. We've been paying for everrything so far.
Lao Ma [a lawyer]: This is not a nice thing to say, but if he had died at the scene, this would be a much easier situation. But now this is a lot more complicated.

...

Wife: How much more have you not told me? What else are you hiding?
Lao Shi: I just didn't want you to worry.
Wife: How did you know their family doesn't have money?
Lao Shi: His wife told me.
Wife: His wife?! What about your own wife?!

...

Wife: So what do you propose we do now?
Lao Shi: I already told them I would pay.

...

Lao Shi: Nurse, I wanted to ask...how often do people in his condition wake up?
Nurse: It's hard to say. Some after a few days, others a few months. But the one on the 9th floor, he's been laying there for five years. Still asleep. The ones who are asleep, they have it easy. It's the ones who are awake that are suffering.

...

Cashier [after swipting Lao Shi's credit card]: It says you don't have enough funds.
Lao Shi: I just used it yeaterday.
Cashier: Do you have another card? It says there are "insufficient funds".

...

Lao Shi [on phone]: What happened to all the money in the account?
Wife: I took it all out. If you're not going to protect this family, I will.

...

Lao Shi: You took my taxi. Do you remember?
Taxi passenger [the drunk who caused the accident]: Taxi? Oh, right...to the airport.
Lao Shi: You were pretty drunk that day.
Passenger: I left my phone in the taxi.
Lao Shi: That's why I'm here, to give it back.
[the man tries to offer him money]
Lao Shi: No, no, no. I didn't bring your phone because of money. I need to talk to you...when you took my cab, we got into an accident. The injured person has been in the hospital all this time, and hasn't woken up. I've been paying the medical bills for months now.
Passenger: How's this my problem?
Lao Shi: You can't possibly forget. You were so drunk that day, and you grabbed my arm, causing me to swerve...
Passenger: I grabbed your arm?
Lao Shi: Yes.
Passenger [aruptly]: Thank you for returning my phone, but I really have to go now, really.

Nope, he's not nearly so foolish as Lao Shi. There's what's true and there's what's in his own best interest.

Passenger: Why are you following me? Even if I was responsible as you say, can you prove it? You go ahead and try.
Passenger: What do you want from me?
Lao Shi: Not much. Just come to the police station with me and make a statement. And I'll never bother you again. Simple as that.

Though not quite as simple [and dumbfounding] as what comes next.

Lao ma [to Lao Shi]: Even though the patient has been discharged from the hospital, his head wounds have not fully healed. His future expense will continue to be your responsibility. If something should ever happen, and you default on your legal obligation to pay then the debt will be transferred to your family. You need to stop dragging them down with you.

Of course all the while we are reacting to this as someone who knows where the truth really lies here.

Man from the motorcycle accident: Where you from? You look kind of familiar.
Lao Shi: Just passing through.

...

Man from the motorcycle accident [yanking off his head bandage]: I'm sick of wearing this all the time just to get an extra bit of money.

...

Man from the motorcycle accident: Help! Help! Murderer! Don't come any closer...stop right there. What did I ever do to you?!

Cue the really grim [and really ironic] ending.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 24650
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

Just as there are arguments regarding the best movie ever made, there are arguments regarding the worst.

And there are a lot to choose from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_f ... _the_worst

And, apparently, The Room might just be that film. But the weird thing is that, over time, some of these films actually become beloved [more pr less] precisely because they are considered to be so bad.

This is a movie about the making of the movie The Room. About all the "weird and mysterious" characters involved. One in particular.

The idea being that just because the powers that be in Hollywood reject you, that doesn't mean the film is not going to be made. And many are able to convince themselves that what they imagine in their head is, if not pure genius, close enough. But then once the film is made you still have to deal with, among other things, the reaction of the audience. And just because you pride yourself on being "independent" doesn't mean that the film won't stink. Still, not every so-called "bad movie" becomes [in the opinion of some] "the cult film equivalent of Citizen Kane".

You know, whatever that means.

In other words, while some might imagine the film will be mocking Tommy Wiseau and The Room, it's actually just the opposite: a celebration of them.

Then it's up to us to decide if it really should have been the other way around.

On the other hand, how many people will there be [like me] who knew nothing at all about either one? I have absolutely no idea how to react to them myself. Tommy sees himself and the world around him from his "very own planet". He's just fucking weird.

For some the film is an all-time classic. But from Tommy's point of view, for all the wrong reasons. So now he has to learn to laugh along with them. Even though he suspects that many of them are really laughing at him.

Look for Tom Cruise. And Tom Berenger. Sort of.

IMDb

To promote the film the distributor rented the same billboard on Highland Avenue in Los Angeles that Tommy Wiseau rented for five years to promote The Room (2003), mimicking the layout of the original billboard and including a phone number to RSVP to screenings.

James Franco spoke like Tommy Wiseau throughout each day's filming, and even directed using Wiseau's distinctive voice and syntax, though Jason Mantzoukas said that Franco did not direct in character and only spoke like Wiseau.

James Franco recalled driving in Los Angeles after 2003 and seeing the giant billboard for the film that Wiseau rented for five years. Franco said he initially thought it might be for a cult, because of the phone number on the billboard.

Tommy Wiseau himself appears in the post credit scene as an invented character named Henry. The scene was written and filmed as one of the conditions for selling his life rights to the film.

In the rehearsal scene of "Waiting For Godot," the director says that it's pronounced "Guh-DOH," not "GOD-oh." However, Samuel Beckett stated that "GOD-oh" is in fact the correct pronunciation, thus the actor was actually correct, though that was in all likelihood not the intent here.

trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3521126/tr ... tt_trv_trv
at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Disaster_Artist_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/cMKX2tE5Luk

The Disaster Artist [2017]
Directed by James Franco

Celebrity narrator: If you were to ask the five best filmmakers in the world right now to make a movie like this... it... it wouldn't even be in the same universe.

...

Celebrity narrator: I was blown away. Like, like three minutes into it, I figure this is the fucking greatest movie I've ever seen in my life.

...

Celebrity narrator: It has withstood, like ten years? And people are still watching a movie and talking about a movie. People aren't doing that about whatever won the Oscar for best picture ten years ago.

...

Celebrity narrators: What genius is behind this? Tommy wanted to break barriers in filmmaking. I think that he had a very clear vision. He is a figure of mystery where, you know, you do wanna learn more about him.

...

Celebrity narrators: Who is this man? Who is this auteur? The kind of sheer ambition of it... is...is in-incredible. The numbers probably prove how unlikely it is that you'll make it. If I had a time machine...I would go back and try and get on that set just to watch and feel what it was like 'cause it has to be...unbelievable.

...

Tommy [moaning and groaning, climbing the wall, writhing on the stage floor]: Stella... Stella... Stella! Stella! Stella! Stella! Stella! Stella. Stella! Stella! Stella! Stella! Don't ever leave me, baby.

...

Tommy: Why you pullin'?
Greg: No, just, you know, none of my friends have a car this nice.
Tommy: 'Cause all your friends little kids.
Greg: You know, I just mean it's expensive, It's nice, that'-that's all.
Tommy: Don't talk about me. What I drive. What I say, what I do. Don't tell anybody. You understand, yeah?
Greg: Yeah. No, I-I won't.
Tommy: 'Kay. And don't look at robot crab. He's shy.

...

Tommy: I don't see point.
Greg: Okay, um. All right, listen, when um, when I... When I get up on stage in front of people... It's like all I could think about is uh... "what if-what if they laugh at me? Or if I embarrass myself?" Mm-hmm. Um, but you, man, you're like fucking fearless! And I just-- I-I wanna feel that too. I just, I want--I want that.

Fearless? Cue the scene in the restaurant.

Greg: Your accent threw me off.
Tommy: What accent?

...

Tommy: I don't want career.
Greg: You don't want a career? I thought that's...
Tommy: I want my own planet.

...

Greg: You know he died just a little bit south of here? I wanna go one day to the crash site. Pay my respects.
Tommy: Why don't we go now?
Greg: Now? Now, Tommy, it's not that close. It's like 300 miles away.
Tommy: 300 mile, who care? We just do it.
Greg: It would take hours, man....Tommy, are you serious?
Tommy: Yeah, I'm serious. Greg, the Dean won't come to you. You have to go to the Dean. Road trip!

...

Woman [at an audition]: Am I hearing an accent?
Tommy: Uh, no, no, what do you mean?
Woman: 'Cause I'm hearing a kinda eastern European accent.
Tommy: Nah, that, uh, that's from New Orleans.
Woman: Where? What?
Tommy: New Orleans, you heard? You know? The Big Easy?
Woman: Oh, New Orleans! I thought, I didn't know what you were saying. Okay, yeah, well... Can we just try to lose the accent?

He sort of loses it.

Tommy: You heard of Konstantin Stanislavski?
Greg: Of course, yeah, he's like the greatest acting teacher of all time.
Tommy: Yeah, and now he Tommy acting teacher. He seen something special in me, you know, maybe you know, I become big star. So I have first class this evening.
Amber: I'm pretty sure Stanislavski's dead.

...

Friend: Fire that fuckin' spooky friend of yours. That fuckin' vampire-lookin' motherfucker. It's like...
Greg: Tommy?
Friend: Who is-who is he?
Greg: He's just-I don't know, he's a friend. He's my roommate.
Friend: 'Cause he's fuckin'...You can't go anywhere with that dude. Hollywood's pussy dries up when you walk in with this dude. I... I... I... They just fuckin' clamp shut like a fuckin'... Hollywood puts on a fuckin' chastity belt around him.

Cue Tommy auditioning Shakespeare in a Hollywood restaurant.

David [a Hollywood producer]: Tommy? Just because you want it doesn't mean it can happen. Okay? It's one in a million, even if you have Brando's talent. It's not gonna happen for you. Okay?
Tommy: Maybe...
David: I'm not saying maybe. I'm saying not in a million years.
Tommy: And after that?

...

Tommy: This town, Greg. They don't want me. They don't understand me. Maybe I don't have what it take.
Greg: Yeah, man, I know what you mean.
Tommy: You do?
Greg: Yeah. My agent won't return my calls, and...all I hear is no all day, every day, it's... it's fuckin' hard, man.
Tommy: Nobody like me, Greg. Nobody give me chance. My whole life.

...

Greg: All right, we said we were gonna push each other. Never give up on our dreams, right?
Tommy: I just don't know how, Greg.
Greg [wistfully]: I wish we could just make our own movie.
Tommy [the light blub turning on]: That great idea.

...

Greg: You finished?
Tommy [slamming The Room script on the table]: It's my masterpiece. Greatest drama since the Tennessee Williams.

...

Tommy: And of course, you play Mark.
Greg: What? You want...you want me to play Mark in this? Hey, big role.
Tommy: Second lead. Yeah, it's a huge role.
Greg: Are you-are you sure?
Tommy: Well, you don't wanna do it, fine. Maybe Johnny Dapp available.

...

Tommy: We don't rent, we buy.
Greg: Is that not normal?
Birns and Sawyer: Industry standard is pretty much that you would rent the equipment because it's so prohibitively expensive to own it.
Tommy: Okay. I said no problem. Okay, I guess we'll buy.
Birns and Sawyer: You wanna shoot 35 or HD?
Tommy: Well, we'll shoot both on this film.
Birns and Sawyer: Digital and film? But you'd need twice the crew, uh, twice the equipment. I mean...they're lit differently. It's just not done.
Tommy: I have vision.
Greg: Tommy, the pioneer, man. He--that's--He wants to go outside the box. It's what he does.

...

Tommy [explaining his "vision" of the movie to the cast and crew]: Okay, everyone gather round. Everyone gather round. Come on, don't be shy....Today our top of mountain day. Today we take first steps on a great journey. After today, which one of ourselves will ever be same? This play work if chemistry between character make sense. Human behavior. Betrayal. It applies to all of us. It's in ourselves. You love someone. What is love? You need to have spirit, hope. Be optimist. But can you handle all your human behavior and behavior of others? Right? Right, see what I'm saying? You don't wanna be good. You wanna be great.

...

Tommy: We do alley scene.
Sandy: This set of the alleyway looks exactly like the real alley out there.
Tommy: That's right. That's what we do in Hollywood movie, right?
Sandy: Well, why don't we just shoot in the real alleyway?
Tommy: Because is real Hollywood movie.

...

Sandy: I'd like to cash this check if uh, possible.
Bank teller: Okay. Uh, is 20's okay?
Sandy: Went through?
Bank teller: Yeah.
Sandy: That is shocking. There's actually money in there?
Bank teller: This account...It's like a bottomless pit.

...

Sandy: Take 67. Action!

...

Sandy: Cut! Oh, God.
[he walks over to Tommy]
Sandy: Uh. Hey, uh... So... the story he's telling you...the one you... yourself wrote...
Tommy: Yeah?
Sandy: It's not a funny story, Tommy. I thought this was a serious scene, Tommy? Why are you laughing?
Tommy: Well, some-sometimes people do crazy things, right? Human behavior.
Sandy: Okay, fair enough. Maybe just get one...where you don't laugh at the story, okay?

Nope, doesn't happen.

Tommy [to no one in particular]: It's human behavior.

...

[Tommy watches himself being discussed on the documentary video]
Raphael: He knows nothing about filmmaking. He's a complete idiot. I don't even think he's seen a movie.
Sandy: Clearly never been on a set before.
Raphael: Have you ever heard of someone producing, directing...
Tommy [to himself]: This guys doesn't know anything.
Raphael: Who gives this guy money?
Sandy: Oh, I don't even wanna get into that, that's something I don't even want to probe.

...

Greg: This is not necessary.
Tommy: No, very necessary. I need to show my ass to sell this movie.
Greg: Maybe uh, at least we have a closed set?
Tommy: Not closed set, open set. Life is not closed set. I want everyone to see. You especially.
Juliette/Lisa: What? Why? What?
Tommy: Brad Pitt do this in "The Legend of the Falls."

...

Greg: What's going on with you?
Tommy: Stanley Kubrick, he nice to actors? Alfred Hitchcock? Let me tell you something, Greg. He do this movie, "Birds."
Greg: Yeah, I'm aware of The Birds.
Tommy: On this movie, he terrify actors. He locked them in room. He throw-he throw birds at them. Real birds! Th-Th-Th... Nasty stuff. The actors, they cry every day. But this movie win every award. Is Mr. Hitchcock bad man? No. He great director.
Greg: Yeah, but he was an asshole. And I bet he didn't direct with his fucking dick out!

...

Juliette: I think you're aiming a little bit high.
Tommy: I aim where I aim. Just do the scene.
Sandy [watching the scene]: Why is he having sex with her belly button? He knows where her vagina is, right?

...

Tommy [to the whole crew]: Where Markus? Markus! This Mar--film now. This Markus, I hire him do documentary "The Making of The Room." He capture every comment. "Oh, yeah, Tommy weird." "Tommy like Frankenstein." "He like, he like vampire rapist." I hear everything. I have ears everywhere. I hear your whispers in your souls. You're on my planet. Okay?

...

Tommy [to camerman]: Make sure you see my ass!

...

Cast member: Hey, Greg. Can we ask you something?
Greg: Yeah.
Cast member: What is this movie about?

...

Tommy: I take you to Los Angeles, give you place to stay. I write you this part. I do this whole movie for you, Greg?....Don't betray me, Greg.
Greg: I'm not betraying you.
Tommy: What I say? We do this together? Now you betray me.
Greg: So, are you gonna let me do it or not?
Tommy: Not up to me, Greg. Up to you. You have to choose. You do this TV show, "Little Malcolm." Or you do the movie. Our movie, Greg.

...

Sandy: Let's go to a bar and erase the memory of today.

...

Tommy: Greg! Dammit, why you throw this tricky stuff?
Greg: All right, man, you wanna get real? You wanna get real for the cameras, let's get real. Hey, you guys gettin' this? Yeah, good. Let's get real. Where were you born, Tommy?
Tommy: No... Greg, that not part of scene.
Greg: Where are you from? It's a simple question.
Tommy: I'm from New Orleans. New Orleans. From the bayou.
Greg: You guys hear that? This guy with this fuckin' accent is from "the bayou."
Tommy: Greg...
Greg: Oh, you want an easier question? Let's see...where does the money come from, huh?
Tommy: Greg, stop! This on camera!
Greg: I know it's on camera just like you wanted. All right, just tell me this one thing...How old are you?
Tommy: I'm your age, Greg.
Greg: You're my age? You're my age?! I'm just your friend....There is no fucking way you're in your 20's, all right? You are a fucking villain! Fucking Frankenstein-looking motherfucker!
Tommy: I not villain!

...

Tommy: You didn't RSVP.
Greg: Yeah, I'm not coming. And...honestly, maybe...maybe you shouldn't have a premiere at all.
Tommy: Greg. We made pact. Remember? To never lose sight of our dream. Well, on Friday... they premiere a movie. Our movie, Greg. In real live theater. I know you don't like me anymore. So don't do it for me. Do it for you, Greg. You'll finally get to see yourself on big screen. This was your dream too, Greg.

...

Raphael [at the movie premier]: That was fucking weird.
Sandy: Yup. At this point, it would be fucking weird if he didn't do something that was fucking weird.

Audience reaction at the premier? Brutal. Really brutal. They are basically howling with laughter.

Greg: Hey, Tommy.
Tommy: They hate it. I know. I know, they're...
Greg: They're just- they're just laughing.
Tommy: Yeah, they're laughing. Laughing at me. Maybe it's true, you know. Maybe everybody right, maybe... Maybe I just big joke. Ha ha.
Greg: Come on, Tommy.
Tommy: I tried to open my heart, show them my soul, and... they just hate me. Even you hate me, Greg.
Greg: Hey, hey, hey. Listen to me, all right? All right, that thing up there? That's your movie. You made that. All right, like you said, you did that all by yourself.

So, is that consolation enough?

Greg [to Tommy]: Maybe it didn't turn out exactly as you hoped. But just listen for a second... Look how much fun they're having. They fucking love it, man....How often do you think Hitchcock got a response like this?

...

Audience [shooting at the screen..the scene where Tommy puts the gun in his mouth]: Do it! Do it! Do it! Do it! Do it! Do it! Tommy! Tommy! Tommy! Tommy! Tommy! Go, man!

Cue the standing ovation.

Tommy [standing up on the stage, the audience cheering]: Okay. Wow. I'm glad you like my comedic movie! Exactly how I intended.

...

Title card: The Room was released in one theater on June 27th, 2003. Tommy paid to keep it there for 2 weeks in an effort to qualify for the Academy Awards. Though the exact figures remain confidential, its production budget is alleged to have exceeded 6 million dollars. It grossed \$1,800 on its opening weekend. It has since gained cult status and turned a profit, regularly playing to sold out midnight screenings around the world. To this day no one knows where Tommy is from. Or where he made his money. Or how old he is.

Title card: Tommy Wiseau and Greg Sestero still speak everyday. They continue to write, act and produce together. They are best know for The Room.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 24650
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
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