cheegster wrote:Also, I was thinking...shall we make it obligatory for any voters to write at least one reason as to their vote?
??? euthenasia is suicide by _______. Having made the choice, it makes no difference who pulls the plug. But we're on the same page - kinda. You don't have to make anyone complicit. It's YOUR decision. All you ask is that they honor the decision YOU have made. They don't have to agree with the decision, just your right to make that choice.Tab wrote:Sure JT - but the issue here is not the right to take your own life, that's suicide. A different fish. Euthanasia is being legally able to cede the final responsibility for taking your life into the hands of another, to which I do not agree. When my brain goes even a little bit loopy, and the doc says "well tab its all downhill from here" I'm going make sure my will is straight, that everyone I care for is provided for, and then shuffle off the mortal coil in as a convivial means as possible, preferably leaving nary a spot on the carpet. I'm damn well not going to put my son, daughter or wife into the position of being complicit with my killing, legal or otherwise.
Tab wrote:People who want to commit suicide kill themselves and leave a note. People who want to talk themselves out of it tell other people about it first. Why would you do it..? You kill yourself after a nice self-congratulatory chat with the family and they are left forever thinking "What could I have done..?" "What could I have said to stop dad wanting to die..?"
I mean what..? Do you hate your kids or something..? To dump that headtrip on them..? It is our duty to protect those we love from that kind of crap remember, even if it is our own crap.
It makes no difference who pulls the plug..? What are you on..? I'm sitting with a gun in my lap.
(a) I pull the trigger.
(b) I call my wife on the phone and have her pull the trigger instead.
No difference..? Seriously..?
The family doesn't have to "help", they just have to stay out of the way.
Hang on till you can't make the decision yourself and force someone to make it for you?
You kill yourself after a nice self-congratulatory chat with the family and they are left forever thinking "What could I have done..?" "What could I have said to stop dad wanting to die..?"
I mean what..? Do you hate your kids or something..? To dump that headtrip on them..? It is our duty to protect those we love from that kind of crap remember, even if it is our own crap.
Which is why depending on euthanasia is cowardice, and suicide is not.
euthenasia is finally an argument over what is best for the individual -vs- everyone else
JT wrote:If suicide is not cowardice, is it bravery? Is the effect on family different should one choose euthenasia over suicide? Would the family feel better about suicide than euthenasia? There is a link here I'm missing, or there is some sort of disconnect? Are you saying that neither euthenasia or suicide is acceptable?
Blurred wrote:until the day she just gave up. She didn't want to be alive anymore, so she quit eating.
Really? Because it seems even more callous to me to sit around watching your loved one in agony, left with no hope for recovery, but no immediate end to the suffering in sight.Tab wrote:Death is never desirable of its own accord, happy, healthy people don't go and shoot themselves in the head. As such neither suicide nor euthanasia are things to be wished for. Both result in the death of the sufferer, but which causes more suffering, is what I'm after with you JT.
You seem to be okay with letting the family in on your death, as long as apparently, they 'respect your decision' and 'keep out of the way'.
But exactly what would you think of a family like that..? "Yeah sure Dad, you go 'head if that's what you want. We'll keep out of the bathroom for an hour or two, okay..? Will that be enough..? Hey Mum, do we have enough Ajax and brillo-pads to scrape Dad's corpse outta the tub or y'wanna I make a run to the store..?"
Seems... Somehow callous to me.
Why not indeed - it all boils down to legalities, doesn' it? Therein lies the rub - the gap between what a living will legally covers and what often happens in reality. A living will is all well and fine as far as it goes - you can elect to have no extraordinary measures taken to keep you alive - but that doesn't help much if you're suffering but live on even without any extraordinary measures.Blurred wrote:until the day she just gave up. She didn't want to be alive anymore, so she quit eating.
Why didn't anyone just smother her with a pillow at some point during that week of starvation..?
Horrible question I know. But apt. It was obvious the old lady wished to kill herself, and yet no-one helped her to. Why not..?
Your family would normally seek to circumvent your desire if you invoke it while still in good health. But that is what I'd consider the fine distinction between assisted suicide and euthanasia: one turns into the other only at the point at which there is no hope for recovery.And always will, because if you have enough braincells left to sit down with them and articulate your designs for a quiet dignified death, then you are still enough 'you' for them to discount the acceptability of your suicide. Do you get this..? While you remain functional and complis-mentis enough to initiate this kind of dialogue with your family they will automatically seek to circumvent your desire. The only point where they will agree that you're no longer worth having around is when you're not, and by that time you will be so fogged and disabilitized that you won't be able to do the job yourself.
Tab wrote:Blurred wrote:until the day she just gave up. She didn't want to be alive anymore, so she quit eating.
Why didn't anyone just smother her with a pillow at some point during that week of starvation..?
Horrible question I know. But apt. It was obvious the old lady wished to kill herself, and yet no-one helped her to. Why not..?
It may be that you aren't trusting family and friends to know you well enough to allow you to make the decision
Tab wrote:If it is your turn to take out the trash, your responsibility, would you leave that trash until it got to the point where it was really stinking your house up and even then tell one of your kids to take it out for you..?
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